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We've been in the LS for about 2 years. Lots of fun, tons of great couples, etc. We've been approached by a bunch of couples asking us about hall passes and we always said no. We told them that it wasn't ever something we'd do. We always thought that they felt like a "date/relationship" vs. just a flirty fun sex thing that we like about swinging. Well, over the past few months we've been hanging out a LOT with another couple. Turns out there is a really strong 4-way connection. It kinds feels like we're falling into a "relationship" with them. We try to get together, the 4 of us, as much as possible, but lately our schedules are tricky. They have expressed the interest in getting together separately and our knee-jerk reaction is: "NO WAY, that's against our hall-pass / dating / doing things together rule!" ... but then we had a realization: We've had a few separate room play times and we've split up at events where two go one way and hang out and the other two go another way and hang out. HOLY CRAP... have we broken our rules and didn't even know it!?!? Are we slipping into polyamory!?!?! We're kinda freaking out. This is VERY new area for all of us and we're not sure how to proceed. The big questions: 1) How emotionally connected should we get with these two? What pitfalls should we be avoiding (either problems with them or between my spouse and I)? 2) Where's the line between swinging and polyamory? I don't even know where the line is between, "Hey, I really like you" vs. "Hey I love you"! 3) Are polyamory and hall-passes / separate private dates tied together or can they be mutually exclusive? Can you be poly and not do separate dates? 4) Do swingers get into poly relationships and continue to "just swing" with other couples? 5) Is this just all a terrible idea and we should go back to just swinging and enjoying fun times together as a two couple group? Looking forward to your thoughts!!!

Hello, this is Petra. There is some news I want to share with the Board. The Background - I have been a member here for about seven years, since shortly after I married David. My ex-fiance, Red has been my boyfriend continuously since before I met David. Our journey has included only a little swinging, mostly me setting David up with my girlfriends, before settling on polyamory about four years ago with one of those girlfriends, Clair. Our foursome includes David, our girlfriend Clair, and me who all live and love together, and Red who lives nearby and is linked only with me. We did eventually open our poly foursome up to swinging with a wonderful couple, Walter and Lora, that had never swung before. We all played except for guy/guy, and as before, Red and Clair. Swinging affected Walter and Lora's relationship to such an extent that they got married. Walter and Lora were regulars with us until they moved to Los Angeles, and now we see them only several times a year. I posted here regularly, although not frequently, until October 2011, when I suddenly stopped, not resuming until this week. The reason is that I had a baby. As hubby and I discussed in the past, my first child would be "pot luck" between him and Red. If the first wasn't David's, the second would be. But there's more to the story. I debated whether I should post this story on the Board, but figured that another data point in life may be useful for others. I'll try to keep it short and relevant, but as Mark Twain said, “I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead.” In October of 2011 Clair told me something was wrong, she didn't feel right. She was tremendously upset; she was afraid she was pregnant. We took the morning off from work and got three different brands of pregnancy test kits at the drug store and confirmed that was the case. We were both on extended oral contraceptives, the kind where you don't have a period. I was stunned, but felt joyous. She told me she was sorry and that she do whatever I wanted. Clair thought I would be upset with her having David's baby, especially before me. I told her I was so happy for her and us, we hugged and cried, and did all those girl things, and took the rest of the day off from work. Then at lunch together we told David he was a father. (A certainty since Red and Clair don't have sex with each other, and with Walter and Lora living in LA, there had been no play with them in over 4 months.) Anyway, that made me realize that for many reasons, this would be the best time for me to start to try to have a baby. After talking with hubby, he agreed that given the stability of our situation, he was indeed willing for me to go "pot luck" the first time with him and Red. And so it started, having sex deliberately to get pregnant, a new experience. And with two men! I always felt there was enough of me to share myself with two men in all senses of the word, that I wouldn't leave either of them lacking for anything, sexual or otherwise. Now, however, I felt conflicted that only one of my guys would actually be the father of my child. I did not have a plan on how to go about it, but the dynamics at the time were that Clair and David became closer, which was good since she had been more than just a sex partner for hubby. I let them spend more nights alone together, and as a result Red and I had more sex more often. Another detail that I've already shared on the Board that becomes important here is that Red cums in huge quantities, so much so that when he ejaculates it streams out the sides between his dick and the walls of my vagina. Even the other guys, David and Walter, in the past have watched in awe as it comes gushing out of my or Lora's pussy, even if Red just has the head of dick in there. David on the other hand, for having such a large penis, doesn't dribble out enough to fill a teaspoon. So between the quantity of semen and the frequency of intercourse, my child would be Red's baby. Another observation: in my Catholic high school days our "family education" as it was called, taught us that practicing birth control would ruin the experience of sexual intercourse with our spouse because you would not be "totally open" to giving your all to your spouse. Yeah, right, like having a baby wouldn't ruin everything else in your life. But now that I was intentionally trying to get pregnant (the purpose of sex after all, since I had almost forgotten) there is something to that lesson. Never before did I feel so "taken," so intimate, so fulfilled with men's orgasms, so much like a woman. I became pregnant with Red's child in January 2012, three and a half months after Clair. Clair and I being pregnant at the same time was a blessing for us women, but I can't say the same for the guys, having to put up with two moody, barfing, demanding women, not available for much fun of any type. But they were great to both of us equally. I was, and am, so proud that both men treated both women with such affection and care regardless of whose baby was whose. There are posts on the Swingers Board about sex during pregnancy, but all I can say for both Clair and me is that sometimes we wanted it badly, and sometimes not at all. I had a bond to each of the other three that was unbelievable. From the way hubby treated my crazy situation in the past, I never had any doubts, but this confirmed hubby's love for me. It also was the time that Clair and I became true lovers. Before it was deep friendship and sort of girl sex as an adjunct to being with a man, but now sex between Clair and me became love. Other than that, nothing changed in our relationship; David, Clair and I live in our house as a family while Red lives a short distance away, and he either visits me at home or I would spend time with him at his house. During our pregnancies, Lora visited us twice with Walter (and we all played), and once near the end alone (the guys were happy to play with her). Did you know that the hospital will only let you have one outside support person in the delivery room? We had to make decisions. For Clair's delivery, it was easy - my darling husband would be there to help and witness the birth of his child with my best friend. For me it was more difficult, it was Red's child, but David is my husband after all. After balancing everything (and me getting my way) I decided that Red was too squeamish, so I chose Clair to be with me during delivery. Clair had her son in July 2012, we call him "Junior." I had my daughter in November 2012, we call her "Petunia" after the nick name my sister gave me. (I hated that name, but it motivated me and filled me with piss and vinegar.) But there is a twist to the story - despite all my certainty, my daughter is David's child too. It was pretty obvious looking at her, but we did the paternity test as well. You would think that Red would have been terribly disappointed, but not at all, not one little bit. He loves both those children as though they are his own (Red said to me, "That child came out of your body, Pet, that's all I need.") David didn't check with me first, but he told Red that next one will be his; I'm glad he did. After the children were born, Clair and I were even more glad we did this together. We all take care of both children, and Clair and I were able to suckle both infants, and share all of the stuff you need for babies. We put a bed in the babies' room so one of us mothers can sleep there when needed. Clair was able to make up for my shortfall of milk. Being small breasted, it was also an advantage to be able to start attempting to breastfeed Junior to get things going before I delivered Petunia. I don't know if you think it's intimate or sexy, but as part of our love-making during that time, Clair and I have gotten into bed held one another and drank from each other. I almost hate to say it, but I've been truthful with David, that if I had only one of them, it would be Clair. But mostly it's been diapers (breast milk poop isn't bad at all, formula poop stinks, and baby food poop is nasty), cribs, baby buggies, car seats, doctors appointments, and lots and lots of satisfaction. The big, BIG downside to this whole thing is my family. Actually, just my parents. Really, just my father. He is a Godly man and was pissed when I was engaged to Red and started living with him. (I told Dad I was getting married, and I did, I just ended up marrying David instead.) Mom was always worried that David would leave me because Red was always around and worried that David would find out that Red and I "had been sexual" and punch him or something. They couldn't imagine. It was also difficult for my parents to understand how I could have my friend Clair living with hubby and me, staying there even when I was out of town (they offered to let her stay with them). After I became pregnant, I visited my folks, told them the entire truth (including my misconception that I was having Red's baby), and Dad threw me out before I finished. Mom has warmed up to the grandchildren, Dad's still pissed. Well finally, we have toddlers now, both of us women have gotten back into some semblance of being in shape, had IUDs put in while we were nursing and have something of normal life again. We both hate having periods, and since we have ended breast feeding we've both gone back on oral contraceptives that have shut those down. One thing that reassured both Clair and I is that Walter and Lora still find us sexually desirable and still play with us on occasion, so that is a big ego boost. All four of us are glad that we are in this poly situation because it is easier to raise the kids and makes it possible to be, at least a little, in The Lifestyle. Writing this while on a business trip far, far from home, I sleep well at night knowing that there are other three parents to take care of my babies, and that Clair and hubby have each other's arms at night. When I'm tired and overwhelmed, I hallucinate that Junior and Petunia are both my children and Red is Petunia's father. Sometimes Clair and I will be sitting on the couch holding our babies and just start crying uncontrollably and hug each other. Oh, and if you look at my profile, you will notice I turned thirty not long ago.

Count this to either being new or nosey - How many active relationships do people maintain? Do most people keep only 1 or 2 couples in their black-book or do you keep more? As an add on, if you keep multiples, what kind of time passes between experiences?

I was wondering; given most swingers do not delve too much into the poly world due to the emotional attachments, are there any couples that might be interested in a light polyfidelity relationship? What I mean by light-polyfidelity-swinging, is where two or more couples agree to be sexual with only those in the group. The ideal group would consist of 5 to 8 couples. There would be no expectation of love, only friendship. The goal would be to provide a safe, comfortable environment where all persons could be completely open and free to live out their fantasies. That would be the other goal; for each person in the group to be able to have any fantasy brought into reality. I know ours are elaborate with lots of role play. WE could only imagine trusting very close friends in order to have these. Another reason for this type of group would be for new swingers that have not had an experience. You could slowly get to a level where you could lift your boundaries and feel comfortable. After you have overcome your fears and gained some experience, you could then go about a normal swinger existence. OK, so is this idea crazy???

Does anyone ever get frustrated? I know similar topics have come up about this and maybe I am just posting to rant..lol. But we are feeling extremely frustrated in finding people. I have been actively bi for a little over 2 years and hubby and I have decided to try swinging (a few attempts, noted in another post). Now our biggest problem (and maybe it's something to do with us being new to swinging) is that we are looking for a couple that we can "play" with on a on-going basis, exclusively. But it just seems everyone we have met so far is more into one-night stands. My questions are: 1) Is "this couple" as rare as single bi-females looking for couples. 2) Does everyone start out looking for this? 3) Could it be us? Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions.