We messed up while at a house party

[Ready2JaM 17]

I just read most of this thread and we were once in an ongoing swinging relationship with a couple like you guys but at the time we didn't know, she was selfish and narcissistic, he was a doormat/enabler. The difference is they got into swinging as a couple and they were our firsts and vice versa. A few years later she set up a single profile on one of the sites and ended up with a boyfriend on the side, which caused their 12 year marriage to end in divorce. Her husband even offered to have a poly relationship with the two of them just to stay with her, needless to say it didn't happen. They almost outed us to our vanilla friends when she showed up to a vanilla party with her husband and boyfriend (we didn't know who he was at the time). Because of our experiences with them we took a loooooong break. Trust is essential and I think you are being an enabler because you are afraid to be alone and he is narcissistic and selfish, I've seen how this ends.....it doesn't end well.

[Earthsand347 20]

I'll start by asking you please not to flame me. Please do not think I am ignorant or stupid. I am a real-life person dealing with a real-life situation that I am shaky about. This is a person that I thought was "the One."

 

So, with that ... he said to me last week, "I'm a sexual person. Why would I want to have an affair with anyone else? We have a good sex life and you're letting me have sex with other women."

I didn't know how to feel after that. I actually am sort of interested in swinging for my own sexual reasons although going slooooowly. But, because of what he said I feel sort of trapped into really pursuing it ... just to keep him from having an affair.

 

Is that why people swing? Am I being selfish? Should I shake off the "trapped" feeling and accept it as normal and yes, he really cares for me?

(If there are those who think I should stop posting, please don't hesitate to let me know. But, would you be so gentle as to private email me that - I get embarrassed). Thank you!

[sunbuckus 3,565]

I'll start by asking you please not to flame me. Please do not think I am ignorant or stupid. I am a real-life person dealing with a real-life situation that I am shaky about. This is a person that I thought was "the One."

 

So, with that ... he said to me last week, "I'm a sexual person. Why would I want to have an affair with anyone else? We have a good sex life and you're letting me have sex with other women."

I didn't know how to feel after that. I actually am sort of interested in swinging for my own sexual reasons although going slooooowly. But, because of what he said I feel sort of trapped into really pursuing it ... just to keep him from having an affair.

 

Is that why people swing? Am I being selfish? Should I shake off the "trapped" feeling and accept it as normal and yes, he really cares for me?

(If there are those who think I should stop posting, please don't hesitate to let me know. But, would you be so gentle as to private email me that - I get embarrassed). Thank you!

 

Oh, dear, dear Earthsand...thank you for continuing to come back and let us know how you are doing. People swing for many reasons and I'm not going to lie to you and say that there are no swingers that swing for the reason of avoiding affairs--there are but you also need to know that it is not the reason the majority of swingers swing. Some explore swinging as a way to to act out fantasies. Others swing because they have the opinion that monogamy isn't natural. Others swing because they enjoy seeing each other being pleasured, whether it is from themselves or others. And many, many other reasons.

 

However, feeling "trapped" or "tricked" or "manipulated" is not something you should really be feeling when you are in a relationship...in any relationship. I can understand why this is a difficult situation for you. You're married, you have a family with this person, and the unknown--the future--can be a scary place when you've been with someone for a long time and you can't imagine life without them, even if they treat you badly or make you feel the way that you feel right now.

 

Have you two been communicating and talking at all about how each of you feel about swinging and all topics related, especially what you have written here? There's only so much we can do, dear...eventually, you have to take steps to take care of yourself and your needs. *hugs*

[confused12524 201]

I think its something that will always be an issue. I have always had very active varied sexual interests and have always known I wanted to act on them. I also knew that most, not all, but most women would probably not be interested. When I met my wife, what for me was looking for fun, we did really connect. Very early on I did communicate my interests and views. I didn't want to get "serious" and end up in a situation that I would have regrets.

 

To my surprise she came across very interested and we did actively play for quite a while. Over the years now, that has dwindled to nothing. After a baby, her sex drive even for us is non existant. Mine however has substantially increased. Looking at our past activities I see them as "dipping our toes in the water" and she sees "we've done it all and then some"

 

So there is a dramatic difference in our views.

 

Where you talk about him not wanting an affair. That makes perfect sense. Our relationship is so perfect in every other way that I would never dream of anything else. I don't think you could find 2 more compatible people.

 

At the same time though. I can't help that what's missing really nags at me. I'm stuck because one one hand I say "I'm not the bad guy" because I have always from day one been overly upfront and honest about this. At the same time, I certainly don't want her to "give in" simply to make me happy. I'm sure she has done that before and I don't want that.

 

The very turn on for me is her own personal interest. Without her personally desiring it, its pointless.

 

I don't blame her. She would do anything for me. If I pushed the issue, she would do it. But I won't do that. She has every right to her own feelings and her own body.

 

In our case, its just a situation with no answer.

Nobody is wrong. We're just mismatched sexually.

 

She is wayyy more important to me than sex play. But I would be lying if I said it doesn't remain a problem under the surface. She changed, I didn't. So that in my mind justifies my nagging feelings. But at the same time, she is my wife, forever, and nothing will take priority over her.

[Gordo 617]

Sadly you've been told multiple times by multiple people that what is happening here isn't swinging. It's a wife being coerced into having sex and or allowing hubby to have his own way. It's just plain wrong and doesn't reflect a loving, respectful relationship.

 

Experienced swingers are VERY good at detecting reluctant wives and avoiding the couple.

 

You seem to be unable to stand up for yourself and just say NO! With that in mind I would genuinely recommend you taking some empowerment courses where they teach you to be your own person and how to stand up and say no when things don't suit you. I've seen other people take them and it has worked wonders.

 

If you needed to understand computers you'd go take a course and learn. If you're having trouble handling a relationship, focus on the weak point and work on that. I'd also recommend some counselling, perferably from a lifestyle friendly counsellor.

[Earthsand347 20]

Let me begin this by saying it's not that easy to give up on a relationship that I've built over several years because of what has happened in the past 6 months. Plus I am interested in swinging and it's not easy to find someone in a mostly-vanilla world who wants to swing. So, maybe I'm an idiot but I haven't given up hope that this might work out.

That being said, we went on vacation a few weeks ago. Went to a club. Song wasn't great for me for dancing, so I sat out the first 3 songs. Then, it got better.

I danced on the pole.

I danced with other girls.

I danced topless.

But, we got "no action." He and I had sex with each other. He was still frustrated.

1. He blamed me because he said we gave a bad 1st impression when I didn't dance from the beginning, I was "cowering," he said.

2. He was so frustrated for about a week after that on looking at his phone for a restaurant I found (in front of him) a page advertising "body rubs/sensual massages" in the city we lived in. He admitted that he was on the verge of visiting one of these places, but didn't when he thought about "how much he loved" me.

 

So, now I am getting worried that his getting "no action" might in the future lead to him not being able to stop himself from visiting a paid sex worker. I feel sorta trapped.

Am I being paranoid??? I don't want to think that. I'm trying to think the best.

[GoldCoCouple 4,014]

I know it's hard to give up on a relationship and I'm sorrier that I've had to suggest it, but (IMHO) this is all just a form of mental abuse. Sitting out the first three songs before dancing...I highly doubt that anyone there noticed (we wouldn't have so you don't lose any points for this). It sounds like when you did start dancing, you really upheld your end...even dancing topless (not only did you score points for dancing, more for dancing with other women, you scored big bonus points for dancing topless). You got no action...so what? When you go to a (vanilla singles type) bar for the first time, is it a fail if you don't find someone? This is just stupid (his stupidity, not yours). What I heard is that the two of you went out to a (LS) club, you danced and danced topless for everyone (grrrrr), had sex and a great time. We would call that a win and a good night.

 

This is supposed to be something that is a positive experience that you both enjoy and brings the two of you closer together. The fact that my woman is interested in allowing us to pursue this course means more to me than the actual pursuit. If I EVER thought her feelings would be hurt or her security in our relationship jeopardized, we would STOP and I would never look back. I would NEVER do anything that would hurt her no matter how much I wanted something (I want her MORE than anything else). It still sounds like you are not that important and you are willing to shoulder the 'blame' for him not getting what he wants (as previously stated by others, he's childish).

 

There are all kinds of people in the LS...some are good people, some are just looking for a replacement or are cheaters trying to wrap themselves as 'swingers'. While yours is only one side of the story, I just don't hear the love, trust, communication and respect that 'swingers' have for their partners. We wish you the best but his insecurities and child like behavior are not your fault. You deserve better...

[sunbuckus 3,565]

Hi, Earthsand. I know this sounds cruel, but I really do look forward to the day you come back and update us that you have found the courage within yourself to leave your boyfriend because you have finally determined that you are worthy of much more than this. I want you to finally realize how much you have to offer in a relationship and what you deserve in a relationship and you won't get it from this boyfriend. I know that walking away will hurt and it's not easy but there are just so many red flags that you have shared with us the past 6 months that I bet there are even more in the non-swinging areas of your relationship. In fact, I would say it's highly illogical that he would be the perfect, loving, unselfish boyfriend in all aspects of your relationship except for this one area. Based on what you have shared, he has been placing his needs above the needs of you and the relationship. That's not how to conduct a relationship and I suspect that he doesn't even know how to be in a relationship since he eventually went out to "swing" without his ex-wife in his previous relationship and he immediately wanted to jump into swinging with you in the first month of dating you.

 

You remind me so much of my younger self...I didn't think very much of myself and even entertained thoughts of self-destruction. I was willing to accept anyone who loved me because I didn't think I was even lovable or worthy of love. This sort of mindset will lead you to do things you don't want to do for this person who loves you or allow them to treat you a certain way. And if they treat you in a contemptible way, you feel like they should because that's what you are worth in your own mind. But it's not true. You are smart. You are caring. You are giving and generous. You are thoughtful. You are loving. Tell me...isn't that a person that deserves to be with someone who has those same qualities?

 

In the end, this really has nothing to do with swinging. This has every thing to do with:

 

-how you perceive your worth

-how he perceives your worth

-what you consider a priority

-what he considers a priority

 

From what you have graciously shared with us, it appears that you don't put much value in yourself, he doesn't put much worth in you, you don't see yourself as being a priority, and he doesn't consider you a priority (he thinks of himself and sex with others higher than you). Put all of these together and you have the situation that you are in. One partner that is willing to be a doormat for the other partner. Both partners view and treat the "less partner" as someone who isn't equal in the relationship thus their needs, desires, and feelings are discounted.

 

I hate being so harsh but I think something needs to "wake you up" so you can see what's going on here. I truly want you to see what is going on. I want you to come to the realization your true worth as a living, breathing, human being who doesn't deserve to be in a relationship that causes you so much anguish and doubt in yourself. Unfortunately, only you can "wake yourself" from this and determine that you deserve much more than what you are getting. You don't realize your own power and strength and it saddens me and I'm sure it saddens many other forum members, too.

 

 

I am interested in swinging and it's not easy to find someone in a mostly-vanilla world who wants to swing.

 

I also want to point out that it don't think it's really that hard to really find a man who would be interested in exploring the LS. If you listen to the majority of the male forum members here, they thank their lucky stars for their wives who were interested in swinging. So, as long as you focus on the relationship first and get to a place where there is love, commitment, trust, respect, honesty, and a shared view of placing the relationship first, you won't have a hard time finding another male who will want to exploring swinging the right way (not the way your current boyfriend is going about it).

[GoldCoCouple 4,014]

If you listen to the majority of the male forum members here, they thank their lucky stars for their wives who were interested in swinging. So, as long as you focus on the relationship first and get to a place where there is love, commitment, trust, respect, honesty, and a shared view of placing the relationship first, you won't have a hard time finding another male who will want to exploring swinging the right way (not the way your current boyfriend is going about it).

 

I thank my lucky stars EVERY SINGLE DAY...and then I thank her for trusting and loving me enough to feel comfortable enough to even be able to talk about this with me (let alone take it to the next level). As I've already said, I value HER more than anything else and never forget that.

 

We hardly even know you and we can tell that you deserve better and deserve more (and I don't just mean the two of us). It's hard starting over, but it's better to do it sooner than later. While we won't tell you it's easy to find the 'right' person, we can promise you that the 'right' person is out there waiting to be found...and you don't want to miss them because you were with the wrong person.

[intuition897 2,177]

Earthsand, I have to concur with the opinions of others here. This is, of course, your life and ultimately it is you who has to live with the choices you make. But if you an outside opinion is what you are looking for, an unbiased perspective, this is what we see: we see a woman who has a genuine interest in carefully exploring her sexuality (which is the wisest course of action!!), who is open-minded and willing to go outside of her comfort zone, but who is not willing to compromise her feelings of self-worth for anyone or anything. This is normal and healthy. We also see you are doing everything you can reasonably do to make your relationship work.

 

As for your boyfriend, we see someone who, unfortunately, has it in his head that the "inevitibility" of cheating is something that is biologically driven and/or beyond his control. He does not see that it is a choice. He has the "other pussy" so built up in his head that it overrides everything. If sowing his wild oats is something he is compelled to do and something that he puts before a long-term relationship with you, in my humble opinion, it means he is unfit to participate as an equal partner in that relationship. Not judging him; it's just where he's at.

 

If it were me, I would tell him to let me know when he's gotten the "fucks" out of his system and he's ready to put your emotional needs first. Until then, I couldn't subject myself to the erosion of self that would happen in a relationship with him. I love myself too much to do that. And there's just no need. It will just make both of you unhappy. And if he gripes about how single guys never get laid in the lifestyle, you can let him know a) that it's not your problem, and b) that you now see very clearly just how little you really mean to him.

[SwingSetWife 442]

As for your boyfriend, we see someone who, unfortunately, has it in his head that the "inevitibility" of cheating is something that is biologically driven and/or beyond his control. He does not see that it is a choice.

 

The thing is, I'm not even sure he actually believes that. I think he is using the threat of cheating in order to manipulate her into swinging. "If I don't get pussy by us swinging, I will be forced to get it myself. It's just my nature." It's total bullshit.

[Earthsand347 20]

Thank you so much for your replies! I feel better in a weird way.

For the following, please be gentle. I'm sometimes so numb with a lot if this that I find it difficult to know what's right/wrong, acceptable/not, normal/not.

 

Question:I just wondered about the fact that he was so close to hooking up with a paid sex worker after being so sexually frustrated about getting "no action" means .....? And for the future, trust ....?

 

Please don't be too hard on me. I actually am learning from this forum. Really!

[81lizard69 469]

Thank you so much for your replies! I feel better in a weird way.

Question:I just wondered about the fact that he was so close to hooking up with a paid sex worker after being so sexually frustrated about getting "no action" means .....? And for the future, trust ....?

 

He is giving you some nonverbal ques on how he communicates with you. Just for example. He lets you catch him looking for paid sex online and then says he is frustated and is ready to pay for sex some where else. You seem to buy into it and do what you can to help ease him into what he wants you to do. This is a perfect example of passive aggressive behavior. I would like to add that women that are (and you might or might not be) in a abusive relationship tend to cover for the abuser. They will say he is not so bad. So on and so fourth.

 

If I did that to my wife she would kill me. Well take the house and the kids and kick me out into the street. Women that dont buy into that type of behavior that have commented here are saying he is not treating you like a equal. Men have said they would not treat their wives like that.

 

I do know that couples until they learn to communicate with their partners on what they are really doing and aligning goals with reality do under go a learning curve that feels uncomfortable at first.. but later realize that the change was for the better. Hell If you to really got on the same page and put the energy lost from deceit and manipulation you could be having a whole lot of fun.

[sunbuckus 3,565]

I'm sometimes so numb with a lot if this that I find it difficult to know what's right/wrong, acceptable/not, normal/not.

 

This worries me because of what may have happened to bring you to a position of being "so numb" and so confused that you don't know what's right/wrong, acceptable/not, normal/not. In this situation, in this relationship, with this boyfriend...in your gut, what's feels right/wrong? What feels acceptable/not? What feels normal/not? We can't really answer those for you...you have to clear the clutter in your mind and figure out the answers yourself. What feels right with one person might not be the same with another. For example, with Mr. Sun I feel comfortable if I play submissive because I know he has my interests and feelings in mind. If he causes any discomfort, he will stop to make sure I'm okay. If I were to do that with someone else that I don't know very well or someone who doesn't care about my well-being, then to me, it will feel wrong. With one, I am loved, cherished, respected, and with someone I trust. With the other, those attributes are missing and I can easily be taken advantage of. Do you see the difference?

 

 

Question:I just wondered about the fact that he was so close to hooking up with a paid sex worker after being so sexually frustrated about getting "no action" means .....?

 

Do you still have sex with him? If so, then he's acting like an asshole and following his lower head to think. "Wah, wah, wah! I'm not getting any sex with anyone else other than you. I deserve to have sex with someone else other than you. I don't care if my actions are hurting you. This is what I want. Me, me, me, me, me." Generally, I have found that if a man is getting regular sex at home, he's happy. A swinger husband sees swinger sex with other woman as icing on the cake...not the cake. They are happy with the cake and if the icing happens...then great. If it doesn't, it's no biggie.

 

If you aren't having sex together, then you two need to communicate why and how you two can work towards being more sexual intimate. Having sex with others while not having sex with each other (if you're both healthy enough to do so) is a very dangerous game to be playing.

 

 

And for the future, trust ....?

 

Do you trust him? If you don't, then you don't. Once trust is broken within a relationship, it can be incredibly hard to rebuild and you can't do it alone.

 

 

 

You both are exhibiting different types of love. Yours is an unselfish love. You are willing to sacrifice your own feelings to make him happy. His love is a selfish love. He only loves you as long as he is getting what he wants from you. How long do you want to stay with a man who is going to continue to make you miserable until he finally gets fed up with you because you are a barrier to what he wants? Honestly, this is going to end up one of two ways.

 

1. You stay with him until he dumps you.

2. You stay with him until you come to your senses and dump him.

 

The question is how much misery do you want to endure before either of those occur? Do you really want to waste spending more years on this relationship when you could be happier (with another person or just being single--there's nothing wrong with being single!)?

 

 

I asked you a lot of questions because that's what I think you need to do...ask yourself some really hard questions. We can't answer them for you. You need to figure out what you want and what you are willing to do to get it. If you truly want to stay with your boyfriend, then I guess you better ask yourself how much more of yourself you are willing to give up just to stay with him. But I would hate to see you reduced to just the shell of a person because that's where I see this going if you stay.

[SwingSetWife 442]

I think it is very telling that you have come here, acknowledged that you have gotten some good advice, and EVERYONE that has responded has tried to tell you the same thing (that this situation is NOT NORMAL), and you still have to ask us if it is normal. I am not trying to be too hard on you. I am just not going to handle you with kid gloves when I think you are in an abusive and potentially dangerous (escalating to physical abuse...?) situation. I have been there, I know exactly what it looks like, and honey, this is it.

[Lionheart72 2,186]

Question:I just wondered about the fact that he was so close to hooking up with a paid sex worker after being so sexually frustrated about getting "no action" means .....? And for the future, trust ....?

 

OK, my knee jerk reaction is about what you'll have come to expect from me... I think he's a selfish manipulative asshole who is trying to control you through fear, you shouldn't trust him and your future will be better with out him.

 

All of that said, let's take a breath and think. Why is he so sexually frustrated when you said earlier that you two did have sex? He didn't get "no action." He got you.

[GoldCoCouple 4,014]

We have tried not to be hard on you, it sounds like you already have someone taking care of that. Still, we hope that you see this is NOT NORMAL. Can you imaging spending the rest of your life with this man? Since you first started seeing him, has he gotten better, stayed the same, or gotten worse in his demands? Is this the life you want to live? Don't you deserve more?

 

Stolen from above from Sunbuckus:

 

Honestly, this is going to end up one of two ways.

 

1. You stay with him until he dumps you.

2. You stay with him until you come to your senses and dump him.

 

The question is how much misery do you want to endure before either of those occur? Do you really want to waste spending more years on this relationship when you could be happier?

 

Add: Do you really want to possibly miss meeting the perfect guy for you because you were wasting time on this guy?

 

You aren't married so there's not really anything other than emotions keeping you together (still a very large and difficult step) but do deserve more and better and there is plenty more and better out there. A bird in the hand may be worth two in the bush, but you have a skunk...let it go.

[Earthsand347 20]

Thank you thank you thank you for your responses!! I can't thank you enough - truly.

I have tried to be accurate and complete about what's happened. It would be easy to be a hater and be negative but I hungered for true advice based on true happenings.

And I am thankful.

 

Just tonight he got upset at me because I had to get up early this morning to do something I wanted to do for myself.

He said if I got up so early to do that it meant I was choosing that over potentially doing something with him because I would be too sleepy otherwise. I asked him what that "something with him" was and he said, "Going to the swingers' club."

Just updating just because I wanted to and because I feel this board cares. I just can't go anywhere else with all these things. It's ok - not asking for comments, just ... this is my life.

I have read and re-read your comments and will continue to re-read.

And not just reading, but really listening and considering what my next steps will be.

Humbly, I thank you.

[SW_PA_Couple 4,019]

Whichever direction your situation might turn, I'll send you my wish that you finish in a happy place.

[GoldCoCouple 4,014]

We wish you the best as well and we'll always be here to help in whatever manor we can. Both of us came from long term (20+ year) bad relationships so we've both been there and done that. That's what makes the relationship we now have with each other so very special and valuable. We know how bad it can be, but we also know how great it can be when you find your match. Still, this is something that you much find yourself. We can only help, but we are more than happy to help. Keep us up to date and we will keep you in our thoughts.

[Earthsand347 20]

I will begin again by saying thank you thank you thank you!!! to everybody who's commented, given me advice (even advice I don't always want to hear, but maybe need to) and support.

 

An update. We have had a few more of these famous arguments about his sexual hunger.

So, tonight I told him I just don't feel comfortable swinging with him - trust issues, etc.

 

Him : I need a sexual outlet then if you're controlling me by telling me I can't swing.

Me: What outlets?

Him: Lap dances at strip clubs. Massage parlors with "body rubs." Maybe more.

All by myself.

Me: I'm not comfortable with that.

Him: if you restrain me, I can't tell you I won't resent you for that.

 

My head is spinning again.

Leave this situation, right? (Should have left already?)

Red flags?

Or ....?

 

Thank you for being patient with me as I struggle

[sunbuckus 3,565]

Pack up and leave. Now.

[Lionheart72 2,186]

Him: Give me what I want.

You: What do you want?

Him: Sex with hookers, whenever I want.

You: I'm not comfortable with that.

Him: That's why I'm threatening you with it. Give me what I want or else.

 

Leave now. Red flags everywhere. No or's, if's and's or but's.

[SwingSetWife 442]

Let me ask you this- if he punched you in the face, would you have to ask us if you should leave?

 

He is emotionally punching you in the face.

[intuition897 2,177]

Well kudos to him for his brass-knuckles-in-your-face honesty. I guess.

 

Change is uncomfortable, I know. But this guy seems to have all but come right out and TOLD you that putting his penis in a stranger's body is more important to him than how you feel about it. If it were me, I'd say that's fine, but since I'm uncomfortable with that, and you don't seem to give a flying fuck about my comfort level, I just don't see the point in staying. A relationship is supposed to be about two people who care as much (and maybe more) about their partner's needs than their own. This relationship does not seem to have that hallmark. Thus it's not a real adult relationship.

 

I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty pissed by now. The $64,000 question seems to be (no offense intended, just putting myself in your shoes): why the hell does he even want to be in a relationship with you in the first place? Apparently you're just holding him back from all that ass he could be getting. Or could it be that you're the ticket to getting more ass? Predatory single men with a low maturity level and raging, barely-controlled hard-ons are - shall we say - "unpopular" in clubs. They have a slightly better chance of getting laid if they are part of a couple. But even then, I could smell a guy like this a mile away, and it wouldn't matter if he looked like Brad Pitt. He would still be thoroughly unattractive to me.

 

Earthsand, I don't routinely tell people to dump their partner, but this guy is obviously making you miserable and is shamefully disrespectful to you. He probably needs to be cut loose to see that the single life isn't as glorious as he thinks it is. Maybe after some soul-searching he'll gain the maturity needed to participate in a real relationship with you. As you have described him, I don't think he's ready for that. Having to end a relationship is always painful, but you can either prolong the pain, or you can just rip off the bandaid. Whatever you decide to do, we hope you'll continue to come back to keep us updated.

 

Shit, I hope I haven't been too blunt here.

[Glida 250]

I have to add something to the great advice that you've been given...

 

My head is spinning again.-----That's his plan, players and preditors rely on the fact that you're confused right now and might actually be thinking that you have to accomodate his wiley ways!

Leave this situation, right? (Should have left already?) Red flags? ------Thats your inner voice, the one that pipes up when we know instincively that something doesn't smell right! And you know you are worth more than this!

Or ....? ----That's fear. When in reality you wouldn't be giving anything up, only the idea of who you want him to be. When someone shows you who they really are, believe them!

[sunbuckus 3,565]

Earthsand, I was curt in my earlier response because it didn't seem to me that long responses with detailed reasons of why all of this is not healthy for you has really caught your attention to take action. I seriously felt that some thing simple and to the point would help...but just in case it doesn't (or if someone in your similar situation comes upon your thread), I'll expand a bit on my personal reason why you should leave...and you should leave NOW.

 

You probably have a thousand reasons why you don't want to leave but for your self esteem, for your mental well-being, and for your physical well-being, you need to leave this man. If you happen to have children with him, take them as well and stay somewhere safe.

 

1. If you stay with him and continue down this path, he sounds like the type that can escalate into physical violence. Obviously, this isn't good for you and if you have children, it isn't good for them to see or witness such violence. There is a possibility that they will see such behavior and treat their future partners in the same manner.

 

2. For yourself (and if you have kids), this mental and emotional abuse is taking it's toll on you. You don't know how or when to stand up for yourself. You don't respect yourself. You might not even love yourself because if you did, you would see that this isn't a healthy relationship for you and you deserve better.

 

3. If you have children living with you with this man, they know that you shouldn't be with him. Believe me, they are smarter than you think and are more perceptive than we give them credit. Don't stay with him for the children's sake. The children can see how abusive the situation is and want the safety of their mother. If you continue to stay with this man, you are also setting an example that this type of relationship is acceptable. Do you want this same type of relationship for your children when they are older?

 

My real life experience...I have witnessed my father screaming, yelling, and insulting my mother. I have seen her cower, I have seen her tears, and I have seen her suffer emotionally and mentally in being abused in this way. As far as I know, he never physically hurt her but that doesn't make the wounds any less painful. I always wanted to know why she stayed with him. When I was old enough to move out, I stayed as long as I could so I could "protect" her. Yet she still stayed. I have always, and still feel, that they should have separated. I know that humans aren't perfect but their relationship with each other is not healthy or good for either of them. To this day (in fact, just a few days ago), she still comes to me about how he treats her. I can't do anything to prevent what is going on. She has to be the one to recognize that she deserves better and have the courage to walk away.

 

Did you get that? She has to make that decision. I have tried really, really, really hard to lay it all out for you how this whole situation appears to us and how we all know you should walk away but it doesn't do a damn bit of good unless you make that decision and walk out.

[Glida 250]

Earthsand I was in an abusive realtionship for 11 years before I married my amazing beautiful Mr G...I was manipulated, humiliated, pushed, shoved, name called, ignored and strangelled on one particular nasty occasion and generally disrespected. Why did I stay? because I was a victim! I learnt though that being a victim doesn't come from what somebody does to you, it's a state of mind, its what you believe about yourself....Are you a victim?

[tribbles 490]

For you to find what you want, you are going to have to leave him and find it with someone else who wants what you do.

 

He wants something else.

 

You want to stay with him? then just tell him he can do anything he wants and you will do anything you want. Total freedom.

If you don't like what he does, then choose to do nothing with him that puts you at risk based on what he is doing.

 

If you really are uncomfortable enough with his choices, you will leave.

[SwingSetWife 442]

For you to find what you want, you are going to have to leave him and find it with someone else who wants what you do.

 

He wants something else.

 

You want to stay with him? then just tell him he can do anything he wants and you will do anything you want. Total freedom.

If you don't like what he does, then choose to do nothing with him that puts you at risk based on what he is doing.

 

If you really are uncomfortable enough with his choices, you will leave.

This is good advice, assuming that it would actually work. My guess is that it won't though. He has no respect for her or their relationship. No matter what she "gives" him, it will probably never be enough and he is likely to leave when the next shiny object crosses his path. We all need to stop assuming that this post (and this man) have anything to do with sex or swinging or anything in between. This is about control. I'd be willing to bet a lot that this is not the only topic in their relationship that has these types of issues. The OP has asked us to be gentle, but we have tried and the point just isn't getting through that way. We have been not gentle and the point still isn't getting through.

 

To OP- please believe me when I say that I am deeply sorry that you find yourself in this situation. I do not have any vested interest in you staying or leaving this relationship, nor does anyone else here. We are not trying to be mean. We can just see the writing on the wall without the emotions to cloud our judgement. I believe that you honestly know what you should do but you just have not reached the point where you can. But the answers to your questions are not going to change . NO! THIS IS NOT NORMAL OR HEALTHY! It took me 10 years to grow enough balls to take charge of what I wanted and needed out of my relationship, so I understand your hesitation. I just hope it doesn't take you as long to figure out that this is not a good place for you. You need to decide if this is something you are willing to put up with for the long haul.

[81lizard69 469]

Trust is a amazing thing. You trusted him to be the man you wanted him to be.. but when you finally rellized that he Is not the one.. You can shift that trust that the next relationship will be better. You did not marry this man and so you can chalk this up to a practice relationship that you can build on for the next one. I know when you have a pat hand. Or situation you are use to it can seem scary to give up that and move on to another one. When ever I have traded out of a situation that was not good the next one was better. I am sure you will be fine.

 

It is awesome that you come to a place and take advice from others. You have made friend here that will support you through the next one if you like. We hope the best for..

 

Good luck.

[confused12524 201]

At this point its time to get serious. I understand the guy. I know whats going on in his head. I can relate to him exactly. I have told my story here.

Understanding and relating however does not mean its right. He has NO FEAR of you leaving, and will likely crumble the second you do.

 

From my personal experience, his feelings, thoughts, and desires are NOT going to change...EVER

 

The choices are not great here.

 

You put your foot down and it will either blow up, or he will take it underground. He wont "reform"

or

You find a compromise and go along with it.

In my case, for a while, I acted like your man. Not quite as "in your face" but enough that you and my wife could probably finish eachothers sentences in many cases.

 

We got into swinging and playing for a while early on in our relationship. We BOTH enjoyed it. The problem was that I did go overboard with it and made it a priority. It became a mission for a friday or saturday night.

 

That changed the whole dynamic of our "playing" What really was fun for my wife, became a turnoff, and she simply played along for a while but ultimately "getting out of it" whenever possible. That only made it more of a mission for me.

Bottom line is I did "wake up" and realize what the hell I was doing. I dropped the subject for quite a while and then I brought it up to talk with her about it. Not like I used to....This time to ask her real honest feelings.

 

What I wanted to know is why she seemed to really love it and be the instigator a lot in the beginning, and now we just dont do it anymore at all and cant even touch the subject.

 

I was struggling because I had infact been upfront and honest about my desires from very early on when we met. I didnt spring this on her later on. I knew my desires wouldnt go away so I wanted to make sure if I were going to be with someone, that we both shared those interests. In the beginning it was great. Then later on, when it slowed and then stopped, resentment built. I felt cheated. I felt that "Here we are years later, married, house, etc....and NOW Im stuck....SHE changed"

For the first time in years we had a civil conversation about it.

What I learned is that she REALLY LIKES playing.

 

The problem?

 

The major turn-on and thrill for her is when things "just happen" Thats the excitement. The most fun times we've had for both of us have been chance encounters where "one thing lead to another" ...... Hanging out with g-rated friends in a hot tub, few drinks, convo turns a little dirty, and next thing you know were at it.

 

That stuff is my favorite too!

 

What she HATES is "The Hunt"

Putting up an ad or going on a swinger site with the purpose of finding someone for a scheduled playdate.

 

Ads and sites are fine. She enjoys them too. She has no problem with using those sites to meet people and put us in a situation that would be conducive to going further.

The second that turn into a MISSION. It loses all of its appeal.

 

I agree!!!!!

 

So with a little communication we understand eachother and we both get exactly what we each want and neither one of us has to "give in" to anything. We found out we both like the same things....>We both want to play....I simply needed to turn the priority dial down a few notches and let nature take its course.

 

Its been great ever since.

 

We dont play often....But when we do its awesome for both of us.....So much different than in the past.

 

Its SOOOOO much more fun knowing my wife is 100% into it and wants it!

I am happy with the topic being open and possible, and that removed all my anxiety about pushing it.

We can talk about it on the same page, and she no longer needs to have that wall up.

 

Now, if in fact she came out and said "I dont like it, at all, ever and I dont want either of us to have anything to do with it" I know it wouldnt have had the same outcome. I would have had to be realistic and make a decision.

 

My personal belief is that if you DO have interest and enjoyment but he is killing that.....Then you need to find a way to communicate that and see if you can get on the same page.

 

If you feel the other way and simply want monogamy, with both of you....And have no interest in anything else....

Then its probably time to leave......

 

HOPEFULLY, he could change his attitude and approach like I did, but he WONT be able to change his thoughts and desires and make it all go away.

 

So I think either swinging on better terms is in your future, or separation.

 

But one side note. DONT GIVE IN!! Dont do anything you dont want to do. DONT compromise.

You either come to a mutual agreement of something you both enjoy...or dont do it at all!

[81lizard69 469]

Sounds like you are both going in different directions and that is ok.. If you split up and find out you made a mistake breaking up that is the easiest mistake to fix. You just get back together.

 

Communication here is key. I have done couples therapy and after you are done with the dumping how you feel part of the meeting communicating takes on a new meaning. I heard her say that you told her that you will continue having sexual partners weather she likes it our not. I hear you saying that she started it. You like it and dont want her to stop. She says that you keep wanting to

and bugging her about. You think you are just asking her about it. But she said no.

You sound like you are a mile off from what she wants.. I know its hard to to swing. I went through a couple operations. (nothing Big) but we had to stop for a while. My libido went down. Hers went through the roof. It was hard for her not getting it while I recovered both times. But we made it.

 

If my wife said.. No more swinging. That would be it. I would buy a new toy and let my energy go there. Sexual energy is a creative force that needs to be channeled. Just stopping can be hard and that void will need to be filled. You do not have to look at porn. Not saying you do .. but that is torture when you are not getting it like you were.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Put her needs first and your will be filled greater than you could ever have dreamed for yourself.

[GoldCoCouple 4,014]

If Ms. Gold said she wanted to stop swinging, I would stop and just savor the memories. I wouldn't do anything to hurt her or take even a small chance at losing her. She is and always be more important than ANYTHING else, especially sex without love or commitment. Swinging is like salt or any other seasoning...it makes whatever it is put on more flavorful, but eaten by itself it is unfulfilling and leaves you wanting more.

[intuition897 2,177]

My personal belief is that if you DO have interest and enjoyment but he is killing that.....Then you need to find a way to communicate that and see if you can get on the same page.

 

If you feel the other way and simply want monogamy, with both of you....And have no interest in anything else....

Then its probably time to leave......

 

But one side note. DONT GIVE IN!! Dont do anything you dont want to do. DONT compromise.

You either come to a mutual agreement of something you both enjoy...or dont do it at all!

 

Nothing like the voice of experience! I especially like the part about the possibility that you might actually be okay with swinging, just not with his dog-at-the-end-of-a-leash attitude about it. His approach to swinging is NOT the way it's supposed to work; not a good way to judge the lifestyle.

[Billleif 18]

Am I the only one who thinks the OP is just getting off on having dozens of people spend hundreds of collective hours reading about her problem and giving her the same advice to leave that she could have found on the first page?

[intuition897 2,177]

Am I the only one who thinks the OP is just getting off on having dozens of people spend hundreds of collective hours reading about her problem and giving her the same advice to leave that she could have found on the first page?

 

Could be. But these posts aren't just for her; they're for anyone else going through the same thing. Every time she comes back, she posts another gem of a quote from her partner. Someone else reading this could be in denial, saying to her (or him)self 'that's not really my situation, X never said that'. If you're really stuck on someone, you're clinging to anything to keep yourself from realizing the truth and so you deny, deny, deny. Until finally there are simply so many things you can't deny any more, the truth is inescapable. This fine-grit sandpaper approach to problems is, yes, tedious when others realize that an axe would do the job instantly, but it's not our problem is it? If she wants to use sandpaper to cut down that tree, that's her choice. Though I agree...the axe would be quicker.

[Earthsand347 20]

Hey there. Appreciate your commenting, Billlief.

 

I actually wish that you could walk in my shoes (or my stilettos as the case may be) any given day when I've really really struggled with this issue.

I wish that you could see how my face looks as I am frustrated, angry, crying about what to do.

I wish you had a timer so that you could make note of the hours and hours literally that I have spent arguing, discussing, laying out points on what I am ultimately seeing could be pointless unless we both make major changes.

I wish you could have gone with me to all these swinger events and seen me trying so hard to talk myself into being totally OK with whatever happened weekend after weekend.

I wish you could be by my side to watch how difficult this roller-coaster of a journey has been. Just when I think we might be doing well, some other issue pops up.

I wish you could understand how I have truly struggled in a relationship that I thought was "The One."

 

I have no one else to talk to about this. Who am I going to tell about swinging? My mother, my sister, my friends at church?

This is the only place that I have been able to let loose about all details and sit in the hot seat and be able to accept all comments, all judgments. I'm willing to take this - good, bad, anything. Believe me, there have been more than a few occasions in which I find myself sitting at the laptop wondering if I should post something because people might be bored or think I'm beating my head against a brick wall and not listening or like you think I'm doing this for my own glorification. Then, I usually post with some reluctance anyway because I need help! I thought that's why people came to the forums - to ask for opinions, to bounce things, to feel validated (or not).

That's all.

I'm just a girl in a not-so-great situation who is finding it difficult to just ax my relationship. I'm a real person with a real dilemma who is trying to think through all angles before I make a decision I may or may not regret. I have come back to this thread multiple times not to hear myself talk, but rather to go through everyone's opinions because I value them all.

Even yours.

[Billleif 18]

Hi Earthsand, I can definitely appreciate all the turmoil that you describe because a couple years ago I went through a tumultuous relationship with a girlfriend who had mental / abuse issues that made her intermittently wonderful as well as a nightmare to be with, often within the same day. And I often asked for advice from friends when the newest iteration of her crazy reared it's head in our relationship, so I completely understand that as well. I stayed in the relationship for a miserable year, trying to support her because I was trying to help her, hoping she would get better and we could eventually live the fairy tale lifestyle that I felt like we deserved. But I finally realized that all the ups and down were never going to have a happy ending, because I was just along for the ride on her never ending rollercoaster (I've often described it as that so I perked up when you described yours that way as well!).

 

I just say all that to let you know that I do have sympathy for where you're coming from, I just don't know if there's any additional benefit to receiving new advice to each dip and drop in the relationship that this guy subjects you to, when it's all just part of being on that same rollercoaster. So it's like if my girlfriend abuses me by punching me in the arm, and I ask for advice on what to do. Then she punches me in the chest and I ask for advice on what to do. Then she punches me in the back and I ask for advice on what to do. Ultimately the advice is the same for each instance of abuse... summon up your dignity and find the strength walk away. So that's really all I was saying in regards to your situation, don't look at each of the indignities that he's put you through as individual infractions that can eventually be fixed. Look at it as a roller coaster that you either want to be on for the rest of your life, or you don't. You have the power to stop the constant ups and downs and say, hey I'm ready to get off for good.

 

Anyway that being said, I very much appreciate your mature response and I'm glad that you didn't take any offense at my post. You are completely right, this is a safe and accepting place to share thoughts so please do be encouraged to continue posting and engaging in thoughtful discussions such as the one you began.

[81lizard69 469]

Life is like a box of chocolates. If you taste one and do not like the way it feels dont eat it again. Same goes with friends. If you get got the quick bash right from the get go.. just dont go back. Guys look for women that will tolerate that bad behavior. That is the only dance they know.

 

Over time we have started to get to know you and feel for you. You have stayed your course and have learned along the way. Heck breaking old behaviors and replacing them with something new is not easy. I broke some old bad behaviors and at frst it was a struggle. Every time some one said something critical to me of offered up a new way to do something I resisted and felt a resentment. I had such a hold on some of the old ideas that I just did not want to let them go for fear of what would come next. As I started to change better feelings about myself and my life started happening to me. It is scary trading what you have and hoping for something better.

 

There are lots of smart women and men here that have been right where you are now and they are willing to share their experience with you . I pick people that have had wonderful things happen in their life and take what i can from them to make my life better. There are teachers out there that love to help. As you look you will learn the difference between people that want to help and people that can and do help you. Stay away from the turkeys.. If they aint got it they cant teach it.

[GoldCoCouple 4,014]

Change is hard, change is scary, change is unknown. But when you know what you have, and it's not want you want and they are not willing to change, you can either keep going on the same path or you can change. Something I remember from high school science - If you want different results, you need to use different data. Using the same data will always provide the same results.

 

It's a good thing that you are willing to stay, to try different things to make it work but you cannot make someone else do what they don't want to do (if I could, I would still be in my 1st marriage).

 

How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb? None, first the light bulb has to WANT to change (lol). He doesn't want to change...and I'm so very sorry about that.

[Earthsand347 20]

I hope I'm not being too egotistical, but I wanted to update my situation and (selfishly) feel support or go in the corner because I received some I-told-you-sos.

I'm the one who's guy was having difficulties essentially taking care of me throughout our swinging experience.

Last night (I'm crying) I discovered a secret email account. The upshot is that he was planning to meet up at a hotel with a woman he met online. We never discussed the "okayness" of something like this. He admitted he wanted a fun sexual experience. This was a woman 20 years his junior who is not married and had a baby a year ago. He said he felt he could keep it under control. They didn't supposedly end up meeting in March because her flight was cancelled.

However, not only that he and she continued to text even up to 2 days ago in which she essentially said she wanted to give him oral sex.

I am so very sad.

I feel that swingers have a code of ethics even about trust and full communication.

He was the one that said several months ago that if he couldn't swing he would be sexually frustrated and need an outlet. Well, I guess that's what happened.

I am stupid stupid stupid

Thanks for all your support throughout.

[intuition897 2,177]

I am stupid stupid stupid

 

No. You're human. You were hopeful. As the song goes, "The heart wants what it wants." And when it cannot have what it wants, it cannot conceive of the alternative, and it shatters. I am most sincerely sorry that you are going through this right now.

[MrDiscover 802]

I'm very sorry for you but I do hope this is the border you will not move a bit further just to keep him but see this ordinary cheating as crossing your last border and leave him. He does not respect you now or in the future and you deserve better. Don't waste time and tears and much more on this guy. And stop being and/or feeling a victim.

[sunbuckus 3,565]

Earthsand, I'm sure I speak for everyone here that we are saddened about your situation. But the question you should be asking yourself is: What are you going to do from here to change your situation?

[Lionheart72 2,186]

Thanks for all your support throughout.

 

We are here for you, my friend. We are here for you.

[funcoupledayton 2,707]

I'm sorry you've spent almost a year dealing with this sad situation.

 

I hope you know that you have our support in leaving him and having a happy, fulfilled life on your own. I'm sure you have friends and family who will stand by you and help you through the tough times after the break-up. You need to recognize that you are enough and you deserve so much better.

[strawberrypeach 15]

your boyfriend really messed up... if he was truly thoughtful the first time would have been to make sure you had a good first experience, not to feel manipulated into him being allowed to fuck someone else. I hope this was just a moment of weekness, but for this to work he needs to recognize that you are a first timer and he needs to honor your process and need to take it slow.

 

He totally cut off any trust and respect he had for you. If I was you I would say that the relationship is to stay closed for the next 6 months to re establish trust and then after that, to start doing soft swap same room or some girl/girl stuff if that's what you're into. If he's not into that, I think you guys have a difficult decision ahead of you.