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We are really tight with J's family (parents and sister). Almost daily calls to just chat about stuff. (No, we aren't real sucks, they are just funny smart people that we enjoy.) When asked "what are you doing on Saturday/did you do on Saturday" we just used to say we went dancing. Used to name a club downtown. The problem now is her sister thinks it would be great to come dancing with us. (One of our vanilla couple friends wants to do the same.) We are just not going any where near there! So we're now a lot vaguer... "Oh, just out with some friends." Which leads to .... "So, who are these friends?" Fortunately I have worked in a few places and a long time ago went to school in a few more. Amazing how those old acquaintances keep popping up. I am all for just telling them plain out. After all, we are just about hitting that half-century mark so we shouldn't still have to lie to our parents about our friends or "hobbies". J is just not willing to take that step at the moment. I am not really sure sometimes if we are really fooling anyone, especially her sister though, from some comments she had dropped.

(Amy posting) I have read this thread and responded, and maybe some explanation is in order. I don't do the trolling for the two of us. However, we are a play-together-at-all-times couple. It is important to both of us that we all (meaning all couples or people) have a connection and a comfort level between us. It is a known fact in our marriage that I tend to be the better judge of someone's character and not just their sexual abilities. We have been in the situation where my husband has been the hunter, and upon meeting the woman, while she was quite attractive, she was also quite judgmental, very cold to talk to with me, and that simply will not do for us. There was no respect from her, nor was there respect for our marriage. With this in mind, I know my husband's taste, but I will not be put aside by any woman in any circumstance simply to appease your sense of what should be fair. My husband and I are not swinging together to insure that you are the only one who comes out happy in the situation. As far as men being pigs, I do not think that men are by nature piggish. I do however, think that when plied with alcohol and naked breasts, they may not be the best judge of who I would enjoy being with. This does not feminize my husband, nor does it show a lack of people skills on his part. He is my equal in every way. (Cubby posting) Tybee, you are missing the entire point of my thread. I will attempt to explain where I am coming from. In doing so, I will not presume to speak for all men. I will simply speak for myself. Back in my single days, if I would go to a bar to pick up a woman, I would be competing with every other man in that bar. Because of this, it becomes critical that I strut my peacock feathers and try to be more macho. At least that is what general society says I must do. While you may disagree with this, let's face facts. This is how men have operated since we left the cave. In a swinging environment, while we men do have a bit of temptation to compete, we really don't have to. There is an understanding that everyone is there for sex, and for the most part, there is plenty of it to go around. This means that we men must change our strategy. Instead of being the biggest dick in the room, or thumping our chests the hardest, we must learn to speak to and interact with women in a manner that is more, for lack of a better term, "evolved". Some men may find this difficult to do, since we have been taught otherwise our whole lives, so it is easier to let the wives do the "hunting." Granted, this may make some men look lazy, but that really isn't the case. As far as more discriminating, I will also disagree with you. If I am trying to pick up a woman in a vanilla bar, that woman will choose between me and how I carry myself as opposed to every other man there. If I'm a bit of a "pig" in a vanilla bar, that is not necessarily a deal-breaker, if I look better than the other guys there, and you have decided that I'll do. In a swinging situation, it is expected that I have a better understanding of women, and am better able to engage in conversation that is more "evolved". Granted this assumes that the quality of partners is better in a swing environment, which may not always be the case, but in general, this is a safe bet, because we would not be at this point in our relationship if I didn't have some "skills." To the rest of the world, that often makes me look more "feminine" in nature to other men because this lifestyle is a choice between me and my wife and my sex life is no longer a scorepad to compare in the locker room, which you, as a woman, with all due respect, would not understand. So my question, which I intended to direct more towards the men, was "do you feel like swinging has had a feminizing effect, meaning, have you been able to successfully adapt to the change in strategy this lifestyle requires for men." I don't know how to explain it any clearer than that. Sorry for the length.

I think one answer may be just be in it more so as to be more accustomed to it. We have a club dance this weekend again, so there will be more opportunity. And, it is fun just being in with all those nude people. Very erotically charged atmosphere.

I'm with Billie and Elaine on this.I have valid reasons. Church is not a valid institute. It is rather an institute of control. The only reason for the existence of religion (of ANY kind) is to divide and conquer, to cause enmity , racial hatred and discord. This statement is self evident and can be seen by merely looking at the current world condition. The most glaring 2 examples are Muslim extremism and it's brother, christian extremism of which g.w. bush is a proponent. He did say he was chosen by god, didn't he? We have to look at the facts here. It is FACT that there was no Jesus Christ. There is rather a higher awareness and a need to be responsible toward one-another which transcends that which is thrown at us from pulpits around the planet. Religion, politics and war should all be outlawed.....immediately.