We messed up while at a house party

[Gordo 617]

I think thats a pretty over reaching use of the word. There are activities of mine, that if my wife said "its that or me" I'd be looking for an apartment because it would be unreasonable of her to expect me to give them up. Addictions are a disease, they cause changes in your brain, a dependency of sorts. This to me sounds like hes just being a dillweed.

 

Do those activities hurt your significant other, if so shame on you for continuing although I do not have the sense of you that you would. If they don't then no I wouldn't give them up either.

 

In this case he wants the relationship and also wants to swing despite the damage to the relationship. That means the relationship is subjugated to the damaging activity and that is why I call it addictive.

 

I would never have a problem giving up swinging for my wife as she is the HIGHEST priority in my life.

[sunbuckus 3,565]

Despite all that, when we got to the actual "full swap" episode there were many things that went wrong and have left me feeling bad about the whole situation.

 

What happened during the full swap?

 

As to why I have not brought him to the board partly it's because I feel I want to see what he will do on his own. To me that way I could get a truer picture of what he wants to do not under the influence.

 

I'm also honestly a little scared about how he will react to all the opinions of him. Our relationship is at the moment kinda if-fy anyway and i'm scared of throwing fuel on the fire if i show him this post. It's not because I think I'm the "right" and he's the "wrong." I understand why he would be frustrated these past two years.

 

My main issue is what happened at the party and how I now feel. Hope that makes sense.

I am still thanking all for each and every response!

 

All of this sounds like there's a lot of non-communication going on. You both should be able to talk with each other truthfully about your fears, feelings, thoughts, etc. without feeling that there's going to be repercussion for what is being said. You should be able to feel that you can be honest about everything without feeling guilty about them. And the same goes for him...he should be able to truthfully tell you how he feels without feeling guilty about hurting you. There's a way to communicate that is both honest, truthful, yet gracefully, respectful, and tactful. Perhaps the relationship is too young and you two haven't been able to learn how to communicate in this way...and maybe one of those reasons is because swinging was introduced too quickly or you two just haven't had enough time in the relationship.

 

And if I may be honest, the "I want to see what he will do on his own...get a truer picture of what he wants to do not under the influence," sounds a bit shady and underhanded like you're setting him up for a trap where he gets in trouble. He knows what he wants and even though some of what was said does sound jerk-ish...he is being honest. Which leads me to this:

 

Last night he jokingly (?) said "monogamy is a four-letter word."

My stomach sorta sunk.

 

Did you tell him that you felt this way? Have you told him that even though you're interested in swinging, you don't see it as a "must-have" or as important...because that's what this sounds like to me. You could take it or leave it--maybe even leave it. And that's a big difference which is what many of us have been saying. He seems to need to be non-monogamous for the rest of his life. You do not and may even prefer to be monogamous. That is a big incompatibility right there that will lead to more and more drama and stress on the relationship.

 

I was thinking about this during lunch: A lot of us on the forum see swinging as a hobby (others see it as essential). Those of us who see it as a hobby know that if they or their spouse says, "I want to stop swinging," there are no ifs/ands/buts about it. If one wants to stop swinging, they both do. We do it as a team. We do it together. We're a happy unit that can swing and invite others into the relationship but if it stops being fun for one, then we stop because we care about how our spouse no longer gets pleasure from it. We are secure in the knowledge that if swinging were to stop tomorrow for us as a couple, we both would be happy with just each other as well. Perhaps that's why a non-swinging period is also necessary in the beginning of a relationship, not just to build the foundation, but to know that both are happy to be with just each other. Swinging right from the beginning doesn't build that security.

 

This, of course, differs from those who view non-monogamy as essential to their lives. They will never be happy with just one other person. Pair them with another person that has that same outlook and they'll probably do fine without that "honeymoon" period at the beginning of the relationship. But if they pair off with someone who doesn't see non-monogamy as necessary, then there can be trouble.

[81lizard69 469]

Some times I think it is hard to see yourself how others see you. I have to manage construction projects at work. I deal with engineers bankers and construction workers some of which may or may not be all that bright. How I manage them fairly is I judge them by their actions and not what they say they are going to do. That way I do not get caught up in drama that can confuse the situation. I see some drama here and alot of communication. In short some people say one thing while doing another and they do not realize they are doing it. My wife and I learned to communicate by playing this game.

 

 

I say something to her. She replies to me what she heard and how she feels about what I told her.Then I respond saying what I heard her say and how that effects me. Then we negotiate what we are going to do next. It works with sex money.. everything.

 

I have seen your actions indicate that yes you want to swing. You have gone through all the motions and have said you do.. you just have not done it yet. What held you back. I suggest not drinking and swinging. That seems to impair judgement and looks a little sloppy to tell the truth.

 

My wife started us swinging and then had some reservations about it. She would feel anxiety about it and never told me. I asked her what I could do better and she said she wanted to play with people that were more friends and less of people we just happened upon at a party. She liked the date and the chase. Then we could get to know the couple. It is far more intimate for the woman to trust a strange male to be in her than it is for a man to be in a strange woman. I get that and see why. She could become pregnant, catch a disease or he could hurt her. It takes a while to get there. Some times at parties with the old swinging dogs that know each other it becomes some thing of a frenzied meat market that can scare off the newbies. This could be why you caught cold feet.

 

Do you ever see yourself swinging. I mean if it was the right couple in a nice place.. with maybe a couple of dates could you have intercourse with another man while your husband was in the same room having sex with his partner. Or in another room seperatly. After the swap you would come together and tell each other all about it and plan for the next meet up. You get to experience how another man makes love and your husband gets to experience her. Heck she might even do it better than you.. or the man might be a stud that turns you on in ways you have never felt before. You might be thinking of the new mans huge penis and how he used for the next month.

 

There is so much to experience in swinging that just the thought of it is intoxicating to me. Its so fun to meet new people and share with them a intimate portion of yourself.

 

That is how I feel about it..

 

Your husband has tasted that and liked it. You might like it yourself.

 

If you are not into and never will be. You might want to move on. There are so many good men out there that do not want to swing either I am sure you will have no problem attracting a man that does not do this.

 

Good luck..

[intuition897 2,177]

Excellent post by SwingSetWife!

 

All I know is that swinging should not be the foundation upon which a relationship is built. I don't believe it should be mandatory and it definitely should not be the thing that makes or breaks a relationship. Now if Mr. Earthsand347 really does feel that he can not and never will be monogamous, and he is unwilling to negotiate on this point, it may point toward what they call irreconcilable differences. I know he's not here to defend his position, but I can't imagine there's much he can say that negates the fact that Ms. Earthsand347 feels pressured to do things she is uncomfortable doing at this point, and the pressure is coming from his direction. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but this seems like simple math to me. Some of his remarks - even if they are paraphrased - are off-putting.

 

*Sigh* I'd be tempted, if I were you, to end the relationship on the grounds of incompatibility. He has his expectations, and so should you. You deserve to be in a relationship that adds to your life, makes you feel supported and cared for, and that never, ever asks you to diminish yourself to satisfy the whims of the other. Then you'll be free to explore swinging at your leisure, as SwingSetWife did. And like her partner, your BF will likely be pissed off when he hears about it. But oh well. All that pushing and shoving, what did it get him? Fuck all, that's what. If he had let you be, you probably would have both been in the thick of things, enjoying every minute of it by now. He should leave you to your own devices, respect your space, give you time and breathing room to build up your comfort level naturally...and maybe even enjoy the whole discovery phase along with you!

[Earthsand347 20]

That's interesting because I kind of thought that, too, Intuition897, that if he had let well enough alone I just miiiiiiight (someday anyway possibly maybe I dunno) be on the same page with him. Incompatible I do see.

 

Another conversation with him this weekend him to say "I like swinging to take the edge off." I think he meant he has a sexual itch.

But, is that something swingers feel???

I've only been with him a couple of years and our sex life hasn't gotten "routine" or I didn't think so anyway ...

Trying to figure it out because to leave ... well, that is a big deal, too.

[Lionheart72 2,186]

Another conversation with him this weekend him to say "I like swinging to take the edge off." I think he meant he has a sexual itch.

But, is that something swingers feel???

I've only been with him a couple of years and our sex life hasn't gotten "routine" or I didn't think so anyway ...

Trying to figure it out because to leave ... well, that is a big deal, too.

 

Respectfully, you need to stop asking yourself that.

 

The important question is: are you ok with that? If not, then you need to say that. Because the closest thing we can say about what "all swingers" do is, ideally, we communicate. We share what we think and what we feel and what we want, we listen to our partners thoughts, feelings and desires and we respect each other.

 

So, you've been listening to and trying to respect his thoughts, feelings and desires... but the question is is he listening to and respecting yours?

 

Have you clearly stated your limits and your discomfort with his behavior? Is he listening to and respecting those limits?

[sunbuckus 3,565]

Another conversation with him this weekend him to say "I like swinging to take the edge off." I think he meant he has a sexual itch.

But, is that something swingers feel???

I've only been with him a couple of years and our sex life hasn't gotten "routine" or I didn't think so anyway ...

Trying to figure it out because to leave ... well, that is a big deal, too.

 

Honestly, there are a thousand ways from Sunday (that's a saying, right?) why people like to swing. At this point, this is what I see:

 

Him: Reasons why he wants to swing and doesn't want to give it up.

You: Reasons that bother you about why he wants to swing.

 

You both are coming from different ends of the spectrum it seems and I truly think that this might be the deciding factor of whether the relationship continues or ends if this is all that you two can focus on right now.

 

Breaking up, leaving...it's always hard to do and usually is a big deal--even if it's mutual. Maybe you're focused on the past ("How can I walk away from a 2 year relationship?"). Maybe you're focused on the present ("I love him so much that it hurts to even think about walking away."). But maybe you aren't looking into the future. I can't see a monogamous future for your boyfriend. He sounds like this is very important to him and finding a partner that shares that view/interest is so essential that he'll do what he can to convince a vanilla girlfriend into it. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. But whether the girlfriend wants to or not doesn't mean she's in the right or wrong. It just is. You sound like you can currently leave the swinging stuff behind. Maybe you can take it in the future but that's a huge "if"...something that probably doesn't sound pleasing to your boyfriend. If this is a major issue now and you stay with him, how likely is it that you'll view non-monogamy in the same light as your boyfriend?

 

What you need to do is decide what you want and speak up for those desires. The only person who will consistently look out for your needs and wants is you. You can't rely on family, friends, or boyfriends to do that for you. They have their own wants, needs, and motivations to worry about. However, the trick is to find someone else that is open and honest about their needs and wants, listens to you about your own, finds a happy medium between the two, and also desires your happiness. Once both of you do this with each other in the relationship, then there is a stable foundation.

[Chicup 38]

Another conversation with him this weekend him to say "I like swinging to take the edge off." I think he meant he has a sexual itch.

But, is that something swingers feel???

 

In a way yes. The very thought of cheating on my wife is extremely unappealing, and the occasional swinging does help with that. Non-monogamy is quite natural, swinging I see is a safe way to explore that without harming your relationship. Now the problem here is that for you it IS harming your relationship.

 

So he may well be 100% honest about it taking the edge off, it does for me too, but its the harming the relationship part that is the problem.

[intuition897 2,177]

I would be very interested to hear Mr. Earthsand's side of things. In just about every case, most problems boil down to miscommunication. I would be surprised if it is in this case, however, if what you have told us is true. I'm all for honesty, but I'm not sure how he can expect a better result when he has basically told you - in all honesty - that he cares more about himself than you. I can't advise being anything other than honest, but it does have consequences. When you identify yourself as a swinger and say that's part of the package, take it or leave it, you have to realize that you've just reduced your pool of possible long-term-relationship candidates down to a shallow puddle. He sounds to me like a very stubborn and uncompromising individual. Good qualities in certain arenas, but not where relationships (especially swinging relationships) are concerned.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

Another conversation with him this weekend him to say "I like swinging to take the edge off." I think he meant he has a sexual itch.

But, is that something swingers feel???

 

Whatever it is that makes some people monogamous is something that I don't possess. I've struggled with it since I was a teenager. It has made people I care about unhappy, because they've felt like it's because I don't think they're enough. Really, though, it has nothing to do with them and everything to do with me. It's a part of who I am and no more something I can overcome than my height (although a lot of inversions in yoga will add a 1/4", I'm still roughly 5'2"). It's also a part of the conversation I've had with everyone I've done more than have coffee with, because people deserve to know what they might be signing up for.

 

Swinging is something that makes life easier for me, because it fulfills my need for variety, but...if we didn't swing, that need for variety would only come up once every three to five years.

[Earthsand347 20]

I went through the entire thread again reading (and being grateful for) each and every thoughtful comment.

 

I wanted to add one more piece of the story that I had forgotten to tell - that is when Mr. Earthsand was swinging heavily with his ex-wife, they got to a point where he was "swinging" by himself OK'd by and acceptable to his ex who actually was not doing anything herself. Basically, he had sex with anyone else and she didn't. He did this for at least a year and then, coincidentally (or not) they divorced not long after. He says it was due to other reasons and swinging had nothing to do with the divorce. Fine, one of the happiest times in his life, he says and I can see how that might be for him.

 

I'm just scared this is same song second verse. And wonder if I am just a vehicle being used to get him closer to his eventual goal of sex with others without me.

 

I am seeing that communication is important and alcohol is not (!).

I am seeing that our goals may be different. I'm trying to make a decision that will turn out acceptable for both of us.

I'm ignorant about swinging. I'm ignorant about relationships with a swinger. So, I don't know if the above would concern others.

 

Thank you thank you for reading. I really can't go anywhere else with my worries.

[sunbuckus 3,565]

...when Mr. Earthsand was swinging heavily with his ex-wife, they got to a point where he was "swinging" by himself OK'd by and acceptable to his ex who actually was not doing anything herself. Basically, he had sex with anyone else and she didn't. He did this for at least a year and then, coincidentally (or not) they divorced not long after. He says it was due to other reasons and swinging had nothing to do with the divorce.

 

I think it takes a special relationship dynamic for one partner to go out and have sex with anyone they want while the other doesn't. I can't say whether they had this dynamic that made it work or not. However, I wouldn't necessarily call what he did in the past nor what he is trying to do currently as swinging. It might be a word that he is using to excuse what he is doing but doesn't really describe what he is doing. Does that make sense?

[carebear 90]

Sunbuckus, I think you hit the nail on the head with that one.

It's very likely that swinging means different things to different people. The major point is that it means the same thing to the both of you.

It might be helpful to write down what it means to you, and have him write down what it means to him.

I think he's leaning toward open relationship, not swinging. That's basically what he was doing the last year of his marriage.

 

Also I keep going back to the party incident. I can't get over that he left you, alone(?) and drunk while he went off and had his fun. That really bothers me. He should always have your back. Now if you were at a party with a group of close friends and at some point in the evening you drank too much, but you were with friends who he trusted to keep an eye on you...still not ok, but not potentially scarring.

[Earthsand347 20]

Sunbuckus - I do get it that what happened is not in the typical swinging definition. I feel at least there is something that really did go off the path. Thank you.

Carebear - I also see that what matters is how each of our meaning of "swinging" is important and if we both are on the same page about it.

 

I can't say I'm 100% not going to try again, but if I do decide to dip my toe back in what rules I should have. My gut feeling at this point is -

None for you. Some for me.

Keeping him on a tight rein (whoever him might end up being!).

Set rules before and stick tight to them.

Such (!) a trust issue

Wonder if there's more I should think about ...

[sunbuckus 3,565]

I can't say I'm 100% not going to try again, but if I do decide to dip my toe back in what rules I should have. My gut feeling at this point is -

None for you. Some for me.

Keeping him on a tight rein (whoever him might end up being!).

Set rules before and stick tight to them.

Such (!) a trust issue

Wonder if there's more I should think about ...

 

I'm not sure I'm reading your post correctly...are these rules that you are going to have with your current boyfriend if you two go back into swinging (which I absolutely recommend against doing right now)? Just my humble opinion but the following is what is going through my mind:

 

1. I don't see the first two rules as being particular beneficial to the relationship or resulting in any swinging experience that is fun...even if these were rules for a swinging couple that doesn't have the issues that you two have.

 

2. There are so many issues within your relationship that need to be addressed before any swinging should be considered. Swinging or any non-monogamy activities without working through those issues are just going to make those cracks in your relationship bigger and bigger until you two are able to work together on patching those cracks.

 

3. Concerning the first rule, I am highly wary when a couple has inequality of what one can do while the other can't. Are there couples where this can work? Very rare couples can pull this off. In your case, I cannot see this as happening considering how your boyfriend seems to state that he needs non-monogamy. This type of rule often leads to a ticking drama bomb.

 

4. Holding a "tight rein" on anyone isn't fun for the one holding the reins nor is it fun for the one being reined in. This is a power struggle that doesn't serve the relationship well. Resentment will grow for both sides. Resentment for having to "control" their partner. Resentment for having to be "controlled". And this is just a little bit of what will happen.

 

Trust is paramount in a relationship before and during swinging. Clearly there is very little right now...perhaps forever. Please, please, please think about what swinging will do to your relationship (as well as any couple you engage in) if you both continue down this road.

[christnthms 325]

I'm a newbie here, and so my perspective is admittedly limited.

I will say that for my lady and I, trust is THE foundation. I'd go so far as to say that it outweighs every other consideration, as the rest is built upon it.

As it stands, an imbalance in activity isn't a problem for us because of the trust... If she wants, she gets. I know that if I want, she'd give me equal freedom. We don't concern ourselves with keeping score of any sort because of the level of trust we have.

 

If for ANY REASON that trust became threatened, we'd stop all play until we had patched up whatever was the problem. WE are the priority, not playtime.

The benefit, of course, is that by focusing on US the playtime doesn't require the rules and limits that you're considering.

Trust is both liberating and binding, both in the best possible way.

[SwingSetWife 442]

Okay, again I have been meaning to make it around to this post, so sorry for the late reply but.......

 

As to why I have not brought him to the board partly it's because I feel I want to see what he will do on his own. To me that way I could get a truer picture of what he wants to do not under the influence.

 

This is the totally wrong approach IMHO. You are testing him, never a good thing. Even a worse thing when you are dealing with something so sensitive and trying to build a trusting relationship that revolves around communication. How can you expect that you two will have good communication when you are willingly withholding information? He is NEVER (NEVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVER) going to respond the same exact why you want/expect him to in ANY situation. That is something I have had to learn the hard way in my own relationship. It is a very hard thing to do to tell another human being exactly what you want/need/expect and even after you tell them that, you have to understand that they are STILL not going to act in the same way you would act in the same situation. We are humans, we are different, we have to accept that being in a relationship is not about having a cookie cutter version of our one true love, but having someone that will love, respect, and compromise with us.

 

You are not even giving him the chance to understand how you truly feel about the situation, because again, you would rather just sit back and hope he does it on his own, and then you WILL resent him if he doesn't.

 

 

Taking the whole thread into consideration, this is what I have concluded (and again, this is only from what is written here, I could never know the whole situation)

1. He did disrespect you. Whether you gave permission while drunk or not, he took advantage of the situation to do what he wanted to do.

2. He wants to be a swinger- period- end of story. It doesn't look like (at the point and from his so-called comments presented in the thread) the relationship is more important than swinging. Swinging seems to be the priority to him. You need to accept that that could be the case.

3. You may have interest in swinging. Fine. But I have learned (and I at least think this could be the case in many swinging relationships) that too many boundaries end in disaster. It is much more beneficial to begin with a relationship where you trust your partner to make decisions that respect the relationship first and foremost. If you feel like you need to have a "tight rein" on him, yall are not ready for swinging.

 

 

Bottom line- Yall need to stop swinging at this very moment. Tell him that the only way to move forward is to build a relationship that would survive without swinging before the topic is even brought up again. Again, in my personal relationship, I had to LEAVE MY HUSBAND before that point even made sense to either of us. I know with absolute confidence now that I could call quits to swinging at any time and our relationship would continue on in the same manner. If we break up again, it will not be over swinging. I could end up eating those words 10 years down the line, but again, I am at least secure in the relationship we have now and the people we are now to not have to worry about it- people change, and I am prepared for that, but I can only speak for now. Swinging doesn't make our relationship, it is just something we do. I could also stop my hobby of writing tomorrow and it would be the same thing. Anyway, I digress.... The point is, if you tell him you want to stop for an extended period, several things will happen. You will find out if he really does value the relationship over the swinging. You will have time to build a stronger relationship. You will have time to find out if this is something you even want.

[Earthsand347 20]

I congratulate you, SwingSetWife, for being so strong and standing by your thoughts! I wish I could be so strong.

 

I wanted to sure a follow-up. We went to a birthday party last week. Yes, it was a swinger house party, too, but we know these people so we were sort of obligated to go. But, i was going to communicate better and I brought up dos and don'ts and he said I was in the driver's seat and that we would go as fast as the slowest person (me). In fact, I was actually very hesitant to go and he understood that, too. I told him my goal was to socialize, deliver a present , and that was really it.

 

So, he ended up making out with a gal whose husband I had clearly explained to my BF weeks ago I wasn't interested in. (We had met them at a meet-and-greet) I saw them and left the scene. BF followed me and did to his credit stop what he was doing. But, i told him what bothered me was that he didn't stop on his own. I had to initiate that. He admitted that he failed following the rules of doing things together.

 

No drinks BTW - learned that lesson!

 

Maybe I haven't learned my lesson completely.

Maybe it wasn't fair to go to this party hoping we would be on the same page.

Maybe I wanted to give him a chance.

Maybe I'm being stupid ...

 

'

[Lionheart72 2,186]

Well... and we know I am not a fan of BF by any means... let's give him a little credit for stopping when called on his behavior. By your earlier accounts, this represents improvement. Also, by your account, he admitted his error and that it was an error. This again represents improvement.

 

So, on the one hand, he gave into temptation but, on the other hand, he stopped. He hasn't quite improved as much as you would have hoped, but it does sound like he's improved.

 

You tell me: step in the right direction or another straw on the proverbial camels back?

[Gordo 617]

he said I was in the driver's seat and that we would go as fast as the slowest person (me).

 

His mouth is issuing checks his brain won't cash! Once again he failed to put the relationship first.

 

I don't think you're stupid the real question is how many times will you permit this to happen before saying enough?

[confused12524 201]

Here's the bottom line. From the male swinger perspective.

 

Disclaimer: my opinion. But I think it fits here.

 

He is not going to change. This is not something he is just going to give up. Being "no big deal" to him is the truth.

 

Yes. He is being an ass in his disregard for rules and your level of comfort.

 

I don't think any compromise that involves not doing it would ever work.

 

From what you write I know how he thinks, I understand it.

 

He thinks everyone has this surpressed desire to be "sexually free" and that most just don't free themselves to act on it. He doesn't think for a second that you won't like it. He just thinks that you have other hangups that once you get beyond that you'll be "liberated" and full steam into it.

 

Well that's just not the case.

 

Me, I enjoy it so much and its such a "high" that I too can't understand how anyone wouldn't love it and desire it like I do.

 

But in reality, I get it.

 

Simple example. You have people that are into sports something serious. They'll follow their favorite football team around the country and never miss a game. Me, I would be miserable if I went to a game. Any game. I would rather stay home and clip toenails.

 

The problem is. If my wife were the sports nut, or anything like that. I could compromise, put on a smile and a jersey and rock on.

 

You can't do that with sex. This involves you doing something personal with your body. Asking someone to compromise and swing to please their partner is essentially rape in my opinion.

 

Bottom line. He's not going to stop.

If you discover you love it too. Then there may be a future. Maybe.

 

If you don't like it. Pack it in.

 

He will either continue behind your back, or if he stops, he will resent you.

 

No compromise that involves not doing it would be practical.

[Chicup 38]

You can't do that with sex. This involves you doing something personal with your body. Asking someone to compromise and swing to please their partner is essentially rape in my opinion.

 

I gotta throw the caution flag up. Rape is a rather strong word. By this definition, if you take one for the team, its rape. I've never taken one TOTALLY for the team, but I've compromised and swung once or twice at times I would rather have not.

[confused12524 201]

I realize its a strong word and doesn't apply in many cases. But I do know there are women who REALLY don't want to do it, but do it because they feel pressured for other reasons. So it may be legal consent but that's the extent of it

[Earthsand347 20]

Confused12524, thanks for your perspective and I think you are right about his state of mind.

 

After all these things happened we were talking about what vacations might be fun. So, I just mentioned a cruise or the beach. These are things that would be great for anyone I would think. But, he said he wouldn't want to do either unless they were a swinger cruise or a swinger resort. Darn it - I felt sorta defeated...

 

I wonder if it was right of me to feel that way.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

After all these things happened we were talking about what vacations might be fun. So, I just mentioned a cruise or the beach. These are things that would be great for anyone I would think. But, he said he wouldn't want to do either unless they were a swinger cruise or a swinger resort. Darn it - I felt sorta defeated...

 

I wonder if it was right of me to feel that way.

 

Right of you? Meh. Who knows? However, if I had just realized that what I thought was a relationship with another adult was really one with a large, greedy toddler, I'd certainly be feeling a little defeated.

 

The likelihood is that he will not change, that this situation will not change and that, even if you stick it out, you'll still be in roughly the same place five years from now, because people who manage to remain toddlers well into adulthood clearly missed a multitude of steps in their development and are unlikely to be going back to make them up.

[81lizard69 469]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Each time you go out to a swinger party you get hurt. When you bring up a vacation or something else you want to do he turns it into a swinging trip and it hurts your feelings..

 

I would ask myself what am I afraid of with swinging?

 

How am I trying to manage that fear.. ?

 

Is the way you are managing the fear working?

 

How do you want to be? Ie. do you or do you not want to swing?

 

 

Could you spent the rest of your life knowing he wants to be with other women?

 

Don not add a bunch of what if's.. or make deals in your head with him like. If I swing then he will like me more and we will get together and then be happy...

 

Just a simple yes or no will work here.

 

If you are unsure about your answer go to a swinger party with the full intention of swinging.. If you show up hate it and cant do it then its not for you. Its just that simple.

 

It is ok not to swing. Its ok not to be with a swinger.

 

Its not ok to not know what you want because you are trying to get some one to do something you want them to and they do not want to do.. In other words manipulating him will just lead to resentments. Those are thoughts that plague our judgement.

 

Being able to know what you are feeling and the ability to see how your choices to get things that you want effect you is part of being a grown up..

 

I did not type that to be mean.. just to state that being aware of who you are will set you free from making decisions based out of fear and I cant help but think that you are deciding to swing with him out of fear of losing him..

 

Making decisions out of fear only hurts you!

 

Be true to yourself young lady. Self awareness with the power to carry that our will set you free.

 

Here is a quote from one of my favorite mystics:

 

Let yourself be drawn by the stronger pull of that which you truly love.”

― Rumi

 

I can not imagine having to live with some one that is completely on another page when it comes to sex. Every conversation about sex can turn into worry for you. Even a talk about a vacation that you would like to do causes worry. I love my wife and if I knew something was bugging her I would do everything I could to take that pain or inconvenience out of her life. I would stop swinging if she said she wanted to. I am building a life for us to last until we pass.. Nothing is more important to us than each others happiness.. I love her enough to make many sacrifices and she would do the same. I am pulled towards her as she is pulled towards me in loving kindness.. and guess what .. true love does not hurt.

[kelleyandsusan 44]

Emotional Sex is the only way, even for that brief moment. It probably isn't for you, then with the right guy an occasional diversion is awesome. Na, get another guy, and be yourself

[elizasnew 16]

you made an agreement that "we clearly discussed" and " promised"... if thats the case.. wether you were drunk or not... he shouldn't have even asked.. he put you on the spot.. probably knowing full well before he entered into that agreement that he was going to bail on your deal.. I'm sorry this was a negative experience for you... but it may just be the clarity you need to decide where your future lies.

[Earthsand347 20]

I've been lying low and not doing anything much. I just wanted to see if anyone thinks what has happened recently would be considered OK.

I have made it pretty clear to my BF that I'm just not interested in pursuing much swinger-related now (burned from events described earlier in this thread). We belong to a swinger dating site because our membership is still current. I had asked him not to even get on the site unless I wanted to (I'm in the driver's seat, right? according to him). He actually said he didn't have a problem with that. However, he got on and I was not too happy. He asked me at least if he could check out the profile of someone who had sent an email. I said no. I don't even want to get started on a path. He did anyway. Blow up, then apologies, apologies. Things are then ok for a few days.

Then, he told me that he again checked out some more profiles (a few days after the blowup) of people who had emailed us.

Agghhhh! My issue is trust. Am I being too harsh, though? Is this a predictor of the future? I mean what if we get into an actual swinging situation someday? Can I believe him?

I thank this community for the support - it's been a lifeline.

[Lionheart72 2,186]

It certainly sounds to me like he has an issue. Obviously, he's told you he won't do a thing and then does it anyway. That said, and you know I'm not a fan of his, I'm a bit of a compulsive website checker myself. I can get into a routine of checking sites regularly... FB, certain forums and the local paper's opinions page. At least once a month someone will post something on one of these sites and I will swear to myself I won't look, won't respond, won't visit the site. Sometimes, I'll even delete the bookmark... then I can last about a week before I go back to the site. More often, it's measured in hours. I read somewhere that there is a certain pleasurable-feedback response invoked in the brain by social media sites like FB that makes them popular and hard to give up. Couple that with the basic guy monkey-brain response to pictures of naked ladies, and I imagine swinger dating sites can be an easy thing to compulsively visit.

 

Not an excuse or a justification for his behavior, but maybe an explanation.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

Agghhhh! My issue is trust. Am I being too harsh, though? Is this a predictor of the future? I mean what if we get into an actual swinging situation someday? Can I believe him?

 

Pretty much every financial instrument available for sale carries a disclaimer that "past performance is not indicative of future results." When you're researching stocks or bonds, you should believe every word of that disclaimer. When thinking about human behavior, though, the opposite is true. In that sphere, past performance is very much indicative of future results. If your boyfriend can't be trusted to keep his word now - and your many stories about him say he can't be - then that's unlikely to change. Poor impulse control (and that's clearly operative here), if you think about it for even a few seconds, is more or less the definition of an indicator of future issues.

[Earthsand347 20]

Pretty much every financial instrument available for sale carries a disclaimer that "past performance is not indicative of future results." When you're researching stocks or bonds, you should believe every word of that disclaimer. When thinking about human behavior, though, the opposite is true. In that sphere, past performance is very much indicative of future results. If your boyfriend can't be trusted to keep his word now - and your many stories about him say he can't be - then that's unlikely to change. Poor impulse control (and that's clearly operative here), if you think about it for even a few seconds, is more or less the definition of an indicator of future issues.

I hope that the community is OK with me posting this last update. This board has been so supportive. I've read this thread over and over and am grateful for every single comment (really!). I hope I won't get flamed for being an idiot for still struggling with this issue.

 

So even though he knows I have difficulty being all into swinging and we have had some trust issues I told him last night I will swing for him because swinging makes him happy. I told him that he could even have sex with others even if I didn't participate.

I truly want him to be happy. He said no problem he would be fine with that because I'm in the driver's seat and if that's what I want to do he'll do it.

 

No, I'm not testing him. Yes, I'm still with him because I can't bring myself to leave just because of the swinging (or not).

I'm just wondering if that's what a swinger would do. I'm not trying to be ignorant or dumb - I just don't have a lot of swinger experience. He does and this community does and has been so helpful. That's why I come here.

 

I'm confused about if what he's doing is "normal" swinging behavior.

 

Any of your opinions are very much appreciated because I'm all turned around

[christnthms 325]

I'm all for being supportive, and only you know your own feelings well enough to make any judgment here.

That said, I worry about the long-term "cancer" of resentment. A little thing, carried for a long time, is an overwhelming burden. This doesn't seem like a little thing...

On one hand, you may end up enjoying it more than you thought. I don't think that's terribly likely, given your previous posts, but it could happen.

Every other scenario I can think of though, includes you feeling left out or short changed somehow. Even if there is satisfaction in maintaining the relationship overall, whatever resentments exist over the swinging can eat a hole in you.

 

I wish you all the best, whichever path you choose, and remember that you CAN change your mind at any point...

[sunbuckus 3,565]

I hope that the community is OK with me posting this last update. This board has been so supportive. I've read this thread over and over and am grateful for every single comment (really!). I hope I won't get flamed for being an idiot for still struggling with this issue.

 

Earthsand, I think this community welcomes any and all continued updates so that anyone who comes to the forums for advice can see the progression of how a situation plays out and what comes from it. So, thank you for continuing to update your situation in this thread and I hope you continue to do so.

 

So even though he knows I have difficulty being all into swinging and we have had some trust issues I told him last night I will swing for him because swinging makes him happy. I told him that he could even have sex with others even if I didn't participate.

I truly want him to be happy. He said no problem he would be fine with that because I'm in the driver's seat and if that's what I want to do he'll do it.

 

I know this is hard to understand but from our limited viewpoint, we see his behavior and actions equal to that of a toddler. If a toddler is not listening to rules but you continue to allow the toddler to bend and break those rules, he isn't going to learn anything. If you just give in and allow the toddler to do whatever he wants, then you basically giving up and allowing the toddler to remain being unruly and not listen to the boundaries that others have. Giving him a "you can do whatever you want" pass is exactly what he wants. From what I have seen throughout your thread, his saying that you are "in the driver's seat" is to placate you. Essentially, he has pushed and pushed your limits and has now found out that he can walk all over you because instead of pushing back and realizing your worth and your needs are just as important, you have told him that you have no respect for yourself and he shouldn't either by giving him a free-for-all.

 

Yes, I'm still with him because I can't bring myself to leave just because of the swinging (or not). I'm just wondering if that's what a swinger would do.

 

Within the swinging community, there are all sorts of couples. Couples who love and respect each other. Couples who don't love each other and are on their last legs. And couples in the middle of those two ranges. Couples who are in the first group would not act the way you two are. There is a give and take. Couples who are in the second group might go for a free-for-all for both partners (or an open marriage) to see if it will help salvage the relationship. And there are couples like yourself where there is love but maybe there is a selfish partner and a non-selfish partner. The non-selfish partner may give a free-for-all pass to the selfish one but depending on how long the non-selfish partner can continue with the selfish behavior will determine how long the relationship lasts.

 

This is just my opinion but if your boyfriend really loved and respected you, he would honor your limits and boundaries. Instead, he is only acting selfishly and see what he can get from this relationship...not what he can give to you.

 

Here is some food for thought for you...if this was really "normal" for swinging couples and this community felt that swinging was about having sex with whoever you wanted whenever you wanted, would we be putting so much emphasis on communication, love, respect, and trust within a couple? We all know that swinging isn't for everyone and couples in certain stages in their relationship should be careful if they are interested in swinging. We are aware of the pitfalls and the work that might need to go into the relationship before swinging (and during). Collectively, we have been telling you the red flags we have seen from your posts alone. It is your choice whether you continue on the path you are headed or take heed of the advice we have been giving you.

[Gordo 617]

So what next? If he decides he wants to prostitute you out for money will you allow that?

 

Somewhere along the way you've lost your self esteem to set your boundaries and stick to them. Do you want to live your life as a doormat?

 

Sorry to be so harsh but you really need to get your mojo back and stop making excuses for his shitty behaviour. You say you don't know what swingers do and SWINGERS here have told you

repeatedly that his behaviour is cheating not swinging.

 

You're making excuses for him and enabling him with a cheating is OK card. Do you buy booze for an alcoholic when he's too pissed to get his own? A pair of boxing gloves for a wife abuser 'cause he hurts his hands when he beats on you?

 

Stop, stop now and walk away.

[Lionheart72 2,186]

I'm confused about if what he's doing is "normal" swinging behavior.

 

No.

 

In my not so humble opinion, as a swinger, as a guy, as a husband and has a human being, the answer to your question is no, this is not "normal" swinging behavior.

 

Period. End of Line. Full Stop.

 

No.

[funcoupledayton 2,707]

There are 7 pages of real swingers telling you that this is not "normal". But, every update you come back and ask again. I'm very sorry he's made you feel so insecure about your own thoughts and opinions.

 

I think you need to just ask yourself, "Do I want to be in a relationship with a man who continually disregards my feelings? Who is intent on being non-monogamous regardless of what I want? Who makes me feel so unsure of myself that I keep asking strangers the same questions over and over? Is this boyfriend better than being happy on my own? Am I wasting my time when I could find someone who respects me?"

 

What happens in five years when you've had countless unhappy weekends and weekdays of arguing and regret, then he finds the girl who really wants an open, free for all relationship, or worse he wants to be monogamous with? You won't have great memories, you'll have wasted your time. Life is too short for fussing and fighting. Unless you are truly happy letting him do whatever he wants you should find your own path and your own happiness.

 

Just so you don't have to ask, I don't know any real swingers who would be happy with the scenario you've proposed. My husband and I give each other a lot of freedom, but it is with underlying respect, intense communication and a full commitment to each other. From what I've seen you two don't have that.

 

I hope you will continue to update us and I do truly wish you the best.

[GoldCoCouple 4,014]

I agree...thanks for the update and please keep them coming but at the same time, I think that you are on a dead end road. I would NEVER do anything that would make my SO uncomfortable or unhappy...wouldn't even ask and wouldn't do if she had the slightest amount of hesitation. I hope I'm wrong and I want you to say 'I told you so' when and if it is appropriate, but he's looking for a replacement but wants to keep you around since you are better than nothing...and even though I have never met you, I know that you are much better than that (and I'm sure I'm not the only person here that knows the same thing about you).

 

You live on the west coast too...leave him and date us!

[Gordo 617]

The hardest thing about love is having to give it up!

[JustAskJulie 2,588]

Love is hard. Too often we will do ANYTHING to try to make a broken relationship work. Too often we will do way more than we should, before we finally walk away. We need to know we can prove to ourselves (and sometimes to others) that we really did do everything in our power.

 

Here's the problem: a relationship takes two people. You can do everything in your power but if the other person isn't putting in their 150% everything you did is for nothing.

 

I hate to chime in here (with many others who already have) and tell you the same thing. This relationship you are in, is broken. It's not going to get fixed. Swinging isn't the issue and swinging will NOT fix things. The issue is his selfish need to have/ do what he wants without regard for how you feel.

 

What would a swinger do? A swinger would choose what is most important to them (just like anyone else would). Whether the most important thing is swinging, or is the person you love.... well, that's the question, isn't it?

 

It seems to me that for him the most important thing is swinging, for you it's him. You will end up hurt (you've already been). He's not going to suddenly change just because you give him what he wants. Sure, things will "feel" better for a while because he's getting what he wants, but eventually you are realizing you are giving up yourself to get him. Choose what's best for you. Choose YOU!

[Earthsand347 20]

Hello. I hope I won't seem like a stubborn, not learning quickly person. But, I have thought about this and thought about this. What if I just let a guy swing on his own without me if we get along in all other areas except swinging. He could do things separately and I would wait for him at home or wherever. Maybe we could go to a house party or club together, but then split up once we're in the door.

We had gone to a house party a couple of days ago. Actually, I had a lot of fun flirting. There truly wasn't much in the way of booking up honestly. But. he had a miserable time because he got no "action."

I thought maybe if I weren't around he could act fully like his assertive self without having to worry about me "holding him back." So, separate might be an answer?

But, am I being naive or stupid?

It's funny - as a BTW - I might actually like swinging if I didn't feel burned by the past. I'm just not going as fast as he wants to go although I may be kinda warming up to the Lifestyle idea.

[81lizard69 469]

Single men and swinging aint so easy. Unless he is hung like a horse or looks like Brad Pit he will not get very far on his own. Most women wont do swing with single guys. If he goes alone he wont hook up.. Couples like to share the experiance, atleast the ones I know. Women are in charge of this game. The sooner he learns that the happier he will be.

[Lionheart72 2,186]

I thought maybe if I weren't around he could act fully like his assertive self without having to worry about me "holding him back." So, separate might be an answer?

 

It is a truth often stated on these boards... swinging does not solve problems. Swinging magnifies relationships. Little cracks can become gaping holes.

 

But, am I being naive or stupid?

 

My honest opinion? Yes, I think you are. I'm sorry, but I do.

[sunbuckus 3,565]

81lizard makes a great point that it's hard being a single male in the LS...and that is what he will be considered when he goes out without you. If he felt miserable at the last party because "he got no action" and he attended with you, stepping out without you isn't going to make matters any better for him.

 

However, I wanted to ask how you feel about him going out without you to swinging events. I'm wondering how this will affect the relationship later on down the road. For some women, they are able to "turn a blind eye" and have a don't-ask-don't-tell situation with their husband. For other women, they do this to keep the peace and relationship but find out that they can't do it or continue in that type of relationship. This all boils down to what you want in a relationship, what you want in a partner, and how you want to be treated.

[Gordo 617]

The thing is, as you've been told over and over, this isn't about swinging. It's about someone who doesn't respect or love you enough to make your needs his priority.

 

Last summer my wife told me she wanted to take a break. If something happened great but no pursuing it for a while. I love her. I have respected her request and have not even mentioned swinging once since then to her. If she wants to come back great. If not so be it. I'd rather have her than all the swing sessions in the world.

 

Do you see a difference?

[swingingnot4me 17]

This is very simular to what I am going through as well, but my wife acts this way! I was told constantly "Your in the drivers seat", made to feel like I had hang-ups with swinging, and it was all my problem. I almost did the exact same thing you did, tell her its ok for her to go alone and do it without me... But I finally put the breaks on and said its not ok. Im done, she had mentioned through the whole thing that it was my choice, Im in the driver seat. Now we will see if it was all BS. But I suspect it is LOL. Right now Im working on myself, feeling better about myself. Forgiving myself for allowing it to go as far as it did. You cannot control anyones feelings or action, only your own. You have to realise your own self worth. How can you expect anyone to respect you, if you dont respect yourself? Im learning this the hard way =(

[Hippiegirlie 276]

This is very simular to what I am going through as well, but my wife acts this way! I was told constantly "Your in the drivers seat", made to feel like I had hang-ups with swinging, and it was all my problem. I almost did the exact same thing you did, tell her its ok for her to go alone and do it without me... But I finally put the breaks on and said its not ok. Im done, she had mentioned through the whole thing that it was my choice, Im in the driver seat. Now we will see if it was all BS. But I suspect it is LOL. Right now Im working on myself, feeling better about myself. Forgiving myself for allowing it to go as far as it did. You cannot control anyones feelings or action, only your own. You have to realise your own self worth. How can you expect anyone to respect you, if you dont respect yourself? Im learning this the hard way =(

 

I'm sorry you are going through what you are, but it seems to me that your marital issues started way before you decided to try swinging. Unfortunately, this lifestyle tends to magnify the good and the bad in any relationship as I'm sure you have read here and in other forums. I wish you well.

[Earthsand347 20]

I do feel some similarities to swingingnot4me. I am sorry you are going through that.

I do feel that there might a sliver of a possibility that I might enjoy myself in the Lifestyle. But, the difficulty is that I'm with someone who is way ahead of me and because of that sometimes actually gets ahead of me.

Then, somehow he makes me feel guilty for having a "poor opinion of him," telling me not to "keep bringing" up all his past behavior and telling me I am being so negative about that.

I say I am just a little scared each time we (stupidly?) venture into some swinging experience. I think (?) I'm justified in being scared?

I'm interested, but I can't go as fast as he wants.

Thank you for listening!

This board has been my only support. Thank you thank you

[SwingSetWife 442]

Okay, not trying to sound like an asshole but in all reality I don't think swinging is the big issue here. He sounds like a douche and you sound like a doormat. If you are going home somehow feeling inadequate because he "got no action", something is seriously wrong with the relationship altogether. If he gets no action and acts like a wet cat over it, swinging probably isn't for him either. With that being said, the "fault" (for want of a better word) is not entirely his. Your actions are enabling him to act that way. If you would stop feeling like something is wrong with you and put your foot down that there is no swinging until he can respect you, things would be much different... yall might not be together, but still different.

[81lizard69 469]

I say.. even though he is a dildo with arms..

 

Dont you dare play the victim.

 

You had your part in it..as we all do. We agreed to be there and do what they asked hoping that if we did what they wanted we could get our way later on.. then when it does not work out they way you thought it would blaming him is not the thing to do.. I just chalk that up to experience. Look for my mistakes.. figure out how I want to be.. ask like you did here for help and move in a educated fashion to your ideal. Remember some one some where has been through what you have and if you ask.. the right advice will come and you will know it will be true for you.. if you dont.. you might make the same mistake over... but hey its your life. Live it how you want to.. I choose to be the creator of my life and accept the good and the bad... its not a reflection on how I am.. just a experience I decided to have... whether I am smart enough to know I had a hand in those decisions or not is another story..

 

Take life by the horns and wrestle from it what you want.