Darned if we do, darned if we don't...

[Guest]

We are a lifestyle couple that is fairly unique, it seems: I (the husband) am bi, but my wife is straight (well she likes breast play and sharing toys with the ladies, but as for anything else...) She absolutely loves to watch me in guy play, and is very supportive of my orientation- as I am of hers. We live in San Antonio, TX, where 90-95% of couples are made up of bi wives and straight husbands (at least, that they'll admit to), so finding bi men is difficult at best. Yet, just an hour and a half to the north, in Austin TX, there are plenty of bi couples- men and women. In our own home town, we have been marginalized because of my bi persuasion-- I have actually been told that I should change my orientation on several swinger sites to at least 'Open-Minded', or else no couples will accept us (my status is already set to 'bi-comfortable', which is fair enough as far as I'm concerned). So we joined a bi couple group in Austin, yet we have already been excluded from one party coming up in early August because my wife 'isn't bi enough' for them. This party was to coincide with my wife's birthday, which the host knew about, yet still excluded us from the list in favor of couples where both spouses were bi. That is his right, to be sure, but it definitely doesn't make us feel welcome.

 

As you might imagine, this seems to be a HUGE double standard- why would it be okay to be a bi female, yet not okay to be a bi male? We're not accepted by most 'straight male' couples because I'm bi, but now we're not even accepted by the bi groups because my wife's 'not bi enough'. So we're BOTH being ostracized- forced back into the closet, as it were, and 'bi-shamed' for different reasons. And all this in a society that's supposed to be more 'tolerant' of alternative lifestyles. Why the double standard?

[hkdilbert 182]

Just a thought - are you really being ostracized or could it just be that you've been having a problem finding the right groups which you all click well in? Seems to me that coming up with selection criteria which the group is comfortable with works out for everyone. Do you really want to waste an evening with a group that do not share your desires?

[padoc 1,701]

Its not a double standard, its a choice. We don't play with couples with bi men nor do we play with bi single guys. Your choices limit your available demographic. Live with it and quit complaining. Nobody is forcing you into a closet, there are couples who might fit your needs, too bad for you that its a way smaller group than swinging couples in general. And don't talk about tolerance. We're a very tolerant couple. We REALLY don't care how many dicks you suck just don't expect to suck mine or me to suck yours. That's our choice, it reflects our standards and what we want and enjoy. We do not begrudge you your fun we're certainly not "bi-shaming" (whatever the hell THAT is)you, we and apparently others are just not interested in getting naked and playing with bi sexual males. This isn't a civil rights issue, it's a simple choice that couple make for themselves and they have a right to do that.

[Guest]

Wow… That is exactly the type of attitude we are talking about. We are not complaining, we are just trying to get perspective. But with an attitude like that, you would certainly not be the kind of couple we would want to play with anyways, Regardless of orientation. It’s not like we expect every guy to be bi, but it certainly seems like every woman who wants to get with us expects my wife to be bi. So it really comes down to a standard of “we don’t like you because you’re not like us.” How is that being tolerant? Even your very tone is belligerent... why would you care so much to even respond if we're 'not your type'? It's as if those who are homophobic against bi males are convinced that I may attack the guy without warning or permission, or that somehow being bi is 'contagious'.

 

We don’t force our orientation on anyone and I am quite happy to play straight for the right couple. What we don’t appreciate is the exact attitude you just displayed – that we are somehow less 'worthy' or desirable simply because we open ourselves up to a larger field of play. Thank you, however, for proving our point about the bias. And by the way, I notice you didn't mention whether you'd play with bi ladies, or even if your wife is bi. But I wager that she is, and you would... which only proves the basis of our 'complaint'.

[Guest]

To your question, Dilbert- have you ever heard of a group where the guys are bi but the women aren't? If so, I would love it if you could point them out since, so far, we have not found any devoted to that very specific segment. For us, at least, bi play is not a 'requirement'- I can quite happily play 'straight' and often do, much of the time. It's really more the perception that some other people have of me/us that grates on our nerves (as evidenced by the response above). And even outside of the 'bi male' aspect, why should Wifey be penalized for not wanting girl on girl action by bi women? What's wrong with her playing straight, and is it any less acceptable than me being bi? My wife gets very irate that she is constantly questioned by men and women alike on why she is not more bi, whether she has any hangups she could let go of, etc (and believe me, she's gotten plenty of those questions). She simply doesn't like women play that much. Like me, it's the pressure to conform to someone else's standard that irritates her.

[njbm 2,863]

I think that 90% of men are straight and 90% of women will play with women. So you are in the 10% and 10%. To get both 10% in one couple is mathematically tough. I guess you know this and you just have to try harder to find your happy space. Would you consider playing separately? With one bi male?

[Guest]

Njbm, I doubt that the statistic is that high for 'straight' men. How do I know this? Simple- the sheer number of married bi males who advertised on sites like Craigslist (before SESTA/FOSTA, that is) looking for hookups with other bi males. And these were MARRIED men. But in the swinger community, the pressure is to be the men to be straight, and for the ladies to be bi. Where does that pressure come from? Mostly male driven, I'd wager. Most men- whether in the LS or not, have an overriding fantasy that their women engage in bi play. Just look at any online porn site for proof. They have a much harder time admitting that male on male action would excite them- as with anything else, the perception is that it makes them less 'macho' if they think or fantasize about sucking or fucking another guy. Why is that wrong? I think if their wives were honest, most of them would equally enjoy watching their men with other men.

 

My stance is, whether with a man or woman, it's just sex, and at the end of the day I can enjoy both- and still be fantastically in love (and lust) with my wife of 25 years. Incidentally, I have fathered and raised 5 kids with my darling wife, so am I any less a man because I also like sex with men?

[Jane1902 476]

I have seen bi men say they play straight if that is the desire. I have also had straight men tell me they were in a MFM and the other guy said he was straight but when things got hot he forgot. Can other straight men give their input/experiences?

[padoc 1,701]

"It's as if those who are homophobic against bi males". Oh, you do turn a nice phrase don't you? Homophobic is defined as someone having a dislike for or a prejudice against homosexual people. You might want to invent a new word since you've been saying that you're bisexual. You're still whining because your choices limit your ability to participate in swinging activities. Too bad for you!! Still, you seem quite happy with your sexual preferences and Im glad for you. We are too and we should be permitted to exercise those choices without having our tolerance questioned or our disagreement with some of your premises dismissed as being some kind of phobia. Nobody said they don't like you, they just indicated that they didn't like what you DO. As I wrote earlier, you can do whatever pleases you sexually. Quit complaining because a large number of swingers have no desire to engage in your preferred activities. Its their choice.

[JandKinBoise 856]

Your situation isn't that different, it's just different in the swinging world. You mention how swingers are open minded, and that may be, but swinging is a recipe. Women play with women and men, men play with women.

As a bi man with a straight wife, we didn't even bother to look for another couple. She wanted some variety, I wanted to play with both sexes at the same time, mmf was the way for us to go. This allowed us to play in our wheelhouse without rocking anyone's boat. Rather than being concerned that you don't 'fit' into the swinger mold, don't try. It will only frustrate. Be truthful in your ads, replies may be slow but you will get the right ones, if you insist on full swap. And spend weekends in Austin!

[Guest]

You’re right on, JandK. We look for couples when we want straight full swap- and no, I don’t hide my orientation, but I don’t bring it up unless asked. Our play time with honest, open minded straight couples pretty much outweighs the bi male play. Because I also very much like women- and I’ve married an awesome one. We steer clear of a**holes and haters because they’re just that- and we have zero tolerance for them. And unlike what others here have stated, we don’t spend all our time whining or lamenting our choices- neither do we waste time responding to forum threads that don’t pertain to us. But if you can’t vent or look for clarity on a swingers forum topics you’re struggling with, where can you turn?

[Guest]

Padoc, I stand behind my term “homophobic”, because that’s exactly what you are. “Homo” comes from the Latin, meaning “like, alike” (as opposed to ‘hetero’), and also “man”; and “phobic” also comes from the Latin, meaning “an extreme or irrational fear of something. Therefore, in this context the term “homophobic” translates to “an extreme or irrational fear of men, or (in this case) sex with men.” And you still didn’t answer my last question: on whether your wife is bi, or engages in bi sex with other women? As mentioned, I bet she does, and I also bet you’d willingly accept sexual advances from and have sex with bi women, which would also make you a hypocrite, insofar as bisexuality is concerned...

 

But I would never say that about you, because I’m not an arrogant, closedminded bonebutt.

[hkdilbert 182]

Padoc, I stand behind my term “homophobic”, because that’s exactly what you are. “Homo” comes from the Latin, meaning “like, alike” (as opposed to ‘hetero’), and also “man”; and “phobic” also comes from the Latin, meaning “an extreme or irrational fear of something. Therefore, in this context the term “homophobic” translates to “an extreme or irrational fear of men, or (in this case) sex with men.” And you still didn’t answer my last question: on whether your wife is bi, or engages in bi sex with other women? As mentioned, I bet she does, and I also bet you’d willingly accept sexual advances from and have sex with bi women, which would also make you a hypocrite, insofar as bisexuality is concerned...

 

But I would never say that about you, because I’m not an arrogant, closedminded bonebutt.

 

Oh come on - just because someone does not agree with your choices does not translate into an extreme or irrational fear. Your choices put you in the extreme minority. Nobody is faulting you for your choices but you've got to come to grips with the fact that most will not want to play with you on account of that. This is not their irrational fear but rather an expression of THEIR DESIRES. Grow up and get over it - the problem lies with your choices and not the rest of the world.

 

On your last point, based on your replies I suspect many would disagree.

 

Sorry for being so blunt, but many people have tried to reply in a thoughtful and respectful way only to have it come to this.

[Guest]

“Thoughtful and respectful“? Hardly. I wasn’t looking for responses from those who are not into bisexual play. I was looking for responses and possible solutions to the problem from those who are in the bi community – particularly those who have experienced the same thing we have. What responses I have received, with a few exceptions, can be deemed as dismissive at least, and downright rude and aggressive at most. I, for one, would never respond to a post whose subject matter had nothing to do with me. I don’t begrudge others for their preferences. What I do not like is being treated as somehow less than important simply because I don’t have the same preferences they do. We know our preferences put us in a very small demographic- but we also know we are not the only ones in this grouping. We are looking for support and suggestions from those who are in the same boat as us. It doesn’t matter how marginalized we may be – homosexuality was marginalized in society in till only 20 years ago or so, and now it has even become a 'protected' sexual orientation. Whether you like it or not, male bisexuality in the lifestyle is becoming more and more common, and those who engage in it are becoming more and more outspoken about their expectation of being accepted instead of treated as second class.

[padoc 1,701]

Really? If male bisexuality was becoming more and more common (or generally accepted)in swinging what reason would you have to post your whiny blog in the 1st place?? Funny thing, after 12 replies, NOW you say you weren't looking for responses from those not interested in bisex play. I suspect that change was because you failed to strike the chord you were seeking. And almost all of the replies somewhat conversationally pointed out that your desires were outside the general norm thus were limiting your options. If that change is really what you wanted than you're either a very poor writer or you're being deceitful now. Perhaps those folks in Austin who didn't want you around had other reasons.

[Guest]

Padoc, your responses and position on the subject have been duly noted. What in the word gave you the idea that I was speaking to folks who aren't into bi play? The main topic of this sub-page is "BISexuality and Swinging". If you dislike/disapprove of bisexual men so much, then why even bother to respond? No one is holding a gun to your head to make you be anything other than what you are. In case you missed it, all of my initial thread posting referred to those who only play straight as "they" and "them". Meaning, I wasn't talking to them- or you. Or are you so narcissistic the you blithely assume ALL postings are somehow about you? You come off so hurt and offended right out of the gate, as if they are written about you specifically. Which they are NOT. Additionally, you don't know anything about me, nor I about you; yet, you started right off being asinine and offensive, not only about me but about bi men in general. As Shakespeare might say, "Methinks you protest too much." Is it possible that you are so hostile toward bi men in the lifestyle because you yourself are in the 'closet', as it were? That you are jealous of other men's freedom to express their sexual selves so openly, whereas you are shuttered in your own little world unable to break out?

 

Regardless, you've said your peace. Now move along. Nothing more for you to see here.

[padoc 1,701]

I said nothing offensive, I bluntly addressed your posts. Perhaps you're a bit sensitive or maybe you were looking for sympathy instead of truth. I was not offended, I stated and I stand by the statement that I don't care how many dicks you suck, your choice. You're just not going to be very successful in the normal swingers circles. You might want to try Craigs List or gay bars. God, how I love the snowflake penchant to attempt transfer their insecurities to those who disagree with them. Im not hostile to bi men, Im hostile to whiners. Trust me son, Mrs Doc and I have all the freedom we need to express our sexual selves (psycho babble 101??). We just don't do it with bisexual men.

[TheBiggerMan 82]

Tex,everytime padoc appears on the bisexual section, do not argue. Just send him a dick photo. That's what he wants.

[Guest]

You're just not going to be very successful in the normal swingers circles. You might want to try Craigs List or gay bars.

 

There you go again, Padoc- blithely assuming that you are somehow 'normal', and I am not. Your prejudice is so obvious. If I could roll my eyes any louder, I would.

 

 

Bigger, that's a great idea!

[lovefest04 689]

TxSwinger - I totally get where you're coming from and I thank god there are others like us. We are not very active in the lifestyle, but have found it difficult as well to enjoy our particular interests. IE, me the man is bi and my wife isn't. We have had many MMF or even a couple of MMMF and found that men who claim to be straight, willingly enjoy a bit of bi activity when the opportunity arises. In our case, the "straight" men haven't reciprocate, but are happy to have my lips on their cock. Since, my wife gets off on watching men play, this has worked well for us. So maybe, just a bit of adjustment to your strategy may produce opportunities for your to enjoy you're interests. I do think it's harder to find a couple that fits this scenario, but two men and one women where the men can enjoy each other and the women can have two men (her preference) seems like an ideal situation.

 

Now, if you're like me and want to have a bit of variety in the woman department, then I think you need to adjust your listing, lose the bi part and just play straight.

 

On to the bigger point which is that you feel like there is a double double standard at work. You're bi, strike one and you wife isn't, strike two. I agree this is an issue when presented as the only option for you guys. There are plenty of straight couples to enjoy. Whatever, it seems that our preferences are in the minority. I like to think of it as a challenge that we can overcome, that's all. At the end of the day, we all have our preferences and although you may not have been welcome a in Austin, it may not be due to them being closed minded or even trying to ostracize you. They just want people around them that are all in.

 

If you're looking to have fun, I strongly suggest you consider MMF and be open and honest in your requests of the men. I think there are a lot of closeted bi-males in the world and given the opportunity in private (not at a club) they would gladly participate in some fashion. I've heard many men say no unless there is a women in the room, or participating.

[padoc 1,701]

I never said I was normal, I addressed "normal" swingers which you clearly are not. That was your initial point and my conclusion. There ya go pal, we agree on something.

[mrmrsjiggly 111]

My wife and I are a very similar situation and are waiting to see what happens.

[couplers 4,582]

... why would it be okay to be a bi female, yet not okay to be a bi male? We're not accepted by most 'straight male' couples because I'm bi, but now we're not even accepted by the bi groups because my wife's 'not bi enough'. .

 

It just comes down to the brutal marketplace reality of supply and demand.

 

In my mind it's important to be clear about sexual activities. "Bi" refers to being attracted to, and likely having, sex with both your own sex and the opposite. But the activity isn't "bi," it is homosexual. That's why in my posts I refer to my sexual activities with other women as being Lesbian and that part of me as my Lesbian side. It is only taken together, my Lesbian side and my hetero side, that I am bi. So what it comes down to is how much individuals and the individuals together as a group want hetero, gay, and Lesbian sex. If the group wants more of one and less of the other, it will do things to adjust. If you as an individual prefer more of one and less of the other, then a different group is right for you. People can be tolerant of what other people do, but still want what they want individually. The answers, unfortunately, are 1) look harder for the right group and 2) for you and your wife to occasionally play separately - her with straight guys and you with gay men. The fact that we all are nonmonogamous here means that we have those options to explore.

 

 

Early on when I started setting it up for my husband to have sex with other women (I had to choose them), I was surprised how many were willing to fuck him, but disappointed how few would let me participate or even watch. But I never complained, just was nice and eventually I (all of us actually) got exactly what we wanted.

[introvertswingr 55]

Wow, this thread got hostile quickly. TXSwinger, I agree with you. Someone above mentioned swingers being open-minded, but I have actually only found/experienced they are open minded to female on female play. So, anything that will turn the straight guys on is a go, otherwise.... good luck. Is this true of all swingers? No. Is it true of all clubs? I am sure not (though all the ones I have been to). I also would bet that at least some of the women who describe themselves as bi, are not. They are bi for their guy. Why do I say this? I have seen it, and I am probably one of those people to some extent (at least right now).

[pete c 34]

Tx, I did not take Padoc's initial post as hostile or homophobic. A little blunt, perhaps, but that is sorta what you get on the interwebs in general.

 

He did make good points. You and your wife are an extremely rare couple. Finding a couple that syncs with you is gonna be awfully tough. And expecting other couples to modify their preferences isn't going to happen, nor should it.

 

Someone, I believe it was couplers, gave good advice. Perhaps the best approach is to look for singles. Fullfill your desires one bite at a time.

[couplers 4,582]

... So, anything that will turn the straight guys on is a go, otherwise.... good luck. .

Not just "the straight guys," but the women (straight or otherwise) as well. Clair and Lora and I have no interest in seeing our guys or any other guys having sex. It's sort of when they're getting it off, that's for us girls. It's not fair, but sorry, that's the way it is.

[introvertswingr 55]

For what it's worth, there are two couples on the site we are on where the female is straight and the male is bi. This is just of those with whom we are "friends". They exist, it just might take you longer to find them.

[Fitlakecouple 450]

Sure is interesting seeing the self-proclaimed straight guys spending so much time on the bi board spouting harsh opinions. Why invest your time in a topic you have no interest in? I don't like kale. But, I don't go to the vegetable board, subsection "kale" and type paragraph after paragraph about it. just an observation...

[TheBiggerMan 82]

Padoc's problem is obvious to everyone but him i suspect that even his "wife" knows.

[padoc 1,701]

Oh my! I've apparently hurt someones tender feelings.

[TheBiggerMan 82]

Padoc did you get the dick pictures you asked for?

[padoc 1,701]

I think I got yours but it was too small to actually see. Mrs Doc just pointed and laughed.

[TheBiggerMan 82]

Sure "she" had practice enough pointing and laughing being married to you.

[padoc 1,701]

Clearly, you are NOT the "bigger man" in this or any other discussion. Perhaps we'll talk again when you grow up.

[TheBiggerMan 82]

Stop flirting with me.

[Napoleon 230]

I don't bang 50 to 60 plus year old wives with fake breast - that's my "preference".

[Newandnaughty 3]

We steer clear of a**holes and haters because they’re just that- and we have zero tolerance for them.

 

In other words, if your opinion isn’t exactly my opinion then you’re an asshole hater. I like variety in most everything I do, that’s a pretty shitty lens to look at life through.

[Theron 19]

I agree with what someone else said about it being more difficult but you just have to be patient for what you really want.

 

I lived in Austin for some years, then lived in Berlin. The scenes in both places were very open, but Berlin offered more acceptance of bi men than Austin by far. The world of swingers overseas is just more open by and large.

 

There have been many more than a few occasions at swingers parties where men that label themselves as 'straight' will proposition me when they think no one is around. Being authentic is the best way to attract what you want.

[Fitlakecouple 450]

It's okay to have a sexual preference. But, when you need to go out of your way to repeatedly state (in your profile or otherwise) who you will not have sex with, it becomes more problematic. For example, if you feel compelled to state I will never have sex with a black person - it's beyond a "preference" and into the area of "racism". There is not one hot black woman or man on the face of the earth you'd play with? Bullshit! Same goes for bisexual men (or women). If you feel the need to state repeatedly that you will never have sex with a man who has had a bisexual experience(s); (Not that he wants a bisexual experience with you) you my friend are homophobic. Accept it, embrace it, own it. Don't try to explain it away.

[Newandnaughty 3]

It's okay to have a sexual preference. But, when you need to go out of your way to repeatedly state (in your profile or otherwise) who you will not have sex with, it becomes more problematic. For example, if you feel compelled to state I will never have sex with a black person - it's beyond a "preference" and into the area of "racism". There is not one hot black woman or man on the face of the earth you'd play with? Bullshit! Same goes for bisexual men (or women). If you feel the need to state repeatedly that you will never have sex with a man who has had a bisexual experience(s); (Not that he wants a bisexual experience with you) you my friend are homophobic. Accept it, embrace it, own it. Don't try to explain it away.

 

Couldn’t disagree more. I could tell you a thousand times that I have no desire to eat spinach, doesn’t mean I’m scared of spinach, just not something I want to put in my mouth. Does the spinach want me to eat it? Who knows, not my cup of tea so who cares? And what’s your problem with black people? When did a man not wanting to have another mans dick in his face turn into racism?

[Fitlakecouple 450]

Couldn’t disagree more. I could tell you a thousand times that I have no desire to eat spinach, doesn’t mean I’m scared of spinach, just not something I want to put in my mouth. Does the spinach want me to eat it? Who knows, not my cup of tea so who cares? And what’s your problem with black people? When did a man not wanting to have another mans dick in his face turn into racism?

 

Sorry you can't seem to grasp the parallel example of racism v homophobia. Let me put it in your terms. You don't have to put spinach in your mouth - People who say "no play with bi men" are essentially saying I won't play with anyone who eats spinach. You do know bi means 2? They can also play straight... In your terms they don't necessarily want or need your spinach...

[Newandnaughty 3]

Sorry you can't seem to grasp the parallel example of racism v homophobia. Let me put it in your terms. You don't have to put spinach in your mouth - People who say "no play with bi men" are essentially saying I won't play with anyone who eats spinach. You do know bi means 2? They can also play straight... In your terms they don't necessarily want or need your spinach...

 

What I’m grasping is there is a poster that has a differing opinion than yours so you feel it’s ok to say that person has some sort of phobia. Not to be outdone by your first insult, you have to piggyback racism in there too. It’s actually pretty disgusting that you feel the need to attack people when they have opinions that differ from yours. Variety is the spice of life. If all people were the same it would be a very boring world we live in. You may like cherry where somebody else likes lemon, that doesn’t make that person a racist fructophobic, just means their likes differ from yours.

[padoc 1,701]

fructtophobic…I like that!!!! Does it have a flag or a bumper sticker?? Do we need to raise awareness of fructphobia??? How about a ribbon? Or wait, maybe Im a victim of fructtophobes?? Maybe we need more cherry control laws to protect all the lemons. OMG…this is sooooo 21st century. I think I belong now!!!

[Baconheads 426]

Couldn’t disagree more. I could tell you a thousand times that I have no desire to eat spinach, doesn’t mean I’m scared of spinach, just not something I want to put in my mouth. Does the spinach want me to eat it? Who knows, not my cup of tea so who cares? And what’s your problem with black people? When did a man not wanting to have another mans dick in his face turn into racism?

 

Maybe you just haven't tasted spinach cooked by the right cook!

[Newandnaughty 3]

Maybe you just haven't tasted spinach cooked by the right cook!

 

Stranger things have happened in the world I’m sure. We both know it’s not about the spinach or who wants to eat it. Just infuriates me when you have these “tolerant” whackos throwing around insults. That person said in no uncertain terms that if a man doesn’t want to have sex with another man then they are homophobic and racist. Honestly one of the dumbest comments ever made on this board.

[padoc 1,701]

I have to agree! I've seen profiles that state "no kids, water sports or animals". Are those people somehow racist? Would it be racist to NOT have sex with a pedophile or a puppy, especially a black puppy?? Or is that spinach too? Wait, Im confused. Maybe we CAN have sex with a black puppy because we're NOT racist or maybe the puppy wasn't cooked properly. Who the hell knows? How much more ridiculous can political correctness become. Maybe it needs to cook some more!

[Baconheads 426]

I absolutely agree that MM sex is an acquired taste, and no amount of persuasion one way or the other is going to change one's mind on the subject. Sometimes I have been open to it, most of the time not. I don't bring it up with a new swing partner/couple unless they bring it up to me. I'm certainly not going to tell you that you're intolerant or racist (!) if you don't dig it.

 

I remember a time at a local swing club and there were a whole lot of single guys macking on my hot girlfriend. I would ask them, "Can I touch it?" referring to their cocks. That ran quite a few of them off...

[Numex 2,386]

For me, it depends on how the spinach is prepared.

[1hotminute 72]

Have you tried just dating single bi males, or are you guys interested in getting involved in some group things?

[1hotminute 72]

Also you got to learn to put up the ignore sign to these dudes on this site that like to pop into bisexual threads just to put their straight guy two cents in on some shit they have no valuable insight on.