Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[CallMeLoki 32]

There's a large difference between lying and not telling the whole truth.

 

Yes, agreed. BUT...both lying AND not telling the whole truth are "deceit" in my mind. True or no? I always tell my wife the truth and the whole truth, to be best of my own self-cognitive ability. Really, maybe we're just splitting hairs over the definitions of the words at this point?

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,536]

You guys made another good observation...I did my best to insure that my wife would be safe for her deal. How would I insure that this woman will be safe where her hubby is concerned during and/or after our potential encounter? Ya know, that is a damned good question. Thank you for asking that. A straight 48 hours of carnal adventure unquestionably would NOT be worth any harm coming to this person! This is something else I need to think about.

 

Harm coming to this woman is just one possible permutation of this Loki. Her husband could come after you or your wife as well. Fucking another man's wife behind his back is one sure fire way to set off the nuclear anger bomb for those with strong anger/jealousy streaks.

 

Plus, they have kids. So, you're going to screw up their marriage behind this guy's back...and not think of the impact to those kids?

 

I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole. I wouldn't care if she were the last woman on the planet. It's not worth it. Finding playmates is far, far too easy to warrant all the potential bad that can come from this.

[bbarnsworth 2,536]

Yes, agreed. BUT...both lying AND not telling the whole truth are "deceit" in my mind. True or no? I always tell my wife the truth and the whole truth, to be best of my own self-cognitive ability. Really, maybe we're just splitting hairs over the definitions of the words at this point?

 

Loki

 

Deceit is lying. If you think not telling the whole truth is deceit, then nary a day goes by that you aren't deceitful. "Hey Loki! How was your weekend? What did you do?"

 

Now, if you don't tell this person everything you did in detail, you're being deceitful according to your definition.

 

Truth and honesty are NOT the same. They are related, but they are not the same. I'm always honest with my wife (except when working on surprises). I'm virtually always truthful with other people (it's extremely rare that I find any cause to lie, much less enough cause to actually warrant lying). If I thought I was being deceitful with everyone by not telling them the entire answer to their question, in detail, I'd never get over the guilt in my life.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Harm coming to this woman is just one possible permutation of this Loki. Her husband could come after you or your wife as well. Fucking another man's wife behind his back is one sure fire way to set off the nuclear anger bomb for those with strong anger/jealousy streaks.

 

Plus, they have kids. So, you're going to screw up their marriage behind this guy's back...and not think of the impact to those kids?

 

I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole. I wouldn't care if she were the last woman on the planet. It's not worth it. Finding playmates is far, far too easy to warrant all the potential bad that can come from this.

 

Actually, he's not a jealous/angry type, he's quite un-emotional in fact...he's just totally selfish. And yes, I have thought about possible impact to their kids...my wife and I have talked about this, but thanks for mentioning it.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Now, if you don't tell this person everything you did in detail, you're being deceitful according to your definition.

 

Ah...so you're saying there IS a value judgement in determining whether NOT sharing every single detail is deceit or not then, right? You have to know what details are important to the person you are sharing the info with, and what details are irrelevant. So, how do you make this value judgement? What if you guess wrong? Do we make this decision ourselves (in which case it's going to be different for everyone) OR is there some absolute source of moral guidance that clearly tells us what that value judgement should be? (And if so, what is it?)

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

So, you're going to screw up their marriage behind this guy's back...

 

Just to be clear...I'm not screwing up their marriage...he is. Would this choice have an impact? Definitely yes. Is their marriage on the rocks because of me? Absolutely not...choices he's been making for years, and continues to make. However, does that make it OK for me to sleep with his wife behind his back? No, it doesn't. If they work out an arrangement between them that allows me to spend a weekend with his wife, then yes it is OK.

 

Again, my question seems to become: At what point does my moral responsibility end for their decisions on honesty with each other? Would I not be making myself responsible for something that I have absolutely no control over? If they agree that she can go away and he will not know who she went away with, do I have any moral responsibility there to tell him it's me? I think the answer is "no", if that's what they've agreed to. But, I'm open to your thoughts.

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,536]

Just to be clear...I'm not screwing up their marriage...he is.

 

If you have sex with his wife behind his back, then you potentially have a very large role in screwing up their marriage. Just because he's a twit and selfish doesn't exonerate you of your behavior. You can choose to take responsibility for that behavior or no, that's your choice and I'm not going to judge you for choosing not to take responsibility. But, not taking responsibility for it does not exonerate you.

 

Again, my question seems to become: At what point does my moral responsibility end for their decisions on honesty with each other? If they agree that she can go away with me, but he will not know who she went away with, do I have any moral responsibility there to tell him it's me (even against her wishes)? I think the answer is "no". But, I'm open to your thoughts.

 

I don't enter into that equation. I'm with fun4Ds. If I can't shake a man's hand and look him straight in the eye knowing he knows I played with his wife, there's something wrong.

 

For my part, I wouldn't just take a wife's word that her husband knows on the first play date (or if we were doing an MFM a husband's word). Either both spouses chime into us that it's perfectly fine to play with one or the other (or both) spouses, it's a no go.

 

And no, it doesn't matter if I trust the woman implicitly. I have a very close woman friend whom I dated for a few years and was engaged to for a few months back in the 80s. She and I are on the phone frequently. My wife knows, has always known, and fully approves. I absolutely, completely and implicitly trust her. I've no intention of having sex with this woman again. However, if it were to become a possibility I'd absolutely insist on talking to her current boyfriend before it went anywhere. It would not be enough for me to hear from her, "Yes, John's fine with it".

 

But that's me. What you do is up to you. I'm not going to judge you based on how I'd do things. That's wrong. I can say, with quite a bit of certainty, that what you are attempting to do is very dangerous to many people for a large number of reasons. Given that there's so many other opportunities for you to get what you want, I just don't see the value in taking such a massive risk.

[CallMeLoki 32]

For my part, I wouldn't just take a wife's word that her husband knows on the first play date (or if we were doing an MFM a husband's word). Either both spouses chime into us that it's perfectly fine to play with one or the other (or both) spouses, it's a no go.

 

But again here I have to ask: even if you've talked to the other spouse, how can you truly ever know with absolute certainty that it's OK with them? For instance, if the wife were saying "yes my hubby can play" how can you possibly know that the hubby hasn't coerced her into saying "yes"? (I'd think this is much more likely than the opposite, right? ) How can you truly know for sure? I'm not sure that you can...you just have to go on your best information, I suppose, right? (This is a sincere question, btw.)

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

I don't enter into that equation. I'm with fun4Ds. If I can't shake a man's hand and look him straight in the eye knowing he knows I played with his wife, there's something wrong.

 

See, I'm not sure how you can make this judgement. Different things may work for different folks. Some swingers play seperate rather than together...you could say "if you're playing seperate, there's something wrong". Well, I'm not sure that's necessarily true...it's a value judgement, is it not?

 

My wife and I would want to know if either of us slept with someone else without pre-approval. BUT...not everyone does. For instance, I once had a girlfriend who told me "if you ever sleep with someone else, I don't want to know about it...don't tell me about it, and make sure I don't catch you." Strange eh? But that was her request on it. I never slept with anyone else while I was with her, but if I had I would have honored her request. Does that indicate something's wrong with her? No, it's a preference. (But there were a few things definitely wrong with her! )

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,536]

But again here I have to ask: even if you've talked to the other spouse, how can you truly ever know with absolute certainty that it's OK with them? For instance, if the wife were saying "yes my hubby can play" how can you possibly know that the hubby hasn't coerced her into saying "yes"? (I'd think this is much more likely than the opposite, right? ) How can you truly know for sure? I'm not sure that you can...you just have to go on your best information, I suppose, right? (This is a sincere question, btw.)

 

Loki

 

I think this is mangling things into the other direction. Since you can't know for certain, even if you hear the other spouse say it, then why bother trying to be certain?

 

Just give up then. Don't play at all.

[CallMeLoki 32]

OK, so I'm going to make what will surely be some controversial statements here (assuming she decides "yes").

 

- The best choice for me personally: Tell him what she's going to do, and that it is with me. I'm not at all afraid to get ask for his permission, I'm pretty sure he couldn't exactly say "no", and I don't have to carry any guilt. Yay for me, right? And that's probably the best choice for him, too. I can't see how this would be the best choice for her, though. I couldn't possibly make a choice that is good for me but harms her.

 

- The best choice for her and her kids: Don't tell him. If they end up divorcing sometime in the future, I'm sure he wouldn't hesitate to use her "fantasy weekend" for any possible leverage where finances, the kids, anything else is concerned...even if he's done things that she doesn't know about, he doesn't have much of a conscience. This choice would put both her and I carrying guilt. Knowing some of his attempted and achieved shenanigans would reduce that guilt I think, but wouldn't eliminate it. How much does the guilt harm her? I'm not sure...again, I couldn't make a choice that would harm her.

 

I'm not sure where "tell him what but not who" falls into this for her. (It might be a good choice in that it gives him a major kick in the ass to make some different choices himself, but that's debatable.) If I had to choose between a choice that is better for her or a choice that is better for him, I'd take the choice that is better for her. So, I don't feel so much of a need to protect myself from him in this...I don't feel much of a need to protect him...she (and those kids) are the one's who would need to be protected in this, and to some extent from him. IMO. This might not be the "morally correct" choice, but to insure that she and her kids are not harmed is the choice that comes from my heart.

 

Now that said, the morally correct choice is probably "don't do this at all". But then, who determines those morals for anyone on this forum?

 

On thinking of this, even though I think I got a "soft maybe" and she's still formulating her thoughts, I'd imagine she's going to come back with a very gentle "no, I can't". She's just not the type of person who would risk hurting someone else, even a hubby who she might eventually divorce.

 

I'm sure these thoughts will provoke controversy, so let your thoughts fly...

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

I think this is mangling things into the other direction. Since you can't know for certain, even if you hear the other spouse say it, then why bother trying to be certain?

 

Just give up then. Don't play at all.

 

So, you're saying "always make the most conservative choice" or "err on the side of caution", correct?

 

Loki

[bbarnsworth 2,536]

so let your thoughts fly...

 

Thanks, but I'll pass. I think I've said anything useful that I could say about this.

[CallMeLoki 32]

If I thought I was being deceitful with everyone by not telling them the entire answer to their question, in detail, I'd never get over the guilt in my life.

 

OK, here's an example of where this perspective breaks down. Hypothetical situation: Suppose she decides "yes" and tells her hubby "I'm going away for a weekend alone with some sex toys." That would be a true statement. She neglects to mention that one of the "sex toys" is a human being (me). She didn't technically lie, but she certainly omitted a pretty important fact...true? And she would have chosen to omit that important fact with the intent of deception. By my definition, this is still deceit...maybe it's very creative deceit, but still deceit nonetheless. And if you're going to be this creatively deceptive, you might as well just flat-out lie.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Hey folks...btw, one thing most people would say about me is that I'm good at looking at things from a bunch of different perspectives. You're seeing that here. It's a good skill, but sometimes it also makes it difficult to actually decide. The decision that I've made so far was to ask. If she says "yes", then I still have to decide whether we go through with it or not.

 

Anyway, I wanted to say "thanks" for all your posts and thoughts. Even if I don't agree with you, I still like to be challenged on it because it makes me think. And thinking things over carefully is the way I generally make good decisions. I try to let my heart influence my mind, but still do what my mind is telling me the right choice is. (The only thing I don't take well is the "kettle calling the pot black" syndrome, if you follow me.) There's not much I rush into with reckless abandon, and I really appreciate you folks challenging me and making me think about it from at least a few perspectives that I wouldn't have thought of.

 

I'm sure Sif and I have become some sort of friggin' case study by now!

 

Cheers,

Loki

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

This thread just verifies to me the lengths some people will go to fuck another person.

 

Loki ~ You want to fuck another woman, you want to swing, use your SLS profile, or go to a club, and met someone who IS A SWINGER.

 

You are what experienced swingers often call a DRAMA SWINGER.

 

LM

[Alura 2,766]

I have but one more post for this thread.

 

In my opinion, what y'all have done so far and what y'all propose for the future has little to do with swinging. (I won't say it has not been interesting.) Many negatives, not the least of which is a possibility of gunfire and potential orphans, have been offered. Yet the thread has gone on far longer than most. I guess that just proves the lure of discussing a subject not usually a concern of swingers.

 

Imagine if you will, Loki, the following worst-case scenario:

 

There is a Colt .45 round lodged about mid-way in your spine. Your playmate lies lifeless under you, her head having been exploded by a hollow-point. You're paralyzed. You are aware that the asshole is cocking the revolver for a third time. Is he intending the bullet for his own head or yours?

 

For a brief second you think of your wife and kids and what may have possessed you to arrive at this point in your life.

 

Mr. Alura

[mixtupcpl 169]

Alura... That is a bonafied bad ass scenario, but it is exactly the kind of thing I'd be thinking. I've seen too many situations that were LESS serious than this come very close to that outcome... Guns drawn over an insult, or $50, etc.

 

And the thing is... No matter how well you think you know someone, you do NOT know their "buttons" unless you've already pushed them. I've seen guys I thought were completely cool snap and do something far out of character over things I'd have never guessed would have been big, then later have them tell me "thats one thing I dont tolerate"

 

This is why honesty and openness is a good best policy. Being diplomatic about situations is the best route to continued well being

 

Loki, I'm curious why you think its going to be such an easy conversation to say "hey man, your wife and I are going to fuck, Sif wont fuck you, but we want to make sure you'll be cool with it"

 

You say the guy is a selfish asshole who is irredeemable, but USED to be a guy you looked up to. Now you are saying this selfish narcissist, will have NO PROBLEM with you saying you're going to be fucking his wife and just need his blessing.

 

To me, this guy doesn't sound that horrible. Sorry to say. I still don't understand why the 3 of you don't just approach him together, read him the riot act, and give him some options for moving forward. Then maybe you can fix both your friendship as two couples (which goes back a long way), possibly get closer than ever, get their relationship back on track, and maybe find swap partners.

 

Have you ever thought that he is being so "selfish" because he wants this lifestyle, assumes that his prudish (your description) wife would NEVER have it, and is afraid to open the topic with her and so has become frustrated?

 

Why shiv the guy before giving him a REAL chance? And no, a buddy saying "hey man, dont do that" periodically when he is considering something bad is NOT a real chance.

[CallMeLoki 32]

 

Imagine if you will, Loki, the following worst-case scenario:

 

There is a Colt .45 round lodged about mid-way in your spine. Your playmate lies lifeless under you, her head having been exploded by a hollow-point. You're paralyzed. You are aware that the asshole is cocking the revolver for a third time. Is he intending the bullet for his own head or yours?

 

For a brief second you think of your wife and kids and what may have possessed you to arrive at this point in your life.

 

 

Ya know, even before I read this, I have to tell you that I'm feeling quite heavy-hearted about all of this right now. I don't think the above scenario would happen. But, it certainly does drive home that I couldn't do anything that might cause harm or hurt for the female friend in question, nor their kids, nor my own family (and probably not him when it really came down to it).

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

This thread just verifies to me the lengths some people will go to fuck another person.

 

Well, in all fairness, it didn't seem all that complicated at first thought. But first glances can be deceiving, can't they?

 

Loki

[Alura 2,766]

Ya know, even before I read this, I have to tell you that I'm feeling quite heavy-hearted about all of this right now.

 

I'm glad to hear that, Loki. It makes you sound like a guy I'd like to call a friend.

 

I don't think the above scenario would happen.

 

You're right, Loki. It probably wouldn't. It's that "probably" that'll kick your ass.

 

But, it certainly does drive home that I couldn't do anything that might cause harm or hurt for the female friend in question, nor their kids, nor my own family (and probably not him when it really came down to it).

 

Loki

 

Good thinkin', Loki!

 

Mr. Alura

[CallMeLoki 32]

I just starting writing a note to the female friend in question essentially saying "Maybe we should just call my question a silly whim and move on from it. I wouldn't want to point you into something that might cause hurt for you or your kids. I wouldn't be showing much love for you if I did that."

 

My wife said "write it but don't send it, and let's talk about it tonight". So, I'll wait for her and I to talk before I send anything. Who knows...for all I know, the hubby could be telling our friend at this very moment "Honey, I decided to move to China without you and the kids". (Not that I'd wish that on any of them, of course.) Who knows.

 

Ya know, being a "nice guy" really sux. Choices like this don't seem to bother a lot of people, some of which I know personally. Why do they bother me? I was actually TRYING to see if I could really make a truly selfish choice for once, but I just don't seem to have the ruthlessness to actually do it. I hope there's some kind of reward in store for me somewhere for the unselfish choices that I usually make. Or maybe I just need a training class in "How to be Ruthless." I guess we'll see.

 

Loki

[Alura 2,766]

I'm convinced there'll be a reward for you, Loki. (Mrs. Alura says she has one in mind.)

 

At the Alura teepee, we honor Mother Earth and Father Sky. They are pleased when their children act in ways that promote peace, harmony, and the preservation of their earth. They're, of course, displeased when their children do the opposite.

 

The Hindus call it "Karma." The Christians observe, "As ye sow, so shall ye reap."

 

I see an opportunity for y'all to sow positive Karma with your friend and her husband. It would require Mrs. Loki to reassess her lack of attraction to the husband, but the two of you could sincerely befriend both of them in an attempt to help improve their marriage through example and a personal caring attitude. Your wife may find him a lot better friend than she had thought. In any case, you'd smile (so would Mother Earth and Father Sky) on the experience with pride and know that you had helped them to a better marriage rather than having driven a bigger wedge into it. If failure is unavoidable, at least you'd have tried to do the right thing.

 

My best to all four of y'all!

 

Mr. Alura

[slevin 1,374]

Very glad to see that you've been thinking about some of the points that people have brought up here. For a while there it seemed like you were asking questions wanting to hear an answer and justify things to any answer that didn't conform to that. Great to see you thinking about things regardless of what direction you choose to go with in the end.

 

One last thought I had regarding all of this (admittedly a little late in the conversation lol), but if you fucked her behind his back (whether she tells him or not) then he can use that against her in a divorce. He may have cheated on her before as well, but if she does the same then at the very least they are on the same footing in the divorce. Right now if she wanted a divorce she would be in a great position to get the kids, child support, alimony etc. If she cheats a lot of that would go out the window.

 

She might not be seeking a divorce right now, but if he really is a dick and she really isnt in love anymore then it's the best solution for all of them (including the kids, even if they never see him). Also, she might find him seeking a divorce if he found out his wife cheated on him. Many men (especially selfish men) just can't deal with their wife cheating on them. As some have said it can drive a normally calm man to violence, but it can also (more frequently) drive someone to seek a divorce. Another thing to think about, especially given how much you care about her.

 

I have lots of thoughts on the other stuff thats come up since I last posted, but there has been many other great comments on those subjects so I'll refrain lol.

[CallMeLoki 32]

I see an opportunity for y'all to sow positive Karma with your friend and her husband. It would require Mrs. Loki to reassess her lack of attraction to the husband, but the two of you could sincerely befriend both of them in an attempt to help improve their marriage through example and a personal caring attitude. Your wife may find him a lot better friend than she had thought. In any case, you'd smile (so would Mother Earth and Father Sky) on the experience with pride and know that you had helped them to a better marriage rather than having driven a bigger wedge into it. If failure is unavoidable, at least you'd have tried to do the right thing.

 

Thanks. Yeah, I do believe what goes around comes around.

 

We have tried to advise both of them countless times over the years. She listens and usually at least tries. For him, it goes in one ear and right out the other, doesn't even register. I dunno...maybe you're right? Maybe we haven't tried hard enough. Come to think of it, my wife is more sympathetic to him than most of the rest of us are. Being the caring person that she is, she's the first one to pipe up and say "Well, he can't help how he is...it's a function of how he grew up." And she is right about the "how he grew up" part...I just don't buy the "can't help it" part myself.

 

Loki

[mixtupcpl 169]

Has she ever confronted him on his behavior? I think she needs to sit down and tell him that his behavior is selfish and hurtful and ask if what he's looking for is for her to leave him and take the kids. Ask him what he feels is missing that drives him to be so self centered.

 

She can also let him know that she can be selfish just as easily, but she doesn't for the good of the family. Is she open to the idea of swinging? Does she have any jealousy issues with him? If its something she would be open to, at some point, she should bring it up. I still think that his behavior may be stemming from frustrations that have been building over the years. It's a big shift in behavior that you're describing and some of it goes to core personality. It's just not the type of change that happens for no reason.

 

You say that both of you have tried to advise both of them... But what did that entail really? If this guy had been a jerk from day one, I'd say she should chalk it up to a mistake and find the strength to cut it off, but the fact that this guy has sort of devolved to what he is today makes me think that the situation is worth working on.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Good questions, Mix. I really think the thing that killed their connection was having kids. They both wanted kids, but to her the kids are quite important human beings, while he's vaguely aware there are some small people who live in their house. Before kids, they were always doing something (he's one of those people who is either busy doing some activity or sleeping, nothing in between). When you have kids, you have to do things with your children. He doesn't get that...he does the same things he's always done (plus a few more hobbies that have accumulated) leaving her to pretty much take care of the kids plus everything else. He works and plays, that's mostly it.

 

When she was a week or two shy of 9 months pregnant with their first child, he went away on a ski trip 4-5 hours away with a bunch of folks...he first said he was going for only one night, then called to say he was staying the whole weekend instead. She could have given birth at any time, but he didn't care, he had a weekend ski party to go to (with lots of non-pregnant women). When the baby was coming, he started to garner up folks to come party in a camper in the hospital parking lot. Luckily, folks with common sense stopped him. "It's the birth of your child, not a wild party."

 

Scroll forward about 7 - 8 years of this type of behavior to now. A few weeks ago, he invited a friend over to have dinner with them, she asked him to pick up some fish to grill while she took the kids clothes shopping with her (so he could spend the afternoon working on his jet ski's), he called and asked her to get the fish because he was at the lake riding the jet ski and had run out of time...and asked her to drive across town to get a case of motor oil while she was at it . Us guys ended up out that night, and had tossed out the idea of going to a strip bar. He asked me if I would ask my wife to lie to his wife about him going (he knows we tell each other everything)...I told him "no", and said "Dude, your wife is already pissed at you...why don't we not make it worse by just skipping the strip bar?" He still wanted to go though.

 

He's pissed me off from time to time also, usually over being ridiculously frugal. He once chewed me out over leaving a light on in their basement. I took out a quarter and said "Here, I'm going to lease the light bulb and it's electricity from you so I can leave it on for 3 months." He took it, and I guarantee you he turned the light off when I wasn't there. He's chewed quite a few folks out about leaving lights on, and other ridiculous things. He attempts to keep the AC on 80 in the summer and 60 in the winter, and his wife will simply change it each time she walks past it. I've mentioned that he asked my wife to sleep with him...I think it's a pretty safe assumption that he's asked every female who happens be around to sleep with him.

 

I could go on for pages here, but it's pointless to do that. You get the idea. He's a true irritating pain in the ass to most people who have to associate with him. I actually do usually feel quite sorry for him (he just didn't used to be nearly as bad)...very few people actually want to hang out with him, and he continues to alienate friends. Many just tolerate him because they like his wife. This won't change I'm afraid...it's part of his personality, and based on the 17 years or so I've known him, I've only seen him get worse. I can't imagine what he'll be like 17 years from now. I'm pretty laid back and I couldn't live with him, I'd be ready to kill him in a week. I honestly don't know how she does it, short of having the patience and tolerance of a saint. If I acted like this, my wife would have kicked my ass out years ago. (And if she acted like that, I'd kick her out too.)

 

She's talked to him many times and told him what she wants and needs, which to me sounds like pretty simple and reasonable stuff. All he needs is sex and all of his free time to spend how he chooses, that's pretty much it. He'll listen to her, say "OK honey, I'll do what you ask", then just continue doing what he's always done. Nothing happens. I can understand her mounting frustration. One day, she's gonna blow, and I'm sure we'll be able to see the mushroom cloud from the 7 miles away where we live.

 

Loki

[PB&J 1,086]

"So, within that, what is your scale for how much you share? Do you share 100% of your feelings about your encounter partner with your spouse, even if you knew it would be hurtful to your spouse? For instance, if you started to feel "in-love" with a swing partner, would you tell your spouse you felt that way, or no? Would you wait and just see if the feeling goes away by itself, or if you can reduce your own emotional attachment? And is there deceit in that, or no? (And I realize you probably have to answer "yes I would tell my spouse" if your spouse participates in this forum as well, so you really don't even need to answer this question here...it's just posed for discussion's sake.)"

 

I can honestly say that in a year of swinging there is nothing that I cannot share with my husband. He's not a forum reader unless I point something out to him, but it wouldn't matter, because we share everything. Our "swinger mail" is a joint account, our memberships on all sites is joint. If I text a playmate, I tell him what we chatted about. This is a mutual adventure.

[PB&J 1,086]

As stated above by PB&J, some deceit is justified (pre-agreed upon in the above case) and some deceit is not, and it depends on the situation.

 

However, you are talking about deceit between spouses, and I stated unequivocally that deceit between spouses is NEVER justified. Don't misquote me.

[CallMeLoki 32]

As stated above by PB&J, some deceit is justified (pre-agreed upon in the above case) and some deceit is not, and it depends on the situation.

 

However, you are talking about deceit between spouses, and I stated unequivocally that deceit between spouses is NEVER justified. Don't misquote me.

 

You did indeed...my mistake.

 

Never say never though. If a married couple said "let's each do our own thing, I don't want to know about yours, and I won't tell you about mine...deal?" and they both agreed to that arrangement, then in my mind the deceit would be justified since it follows their agreement. True?

 

Loki

[Alura 2,766]

Never say never though.

 

Rarely say never, Loki.

 

If a married couple said "let's each do our own thing, I don't want to know about yours, and I won't tell you about mine...deal?" and they both agreed to that arrangement, then in my mind the deceit would be justified since it follows their agreement. True?

 

Loki

 

Justified? Since the terms of marriage must be determined by the spouses, why not?

 

Such an agreement would surely be the beginning of the end.

 

Mr. Alura

[slevin 1,374]

Such an agreement would surely be the beginning of the end.

 

Mr. Alura

 

Indeed, a pact of "you can fuck other women, I just don't want to hear about it" smacks of a woman who has been cheated on in the past. It also suggests some trust issues and suggests she is expecting you to cheat (or testing for your reaction, even subconsciously).

 

For us, when we are talking to playmates if we are uncomfortable with their situation, we just won't play with them. Even if they are completely comfortable with their situation. We talked to a girl who was married and had permission from her husband to play on her own. After talking with both of them we just didn't get a good feeling about their situation; something didn't feel quite right. So we backed away, never played with her. We maybe missed out on a great time, but we've learned to go with out gut the hard-way and now we'll follow our gut feelings even if our heads, hearts or genitals tell us something else. If someone told us they had permission but their spouse doesn't want to know about it, we'd back away immediately (male or female).

 

If my wife suggested that to me, I'd tell her I wasn't comfortable with that situation; we'd talk about it and sort out how to deal with it openly. If we couldn't talk about it openly together, then we're not ready for swinging or that "don't ask, don't tell" scenario.

[CallMeLoki 32]

If a married couple said "let's each do our own thing, I don't want to know about yours, and I won't tell you about mine...deal?" and they both agreed to that arrangement, then in my mind the deceit would be justified since it follows their agreement.

Justified? Since the terms of marriage must be determined by the spouses, why not?

 

Such an agreement would surely be the beginning of the end.

 

 

OK, now you are FINALLY understanding the situation better. She sat him down a year or two ago and said "Maybe we should just live as room-mates?" (which to me sure sounds like exactly what I said above, after I actually stopped to think about it.) He didn't want that and made all sorts of promises about how he would change. As far as I can see, he hasn't kept a single one of them. Like I said before, I think you could say she's already "emotionally divorced" and is (for the most part) trying to just keep peace for the sake of their kids. She still tries to get them back to a better situation, which I see as pretty damned noble of her...but I think she also realizes that it'll probably never happen.

 

BUT...I don't think that "room-mates only" situation would be good for her. He'd take full advantage of it, and wouldn't feel at all ashamed to bring women home in front of his kids I'm sure. She would be the discrete one about it, if for no other reason than to shield her kids from any of it. I really don't think that would work out well for her. But then, in all fairness, she could have 10 dates while he's still begging for one, so who knows...maybe it would give him a swift kick in the ass and a serious wake-up call. I dunno...like I keep saying, it's their marriage and their decisions. If she popped up and said "I'll go, hubby and I have reached an agreement that makes it fair to him, and you don't need to know the details or talk to hiim about it", I'd fully accept that. I wouldn't trust this as true with some woman I met at a swinger's club or online or anyone else, but with her I would trust it, and so would my wife. Her and I have "watched each other's backs" many times over the years, and there's simply no reason for me to not trust anything she tells me.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Indeed, a pact of "you can fuck other women, I just don't want to hear about it" smacks of a woman who has been cheated on in the past. It also suggests some trust issues and suggests she is expecting you to cheat (or testing for your reaction, even subconsciously).

 

 

Yes, it does, doesn't it? I know he's gotten into some sexual play without her (without inviting her, without asking her permission, he just went and jumped in...she heard him in another room and busted him)...in fact, he told me about it rather than her (I think she was too embarrassed by it). She was hurt and pissed at him. He couldn't understand why she was pissed at him (or, maybe pretended he didn't understand?) All I could say was "Dude, what the fuck were you thinking? I don't blame her, I'd be pissed at you too."

 

Knowing him and how he's always on the lookup for a "piece of ass", It's hard to believe that he hasn't had some strange without telling her. (And yes, I know that by itself does NOT justify me taking his wife away for a weekend.) He wouldn't tell me because he knows I'd have to tell her. And I don't want to tell her that I think this either, it would feel to me like I was using unfair leverage to influence her to take off with me for a weekend. But, I have a feeling I don't have to tell her I think that...I'm sure she already thinks it too.

 

Again, it's not my job in life to make things fair for them, though. But, I know the kind of morals this woman has...if she says "yes" to me, she's definitely got a concrete reason to say "yes"...she would say "no" if she did not. Ya with me yet?

 

And to answer an earlier question..."no" I don't think this woman would ever be a regular swinger, it would just be totally out of character for her. I think she'd go away for a weekend with me just because we've had such a long relationship and have always demonstrated to each other that we care what happens to each other, and will generally help each other in any way we reasonably can. So, ya know, even if she's says "no" for herself, it wouldn't surprise me at all if she didn't make it a point to introduce me and Sif to other women that she knows, some of which already swing.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

...Us guys ended up out that night, and had tossed out the idea of going to a strip bar. He asked me if I would ask my wife to lie to his wife about him going (he knows we tell each other everything)...I told him "no", and said "Dude, your wife is already pissed at you...why don't we not make it worse by just skipping the strip bar?" He still wanted to go though.

 

OK, to the poster who called me a "predator" and a "selfish man"...here's an example of the opposite (and believe me, there's hundreds of other examples). I could have easily "set him up" to be in even bigger trouble. I could have said "sure, let's go!", gotten him drunk, paid a stripper $500 to just screw him or give him a blowjob in a booth, told my wife all about it, and let her "accidentally" tell his wife. Guess what? I advised him to do what would keep peace FOR THEM, not what might serve my own selfish interests. And believe me, I've had plenty of opportunities over the years to lead him into trouble that I could have taken advantage of for myself, but I chose not to. One part of me is "tired of being good" in this particular regard.

 

Loki

[rpu3 630]

OK, now you are FINALLY understanding the situation better.

 

Jeez Louise... honestly, all this discussion about their situation and getting "us" to understand it is just getting redundant and pointless when the bottom line for the majority is that deceit and lying for ANY of the involved parties is not a hallmark of either swinging or an open marriage.

 

It just seems like there are more ethical ways of getting your freak on, whether it be swinging or open marriage, without potentially hurting another relationship, no matter how fucked up the other relationship is. And certainly without pages of explanation and justification and trying to get "us" to "FINALLY" understand it or getting us on your side about this particular scenario.

 

As hard as it can be for a guy in an open marriage, my spouse has managed to meet women without the deceit or cheating angles. It can be done. Then again, neither one of us need to fuck someone else so that we have to get into potential drama or to hurt others to do so. We are fine on our own, so we don't need to create bad karma or hurt anyone else in opening our marriage or swinging.

 

To the newbies that may be reading this thread: I hope it is clear that there are many ways to approach swinging and/or an open marriage. This thread is just one exposition of an approach to an alternative marriage/sexual lifestyle. There are a few of us open marriage/not only swingers types on the Board if one wants to check out a different perspective or implementation.

 

Just my .02, and I know everyone else's mileage will likely vary.

[mixtupcpl 169]

Rarely say never, Loki.

 

 

 

Justified? Since the terms of marriage must be determined by the spouses, why not?

 

Such an agreement would surely be the beginning of the end.

 

Mr. Alura

 

Not necessarily... This is what Mrs Mix and I had for the past decade or so. LOL. Of course we both realize it was a mistake. And it was my idea originally (the don't tell part) Not sure what I was really thinking back then, but I think I was kind of denying my own feelings on all of it.

 

If the foundation is strong, you can move past mistakes like this. If it isnt, the end is waiting around a corner anyway.

 

Loki,

 

Their relationship is in really bad shape. I have a few friends that are similar to what you're describing. One is now divorced and actually somewhat of a different guy with the new girl, the others are still together and she remains miserable (although she's found a way to tolerate)

 

It may very well be that there is no way clear for the two of them and that he really just needs to be divorced.

 

That leaves you with the question of whether or not this is a situation you want to become deeply involved in. Now you are peripherally involved in it. Many of our vanilla friends have lousy marriages. We're involved because they bitch to us individually. We give advice here and there, but its rough because our situation is just so diametrically opposite theirs its like we're in different universes (and none of them know our deal either)

 

Would we want to insert ourselves MORE deeply into their crap? HELL and NO. And these are CLOSE friends also (wifes best friend actually comes to mind)

 

Its a sad situation, but what she needs isnt the weekend away. What she needs is to file for divorce to give him a REAL kick in the ass.

 

And as many have pointed out... She can file CLEAN with him being a cheating, neglectful husband and her being a dutiful wife and mother who puts up with his BS. She'll get everything.

[mixtupcpl 169]

As hard as it can be for a guy in an open marriage, my spouse has managed to meet women without the deceit or cheating angles. It can be done.

 

*snip*

 

To the newbies that may be reading this thread: I hope it is clear that there are many ways to approach swinging and/or an open marriage. This thread is just one exposition of an approach to an alternative marriage/sexual lifestyle. There are a few of us open marriage/not only swingers types on the Board if one wants to check out a different perspective or implementation.

 

Just my .02, and I know everyone else's mileage will likely vary.

 

Going to disagree here, RPU. I think this thread is very important because I think newbies *should* be made aware that an open marriage can lead to problems that "traditional" swinging tends not to.

 

Yes yes of course there can be problems with another couple in couples swinging. And of course one half of the couple may not be fully on board.

 

But an open marriage continually exposes you to singles and the single world dynamic. The chance of running into a cheater is astronomical. Also, for a guy, it's really pretty much impossible unless you either pose as a cheater or pretend to be single. Sorry, but thats been my reality and the reality of every other guy I know in this type of arrangement. I'm happy for Mr. RPU that it has been different, but for me, the easiest way to find a single girl is to be on the road, at a bar, wearing a wedding ring. And for all I know, those girls can be married too and lying right? The whole thing is just uncomfortable.

 

I'd also be a liar if I said that over the years Mrs. Mix and I hadnt had entanglements with people who were in bad marriages and cheating. It wasnt as deliberate as what Loki is describing, nor was it people we had a long prior history with, but I do realize that the potential IS there. Just as it is for vanilla singles. We all know that women can line up ARMIES of genuinely single guys (although most of them will likely not be worth the time) whether they say they have "permission" or not. Actually, "permission" tends to help for the female half, which says alot about the male brain. Lots of single guys get off purely on the thought of "getting over" on a "loser husband". That said, even for the ladies, the chance of getting involved with a cheater is very high when you are both off alone play acting as singles.

 

So personally, I think the "open marriage", "lets just go find our own play mates" approach *does* deserve some cautionary tales and this one is a doozy. To me, any curious newbies SHOULD avoid this variation on all of this and just try playing as a couple.

 

Just my opinion on this...

[CallMeLoki 32]

... honestly, all this discussion about their situation and getting "us" to understand it is just getting redundant and pointless...

 

People asked, I'm answering. No offense, but no one is forcing you to read this thread.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

Its a sad situation, but what she needs isnt the weekend away. What she needs is to file for divorce to give him a REAL kick in the ass.

 

Dude, I totally agree. It would give him the kick in the ass he needs, and he'd either change or they'd go their seperate ways. She'd be better off either way, IMO. But she isn't ready to do that.

 

Loki

[rpu3 630]

Going to disagree here, RPU. I think this thread is very important because I think newbies *should* be made aware that an open marriage can lead to problems that "traditional" swinging tends not to....

 

Just my opinion on this...

 

I didn't say that the thread wasn't important. I don't see that in my post at all and thus I'm confused as to a "disagree" in this matter.

 

I said I hope newbies do realize there are other approaches. And that is a perfectly valid point. Loki's experience is not the every experience any more than my experience or your experience is the end-all be all for the open marriage model. And I think it's fair to point that out.

[rpu3 630]

People asked, I'm answering. No offense, but no one is forcing you to read this thread.

 

Loki

 

No offense, but it's okay for me to express an opinion, especially coming from the "not typical swinger" or open marriage perspective. Even if it's not popular or if its a "geez louise" moment.

[mixtupcpl 169]

I didn't say that the thread wasn't important. I don't see that in my post at all and thus I'm confused as to a "disagree" in this matter.

 

I said I hope newbies do realize there are other approaches. And that is a perfectly valid point. Loki's experience is not the every experience any more than my experience or your experience is the end-all be all for the open marriage model. And I think it's fair to point that out.

 

Can you point me to a thread that talks about the alternate (successful) approach or PM me your experience?

 

I'm not being a wiseass. Im genuinely curious because after living this for the better part of my adult life, I just really dont see how it can be an overall positive experience.

[CallMeLoki 32]

But an open marriage continually exposes you to singles and the single world dynamic. The chance of running into a cheater is astronomical. Also, for a guy, it's really pretty much impossible unless you either pose as a cheater or pretend to be single. Sorry, but thats been my reality and the reality of every other guy I know in this type of arrangement...

 

Bingo! Most people are not brave enough to be open about it and say "I want to go fuck someone else", so they take the coward's approach and cheat. It happens all the time. That doesn't make it "right", but it's still reality.

 

Again, my original intention was that Sif and I play together (check the name of the thread, OK?). We made the decision to play alone to benefit her and one of her goals (something I've already explained pages ago, I believe)...that was Sif's request, I honored that and gave her what she asked for. That's how I'm expressing completely unselfish love and complete trust to my wife in this. She's doing the same for me now, but also understands it's a little harder for a man to "hook-up" than it is for a woman. So, before you beat me up too much, please DO consider the whole picture.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

No offense, but it's okay for me to express an opinion, especially coming from the "not typical swinger" or open marriage perspective. Even if it's not popular or if its a "geez louise" moment.

 

Definitely agreed.

[Chicup 38]

Bingo! Most people are not brave enough to be open about it and say "I want to go fuck someone else", so they take the coward's approach and cheat. It happens all the time. That doesn't make it "right", but it's still reality.

 

I think what he meant was that to be a male in an open marriage you either have to PRETEND to be a cheater or a single to get any action. Women don't open up to the 'I have permission' angle like men do.

[rpu3 630]

Can you point me to a thread that talks about the alternate (successful) approach or PM me your experience?

 

I'm not being a wiseass. Im genuinely curious because after living this for the better part of my adult life, I just really dont see how it can be an overall positive experience.

 

You can use the search function for my posts that discuss our open marriage arrangement, and how we view things and are handling things right now.

 

As to the threads that talk about successes in open marriage - again, I think you'd need to run a search using the "open marriage" term to find the few of us who are doing it.

 

As to "successful" approaches - I didn't bring up use that word in particular. There are other differing experiences which could be considered - successful or not. And honestly, I don't know of a thread in which the open marriage folks are singing from the mountain tops as to how successful they are in an open marriage. I think we just expand on our situations when opportunity arises in the various forums.

 

My main point remains there are multiple ways to do things. I'm not promoting open marriage (or poly or swinging for that matter) other than it works for my spouse and I for the time being. Nor am I interested in converting others to to open marriage any further than I'm interested in people telling me that it's doomed to fail or can't work or can't be positive.

 

It's a personal decision and a personal approach and up to the couple to decide whether it's for them or whether or not it's successful. Because it is personal, it seems reasonable to point out that there are other experiences out there to review, if of interest. You have an experience, I have an experience, Loki is detailing their experience and there are others out there for consideration. And that seems a fair point to make and I never said this thread wasn't important or potentially valuable.

[CallMeLoki 32]

Can you point me to a thread that talks about the alternate (successful) approach or PM me your experience?

 

Well, I feel like Sif's experience was "successful". We had a few things to work through, and there's a little unfinished business for her, but she's going to tackle that when her cyber-BF comes to visit for a concert next month. She's glad she had that experience, and so am I. I'm happy for her.

 

But like Mix said, she'll have two encounters before I've even had one. If she wasn't helping me, I'd be feeling pretty left out and uncomfortable about it all. But she is. I don't have to actively help her, she's a woman. She has to actively help me since I'm a man, and she has. We're both trying to make the best choices we can in the real world, help and protect each other, insure no harm to any playmate, keep everything between us 100% honest, and keep everything else as open and honest with everyone outside of us two as we possibly can (which isn't 100% possible, as I'm sure you understand). Can you say that conventional swinging is any different in these terms? I don't think you can.

 

And we'll probably bend some conventional "rules". But there's not a single person on this board who can say they are NOT bending some conventional "rules" by just being a swinger (even if you only swing together), now is there?

 

So, really...instead of criticisms and moral judgements, the best thing I can get from you guys is just helping me work through the process of whether to go or no-go IF the friend says "yes", and how to insure that I protect myself and her. And most of the posts have been really helpful in that regard. However, comments like "you're a selfish man" or "you're a predator" are not only untrue, they are not at all helpful to myself nor Sif. I'm not looking for moral judgements from swingers, I'm looking for help and advice from swingers.

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

It's a personal decision and a personal approach and up to the couple to decide whether it's for them or whether or not it's successful. Because it is personal, it seems reasonable to point out that there are other experiences out there to review, if of interest. You have an experience, I have an experience, Loki is detailing their experience and there are others out there for consideration. And that seems a fair point to make and I never said this thread wasn't important or potentially valuable.

 

Yes! Absolutely agreed. Thank you!

 

Loki

[CallMeLoki 32]

I think what he meant was that to be a male in an open marriage you either have to PRETEND to be a cheater or a single to get any action. Women don't open up to the 'I have permission' angle like men do.

 

Really? Is this true? Do I have to "pretend" to be a cheater rather than simply saying "we have an open marriage?"

 

Loki