Violated by groping

[tncinmd 55]

I'd never touch a woman until we had talked and she agreed to the touching. My wife expects the same respect be afforded her.

[My77038 15]

I'm back to report that at encounters last night no un wanted groping or touching went on. It is a very cl assy and respectful atmosphere. I really enjoied myself. Thanks again for the advice sweet candy. And nice meeting you two sexy fun people. You give me inspiration to not be so up tight.. im working on it.

[BorisNatasha 63]

This whole thread makes me a bit nervous about following through on our plan to go to a club for some fun. It never occurred to me that this kind of thing would happen on the dance floor... I guess I expected it to be a little more civilized.

 

Are these isolated incidents or do I have to worry about getting into a fight over some asshole grabbing Natasha and ruining our night (and possibly future nights if she gets freaked out by it)?

 

Anyone have experience with the Denver area clubs as far as this kind of unwelcome activity goes?

[babycake 15]

anyone had any problems on Sat. couples night at miami velvet?

I'm heading there in the next couple weeks and would hate to encounter situations like that..

[Sweet_Candy 54]

For those of you nervous with your first swing club experience here is our advice. Try to go to an off-premise club verses on-premise. Why you’re wondering? On-premise clubs tend toward the hardcore, which you may not be prepared for. Off-premise clubs can get rowdy too, but the crowd tends towards the softcore. Call the club if possible; ask them about the age range of patrons. We like to go were the range is from 25-45 with the avg. being 30ish. If you see a group train dance on the floor and you don't won't to be touched then move away. Most importantly, try to go on couple's night. There are respectable single males, but the mix of singles males and couple's tends to add a variable to the equation, which can result in miscommunication. Remember No means No! This is MHO and yours may differ.

[My77038 15]

Back to report that we have gone to one other club here recently(a couple times) cuz we like the people. And there was no (unwanted) groping. I am glad I did not let my first club experience at Secrets scare me off. We have thoroughly enjoyed the people we have met and gotten to spend time with so far and look forward to more experiences. I hope those of you who are nervous about the groping still go out to the club and let go and enjoy yourselves. I(the female) have opened up and let go a little and I am really shy but I loosen up some, a work in progress I say.. We have not been to any on premise clubs yet but we are just going with flow of things. MMMMM and and it's fun.

[jss&rks 15]

babycake said:

anyone had any problems on Sat. couples night at miami velvet?

I'm heading there in the next couple weeks and would hate to encounter situations like that..

 

Actually no, Miami Velvet is quite a respectful place. It is a bit more wild at Trapeze.

 

I guess I am in the minority because I really like it when guys come up to me and start groping. In fact, we really miss our old Swing Club in Dallas because the dance floor was always pretty liberal and I like getting touched by complete strangers. For me it is not only flattering, but it turns me on big time. I do not know if it was so wild on the dance floor due to the club being off premise and people were trying to squeeze in as much as they could at the club or what. But I really liked the group groping scene.

 

In Brazil, we visited a few swing clubs and the guys were very very touchy, but they have special rooms for it in the back where it is dark and it is the norm. I loved it. However, I am way into Black and Latin guys.

 

Maybe I am a real slut, but unless the guy is completely repulsive, the wilder and crazier with his touches the better. If by chance he does touch me somewhere that I am not comfortable with or does something that I do not like, I politely but firmly say no.

 

I also love for my husband to be equally touchy with other females.

 

You have nothing to fear with Miami Velvet if you do not want groping.

 

Ciao,

 

Female portion of jss&rks

[Carol_Danny 17]

We also had a couples dance club where they had a curtain surrounding the dance floor. About every 20 minutes, the curtain would close for about 10 minutes, and the dance floor became a free for all of touching and groping. There was no asking as it was just grab what you want

 

If you didn't want to be touched, you stayed away. But I also enjoyed the anonymous touching and group grope that went on.

 

Carol xoxoxo

[Tempest419 15]

I am glad to see this thread because it happened to me too!

 

We just joined a swinging club with the rule that you ask before you touch. Well, indeed, this old married guy did not ask. He came up and introduced himself, sat next to me and immediately lined his thigh up along mine. I moved and then got up and excused us politely (probably shouldn't a done that!) and said we were going to the kitchen. Before he walked away, he reached over and grabbed my breast and said, "Nice!" I was shocked. You think you're gonna slug 'em (which is also against the rules) but like other ladies said, I was just so taken aback I wasn't sure what to do.

 

And guess what... it STILL wasn't the end of it with this guy. I was talking to a young lady later on when he came up and again, stopped to stand beside me with his body touching mine. Well... this time, I literally shoved him away. To which he laughed and then smacked me on the ass before walking away!

 

Husband wasn't sure what to do, and I didn't want to cause a big stink on our first weekend at the club, but by far, I have to say that it does NOT make me want to go back. Husband didn't want to get kicked out, and so he felt at a loss, which I understand, but I have to say the woman in me wants him to punch the MF square in the face. This little old gray haired dickhead is no match, either that or Husband can hold him down.... I broke my hand on my ex-boyfriend's face for doing less when I was 18...

 

Whew! Sorry... I get a little worked up over women being taken advantage of (and yes, men too, my husband doesn't want to get felt up by anyone).

 

Anyway... yes EVERYONE should ask before they touch, and NO violations should be tolerated. While I am half excited to go back to the club, I also will not be attending again until I talk to the owner/manager about it and gauge his response. Going to a swingers club is a place to meet, it does not give anyone and everyone free range to invade your personal space.

 

Sorry 'bout the rant.

[Carol_Danny 17]

Just a few weeks ago, we were at a bar with a bunch of Swingers. It was just an open bar get together for people to meet one another. Carol was wearing a short skirt and no panties, as usual. One of the guys, who we had only met 20 minutes earlier, came up behind Carol and actually shoved a finger halfway up her ass! She almost broke the damn thing

 

I ended up having to have a "talk" with the guy, but he obviously didn't listen. He and his wife were both really obnoxious, and both were trying to give and get oral sex, in a public bar! This was not a Swingers Club by any means, but just a public place. It was getting uncomfortable for most of the others, so I had one of the doormen escort them out.

 

There are times and places for everything.

[sereneiders 263]

I am new in this forum, and I was curious about the meaning of "swinger club" all around the world. We live in Buenos Aires, visited a couple of clubs and we're regulars of a particular club we use to go every Saturday.

 

For as far as I read, it seems "clubs" mean the same there than here, altough there are a slightly difference worth to point out, because it may have to do with the way clubs applies their rules.

 

The "swingers market" in Buenos Aires doesn't seem to be big enough as to enforce a competitive attitude between clubs as to enhance their quality. We have less than 10 "openly declared" SW clubs for a 4 million citizens (12 counting the city surroundings), and mostly the place where they were set leads to the sort of activities you can get into, so if you want to find out a balance between the chance of meeting others and the chance of partying right there, you have your choices reduced to one half.

 

Economy drawbacks (and we know of that here the hard way) also play a role, because club owners needs to make them profitable (or just be able to survive!), so there are times when they can enforce rules and times where they relax the rules. This is something that makes sense from the business perspective, and I wonder how much this factor affects the club policies in mediums sized and little cities.

 

About the rules, it seems there is a compromise involved that tries to balance a broad range of expectation from visitors. As it was pointed out in a post, there are people who go there to be touched, and people who doesn't accept any sort of contact until expressly agreed, with several shades or gray in between.

 

I've seen some post that implicitly made a judgment on the poll answers, in other words, to what other people here expects. Even a woman who admitted she's aroused when being touched said about herself she may be "a slut" (and i believe that was a defensive comment since she was part of the minority here), and the pool itself started from one end of the expectations spectrum, and from that viewpoint the answers were built, so up to me, the discussion "frame" was shifted to that end from the scratch instead of being in the middle.

 

I believe we all have the right to have our own, particular expectations, no matter of which, and it is also expected to find out different expectations on our peers. The only hard rule we all seem to agree with is "No means no", but the problem is "how to ask for a yes?", and the physical aspect in a sexual related issue like this one cannot be put aside: some people feel they have better oral skills (i mean talking!), and some feel their bodies as a seduction resource they want to use.

 

Perhaps we should build up some sign codes, like the ones used by hardcore gays to point out their tastes, hanging a piece of colored fabric (my translator said "handkerchief" but I didn't bought it) from the pockets, or some sort of flag, like "if I wear a blue hat, come on guys and touch me and if I wear a smiley pin don't get closer than a yard or I'll crash your toes with my high hells". But even a sign code wouldn't work.

 

I think the problem is there are not enough of us as to enable clubs to target to specific expectations, so the clubs just have general guidelines on how hard they should enforce the rules, that bring from the actual experience with their customers.

 

So, I suppose the only thing to do when going to a club is to focus on the turn-on's and try to avoid being affected by the turn offs.

 

There are also "body signs" of what you expect. As example, in the club we use to go the dance floor is naturally divided in an area were the wild ones play, and another where people dance as if they were in a vanilla place. I don't know if this happens everywhere but I believe it does and you have to pay attention where you land your feet when dancing. If you'll start dancing seductively in the middle of the dancing floor, people may make a wrongness of your expectations, and if you do the same in a corner, you'd have better chances of giving the proper clues. The same happens with the eye contact you make, and you partner attitude and the attention he or she is paying to what happens around you. As example, if you're a gal dancing seductively and don´t want a physical contact, you partner should pay attention so if someone else approaches you, he only have to interpose his body in his or her path.

 

You cannot expect everyone around to have the same expectations, nor to behave the same way you do, and less in a place where many people is open to end up partying (moreover inside a society very hypocritical about sexuality, with people who still treasures virginity in a bride).

 

As for my experience, the clubs here are pretty lax about rules, it is supposed you have to say no just one time, but my wife got touched several times, and it depends on who and in our actual mood to feel grossed out or not (or even accept or like it). Usually a no is enough, but it happened it wasn't. Most of the times other regulars bring closer and get the offender to clarify the rules, before the bouncers have the chance of noticing. And the few times the bouncers were not aware and a no wasn't enough, I ended grabbing the guy's arm very impolitely and making him notice I was up to start a fight right there. When something like this happens, everyone around notice it, people suddenly spread apart, some others get close to calm things down, and for sure the bouncers get there in 5 seconds. A hard attitude like that hardly would lead to a real fight (it never happened to me nor anyone I know of who did it). But beware, this is not an advice, I am just telling what happens here, and moreover, you can have such an attitude when the bouncers knows you as a regular, or you'll risk to be perceived as "offending" a regular and get bounced.

 

BTW, I also suppose there are cultural differences that affects this balance. Someone described the uses in a Brazilian club, that seems far from USA or Canadian clubs, and I feel Argentinian ones are in between. In fact it always called my attention the difference of meaning it have to touch or be touched by people, even unknown ones, between saxon/european and latin (american?) cultures. As example, people here touch each other, we somehow need to use some degree of physical contact as part of the communication process: the lesser contact here is to kiss someone face when being introduced (depending on the context, even between guys), someone could touch your arm to empathize something he or she is saying, affection is openly shown by means of the contact, as example, hugging people (friends, coworkers). Of course the contact is limited to some parts of the body, in a hug to a friend both parties makes an effort to avoid the "sexual contact" and there is a respect about that, but contact is as natural as talking.

[northindycpl 32]

First off, Welcome to the board! I see you are still fairly new at posting and as well thought out and descriptive as your last post was, I certainly hope you take the time to join in many conversations here!

 

I think it is a club-by-club set of rules, and it is up to the owners to determine the rules enforcement. As in any situation, some rules do become more relaxed during certain times, that is true. It is also true that clubs here, struggle financially as much as most, I think. Maybe that contributes to the rules?

 

I certainly know that there are clubs that allow A LOT of single men in on certain nights, and I have always wondered if it is because they pay twice as many door fees

 

I also agree with you on the culture point you made. We have good freinds that are culturally very touchy, hands-on people. Americans, by and large, are not. That could be a difference.

 

Since this issue at the club, many months ago, I have not seen this particular man back, and the club has taken the approach of subtly reminding most of their rules.

[sereneiders 263]

Northindycpl, thanks for the welcome.

 

A couple of the local clubs here are owned by swingers, or at least one of the partners is swinger. I've seen a notorious difference when a place is owned by people that aren't swingers and saw in the swingers a marketplace to do business.

 

The club we use to go have one partner who is swinger, and one of it first owners was a swinger living in USA, who "brought" here the ruling system and was the first club to enforce rules, and because of this it holds an special place for lifestylers.

 

Usually, Fridays are "threesomes" days, so single males are most welcome to the club, and Saturdays are "couple" days, where single males are not invited, but may step into anyway by paying a high fee (almost two times the couple fee). However, some time ago, single males could enter on Saturdays only if they come way before the night "opening", and there was a quota of lonely guys that, once covered, the remaining ones were not allowed to enter.

 

There was some special circumstances that made it notorious for us all the role playing by financial problems in rules enforcing. A disco set on fire and 200 kids died because the place didn't follow the safety regulations. The spots turned to the City Hall which failed big time in controlling, moreover, it winded up a lot of corruption at every level. That led to a political and demagogic decision to close every disco and club in the entire city until being reviewed, something that stop the activities for one, even two months. Actually, the club keep working just for regulars behind closed doors, or shifting places (like strippers clubs were the poor gals had nothing to do next to the swinger ones ), but that wasn't the same for the business.

 

When "back to normality", the rules about single males just disappeared, and the worst part was, we drag with us a lot of single males that were regular strippers clubs customers who knew of this place because of some short minded people who explained where that wild crowd of crazy people came from, and stepped into the club with popping eyes and a hanging tongue . That lead to some hard situations like the ones I described before, and also to several complains to the owners.

 

Besides this particular situation, from time to time we have to complain and ask the customers to enforce rules, and moreover, to explain these rules to the newcomers, which is the lesser expected thing they should have do.

 

As an aside, a relatively new rule bring up here, that the club really enforce for good, and it is to forbid people to come in with cell phones, because of the digital cameras. Is this an issue there too?

 

PS: Forgive the length of my posts. I've participating in forums for at least 10 years. The problem is that I am able to express the same ideas with half the words in Spanish and even when supposedly a translation from Spanish to English should take 40% less words, up to me it is hard to put them in English so shortly, mostly because I feel I start making serious grammatical mistakes. Since i feel is would be disrespectful for all of you if I force you to "decode" my mistakes, I prefer to put things in a way I feel "right enough" (even when I know that for sure I put things in some funny ways for you . I suppose as I feel confident enough my paragraphs will shorten and several of you will end up pulling my leg about my mistakes . Luckily, I am able to write as fast as I can speak

[northindycpl 32]

As an aside, a relatively new rule bring up here, that the club really enforce for good, and it is to forbid people to come in with cell phones, because of the digital cameras. Is this an issue there too?

 

Yes. The clubs we have been to do not allow cell phones. It could be because of the cameras, although I have also heard that the owners of one just don't want people talking on their phones during club hours. They do keep the phones in the office and if there is a call they will come and get you and take you to a quiet spot to talk.

 

 

PS: Forgive the lenght of my posts. I've participating in forums for at least 10 years. The problem is that I am able to express the same ideas with half the words in Spanish and even when supposely a translation from Spanish to English should take 40% less words, up to me it is hard to put them in English so shortly, mostly because I feel I start making serious grammatical mistakes. Since i feel is would be disrespectfull for all of you if I force you to "decode" my mistakes, I preffer to put things in a way I feel "right enough" (even when I know that for sure I put things in some funny ways for you . I suppose as I feel confident enough my paragraphs will shorten and several of you will end up pulling my leg about my mistakes . Luckily, I am able to write as fast as I can speak

 

I think you are doing a wonderful job with your written english. I am sure my spanish would not be as good.

 

Keep posting and the more you do, the more slang you will learn and the quicker you will be able to respond.

 

I still believe the effort is more important then the correctness.

[intuition897 2,177]

sereneiders said:

BTW, I also suppose there are cultural differences that affects this balance. Someone described the uses in a Brazilian club, that seems far from USA or Canadian clubs, and I feel Argentinian ones are in between. In fact it always called my attention the difference of meaning it have to touch or be touched by people, even unknown ones, between saxon/european and latin (american?) cultures. As example, people here touch each other, we somehow need to use some degree of physical contact as part of the communication process: the lesser contact here is to kiss someone face when being introduced (depending on the context, even between guys), someone could touch your arm to emphasize something he or she is saying, affection is openly shown by means of the contact, as example, hugging people (friends, coworkers). Of course the contact is limited to some parts of the body, in a hug to a friend both parties makes an effort to avoid the "sexual contact" and there is a respect about that, but contact is as natural as talking.

 

Hi sereneiders, Welcome to the board!

 

Don't worry about the length of your posts; I think most folks here just roll their eyes when they see one of my posts because I tend to go on and on...and on... lol You, my dear, have a legitimate excuse of language difference, whereas I do not. I guess I just naturally have a big mouth.

 

I see what you're saying about the cultural differences. It would be really interesting to visit swingers clubs around the globe and see how they differ from one country to the next. I've heard (can't remember where I heard it from) that in North American culture, the concept of polite personal space is something like 2 to 2 1/2 feet, and in some European cultures the distance is about 1 foot. Here, if you're close enough to feel someone's breath on your face as they speak, it's considered too close unless you know them intimately. But in other cultures, not being close enough to talk is considered being stand-offish. And while some people we know are just natural 'touchers' and an affectionate hand on the arm or pat on the back is simply their way to accentuate what they are saying, it's often a surprising and uncomfortable experience to be on the receiving end. We live in a very hands-off society here. Even in crowded places, it's not unusual to apologise and be apologised to for ANY physical contact. Does anyone else do this, or is it just we super-polite Canadians?

[BodyScape02 21]

I am probably going to get beat up on this but... from what I read... it sounds like allot of these men have been reading the Penthouse Forums for too long.

 

The scenario’s of touching a stranger/ woman on the dance floor, removing her top and she is turned on by it, willing and does you right there... sounds like it came straight from the pages of unreasonable male fantasy central ( a.k.a the Penthouse Forum) .

 

In a way the atmosphere is so sexually charged that the combination of alcohol and sexy dancing seem to embolden them ( I usually notice this at around midnight...as if they wait for the women to get drunk enough to be unable to discern they are being taken advantage of) Stippers they can’t touch… I guess they figure… that is where we differ. WRONG, but I am making an assumption drawn from what I read.

 

So I wonder- How could someone new to this tell the difference? So the uninitiated and ignorant… try. I guess they figure … What have they got to loose?

 

I think they also assume like so many who really don’t know this community… it is free prostitution. The proverbial… she swings…she will do anybody… if she is really a swinger.

 

The worst that has happened to me was, at the end of the night watching a couple in the public area some jerk stood next to me and I felt something bumping against my hand... it was his dick... he still had on the tacky “melt if they touch fire” boxers with his phallus hanging out of the easy reach slit in the crotch ... he was looking at me , raising his eyebrows and licking his lips…disgustingly and asking " Hey baby, wanna play with this?"

 

I just looked at him in disgust and said “I will never be that drunk" and walked away saying, "Now I will have to wash my hands!". He is an ass... it is his modus operandi (I have watched him do it since). He hovers around the public area - waiting- for some unsuspecting female to slow down or sit down. ( He has bad B.O. too!)

 

I may be the odd woman out in that I expect this kind of behavior and just deal with it... it has happened all my life... vanilla and otherwise...so I just let them know...as firmly as the occasion calls for and move on.

 

I consider it part of the human territory and they are blacklisted from my playmates of the future list. Jerks are part of life and they are few and far between... so I just accepted it and learned how to shut them down. I don’t see how it ( jerks in a club/life) can ever be eliminated.

 

So you have to learn how to handle them.

 

I think I am the only one who has this opinion.

[BodyScape02 21]

I see what you're saying about the cultural differences.

 

...

 

I've heard (can't remember where I heard it from) that in North American culture, the concept of polite personal space is something like 2 to 2 1/2 feet, and in some European cultures the distance is about 1 foot.

 

...

 

We live in a very hands-off society here. Even in crowded places, it's not unusual to apologize and be apologized to for ANY physical contact. Does anyone else do this, or is it just we super-polite Canadians?

 

This I can speak on...as it is something I have spent time studying.

 

NO, you are not the only one who does this. There are many societal norms for personal distance (try dealing with a Japanese male when you are a woman and 6" tall in heels... they will be very offended, should you tower over them with in 3 ft of them ....lol.)

 

In general the Latin nations have less of a personal space issue and in general dignitaries and movie stars ... require allot more personal space.

 

In France... you touch someone on the arm... they will not jump. It is common to kiss someone on the cheeks hello and goodbye, women hold hands and no one stares. In New York... on the crowded subway... people do all they can NOT to make eye contact in order to preserve the only personal space they can. In the midwest of the U.S.A, you bump into someone by accident in the checkout line...and you will apologize profusely.

 

A great book on the subject is : Kiss bow and shake hands: A guide to doing business in 60 different countries.

 

Wonderful resource... I travel with it whenever I go... it would answer questions you didn't even know you had. I highly recommend it and insist my children read it when we go away to another culture (It is in bite sized paragraphs under headings... practical read... not a collegiate verbose read)

 

Sorry- I know this is off topic, but, I had to comment, as it is an area I study and adore and find endlessly fascinating.

 

Ms Bodyscape

[Mrs Spoomonkey 117]

BodyScape02 said:

I am probably going to get beat up on this but... from what I read... it sounds like allot of these men have been reading the Penthouse Forums for too long.

 

The scenario’s of touching a stranger/ woman on the dance floor, removing her top and she is turned on by it, willing and does you right there... sounds like it came straight from the pages of unreasonable male fantasy central ( a.k.a the Penthouse Forum) .

 

In a way the atmosphere is so sexually charged that the combination of alcohol and sexy dancing seem to embolden them ( I usually notice this at around midnight...as if they wait for the women to get drunk enough to be unable to discern they are being taken advantage of) Stippers they can’t touch… I guess they figure… that is where we differ. WRONG, but I am making an assumption drawn from what I read.

 

 

So I wonder- How could someone new to this tell the difference? So the uninitiated and ignorant… try. I guess they figure … What have they got to loose?

 

I think they also assume like so many who really don’t know this community… it is free prostitution. The proverbial… she swings…she will do anybody… if she is really a swinger.

 

 

The worst that has happened to me was, at the end of the night watching a couple in the public area some jerk stood next to me and I felt something bumping against my hand... it was his dick... he still had on the tacky “melt if they touch fire” boxers with his phallus hanging out of the easy reach slit in the crotch ... he was looking at me , raising his eyebrows and licking his lips…disgustingly and asking " Hey baby, wanna play with this?"

 

I just looked at him in disgust and said “I will never be that drunk" and walked away saying, "Now I will have to wash my hands!". He is an ass... it is his modus operandi (I have watched him do it since). He hovers around the public area - waiting- for some unsuspecting female to slow down or sit down. ( He has bad B.O. too!)

 

I may be the odd woman out in that I expect this kind of behavior and just deal with it... it has happened all my life... vanilla and otherwise...so I just let them know...as firmly as the occasion calls for and move on.

 

I consider it part of the human territory and they are blacklisted from my playmates of the future list. Jerks are part of life and they are few and far between... so I just accepted it and learned how to shut them down. I don’t see how it ( jerks in a club/life) can ever be eliminated.

 

So you have to learn how to handle them.

 

I think I am the only one who has this opinion.

 

Well said BodyScape - you're not alone in your opinion. I sort of expect this kind of behavior too especially at the club. Like Mr Spoo said in his first post on this thread I have never been groped but I do tend to carry myself with a "you'll loose a hand" look (well for the ones I suspect to be that way). Our friends on the other hand know and respect when they can grope (the advantages of being regulars at your club I guess). Most people know who the "problem" men are whether they are single or married and know how to deal with them if they get out of line. We rarely have to call in the owner for assistance most of our ladies can put a man in his place pretty fast.

 

I even had one guy apologize several times for just saying something minorly inappropriate and I let him know that there was no way and I didn't appreciate it.

[intuition897 2,177]

The worst that has happened to me was, at the end of the night watching a couple in the public area some jerk stood next to me and I felt something bumping against my hand... it was his dick... he still had on the tacky “melt if they touch fire” boxers with his phallus hanging out of the easy reach slit in the crotch ... he was looking at me , raising his eyebrows and licking his lips…disgustingly and asking " Hey baby, wanna play with this?"

 

I just looked at him in disgust and said “I will never be that drunk" and walked away saying, "Now I will ahve to wash my hands!". He is an ass... it is his modus operandi (I have watched him do it since). He hovrers around the public area - waiting- for some unsuspecting female to slow down or sit down. ( He has bad B.O. too!)

 

Oh, that is just GROSS! Don't know how you stifled the vomit long enough to tell him to piss off! This little story actually made me shudder. Just...yuck. In another thread (actually one that I started, come to think of it ) I said I had found out that we are actually listed among sexual deviants in the textbooks...under the family of sexual disorders called paraphilias. This includes voyeurs, exhibitionists, and those who enjoy frotteurism (rubbing yourself against an unsuspecting victim). I think THIS was the kind of guy they had in mind.

You also said:

"I think they also assume like so many who really don’t know this community… it is free prostitution. The proverbial… she swings…she will do anybody… if she is really a swinger." I think this nicely sums up what so pisses me off about the misinformation that people are buying into about our little sub-culture.

 

And I looked up the book you mentioned on different cultures on Amazon. Yup, they've got it. Looks like a really interesting read! I've never studied it formally, but cultural differences and how they've evolved over millenia are something I find endlessly fascinating. People really are odd creatures, aren't they?

[BodyScape02 21]

I rather like being fondled ... just not groped ... there is a dif. The first one is about mutual pleasure and is gentle and sensual. Grouping is for and about the person doing it and objectifies me in a way I don't like... Groping is the drive by shooting of the swing world...lol

[sereneiders 263]

I am probably going to get beat up on this but... from what I read... it sounds like allot of these men have been reading the Penthouse Forums for too long.

 

The scenario’s of touching a stranger/ woman on the dance floor, removing her top and she is turned on by it, willing and does you right there... sounds like it came straight from the pages of unreasonable male fantasy central ( a.k.a the Penthouse Forum) .

So I wonder- How could someone new to this tell the differance? So the uninitiated and ignorant… try. I guess they figure … What have they got to loose?

Well, at least here that isn't so uncommon. I've seen this gal who come to the club from time to time, to dance and tease avery guy around, get nacked, and end up being the target of a gangbang (15+ guys with her) right in the middle of the dance floor while other people keep dancing around and doing their own business (which in part was to watch the scene).

 

Now you may say this gal isn't representative of the average swinging women, and I wholly agree, but I also believe she have the right to engage in such a behavior several of us may qualify as bold. Someone even may say this gal is sick, in risk, or something like that, and even if that were right, I'd say it isn't my business (well, it could be... look ahead, about drugs).

 

Without reaching to that point, it use to happen that regulars play with eachother without any previous approach able to give a clue of the personal rules and limits involved for the newcomer, and by playing I mean get naked, touch each other, engage in oral sex, and less often, even f**k right there.

 

If you put in the newcomers shoes watching this scene, and even if you heard of the rules, you may think the rules doesn´t apply for these wild people and feel free to do the same you just saw it happend, so you get closer and grab a tit, or take out your toy for it to get attention. Of course, when that happens, everyone around you suddenly is turned off, and you may be facing a guy pushing you away by your shoulder with a hard on in the other hand. And you may think "what did I wrong?".

 

So, to threat this as a problem of being unpolite, at first you should be able to know what does it mean to be polite in this context, a context where every social rule you learn before doesn't seem to fit. And yes, add some alcohol and you'll have an explosive mix.

 

Even when we have rules, even if the rules were published and well known for the newcomer when about to enter a club, there are several consecuent rules we implicitly know and give us clues of what may be happening in my exmaple scenario, but just because we feel these consecuent rules so natural it's hard for us to see that you need some experience to dedct these rules and feel them as natural too. I mean, give a matematician an equation and at first sight he can tell you how to solve a term, how to put things one after another to get from A to C, without even having tho think of B, but if you give the same equation to a lego like myself, even knowing the theoretical proccess, it would be very hard to me to foresight B.

 

When I went to a club the first time, I looked for local clubs in the web and saw every club had the same rule set posted (btw, the same you use there), but no one told me what I would see as to know people reached that point AFTER following these set of rules insthead of jumping over it. The first time I saw these things happen I was scared, I tought "that guy just pulled out that gal panties and stated fingering her right here, without even asking! will he try to do THE SAME to my wyfe?????????????".

 

As you can see, the lack of clues doesn't affect only the single guys, it affect every newbie in the lifestyle, even curious people who may run away without giving it a try just because they freaked out. At some point, we're not the only victims, and this sort of things make our little subculture more little and more sub than what we'd like it to be.

 

As for me, our first club experience was even worst. After feeling ignored by everyone around, we just looked for a couch and start to play togheter, and Bulebu (wyfe) found out I had three hands... because a guy was carresing her tigh while we were making out. It turned out we choose the wrong day (devised for threesomes) and the wrong couch (where people go to let others jump in without asking). I agreed it was our fault, but no one told us anithing about this. Luckily we were already chatting with other lifestylers who answered our questions, because in any other case I wouldn´t be in this forum, and it was just a matter of luck. Other people may not be so lucky.

In a way the atmosphere is so sexually charged that the combination of alcohol and sexy dancing seem to embolden them ( I usually notice this at around midnight...as if they wait for the women to get drunk enough to be unable to discern they are being taken advantage of) Stippers they can’t touch… I guess they figure… that is where we differ. WRONG, but I am making an assumption drawn from what I read.

Not only alcohol. A gal, friend of us, one night started to behave way too wildly without apparent reazon. We already knew her limits and what was she up to and what wasn't she up to, and we found her engaging in something we knew she wasn't up to. We grab her (almost kidnapped her) and bring her home, where she throw up and passed out. The next morning she was unable to remember anything about what happend, and when we told her, she felt so embarrased that she didn't returned to the club.

 

I searched the web looking for a diagnose for her behavior, and it turned out that is characteristic from being doped with Rohypnol, a psichiatric drug wich break inhibitions, known as the "rape drug". After the lab found out this new "original" use for the drug, they added a blue ink to identify it when solved in a glass (so beware of blue drinks).

 

We alerted the club owners and the regulars, and we're waiting to grab the bastard who's doing that (my personal plan is to give him an orthodontia for free with my knuckles).

I think they also assume like so many who really don’t know this community… it is free prostitution. The proverbial… she swings…she will do anybody… if she is really a swinger.

 

I wholly agree, here we use to say "the fact of being swinger doesn't mean we won't choose".

 

I consider it part of the human territory and they are blacklisted from my playmates of the future list. Jerks are part of life and they are few and far between... so I just accepted it and learned how to shut them down. I don’t see how it ( jerks in a club/life) can ever be eliminated.

 

So you have to learn how to handle them.

 

I think I am the only one who has this opinion.

I agree with you, too.

sereneiders

[SealAndTex 15]

Wording of the poll question is interesting - 'I will touch a woman once, before she says YES, and if she says NO, I will stop'. I don't know how to answer this, as the intention seems to be about unwelcome groping. What are you doing in a sex club if you don't expect to be touched in any way without an explicit verbal invitation?

 

A sensible approach to strangers in a club is the same kind of conversational dance about possible sexual chemistry that you would expect in a civilised non-swinging environment and surely it will include some level of touching - a light touch on the arm, perhaps, or if things seem to be moving the right way a longer touch on other parts that are not explicitly sexual. At a swingers club or party, if a touch like that is unwelcome you are probably in the wrong place.

 

On the other hand we know of no swingers club or party in which it's ok to introduce yourself by just shoving your hand into someone's pants. If there are a lot of people new to the scene who have no idea what is expected, they make think this is expected. Graceless young single males seem to be most likely to groping is the same as a handshake. Somewhat in the same category are men whose female partners are not really into it.

 

We generally don't like inarticulate herds of aggressive males with their cocks in their hand, and have found the best way to avoid this is not to attend a party or club with unrestricted numbers of single men. Exception: Seal was up for a gang bang in which the herds can be useful (this did happen once and she loved it, but may never be up for a repeat).

 

One thing that bothers me about a few of the posts is that a few women talked about behaviour they didn't like, to which their response was to be shocked and walk away. Their are certainly thuggish people who won't take no for an answer, but there are also a lot of people who may be new and don't understand how to make an approach. Just to walk away is ambiguous and invites another attempt.

 

Perhaps it would have been better to actually say the word NO (politely) as in No thanks, I don't feel like it / am with my boyfriend / don't like to be groped without a conversation, etc.

[Bitravlinman 15]

At different clubs, (3 to be exact) all on premise types, my wife was fondled all 3 places without an invitation from her. In one instance the "perp" waited for me to take a restroom break and then went down and latched onto my wife's nipple! Lisa who has little

 

swinging experience feels that it would be rude to stop them, even though they weren't invited to partake. I've told her touching isn't acceptable unless she invites them. She thinks that since we are in that environment, she doesn't want to look like a prude. So she tolerates guys that she really doesn't want around her.

[Mrs Spoomonkey 117]

Bitravlinman said:

At different clubs, (3 to be exact) all on premise types, my wife was fondled all 3 places without an invitation from her. In one instance the "perp" waited for me to take a restroom break and then went down and latched onto my wife's nipple! Lisa who has little

swinging experience feels that it would be rude to stop them, even though they weren't invited to partake. I've told her touching isn't acceptable unless she invites them. She thinks that since we are in that environment, she doesn't want to look like a prude. So she tolerates guys that she really doesn't want around her.

 

Yes she is in a swinging environment but that doesn't mean she's a free for all. It's her body and her choice who she chooses to kiss, let fondle, or play with. Swinging is about consensual sex with other people outside of a couples relationship. They set their boundaries and rules. To me unwanted grabbing or groping as I walk past someone is a violation to me as a woman, wife and swinger. I don't have to "tolerate" anyone.

[sereneiders 263]

SealAndTex said:

(...) Their are certainly thuggish people who won't take no for an answer, but there are also a lot of people who may be new and don't understand how to make an approach. Just to walk away is ambiguous and invites another attempt.

 

Perhaps it would have been better to actually say the word NO (politely) as in No thanks, I don't feel like it / am with my boyfriend / don't like to be groped without a conversation, etc.

 

I agree with you. In the former case, since "no means no" is (or should be) a hard rule, these people deserve to be bounced.

 

Related with the "no means no" rule is the rule that forbid arguing against a "no", on the grounds that if it were allowed to argue (as if you were trying to pick up a date), it is supposed that couples could get tired and refrain from going to a club, and without couples, there are no swinging. So, once a "no" is received, you should just withdraw, and if you don't, you should be bounced.

 

But just bouncing people isn't enough, because if these people doesn't understand why, so they would go to another club, or the same several weeks later, and try another approach against the "no". And for us, the sole fact of having to make someone bounce involve a degree of violence going against the original purpose when we're going to a club.

 

Because of that, and because of the later case you said, about new people, curious, who may freak out because of the lack of understanding, the regulars in our club often prefer to explain and avoid the bouncing (btw, we know the bouncers as to ask them to make exceptions and give the offender another chance).

 

This isn't something openly spoken among regs, it's more like a custom we saw at first and whose mechanics were pretty obvious, thus we follow the lead, and it often works like this:

 

When a couple is being offended and the offender doesn't withdraw, some other regs (usually guys from other couples) surround the offender politely to prevent him (who was always a male) to keep offending. If a bouncer is approaching, we point at the bouncer and tell the guy he's about to be bounced, and we explain the offender the mistake he did and how it's supposed to behave (the implied rules consequences). Someone often play the upset, asking the guy if he really believe his wife or any other wife is a hooker (and the guy doesn't dare to say "yes" even if he think so), so if he calm down and can accommodate to the rules and it applications we could ask the bouncer to give him another chance.

 

This often works and turn to be profitable, at least for newcomers who were able to understand, so some of them still come to the club and understood what it means to be polite in there.

 

We also explain something else that is important for the people who is curious and honestly try to integrate themselves. We told them we're tired of people who come to watch us as if they were going to the zoo, and that we're couples who love and care of each other and in order to protect our relationship we take preventive measures, so if someone is really interested in become a swinger, he or she will have to be patient and expect to be subject of a screening on the way they behave, and for several weeks, without any chance to participate. So, if they want just to have wild sex, it would be way cheaper for them to hire an escort.

 

I believe this is profitable too, because that set an explicit limit on what to expect, both for who expect to circumstantially have fun for free, and for the curious ones who want to be swingers to prevent them from freaking out.

 

BTW, I suspect some newcomer single guys are in fact married ones who are themselves prescreening the ambient because of his own fantasies of trying as a couple, and in fact I've seen lone guys how later on came with his couple.

 

Of course, this seems to be a "job", when in fact this doesn't use to happen ever weekend, and the truth is, this is something that should be pointed out by the club to the newcomers before stepping in (and this may go against the business interests), but at last, I believe we're the only ones who have to take the required measures to turn the swinging into an accepted and respected activity.

 

If we don't take this burden, then we cannot blame others from their misbehavior when facing us.

[txduo2000 18]

I understand many people's thought processes on this subject, on both sides of the coin. It is very easy for me to tell someone else, "Speak up and tell them that they are behaving inappropriately", but it's entirely another for me to take my own advice.

 

Being a person who is (overly) concerned with others' feelings, I do not often speak my mind for fear of hurting someone's feelings. It depends on the situation. I have found myself being touched when I didn't want to be, and simply choose to move away from the touch and hope that the "toucher" gets the hint. That's NOT the best way to deal with it, I know, but it is in the depths of my personality and difficult to change that I do not confront uncomfortable issues if I can avoid them, often at my own expense. I guess in my mind, I determine if a situation calls for outspoken confrontation based on its intensity so to speak. If someone touches me and I don't want them to, I will generally apply the method I spoke of before. If someone were to try to pull me into a room and start really going after it with me very aggressively, I would say something definitely.

 

We tend to go to on-premise parties, and at those parties, we tend to play in the group room. Part of the reason for this is that we like to watch and be watched, but we also like the atmosphere as it is a little more welcoming to join in or have others spontaneously join us. In this situation, I feel that I put myself in that room and that I am kind of a "free for all" ... it's MY mindset, not others', that makes me a "free for all". So in that instance, I typically don't mind being touched by others, whether they ask or not. My husband generally takes the lead in that situation, anyway ... letting people know if it's ok to play with me or not.

 

We are friends with a married couple, and though we do not want to play with them, we have never expressly said so. The husband wants me .... BAD! LOL I am not the LEAST bit interested in him, but I am hesitant to speak up. We see them often when we go to parties. Upon our/their arrival, once we see each other, we will approach one another to say hello. He normally will give me a big hug, and sometimes a kiss on the cheek. He's very polite, but he does make it obvious that he wants me. And there have been times that he has touched me, usually on the butt, and I simply move away without saying anything.

 

On the other hand, I can say that I have never had a complete stranger come up to me and simply start fondling me in a sexual manner. So, given THAT scenario, I can definitely see me saying something, probably along the lines of "Hello? Do I know you?" as I pull away and give him a look like he belonged in a mental institution.

 

I want to also add that my more negative experiences in our 4 years of swinging have come from MARRIED men and not single men. It amazes me that so many people have had such negative experiences with single men, because I simply cannot fathom it. Most that we have met have a clearcut understanding of the rules and what is appropriate and not appropriate, and tend to err on the side of caution rather than risk overstepping boundaries and being ostracized. Several married men have been absolute PIGS, though, thinking that since they have a wife that they are a little less restricted and can simply do and say what they please.

 

By the way, I didn't vote in this poll as there really were no choices appropriate to me.