Swinging with a married man.

[Chicup 38]

You know, sometimes when first reading a thread I ignore 'Captain Obvious' trying to tell me something basic.

 

Well Captain obvious has spoken to me and I finally heard what he had to say, and what he told me is that guys like the OP really don't understand swinging.

 

Now you all said 'well yeah' and you are correct but let me get a bit deeper.

 

What they don't understand is that for most of us at least, swinging is not why we are happy in our marriages. His wife doesn't want to swing, and that's fine, shes by no means alone. This makes him feel trapped and unhappy as he would really like to try swinging and she says no. He wants to feel the butterflies of a new partner again. He is bored. That's fine and dandy, but if 6 or 7 years ago when we started talking about our fantasies, if Mrs. Chicup said 'no' I'd still be happily married to Mrs. Chicup. I'd not be here wanting to fill some empty part of my soul, in fact I'd have forgotten this board existed (much like I've forgotten what my original log on name was back then). We have taken breaks from swinging, and I didn't feel any yearnings that would have led me to cheat on her. Am I lucky we are both of the same mind in swinging? Yes very much so, but I'm also lucky she likes the same baseball team, and lucky she puts up with my bad habits. Swinging has been great for us, but it is not who we are, its a hobby, and I'd never want to feel the guilt of cheating for something that's just a hobby.

[Spoomonkey 418]

Chicup said:

What they don't understand is that for most of us at least, swinging is not why we are happy in our marriages.

 

Dito

 

The are people outside the lifestyle that don't get this...

 

There are people INSIDE the lifestyle that don't get this...

 

And there are clouds of people who don't get this who are buzzing around the lifestyle like mosquitoes on an otherwise perfect evening...

 

Our marriage was happy before swinging, it is happy in the midst of swinging and it will perfectly happy when swinging is over. It is not the "glue that keeps us together".

[Amanda69 24]

let me ask you to identify cheating. Is it the act of having a different partner? If so, that would identify every active swinger, correct??

 

Incorrect....it is as pointed out before the act of lying and deceit. In the lifestyle we share our partners sexually by consent and to the enhancement of our committed and open relationship.

 

If your marriage isn't giving you what you want then either fix it, leave or put up with it but don't give us a whine about how you would like to be part of the lifestyle...in your current situation you aren't and you won't be.

 

If you want to cheat then there are many websites devoted to this, the most popular of which is Ashley Madison .....

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

Another drive by posting by Infidelity, Inc......... cant log back in becuase he may get caught

[Alura 2,766]

Morality aside, Driven2please, one major reason married cheaters have a tough time finding playmates is simply that we don't need you.

 

Most of us play with couples. We have more in common with them, take the same risks, are able to do anything we can do with a single (and more), and do not have to subject ourselves to the drama that inevitably comes from cheating.

 

Few married couples swing; fewer yet swing with singles. There may be an extreme few who are willing to take the risks of playing with a married/single honest cheater, but they must be desperate indeed. You might even want to consider eschewing such a couple yourself, for the sake of your own safety!

 

Finally, if you want to compete in our Porsche Club's autocross event, drive your own Porsche there. Don't take a taxi to the track and ask me to allow you to drive my car because you are a better driver than I am and you can't drive your car because you crashed it into the wall. I'll either drive my car myself or swap with another driver just for variety.

[LFM2 1,481]

I'm glad you got all that off your chest. As you can see, I haven't been here all that long, but those that read my posts will know how opinionated I really can be.

 

I've known an older couple for a few years who used to swing. They don't anymore because of health issues, but the male of the couple still does. They've set ground rules, and since he is very much bi-sexual, he only plays with bi-sexual or gay men. His wife has gladly given her permission for him to play with these men. Does that make him a cheater? Not in any way shape or form. He's got her permission, and he is honest about what goes on when he goes out.

 

What still irks me is when posters, such as yourself, equate cheaters and swingers in the same post. We do not cheat. My husband is right there with me. If he had brought up the idea of swinging and I wasn't receptive, we would still be happy. We've been extremely happy together for two decades, so why would one of us not wanting to swing make the other one stray? We wouldn't. I think we've got integrity. You know what integrity is don't you? Integrity is doing the right thing even if there is no chance that you would be caught doing the wrong thing.

[Driven2please 15]

OK, I think I am thoroughly toasted... Surrender. Can someone pass the Aloe?

 

Just to clear a lot of misconception..

 

My wife and I get along famously. We do everything together, including work together. We have had 4 arguments in 24 years of being together, so the communication argument should be considered nil. Our sex is pretty good. Neither leaves the bed unfulfilled, in the physical sense. Mentally, I would like a bit more. Although she is satisfied.

 

Do we have a tough time when it comes to "Special Events"? Yes. Thanks to a rigid Catholic background, it does make introducing new things difficult, if not impossible. We do talk about it. You may liken it to a person scared of heights to try a rollercoaster. For some things come easy. For others, seemingly easy tasks can be arduous.

 

I think many had misinterpreted the thrust of my original post. And that's the only reason I responded in the first place.

 

What difference is there, if a non-swing wife gives permission to the spouse vs. a participating wife?

 

Many have vehemently protested the Married with permission guys. YES, THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO ME. I KNOW THAT. But , if the married with permission gets blown away what sense is there in even broaching the subject with the wife, and risk her emotional distress.

 

Only a few posters cared to take enough time to read my post before donning the flame suit and go troll hunting. For those few that did, I appreciate it. Thank you. I truly mean it.

 

One (Alura) appears to have hit it on the head. Men are in an overabundance in this lifestyle, so you can be picky. I guess that says it all.

 

I wish you all the best, in every facet of your lives.

[Driven2please 15]

I guess I still didn't get my main point across, after re-reading it.

 

I am not calling swingers cheaters, by any means. I meant no reference to such.

 

I just don't see the difference in a "married with permission" and a single, or a married with swing partner. I should even preface that with "married with Verifiable permission". Although there is definatly a stigma to any male without a partner here.

 

But the fact still remains..too many men, too few women..

 

sorry to waste your time.

 

(Still envious, though!)

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

Driven2please said:

Just to clear a lot of misconception..

My wife and I get along famously. We do everything together, including work together. We have had 4 arguments in 24 years of being together, so the communication argument should be considered nil.

 

Just because you dont argue does not mean you communicate successfully!

 

 

Driven2please said:

Thanks to a rigid Catholic background, it does make introducing new things difficult, if not impossible.

 

This sounds so resentful of her upbringing.

 

As a couple who can successfully communicate, you would understand where she is coming from and look to new ways that are less invasive of her beliefs and more gratifying for you. Likewise if she understood the core of what you desire, she would look to new variations as well. Fact is that you elude to neither and give the picture you have given up and outright state you may one day cheat.

 

That is (as I see it) why you got blasted here. Had you asked for help the responses would have been totally opposite

[Alura 2,766]

Quote

Driven2Please wrote:

 

One (Alura)apears to have hit it on the head. Men are in an overabundance in this lifestyle, so you can be picky. I guess that says it all.

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Driven2please.

 

Actually, an overabundance of males has little to do with our not playing with single or single/married males. Even if unaccompanied males were rare as single females, we'd still not need them. We only play with couples, and it's Mrs. Alura's decision, not mine... although I agree completely with her.

 

While most swingers have the same rule we do, there are a few exceptions. Some single (and, I'm sure, single/married) men manage to hook up with them. That's okay with us. Just don't tell us we're bigots because we don't choose to.

 

I've never known of a driver showing up at a Porsche Club event in a taxi, asking to drive one of the members' cars because he couldn't drive his own. I think he'd know the answer before he asked.

[rpu3 630]

Driven2please said:

I just don't see the difference in a "married with permission" and a single, or a married with swing partner. I should even preface that with "married with Verifiable permission". Although there is definitely a stigma to any male without a partner here.

 

Single - no other person being deceived, hurt, etc. All are there honestly.

 

Married w/Permission: I have seen this with well established couples -wife's pregnant, taking a break, etc. Again, no one is being deceived or hurt, all are there under honest conditions.

 

Married w/swing partner - I'm not sure what you are getting at there - if it's a married individual without his wife, and his wife has not stated she is fine with this, then therein lies the difference. If it is an unmarried w/a swing friend, etc., it's a different situation.

 

It's the honesty that's at issue. We (personally, not globally) are not going to engage in activity directly or indirectly in which someone (the wife) is being deceived. Therein lies the difference to us - one situation is honest - the other is deceitful.

[JnCC 24]

Driven2please said:

Thanks to a rigid Catholic background, it does make introducing new things difficult, if not impossible. We do talk about it. You may liken it to a person scared of heights to try a rollercoaster. For some things come easy. For others, seemingly easy tasks can be arduous.

 

Just an observation;

 

My ex- also came from one of those "rigid Catholic backgrounds" that you mention. However, in the context of the lifestyle, she tended to be "The Hottie" and I tended to be "The control." I think that coming from a highly restrictive moral and/or religious background creates a natural rebellion in many people, especially around mid-life (40-55). If you're able to tap into any lingering curiosity your wife has about "what she missed" while she was at Catechism, you could be in for the ride of your life.

[Amanda69 24]

Curious how exactly will you be able to "prove" to another couple that you have permission

[Spoomonkey 418]

Alura said:

While most swingers have the same rule we do, there are a few exceptions.

 

Okay - it took me a little digging, but I didn't want to start a poll that had already been done. As to the question of "do couples include single men in their play" it would appears based on this thread that most couples do include single men. And that certainly lines up with my experience. It seems that couples who play exclusively with couples are actually the exception.

[intuition897 2,177]

What difference is there, if a non-swing wife gives permission to the spouse vs. a participating wife?

 

Many have vehemently protested the Married with permission guys. YES, THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO ME. I KNOW THAT. But , if the married with permission gets blown away what sense is there in even broaching the subject with the wife, and risk her emotional distress.

 

There's informed consent (verifiable permission, where one spouse has full knowledge, and gives his or her enthusiastic and loving consent. This spouse wants to know who his/her spouse's playmates are.), and UN-informed consent, where one spouse consents to allowing his/her spouse have sex with other people...but he/she doesn't like it, or doesn't want to know the details. This is simply cheating out in the open. In truth, his/her consent merely exists as a feel-good measure for the cheating spouse, so that she/he can tell her/himself that this is an honest arrangement. Trouble is, it's not an honest arrangement, because one person is not actually happy with it. They're just putting up with it. Nor does this person have any true veto power; if the unwilling partner denied her spouse this freedom, she knows he would just take it without telling her about it...or pout and carry on until she finally gave in. Her only other choice is to leave.

 

What sense is there in telling her? I guess that depends on how high a priority you think honesty is in your relationship. You're talking to people who place it at the very top of their list. Our feeling is that if a relationship must employ dishonesty to exist, it should not exist at all. No exceptions. And that includes 20+ year marriages of couples who, otherwise, get along great.

[intuition897 2,177]

Curious how exactly will you be able to "prove" to another couple that you have permission

 

The couple asks to speak personally with the solo-playing person's spouse/partner to find out if she's truly consenting, or just being dragged into it. If the solo person refuses, it's a pretty sure bet that his/her partner is NOT agreeable to the arrangement.

[Amanda69 24]

Okay but the actual results read as follows:

 

Do you Swing With Single Males?

Yes, we swing EXCLUSIVELY with single males 14 9.09%

No, we have no desire to swing with single males 35 22.73%

We don't currently, but we have considered/ are considering adding them 38 24.68%

Yes, we swing with single males as well as couples 67 43.51%

 

 

So 47 % have not swung with single males, though 23 % but may have considered it and 53 % have swung with single males but only 9% of those have done so exclusively.

 

I wonder how many would say they would swing with a married male who says he has permission to swing

[Spoomonkey 418]

Amanda69 said:

I wonder how many would say they would swing with a married male who says he has permission to swing

 

We wouldn't. The "extra step" of talking to the wife seems like more trouble than it is worth.

[JnCC 24]

Spoomonkey said:

As to the question of "do couples include single men in their play" it would appears based on this thread that most couples do include single men. And that certainly lines up with my experience. It seems that couples who play exclusively with couples are actually the exception.

 

I don't know...I think that poll, while "technically" correct, could be a little misleading. For example, had I been asked in 2002 if we "had ever considered adding a single male" I would have answered "yes." But that was a one-time situation...a confluence of alcohol, horniness (on her part), sexual exhaustion (on my part), and an attractive and interesting gentleman/drinking companion in a Key West bar.

 

One time, in 7 years. And we never even made it back to our room. While our experience would certainly skew the poll in favor of "couples who have considered single men," as a practical matter it would have no bearing on the actual number of couples who play with single guys, or the number of single guys who might hope to get lucky in the lifestyle. And I can absolutely, positively guaran-damn-tee you that had an equally attractive interesting couple been sitting next to me at the bar, the single gentleman would have remained just that...single...at the end of the evening, for the very reasons that Alura has alluded to.

 

Another situation...

 

The husband of one of our lifestyle-friends gave his wife what amounted to a one-time, weekend pass to seduce a male colleague at an annual convention. (The gentleman was married, but lived in another part of the country) Within the lifestyle, this couple were adamantly against single males. Had they answered the poll, they might have answered that they "swung with single males as well as couples," but as a practical matter, nuh-huh...they were strictly a "couples-only" couple.

 

(One might also conclude from that that if a guy is attractive enough to a woman in the lifestyle and there's little chance of getting caught, it doesn't matter if he's married. Save the flames and the discussion of semantics...I'm just saying how it went down, that's all.)

 

Something that doesn't get talked about much is the number of couples who profess to be "interested in single males," but who really seem to be interested in little more than jerking their chains. They'll flirt and they'll flash single guys, maybe even invite a grope or two, but when it comes down to the actual deed, they'll choose another couple every time. I see it happening in the clubs, but have no reason to believe it's not going on in the websites as well. It's chicken-shit wherever it happens, but happen it does.

 

My totally, "Just-my-opinion, Pulled-straight-from-my-Ass" estimate on the number of couples who actively solicit and follow-up with single males is not more than 5-10%. The actual percentage of strictly MFM encounters (as compared to that of MFMF encounters) may be as few as 1% on any given night.

[Chicup 38]

Spoomonkey said:

Okay - it took me a little digging, but I didn't want to start a poll that had already been done. As to the question of "do couples include single men in their play" it would appears based on this thread that most couples do include single men. And that certainly lines up with my experience. It seems that couples who play exclusively with couples are actually the exception.

 

Those same polls say we straight males in the minority too Spoo. I think our polls suffer from a 'lurker' factor. We can read into it what we want, but a majority of couples we have run into over the years do not play with single males. If those numbers were true I think we would see a lot more happy single males in the lifestyle

[Spoomonkey 418]

JnCC said:

My totally, "Just-my-opinion, Pulled-straight-from-my-Ass" estimate...

 

Well - at least we know the quality of the turf...

 

 

Your example not withstanding, there are plenty of couples who play with single males. We tend to do whatever we are in the mood for at the time. Statistical gymnastics aside, single men are a part of the lifestyle - and so are the couples who play with them.

 

We could run the poll again and I would bet that the "couples only" couples would still be in the minority. It may give some folks an inch of wood to kick around singles any time they get a chance, but let's be fair and honest about what "most" couples in the lifestyle are open to.

[JnCC 24]

Chicup said:

I think our polls suffer from a 'lurker' factor. We can read into it what we want, but a majority of couples we have run into over the years do not play with single males. If those numbers were true I think we would see a lot more happy single males in the lifestyle

 

If 53% of the couples listed on adult websites were truly looking for single male FB's, I'd pull my profile from Match.com and post one on AFF or SN in a heartbeat.

 

What I'd save on drinks and dinners in one month would pay for the ad...

[Thrax 384]

Polls? Garbage In, Garbage Out.

 

I do NOT represent myself as a seasoned pollster. However, two of my previous jobs required me to design surveys of businesses and customers -- taking into account the mathematics that give you data that allows statisticians to figure within a reasonable doubt what the real probabilities are -- to ascertain what certain folks thought about certain issues. So, I learned a little about how big a sample interview population size should be to get reasonably accurate results, how to design a survey that was as unbiased as possible, and how to interpret the results (as well as how much of a margin of error should be ascribed to a specific survey). Well, I've forgotten the specifics, so sue me.

 

Anyway, Internet surveys or polls are pretty much poop (to use the technical term). Internet surveys rarely represent the broad spectrum of possible respondents and therefore usually don't provide the data needed to gauge the opinions of true population samples. Internet polls most commonly ask folks to respond, but don't seek a true total and/or representative population to make sure ALL parties are polled thus making the gathered data representative of the ENTIRE POPULATION.

 

It's a control issue. Control gives you better data.

 

It's like those "measure-your-penis" polls. Which would you trust more? The data gathered from random Internet respondents who found your survey and decided to measure themselves and provide measurements without any corroboration? Or would you trust the poll that sought out men representative of all ethnic and age groups in the general population and had a group measuring penises to specific standards? So, of these two types of penis-measurement surveys, which do you think is the most commonly prevalent and of course often cited? Yeah, the non-scientific one, 'cause it's easier to do.

 

So, anyway, Internet polls are extremely suspect, often because of the limited universe (potential respondents) who can VIEW the survey, and DO respond. Spoo, for all we know, most of the couples that don't like to involve single men did not bother to respond to that Board survey you cited, but there is no way of us checking that.

 

Anyway, another glass of pinot grigio is calling...after too many glasses already, obviously.

 

Questions?

[JnCC 24]

No questions...you covered that quite well, Thrax. Thanks!

 

There's one other thing that makes me question the "Most couples play with single males" hypothesis, and that is the fact that single males are not permitted at any of the National conventions. You'd think that if a significant number of couples were interested in SM's, there would be at least a few permitted at those events, perhaps in a certain area or floor of the hotel. As it is, there are none...they're couples only

 

The financial incentive to the organization hosting the convention for allowing single males would be tremendous. Assuming the normal differential in door fees were applied, a single male would pay between $1,000 and $1,500 to attend a 3-day event. I think you could easily find 50 to 100 guys who would pay that just for the privilege of running around with their dicks hanging out, hounding couples for 3 days straight.

 

I don't see NASCA jumping on board for any of that potential 50-150 grand.

 

If and when couples start looking for single males in any significant numbers, you'll see clubs drop the door fees for SM's and advertise prominently the fact that they're welcomed to the club, not "hidden in the small print" as is now so often the case..

[good times 990]

I think I have a little different take on this whole single male and who wants them thing. My thinking regarding the poll that Spoomonkey cited is that it is fairly representitive of our experience of the people we know in the lifestyle, but it also gives a false indication of how many single males are needed or desired. The reason for this is that I know a quite a few couples that play with single males once in a while, or would consider one if they met the right one, but they primarily play with couples. So, even though around 50% of the couples might play with a single male if all the planets lined up right, only about 10% might play with them most of the time. then consider that maybe 30% might play with a single male 20% of the time, and the final 10% might play with the right one but never have. It then figures that even though the poll says 50% might play with single males, if you had a party with 100 couples, only about 5-10 single males would hook up with a couple to play. If our observations are typical, that would actually be a real good night for single males, but not an unrealistic figure.

[JnCC 24]

good times said:

...even though around 50% of the couples might play with a single male if all the planets lined up right, only about 10% might play with them most of the time. then consider that maybe 30% might play with a single male 20% of the time, and the final 10% might play with the right one but never have. It then figures that even though the poll says 50% might play with single males, if you had a party with 100 couples, only about 5-10 single males would hook up with a couple to play. If our observations are typical, that would actually be a real good night for single males, but not an unrealistic figure.

 

I agree with your numbers. In fact, your percentages are about what I've observed at a swing clubs that allow single males. Of course, what we don't know is how many couples won't go to a club or party in the first place if they know that single males will be there. That's the number that's kind of hard to pin down, but I suspect that given a choice between a "couples only" private party and one which permits SM's, couples will gravitate to the "couples only" party by a large margin. Thus, the "price" that the lifestyle pays for the success of those 5-10% of single males is the disenfranchisement of a large segment of it's couples population.

[good times 990]

I don't know if it is a large percentage of the swinging population JNCC, because, as you say, it is hard to pin down, but it is true that some won't go to a club if single males are allowed. Fact is, all things being equal, my wife and I prefer couples only clubs. However, with us at least, clubs aren't always equal, so right now our favorite club allows single males. But we like it better because it is a nicer club and has better amenities, dispite the fact that they allow single males. I'll have to admit, the one club of three in our town that has a couples only night is probably still in business because it has a couples only night, as that night is their most popular night by a large margin.

[LFM2 1,481]

Driven2please said:

Thanks to a rigid Catholic background, it does make introducing new things difficult, if not impossible.

 

My husband and I both come from very strict Catholic households. We've obviously overcame a lot to start swinging. You're right about introducing new things, but it's obviously not impossible.

 

Driven2please said:

What difference is there, if a non-swing wife gives permission to the spouse vs. a participating wife?

 

Ditto what Intuition said.

 

Driven2please said:

Many have vehemently protested the Married with permission guys.

 

I didn't protest it. In fact, it's worked with my friend and his wife for years. But, what I would protest is the fact that some husbands -- sneaky rat bastards that they can be -- would pay a female friend to either pose as their wife to either meet the other couple in person or phone conversation. (Sorry, I work in the Correctional System, and I'm thinking with the criminal mind. ) I'm not saying you would do it, but I do think that there are some men out there yellow enough to do it.

 

Playing with a male who has "permission" just wouldn't be in the cards for us. We agree with what Spoo said. It probably wouldn't be worth the trouble.

[Chicup 38]

I think I have a little different take on this whole single male and who wants them thing. My thinking regarding the poll that Spoomonkey cited is that it is fairly representitive of our experience of the people we know in the lifestyle, but it also gives a false indication of how many single males are needed or desired. The reason for this is that I know a quite a few couples that play with single males once in a while, or would consider one if they met the right one, but they primarily play with couples. So, even though around 50% of the couples might play with a single male if all the planets lined up right, only about 10% might play with them most of the time. then consider that maybe 30% might play with a single male 20% of the time, and the final 10% might play with the right one but never have. It then figures that even though the poll says 50% might play with single males, if you had a party with 100 couples, only about 5-10 single males would hook up with a couple to play. If our observations are typical, that would actually be a real good night for single males, but not an unrealistic figure.

 

I would say your interpretation is correct. Hell I could invision a circumstance we would play with a single male, but it would require the proper alignment of the stars and another White Sox world series win.

 

Also we don't go to clubs that allow single males, but we will go to off sight events that will. Dealing with the creepy couples is bad enough. Now if a club had a real selection process for single males, then it would be different.

[sereneiders 263]

Spoomonkey said:

The problem with your "logic" is this: Swinging couples play within the boundaries of BOTH partners. Married men who decide to swing solo, even though their wife won't for whatever reason (oppressive religious ideas are certainly a common culprit) are NOT treating their wives with the same respect.

 

They are crossing the established boundaries of their marriage.

 

intuition897 said:

What makes you think, my dear, that many of us haven't been precisely where you are? The difference is that there was a realization that just because we wanted something, didn't mean we could just take it. It's like a kid whining that he wants the toy, wants the toy, wants the toy. Mom says "ABsolutely not!" So the kids steals it. And you're asking us to "open our minds" to the possibility that maybe the kid had his reasons. Yeah. She said no. He took it anyway. You haven't cheated yet, but you do wrong by your wife for even considering it. It's in your heart, and that's where the wrongness of it lies. Not in whether or not you've put your penis is someone else's orifice.

 

...

 

And then they try to convince themselves AND everyone who would listen (and we swingers should understand, because, by their definition of the word, we are all cheaters too, no?) that we are unfairly judgmental because we refuse to condone the behaviour. This pisses me off. Your post is an exercise in self-validation, and you're looking for others to make you feel better about yourself. You will deny this now, but I dare you to come back a year from now, after you've torn your wife's heart out when she's found out that you deceived her, and deny it.

 

You won't like my post very much, I'm sure. I truly am sorry that you feel the way you do. As a rule, I don't dislike the person; I just dislike what they do. And when someone does wrong, acknowledges it, and does whatever is necessary to make things right, it's easy to do this. The problem arises when a person allows the problem to become a part of who they are.

 

I'd try to put up those posts togheter to expose another aspect of swinging that you don't seem to understand.

 

As opposed as what you may suppose, swinging is an activity that require way more strict rules to be followed than the ones a vanilla couple have (which include the "no sex with others" rule).

 

To be able to develop those rules FIRST, and to be confident that both will be able, willing, and up to stick to those rules it is required a long communication process leading to the understanding of each one desires and fears, at last, this require a commitment with the honesty.

 

You're watching the problem towards your own bellybutton, and (perhaps because you didn't dare to engage in a process like this with your wife), you didn't realize about what happens TO the couple when facing people who want to play using your arguments.

 

The first problem is, as Intuition said, that they are unaware of the meaning and purpose for those rules.They're not up to follow the rules they state inside their own marriage to protect what they claim it is the most sacred they have, so we may suspect, reasonably, that at any point in the middle of the game they wont stick to our rules, perhaps because he just didn't understood it even when he said he did (perhaps because it was a requisite to "socre").

 

The second, and more important problem is, should this couple agree about the validity of your arguments, they'd be challenging all the honesty conception required for them to be able to swing, and the grounds for the entire process they engaged into as to be able to swing. This alone could be way more damaging than any odd outcome from the game itself, and it would bring up in the privacy of their home.

 

So, the problem isn't just about married guys playing as singles, but more about the couple daring to play with them after accepting these arguments that contradicts the ones required to be able to swing without tearing the marriage apart, thus, undermining their marriage just from proposing them to be re-evaluated.

 

I guess it is because of this that we trend to be so harsh on people posting those sorts of arguments. We're compelled to stand for the principles allowing us to preserve our marriages while swinging (and even if not swinging) as a way to defend ourselves from this challenge.

 

So, you may convince some distracted couple to slip in their bed by means of those arguments, and it is likely that once you leave the bed, you'd leave behind a bomb ticking that could blow in their face.

 

And again, this is just another face from the lack of awareness about the need to have rules and stick to it, if not for you, FOR THAT MARRIAGE. And again, if you may choose to fulfill your sexual fantasies at the price of risking to hurt your wife, why wouldn't you at the risk of hurting those unknown couples you wouldn't meet anymore after having your pie?

 

So, I hope this to let you foresight why we do believe a playmate like yourself is too dangerous for us as to dare to play with.

[Spoomonkey 418]

JnCC said:

I agree with your numbers.

 

So...

 

What we are saying is 50%?

 

Hell - that is half of the couples even by the numbers agreed upon by the "couples only" folks. It would appear that a single male would have much better luck at a swing event than at a Porsche Party.

 

Are singles our "preferred" mode of transportation? Heck no - not by a long shot. And as I have said before, out of all the singles we have played with only one was any good. Add on top of that the fact that we do tend to have excellent luck and experiences with couples. In our world, singles do have the deck stacked squarely against them.

 

My point is - as we can see by the number you guys agreed on - is that the couples who will consider a single male are not the exception.

[EvilMJ 65]

Just to touch on the married with permisson subject. It really depends on the couple. We have friends that I play with, they have a poly type relationship with another couple and all live together. The husband of one couple and the wife of the other play as a couple, because their other halves really aren't intersted in swinging with other people outside of their foursome any more. They however have no problem with their spouces playing, as long as they are with people in a group that they have met and approved.

 

I have met and gotten to know all four of them and we are all friends, I also have persmisson to play with the husband of one couple either as part of a threesome or alone. (generally at a dance or the club). It works but only because I know them all.

 

I would never take someone's word for it, I would have to meet the wife, get to know her and find out the full story. I think there are too many married men out there right now who play with 'the permisson of their wife' but in reality are cheating and she knows nothing about it.

[Alura 2,766]

Quote

 

Spoomonkey wrote:

 

It would appear that a single male would have much better luck at a swing event than at a Porsche Party.

 

 

I have no doubt this is true, Spoo! I'd say, in fact, that a single male would have a 99% better chance of fucking somebody's wife at a swing club than driving someone else's car at an Autocross. It makes me wonder why some of us are more daring with our wives than our cars, especially if we have a "one out of ???" success rate.

 

Of course, at an Autocross, a car-less person would know better than to ask. Perhaps that's the difference.

[Chicup 38]

Spoomonkey said:

My point is - as we can see by the number you guys agreed on - is that the couples who will consider a single male are not the exception.

 

The key word is consider. It is not that they would be 100% out, just that they would be 99.5% out.

[JnCC 24]

Alura said:

I'd say, in fact, that a single male would have a 99% better chance of fucking somebody's wife at a swing club than driving someone else's car at an Autocross. It makes me wonder why some of us are more daring with our wives than our cars, especially if we have a "one out of ???" success rate.

 

That reminds me of the first night we actually did a full-swap with another couple. It was at a club, and the experience was pretty satisfying for all involved. We slept over with them at the club, with plans to join them for breakfast the next morning at a popular, nearby restaurant.

 

As we walked out to the parking lot that morning, the male-half of the other couple spied my recently-purchased Corvette...a "post-divorce, mid-life-crises" present to myself. He hollered out, "You didn't tell us you had a Corvette! I LOVE Corvettes! I've wanted one ever since I was a kid!" (They were in their late 20's/early 30's at the time... still kids, as far as we were concerned)

 

I tossed him the keys and said "Here ya go, buddy. You've already had my girlfriend, you might as well take my car, too. See ya at the restaurant in an hour...it'll take us that long to get a table."

 

I guess they liked the car, because about a year later, they bought one of their own. We wound up joining the same Corvette club, and taking several road-trip/sex-camp vacations with them. I'm sure the fact that we always shared a room with them on the road set tongues wagging among the other club members.

 

Maybe it's because that's how we were indoctrinated into the lifestyle, but I always thought that ideally, that's how swinging should work. "Sometimes good sex, but always good friends" with the people with whom you share your bed. Those kinds of intimate, ongoing friendships are hard to cultivate when, as a single, your goals and interests are so diverse from theirs. What kind of conversation can you possibly have with a couple, when you're planning to spend your Christmas bonus on a trip to Hedo with some bimbo you met online, and they're planning to spend theirs on a new riding lawnmower with optional mulcher attachment?

 

Being single in a largely-couples world isn't all bad, but it does set forth certain challenges. Being a single male in a couples swinging world is possible, but it multiplies those challenges ten-fold. Being a "single," cheating male in the swinging world is also possible, but it increases those challenges by a hundred-fold.

[Driven2please 15]

I think "sereneiders" pretty much said it in a nutshell. That post made a whole lot of sense. I appreciate all posters input (yes, even the flamethrowers), and thank you all. You probably saved me from making a mistake I would regret. I would take issue over those who doubt our communication , but it really ends up a zero net gain in the whole scheme of things. We have worked through many issues, but I feel this one would end up being insurmountable. Too much baggage. And this is primarily why I am thanking you all. I had SOME misconceptions , and probably didn't think EVERYTHING through as I should have. All of you have brought many good points to light. I probably WOULD have cheated, and tried to find some lame ass way of making it right in my head. And NOT been able to justify it in my head, in the end. Thank you.

 

I guess I saw a large group of people able to experience something I had yearned for, for so long. Then basically saw the psuedo attacks on the Single guys, to full out slaughter on the married guys.(Especially SLS) And now I can understand why. Honestly, I never considered guys hiring some girl to "front" for them. (I guess I was never desparate enough?) And yes, it would be a pain to "verify", and not worth the hassles.

 

I hope someday the opportunity exists for me, but not without my wife. Thank you again, and enjoy it to the fullest.

[fun4Ds 1,097]

More thought on things driven2please, back to your reply as to what would be the point of asking your wife, and going through the drama, when no one would want to play with you anyhow? If that is your point. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

My take on this is if things were really cool... and everything up front... and we could in fact speak with, and know that your wife is perfectly fine with you playing with us. Well... yes, you would be very much considered a candidate for playing in the fun house but you would have to realize the honesty that would be given to your wife. We are thinking that you would be a "unicorn" in your own right, because we haven't ever seen or heard of any women giving her husband those privileges. but if the scenario did exist it seems that you would be in high demand for those wives that like a mfm. I mean, that if we did know your wife, well... that would take away a lot of the safety factors compared to playing with single males. And it would take a pretty cool wife to give that kind of permission. so I guess I'm just trying to see things from a different perspective.

 

Just wondering if anyone has ever come across such a scenario: a married women giving permission with out being involved and being o.k. with it?

 

Wouldn't they be a "married male with permission" "unicorn"

[jcbicouple 24]

fun4Ds said:

just wondering if anyone has ever come across such a scenerio, a married women giving permission with out being involved and being o.k. with it.

 

wouldn't they be a "married male with permission" "unicorn"

 

We have both given the other "permission" to play alone. So far, it's been with singles, but we haven't ruled out couples. We still prefer to play together, but are enjoying the separate play very much. It hasn't been perceived as a threat by either of us, and has actually been quite exciting.

[Spoomonkey 418]

Alura said:

It makes me wonder why some of us are more daring with our wives than our cars, especially if we have a "one out of ???" success rate.

 

This is a very good point...

 

The only hole in it is that owning a car is not a parallel to having a wife. I make all the decisions for my car - but am usually seen as a valued consultant when it comes to decisions regarding my wife.

 

With that in mind, we are certainly becoming more and more hard on single men. I will admit this. Chances are - singles will be limited to those we know and are comfortable with (yep, that "one" guy). We may take chances on singles who really trip Mrs Spoo's trigger - so we are still open - but over time you do get tired of allowing someone to "drive your porsche" only to find out that he grinds the clutch and drips shit on the seat...

 

But - for every cynical voice of experience, there are a dozen naive couples who are jumping in - many looking for singles. If they have experiences like we did, they will become - like us - "couples mostly" (if not "couples only") - but for now - as long as their are newbies - there is hope

[jcbicouple 24]

Spoomonkey said:

But - for every cynical voice of experience, there are a dozen naive couples who are jumping in - many looking for singles. If they have experiences like we did, they will become - like us - "couples mostly" (if not "couples only") - but for now - as long as their are newbies - there is hope

 

Spoo....what issues have you had with singles? We've met a significantly higher number of singles (male and female) than couples, and the experiences have been as good or better. We've found it easier to find one person that we hit it off with than two. That isn't saying that our experience with couples has been bad in any way....just that the experiences with singles have been good as well.

 

P.S. We certainly aren't newbies!

[Spoomonkey 418]

jcbicouple said:

Spoo....what issues have you had with singles? We've met a significantly higher number of singles (male and female) than couples, and the experiences have been as good or better. We've found it easier to find one person that we hit it off with than two. That isn't saying that our experience with couples has been bad in any way....just that the experiences with singles have been good as well.

 

Rather than retype my experience, I'll just link to this. Reading it over, it is sort of funny...

 

On this thread I am kind of defending the place of singles - but reading the linked post, it is obvious I am defending a very, very small place

 

Single men, as a whole have been largely disappointing for the reasons I've linked. But I do suppose it depends on your experiences. A long line of bad ones will definitely sour a couple.

 

jcbicouple said:

P.S. We certainly aren't newbies!

 

I should have made my point clearer. There are obviously quite a few couples who enjoy and have great luck with single men. And their experience only makes the things better.

 

Obviously, enjoying single men is not limited to newbies

[jcbicouple 24]

Spoomonkey said:

Rather than retype my experience, I'll just link to this. Reading it over, it is sort of funny...

 

Your other post makes sense. We've seen some of the same....guys looking to backdoor me, not willing to talk to both of us, etc. Fortunately, those have been few for us, and we've managed to weed out most of them in early conversations. We've also seen our share of couples that appeared to not like each other, were looking to "upgrade", if only for a night, and even a few looking to backdoor one of us. Just goes to show that you've got to do your homework, be sure of what you are looking for, and you can't be afraid to say no, even in the middle of a play date.

 

Sorry for the minor thread hijack.

[fun4Ds 1,097]

I guess I was meaning a married male, where the wife doesn't swing at all, has no desire to be with another male or female, but yet does gives the hubby permission to play solo, and can be open with the couple he plays with, is that even possible?

[jcbicouple 24]

fun4Ds said:

I guess I was meaning a married male, where the wife doesn't swing at all, has no desire to be with another male or female, but yet does gives the hubby permission to play solo, and can be open with the couple he plays with, is that even possible?

 

It is possible, but in our experience, rare. See our earlier post. We do play separately on occasion, and know of others that do as well.

[Fastdogs 17]

Driven2Please, I'm curious: Why are you seeking the approval of people you don't even know? If you are planning to be decitful to your wife about your activities, what drives you to be open and honest with the folks on this forum?

 

My wife and I had a very honest discussion about our needs and desires a couple of years ago. Since then, we have had to work out the details of a developing (and I must say a very exciting and extremely satisfying) alternative relationship. It hasn't always been easy, because communication never is. But I can say that had she, or I, gone off and explored the lifestyle without the other's permission, our marrage would be over now. It wouldn't be because of the sex either of us had, but because of the deception.

 

You are the best judge of what the outcome of your actions might be, but you should certainly consider the loss of your marriage to be one very strong possibility.

[fun4Ds 1,097]

I'm a little slow but after reading your link spoo, yes we have found that "ONE GUY" and he was certainly all of the good things in your post, except I'm not giving up my pin #

 

But still wouldn't the true "married with permission unicorn" be a possibility? Surely he wouldn't stink, slip in the back door or drip shit on the seat. after all he would have to answer to his wife? I would think he would want a good report from us.

 

The part about a Harley just being a bike, OUCH that hurt my feelers.

[Spoomonkey 418]

fun4Ds said:

I'm a little slow but after reading your link spoo, yes we have found that "ONE GUY" and he was certainly all of the good things in your post,

 

fun4Ds said:

but still wouldn't the true "married with permission unicorn" be a possibility? surely he wouldn't stink, slip in the back door or drip shit on the seat. after all he would have to answer to his wife? i would think he would want a good report from us.

 

If he were a part of a couple we knew - sure - maybe. But to go out and look for him just seems like a real pain in the ass. Not only would we have to meet him - we'd also have to meet his wife. And let me tell you our antenna would be up.

 

Are there any problems here that we can pick up on?

 

Is she into this or just letting him have his fun?

 

Is she just waiting for some ammunition to lose this guy?

 

I honestly think we'd be too concerned with the back story to give the guy a fair shake.

[Chicup 38]

fun4Ds said:

but still wouldn't the true "married with permission unicorn" be a possibility? Surely he wouldn't stink, slip in the back door or drip shit on the seat. after all he would have to answer to his wife? i would think he would want a good report from us.

 

Spoomonkey said:

If he were a part of a couple we knew - sure - maybe. But to go out and look for him just seems like a real pain in the ass. Not only would we have to meet him - we'd also have to meet his wife. And let me tell you our antenna would be up.

 

For one couple we know I am that unicorn (and here I thought that term only applied to single females ), but they have been our friends for a number of years. Now I would think that in the ideal world a married 'extra male' (single doesn't work here) would be ideal, but the reality is that the arrangement would be so rare that you would have to be very careful like spoo said.

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

On honesty 10

 

On (current) character 10

 

On communication:

 

I still stand my ground until I see posts that indcate otherwise. However, that subject is now put to rest as you have no wish to pursue. I respect your wishes.

 

Welcome and continue to post your thoughts as you see fit

[Driven2please 15]

Guys (both male and female),

I truly would love to stick around. This lifestyle fascinates the heck out of me. But I don't think I will ever see me being able to participate. And I certainly don't want to be viewed as a lurker. Maybe I'll drop in to say hi once in a while. (Imagine the kid sitting in the yard watching the other kids in the pool)

 

I just wish that I could convince the wife. And you are correct. It would be devastating to even consider going outside the boundaries on my own. I am sure she would agree to it,well 99%, but I have a gut feeling she would resent that she gave approval. And I wouldn't be too thrilled at causing her the pain. The pleasure is just not worth the potential.

 

I think it would be a wonderful present to her, to fulfill her fantasies, but she has told me hundreds of times that there is no act that she desires, that we haven't done. She has contemplated scenarios, but in no way shape or form does she desire pursuing them. She has a BIG hangup with menage' trois. Even 2 guys in the same room taking turns. She really isn't into toys, and feels self-conscious with them. Personally, I love seeing her with them. Told her hundreds of times. She just can't get past the religious view of it.

 

Fastdog, if you looked at my posts, I was not looking for any approvals. I was more pointing out that , IN MY OPINION, the married guys (and single for that matter) were looked upon as pariah. Both here and in SLS. It was disheartening. You were very fortunate to be able to have your wife agree to this lifestyle. Unfortunately, I am not at this time. But I was enlightened to many of the troubles that couple find when seeking a male for their "party". I never gave that portion any consideration. I understand more now, and have come to the conclusion that I will not be able to participate, unless she has a major change of heart. I realize I couldn't do it without her, anyways. Not everyone can release their jealousies, and insecurities to be able to swing. So I enter limbo....

 

Please tell me, though..... Is meeting someone new, and having that encounter....does it seem like the first time you dated? The anticipation? The butterflies? The exhilaration?? Does it ever "get old" or is it always like riding the edge of a canyon? How do you feel afterwards? Gratification? Conquest? Or that first sip of coffee in the morning. Great while it is there, but no different in 30 seconds?