What Defines Cheating?

[flassh 15]

HappyEyeball: I totally agree that what others "see" is secondary.

 

My comments do read alot like a rationalization but this was not my intent per se. I do enjoy the discourse very much and spouse knows that I read the postings in various threads on a daily basis.

 

My point was that our foundation is so much more than what we grow into or out of as individuals. Previously in this thread I was questioning those with simplistic definitions. I don't want to be guilty of this so I will explain a little better. I think of a structure as the viewable area of a building. It has a foundation that is not so visible. The structure can be torn apart and rebuilt on the old foundation if that foundation were correctly designed and built.

 

Couples that don't build their foundations strong (even when no one may ever see it) they will have problems rebuilding if they ever get hit by a storm that does some damage.

 

My problem with so much of what I am learning here on the board is that I feel topics here on this board are very germane to building a foundation and that many "mainstream" couples would benefit even if they did not show interest in the swing aspect. It is though there is alot of wisdom that is wasted. Sex is for fun to swingers but the balance of input is centered around compassion and wanting to help. Just my thoughts. Thanks, Flassh

[HappyEyeball 15]

"Couples that don't build their foundations strong (even when no one may ever see it) they will have problems rebuilding if they ever get hit by a storm that does some damage"

 

I agree completely. IMO, I'm inclined to think of the issue in simpler terms. I've been through some of the nasty stuff and in my view it *does* boil down to the dry and simple.

 

J&B

[Guest pacouple4u]

Every inidividual and couple has the absolute right to determine which "rules" maintain their comfort level(s) when it comes to the issue of cheating. I feel that it's not okay to "venture" anywhere without "dragging" my partner into it without his/her knowledge and expressed consent. I agree with the likening of this concept to sort of flying "under the radar" of my partner, and that seems awfully close to to being devious in my book. That being said, if one's partner approves of such things and it works for you, then that's your business and nobody else's! My questions are: 1)Do they know before you act and 2)Do you act w/out their knowledge because you think they'd be annoyed, hurt, etc. and 3)What's more important in the long run - nurturing and maintaining that strong foundation (simplistic as that may sound!) by not doing things that could even possibly give your partner cause to doubt you? Please don't misunderstand me - if this works for you, that's wonderful. Straightforward, out-in-the-open direct and simple honest 2-way communication is what works for us and that means we do things with each other's knowledge - and that has worked for us through all of life's storms so far. Life throws enough curves our way; we see no reason to complicate things when it's easily avoidable. To each his/her own!

[Elusive BiFem 70]

You made some excellent points, pacouple4u (and others have too), but a question...

 

Flying under the radar...I understand...but sometimes people might want to "investigate" an area...gather information...before introducing their spouse to something. Maybe to find out exactly HOW to introduce their spouse. Maybe to find out if they think their spouse MIGHT be interested.

 

When I asked this question originally, I was not referring specifically to swinging; however, since this is a swingers board, most answers have come from that perspective. With that, I wonder how many spouses...without being "gently" led to the idea of swinging, would have vetoed the suggestion of even investigation of the subject? As in "Have you lost your freaking mind?!?"

 

Maybe...just maybe...by being here without the knowledge of the spouse...gathering information...some have been able to learn things about themselves, how to approach their spouse, if they should make the approach at all...and maybe some have even discovered it just isn't a place for them.

 

So, given that type of scenario...is it still cheating to be here without the knowledge of the spouse?

 

- EBF

[Guest pacouple4u]

Thank you! Given any type of "scenario," for us, the best path is to be direct. We're not giving each other sales pitches, we're exploring variations of sexuality together... It makes logical sense to us to approach any situation with the idea that both of us have the intelligence to make good decisions based on the (same) facts laid before each of us "on the table," as opposed to some of those facts remaining "under" the table in order to make a more palatable presentation. Our experience(s) have shown us that where plain old simple chemistry exists ("hitting it off well"), there is no need for PR work. When the energy is good with another couple, things just flow nicely and there's no need for anyone to feel compelled to "lead" anyone "gently" or otherwise! Regarding the question of whether it is considered cheating to be in this forum without your partner's knowledge, I feel that in order for this to have a truly "therapeutic" effect on a troubled relationship, one would need to share his/her input with his/her partner. Keeping things strong works better when you share your thoughts/feelings (good, bad, indifferent) with your parnter - whether it's easy or not!

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Thanks Pacouple...there is a lot of wisdom to be shared on this board. Don't you think so?

 

- EBF

[Guest pacouple4u]

You're welcome & thank you also. Respecting individual limits and comfort levels is what it's all about, basically. What those limits and levels are is up to each person! Have a great sunny Spring day!

[yawanna 17]

EBF: I can see your point of this being a research tool regarding swinging, and how in some cases may be undertaken without the partner's knowledge. If we add to that scenario that while the researching partner is online here, the unaware partner walks into the room and asks innocently enough 'what are you doing?'..... if the response is 'nothing' or a quick click on the 'x'..... now we're into lieing and hiding.

 

A huge part of developing trust and keeping it is openness and honesty, that when I ask 'what are you doing?' I get an honest answer, one that doesn't leave me wondering or doubtful. The latter inhibit trust. IMHO. It would be at that point that I would feel it's time to have a discussion about my research.

[NotsoNew 17]

Originally posted by HappyEyeball

For me it's simple. Secrets. Hooking up without your partner's knowledge. It it's out in the open with clear understanding between partners it's not.

 

Mind you, there still may be fallout and damage from activities *with* partners knowledge, but both people went into it with eyes open.

 

My .02.

 

Jeffrey

 

I agree 100% with HappyEyeball. It is the Secrets. I never hide what I am doing from my husband and expect the same in return. Most of the time when we express some suggestions, we agree it is fine. But if I would happen to find out after the fact that he participated in something that we had not agreed on, I would be angry and consider it cheating.

[pairbond 19]

For us, cheating would be anything that betrays our trust in each other. So anything we do with the other's full knowledge and consent is NOT cheating. We have even played separately a few times, but that was only with full knowledge and permission, such as when one or the other of us was out of town on business travel and the one at home was offered an opportunity to play. We have even given each other permission to take advantage of an irresistable opportunity if one arises, so long as we tell each other about it as soon as possible afterward. So sometimes playing with others might occur BEFORE the other of us knows about it, but to us that's not cheating either since we gave each other full permission to go ahead. It would only be cheating if we played behind each other's backs.

[rebelnangel 15]

not being honest and up front with your significent other,hiding things and lieing would be what i term cheating.or if i was told he was hitting on someone,then he lied instead of saying he was.i don't care as long as he is honest and tells me the truth.....

[plazmikgurl 19]

I didn't have time to read all the posts so sorry if I'm reiterating anyhting. For us cheating has been dicussed thoroughly, while we agreed we both are allowed to pretty much whatever we want with anyone else sexually, the rule is we have to tell what happened as soon as possible afterward or if at all possible before anything happens. This is so that neither of us feels we are being lied to. I am very insecure (childhood issues) so I made lots of rules for my guy if he is with anotherwoman, i.e. no cuddling, no love, no intamacy. Eventually we want to find a another women to be "our" girlfriend, and the rules will probably change then. So I'm guessing that every couple in this kind of lifestyle has their own set of rules, at least I hope that if a couple chooses this lifestyle they are open enough to be able to communicate how they feel it should work. So breaking any of the rules would be cheating to me.

[clutch 27]

My wife and I only swing together; but we both flirt like crazy...often in physical ways...usually when were around each other, but it's okay if we flirt when separated. However, we know swinging couples that flirting is strictly taboo.

 

We don't regard ourselves as right and anyone else wrong. It's just our deep, foundational agreements established understandings. If one of us were to change our mind (as sometimes might happen, given a certain situation), we talk it through and if we need to change our minds, attitudes, behavior, etc., we do.

 

We know several couples that date other people separately--more of the open marriage thing versus swinging. We would not dream of doing this. And yet, it works very well for them.

 

We don't like anal, but oral is great--our swing partners are just the opposite. Slightly off topic, but it illustrates the point. Couples, as a couple, are the legislative, executive, and judicial to governing their marriage and what works for them.

 

I would say, dishonesty and/or withholding would be a core issue--not only in relationships and/or swinging, but in any area of a marriage.

[ShellyM 1]

I didn't have time to read all the posts so sorry if I'm reiterating anyhting. For us cheating has been dicussed thoroughly, while we agreed we both are allowed to pretty much whatever we want with anyone else sexually, the rule is we have to tell what happened as soon as possible afterward or if at all possible before anything happens. This is so that neither of us feels we are being lied to. I am very insecure (childhood issues) so I made lots of rules for my guy if he is with anotherwoman, i.e. no cuddling, no love, no intamacy. Eventually we want to find a another women to be "our" girlfriend, and the rules will probably change then. So I'm guessing that every couple in this kind of lifestyle has their own set of rules, at least I hope that if a couple chooses this lifestyle they are open enough to be able to communicate how they feel it should work. So breaking any of the rules would be cheating to me.

 

Yeah, every couple has their own comfort zones. To me, its just important that you tell me beforehand about your rules. With ya'll I honestly would not be able to play with you because without intimacy and kissing I would be stymied and would not know what to do. That gives the other couple or person the opportunity to know that perhaps this is not for them.

[looking2swing 17]

We are very open and honest with each other. I feel that cheating involves anything that requires a person to be sneaky around the other. Hiding phonecalls, flirting with others and not telling the truth about it, etc. We have to be truthful with each other and talk!! Usually the other person doesn't mind so there is no reason to lie about what you want to do!!