Threesome with cousin??

[LuvsToRideIt 16]

Ok, my distant, 16 yr old (4th) cousin was a virgin, however was desperately looking to lose her virginity. She's always been sort of oversexed, but very picky in terms of who she would fool around with...She's always told me how hot she thinks my boyfriend is, and one day jokingly said she wished she could lose her virginity to him. Well, this turned me on, and I approached him with the idea of him fucking her while I watched. He was all for it, so we talked to her, and after a few drinks one night, it finally happened...and it was GREAT!!!!!!

 

Watching it got me sooooooo horny, however it awakened bisexual desires that I never knew I had. Now I can't stop thinking about a threesome with her, but I'm afraid to ask her for fear of her getting offended...what should I do?

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

When we first read your post, we felt uncomfortable with your cousin's age of 16. Why, it was important to her to lose her virginity at that age and not wait, is beyond us, but oh well...It's too late now to go back there!

 

But in any case, the ONLY way you'll ever know, is to "Just Do It", like Nike says!

 

ASK her, talk to her about it. If she enjoyed herself the first time, she may want to "explore" her experience with the both of you again.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

You've gone this far and you are worried? Just ask her, see where it goes... as a friend once told me... even if she says no, she will know the option is there. It will be in the back of her mind and if she ever has the desire... well she'll come to you with it.

[lycioos 16]

I guess I'm going to be the rain maker on everyones parard, but I think there is a serious aspect that needs to be condisered -your age and the age of your boyfriend. My wife volunteered for years at a preg. center, and had training by a lawyer on a regular basis, she was told that she is required by law to report ANYONE who disclosed that if a minor under the age of 18 had intercourse with anyone over the age of 18. EVEN CONSENTUAL SEX!!! In the state of Fla. it is called statutory rape. My 16 year old sister got caught by a cop (the idiot was in his car in a parking lot) with her 17 and a half year old boyfriend and they arrested him for rape. (this was 15 years ago) My STORONG recomendation is that what is done is done but from here on out---- STICK TO YOUR OWN AGE GROUP!!!!!

[LuvsToRideIt 16]

Originally posted by lycioos:

I guess I'm going to be the rain maker on everyone's parade, but I think there is a serious aspect that needs to be considered - your age and the age of your boyfriend. My STRONG recommendation is that what is done is done but from here on out - STICK TO YOUR OWN AGE GROUP!

 

Well, I am 17, my boyfriend is 29. True, the age thing is an issue, but what the hell? It is not like anyone is ever gonna find out.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

The statutory rape laws vary from state to state in regards to the age factor, and in most cases the state can not press charges, the parents or the girl has to... so the bigger issue is what would her parents say if they found out.

 

I was sixteen when I first started dating and having sex with my husband (who at the time was 24)... which would explain why I never touched the age issue in this topic.

[LostInFlorida 15]

"In the state of Fla. it is called statutory rape."

 

A fairly recent experience with the State of Florida showed us that the laws have changed considerably, and are enforced differently from one city to the next. A lesser indiscretion, in one town, could ruin a young mans life. But a major act of rape, could go unpunished, in another.

 

Any way you look at it, sex and minors can be a bad situation.

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

Either way, the warnings have been issued, and the deed was already done, so instead of condemning these people, why don't we try and HELP them instead?

 

Also, the 'Age of consent' is different in many states. Some places it is as low as 14.

[lycioos 16]

I strongly agree with lostinflorida. In some states you do not need ANY parental opinion to push the issue of statutory rape. I see nothing wrong with an age difference in a relationship. My spouse and I are 11 years apart, but in this instance we are talking about minors and to say "what the hell, who will know?" Well, we now know. Have you ever told a friend or wrote about it in a diary? Ever put his name on your school folders with the words, I Love.....??? What if your friends parents find out? Your friends may choose to tell their parents more than you do. You are treading on a very fine line. A 29 year old should have far more common sense than to ever lay a hand on a 16 and 17 year old. What is he thinking??? What are his intentions??? Obviously Julie's husbands intentions were marriage. In a man, that is the exception, not the rule. He was also 24 - still a 5 year difference.

 

A footnote to anyone who comments - Because she is a minor I advise you to watch your words carefully.

[lycioos 16]

cyberhusband, I got your post after I posted mine. I guess we were posting at the same time. I understand what you are saying and I feel by warning them we are helping them. She really needs to be careful. That young man is playing with his reputation and possibly his freedom. Does he love her? Is he committed to her? Things are things we don't know. Considering his age, how do we know he's not out for a good conquest? I must say again This is treading on some thin ice.

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

And I say again, We ALREADY told them and it's NOT OUR PROBLEM.

 

We need to learn to distance ourselves from much of what we read or we develop stress in our own lives. Are we really trying to destroy our own relationships just because of someone else's post?

 

And in this particular case, they could be from a place where the age of consent IS 14. How are we supposed to know? I choose not to judge based on lack of information.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

AS for my situation, I don't think you can assume that because my hubby and I ended up married, that was his intent from the start. As Cyber said you are making assumptions based on LACK of information.

 

I can tell you that that thought was on his mind before it ever hit mine, but I can also tell you that we were having sex before that thought hit him (or before he knew how old I was for that matter - I graduated young so he had reason to assume (again lack of information) that I was older than I was. In any event while we did end up married it took us a long time to get to that point and we were not together during most of that "long time".

 

Whether his intentions were marriage or not really shouldn't play any matter to begin with really. If what we did was legal where we were than that is all that matters (as far as others are concerned). Was it? I'm honestly not sure. Cyber any idea what the age of consent is in MI?

 

I grew up in AL and down there is (or at least was when I was growing up) 14 as long as the guy is less than 2 years older than you. If he is more than 2 years older than you it can be considered statutory rape.. even if it's barely 2 years (14/16).

 

You can't jump to the conclusions that what they are doing is illegal or wrong based on the information that they have given at this point. Even if the guy is 29 and she is 17, what's that to us. I've seen people in that situation have a much stronger relationship and last much longer than many couples who are 25 and 39 or close to the same age. You can't judge someone and say that because he is that much older that he is out for a piece. You don't know them, and you don't have enough information about them.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[CanadianCouple 18]

Here in New Brunswick, Canada, the age of consent is 14, no matter how old the other partner is.

 

Too young to make an informed decision, in my opinion. Many 14 and 15 year olds here are being impregnated by men in their 30's and 40's, even older.

 

Realistically, how many in here can claim they had their heads on straight at 14?

 

Dan

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

Quote

Originally posted by CanadianCouple:

Realistically, how many in here can claim they had their heads on straight at 14?

 

*Raising my hand up HIGH*

 

ME!

 

For some, it's hard to believe. It all depends on your up bringing. Well, for me, it was...And I was always much more mature than most of my friends, even those who were 18 and above, and especially the male friends I had!

 

I had sex when I was 15, my b/f was 19. Of course, he knew what he was doing, and so did "I". Just wished I had a better sex mate though! *LOL* I told hubby, "Where were you all my life?!"...*LOL*

 

My first husband was over 7 years older than me. I guess the mature level was about the same as mine by THAT age...*lol* The guys at my age, just wasn't matured enough for me, I guess...

 

I guess it has something to do with females maturing at an earlier age then males... So I guess, this was a question for the "guys"?

[CanadianCouple 18]

CyberWife --

 

Actually, it was a question directed to both genders. Personally I've never heard of someone that age displaying the level of maturity necessary to make profound, potentially life-altering decisions without at least some adult input. (and I don't mean the adult wanting to have sex with them). How many of us retain the same opinions on issues well into adulthood we had when we were 14 or 15? Life's experiences go a long way in shaping our viewpoints as we grow older, and at that tender age there just haven't been enough of them, coupled with the fact that children (and yes, emotionally they're still more child than adult) make decisions based on instant gratification more than anything else. And that's why handing them too much freedom too soon is a recipe for disaster. As an example, can anyone really believe a 14 year old can make an informed decision on their own whether or not to get an abortion? Avoiding a crimp on their social life isn't any foundation to make that decision, but I'd bet it would weigh heavily in their decision for the majority of them.

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

While I tend to agree with Dan in a very general and limited sense, I also know that what he has said is a rather broad generalization. There are exceptions to everything, and who are we to judge who and who is not an exception to this rule?

 

My own wife was 15, Julie was 16, I personally know of others that were as young as 13. All of them that I know now, are people of good character and do not promote this type of behavior in younger people.

 

In some countries, women are expected to understand and have adult attitudes about sex, family and other issues as they are 'married off' at very young ages. And they seem to be able to handle the pressures of adulthood rather well.

 

Here in the USA, it used to be common practice to marry girls off at 13, 14 years old. If a girl was still unmarried at 16, she was considered an 'Old Maid' and it was assumed that there was something wrong with her.

 

May I point out that here on this board, we can hardly expect to get more than the surface of anything that is posted and we should be more careful about making judgments than in condemning others for doing something that we feel is wrong.

 

And some wonder why we push communication so much. Only through real communication will problems be handled to a good result.

 

We try, and we hope.

[LostInFlorida 15]

Another issue, I would think, would be the emotional impact of this type of introduction to sex. Will she still be able to develop the emotional bonds necessary for any kind of a lasting marriage?

 

Each person is different, of course. The emotional maturity, in most of the teenagers we have come into contact with lately, is sadly lacking. From what we have seen and been told, their conception of all sex, is entirely recreational. I don't know if this changes, as they grow and mature. It is a sad thing though, to think about going through life and never be able to develop these bonds with a mate.

 

Maybe a swingers introduction to sex would make no difference either way, for her. But certainly it is something to consider.

[lycioos 16]

Cyberhusband is right. I became to emotionally involved towards the begining of this one. I think the parent in me came bursting out. I have a son who is just entered his teens and this is rather alarming for me. Just the mere thought of him beginging to becomes sexual active.............YIKES!!!!! He's still my baby!!!!!!!

 

Anyhow ---I still think waiting the year until all is legal is in everyones best interest, but I certainly can't stop her.

Till then, just hope she's taken all this in.

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

Quote

Originally posted by CanadianCouple:

.....As an example, can anyone really believe a 14 year old can make an informed decision on their own whether or not to get an abortion? Avoiding a crimp on their social life isn't any foundation to make that decision, but I'd bet it would weigh heavily in their decision for the majority of them.

 

I realize that some have lived a very sheltered life. But there are those that haven't, and have had "life-altering decisions" placed upon us at such an early age, as young as 9-10-11-and up! Helping to raise your siblings, while your single-parent is out working trying to make a living for their families, working their butts off, while their young children are home taking care of the "domestic" responsibilities!

 

I understand them, when the younger generation feels as if society looks down on them, saying things like, "You don't know any better, you're just a kid!" Or "You're SO immature, what do YOU know!" Yada yada yada...And this is SO not true anymore, from generations WAY back! And when I was at that "age", I'd think to myself (and sometimes voice my thoughts out loud too *lol*), that "You don't really know me. How dare you judge me." And most of the time, adults don't know the younger generation, and what they're really capable of handling, as far as "life-altering decisions", etc...

 

WE are all "Individuals". We have individual needs. We all have the capability of processing individual thoughts and desires, and coming to our own conclusions. May not be the ones that others agree on, because we are who we are, and not what you believe or think you know...

 

BUT, all "I" know is, that I was able to achieve "life-altering decisions" and GOALS on my own (from such a young age of 10 years old), and I am proud of those decisions! And I gave my own children the same "privileges" as I had, but "modified" the way I was brought up to our own family values and needs. And I am proud of our children! And DAMNIT, we did a GREAT job too!

 

As for the abortion comment...In our school systems where I came from, we were taught about sex education IN school, by our teachers & staff, with the community also, from about 4th grade.

 

I remembered going to a field trip to the Planned Parenthood clinic, learning about birth control, parenting, abortion, and all that good stuff! Hands-on learning, getting up on that abortion table, heals in the stirrups, knees spread apart, gown on, feeling vulnerable and what it's like being on that table as the patient, visualizing and handling all the procedure equipments to perform the abortion, shown videos of an actual abortion, what the fetus looks like during the time of procedure, and what the dead fetus looks likes after it is removed...Am I missing something here?

 

And then given the choice of birth control or abortion?

 

THAT'S where your "life-altering decisions" starts, as far as abortion goes (and for some, even at an earlier age), at least where "I" came from.

 

A lot of my g/f at that age was already having sex. And at that time of the field trip and sex education in class, they decided to use precautions and chose birth control over abortion...

 

Like I said, some of us lived sheltered lives. And some of us chose to help prepare our children in making these "life-altering decisions" at a younger age...

 

It's the older generation that needs to listen more to our children's needs. For some of us, our first impression is hard to change. But change is good, and that's how we "grow".

 

Man, I'm tired. Been a long day! Can you tell... *lol*

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

I also had sex education in school, starting in the 4th grade and ending in the 7th. We learned all about what sex is and is not, and why, where, when, how... etc...

 

Too bad there are too many parents that oppose this type of education in schools today. I think it would cut down drastically on unwanted pregnancies and such. It's just not 'politically correct' anymore. And people wonder why I have an attitude.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Originally posted by CyberMWCouple:

 

As for the abortion comment...In our school systems where I came from, we were taught about sex education IN school, by our teachers & staff, with the community also, from about 4th grade.

 

I remembered going to a field trip to the Planned Parenthood clinic, learning about birth control, parenting, abortion, and all that good stuff! Hands-on learning, getting up on that abortion table, heals in the stirrups, knees spread apart, gown on, feeling volnerable and what it's like being on that table as the patient, visualizing and handling all the procedure equipments to perform the abortion, shown videos of an actual abortion, what the fetus looks like during the time of procedure, and what the dead fetus looks likes after it is removed...Am I missing something here?

 

And then given the choice of birth control or abortion?

 

 

Wow, wish they'd had field trips like that when I was in school.. of course even if they did, my mom would never have let me go. I didn't learn about planned parenthood till shortly before I got married.

 

Of course, nowadays all they want to teach in schools is abstinence (makes my mom so proud), which I think is pure BS. No wonder kids today can't make informed decisions, we aren't providing them with the tools to do so. When all you do is tell your kid not to have sex.. when they do do it they are going to be too worried about sneaking around and not worried enough about safe sex (believe me I was there). It would have been nice to have been a well-informed sexually active teenager but that wasn't the case at least not for me.

 

But I was one of those who at a young age was making life-altering decisions, and for the positions I was in I made the best ones I was able to. If I had had parents who were open to discussing things with me I might have made better ones. But at least now I can look back at the decisions I did make and know that I learned some major life lessons from those decisions. And because of that I think it is very important for parents to arm their children with INFORMATION, not just rules. I think it's great that schools teach abstinence is the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancy and std's but at the same time they need to teach the children what to do in the instance that they decide to not choose abstinence... and parents should do the same.

 

Ok, I'm done ranting.

[Stratecpl 19]

Julie,

 

I have to agree with you on your statements. Just telling kids not to have sex is not exactly getting them fixed up with the right information and it certainly doesn't give them the proper knowledge to make important decisions. Our kids are getting into sex education this year, and I think it's a great thing for them. HOWEVER, if they start asking if they can WATCH us..... THEN I must draw the line!!! LOL

 

And I also agree, that some teenagers CAN and DO make important and sensible decisions. These are based on their own experiences, like Julie pointed out earlier. Some children mature faster than others do, that's a natural fact. Look at me, I haven't matured YET!!! LOL

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

AMEN, Julie!!!

 

And I did just that, provided my children with the "tools", discussing "consequences", meantime providing "choices" for them!

 

Sheltering your children will NOT, I repeat, will NOT help them to make "life-altering decisions" in their lives, and/or at an earlier age as well...We're not helping them by doing this, even though we feel that we're giving them all the love we know best by doing this, but we're still not helping them.

 

Julie, your comment HIT it right on the nose!

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

Anyone ever hear of 'Tough Love'?

We like our children to be prepared for life, not hidden from it.

[CanadianCouple 18]

Since the 60's, sex education has been taught in the public school system. Also since the 60's, birth control has been widely available to anyone who wants to use it.

 

Why then, if sex ed and birth control are the answers, have teens been giving birth in record numbers during the past three decades, to the tune of one in three being born out of wedlock? Can anyone seriously claim teens today are uninformed about sex? Why was the birth rate so much lower in the preceding decades when teens were as dumb as fenceposts about sex? Sorry, the proof isn't in the pudding on this one.

 

Regarding "tough love". Yep, we believe in it too, but you're using the term completely out of context on this one. Tough love is forcing kids to live by the consequences of their actions, not enabling them to further engage in the same behaviors that got them in hot water in the first place.

 

Sorry if I'm ruffling feathers here, but it's beyond me how anyone can make the claim that more information earlier in life has improved things for teenagers. During my three years of high school, '73 to '76, I knew of two girls in the entire SCHOOL who were pregnant. Now there's at least that many in each class.

 

Perhaps they slept through sex ed.

[Stratecpl 19]

Dan,

 

There's always going to be a few who "selectively hear" what they want to hear. They might hear and know, but they are STILL going to take that chance, smoke that joint, drink that beer, drive that car fast.... I know. My oldest was living proof of how ignorant a child could possibly be. If it was wrong and if it was forbidden, then he was certainly going to do it. Naturally, that type winds up as statistics. And it wasn't because he wasn't told better, either. But you're right, there are a lot of unplanned teenage pregnancies these days.

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

Since the 60's, sex education has been taught in the public school system.

 

Not true in the USA. I recall that it is against the law to teach sex ed in parts of the US without parental permission actually.

 

Why was the birth rate so much lower in the preceeding decades when teens were as dumb as fenceposts about sex?

 

I can answer that, but I hesitate because everytime in the past I have given the answer, I get nothing but flames in return.

 

Regarding "tough love". Yep, we believe in it too, but you're using the term completely out of context on this one.

 

You misunderstand my point. giving them the information is the first step. Then if they fail to follow your rules, you get tough. But doing so without giving the info first is nothing short of abuse.

 

Sorry if I'm ruffling feathers here, but it's beyond me how anyone can make the claim that more information earlier in life has improved things for teenagers. During my three years of high school, '73 to '76, I knew of two girls in the entire SCHOOL who were pregnant. Now there's at least that many in each class.

 

Again, the real reason for that is something 99% of the people will rail against and so what's the point of even answering?

 

And only 3 years of high school?

[CanadianCouple 18]

Quote

Originally posted by CyberMWCouple:

And only 3 years of high school?

 

Just a quick note before heading to work. Up here, high school consists of three grades, 10 through 12.

 

 

[Stratecpl 19]

Our 10 year old son will be going into the 5th grade next week when school starts back..they will have sex education this year...in the 5th grade...I'm not sure if I like that or not... 10 is a bit young I think to start sex education. And I have to admit..it will "wise him up" too much too... He walked in on Ron and I once several months ago... We told him we were "nude wrestling"... He bought that explanation... LOL HEY I know that was a dumb thing to say but geez...we were caught and had to think fast!!! And when all the blood from your brain is down south at the moment then you don't think too clearly... LOL Anyway... NOW... if he gets "edu-ma-cated" at school this year then he's gonna KNOW we LIED!!!

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I think they need to start at least 10. You figure they are learning it from their friends at that age or younger nowadays, plus it's about then when his body starts changing. I don't think that they should tell them EVERYTHING at that age.. but they should definitely be starting. Then again, I think it's the parents responsibility to teach the kids what they should know and not rely on the schools to do it (or wait till they've started getting misinformation from their friends).

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

I think it's a very good thing that the schools in your area are doing this. If you have the time, I would go so far as to advise you being a parent volunteer. If your child is going to learn it, then he may as well get the right information from the beginning and not have to rely on friends and other questionable sources. Not to mention, if you are there, then you can explain to him that you and daddy did not have time to explain it to him back when.

[Flori_DAMAN 26]

With 5 teenage daughters in the house, sex education is nothing we would ever leave to the local schools to take responsibility for.

 

Our 17 yr old however does have a baby and while we kick ourselves in the ass now and then with guilt it is a situation that we live with and the baby is a real angel.

 

Abortion was not a serious consideration for either her or us, as we raised her and the others to stick to there beliefs no matter what the circumstances.

 

She chose not to abort because she believes abortion is not a good option, not because we forced the belief on her. We did in fact offer it as an option for her and she emphatically refused it.

 

Times are very different now. Parents have no way to change society. There were many less teenage pregnancy's in the 70's when I attended high school but it was a different world then.

 

Neither sexual education, caring, loving, tough love, heartfelt concern or attempting to control every aspects of a teens life can prevent them from doing what they darn well want to do at that particular moment.

 

I also have two boys that are out on there own now. With all these kids believe me we have been through sex, drugs, thugs and I have very little hair left to pull out.

 

Having the experiences makes me marginally more qualified however. I am certain that this week will bring about another situation that I am totally unprepared for because we have at least one each and every week.

 

TV, weird teachers, radio, freaky violent movies, music that promotes everything from killing cops to torturing animals, designer drugs, total disrespect for older people compared to when I was an adolescent, are some factors that we live with now that hardly existed in the 70's.

 

Also the legal system has basically put a smart kid in total control of parents. Whether there is abuse or not a kid that knows the law can manipulate parents with false accusations. If you think your kids are unaware of this then you are sadly mistaken. Kids communicate this information and if you do not communicate with your kids you may be in for a rude awakening. I have witnessed some of the best people I know be forced to there knees by a narcissistic teenage girl that decided she would use the system against her parents. They payed hell to even keep there other kids and reputation. Of course there is probably less abuse going on now, these laws should be changed to afford equal protection to innocent parents.

 

To try to go back to the days of old when kids were ignorant of sex and did not get pregnant is like trying to make the earth change its directional spin. It just ain't gonna happen.

 

Whether you agree with the new age sexual liberalism or disagree with it you cannot change it, so moaning and groaning about society is a complete waste of moaning. We can find better things to moan about (obvious wink).

 

If you have kids you had better not put there lives in anyone else's hands. Do not trust your schools, do not trust the government, do not trust their friends, just be there every waking moment (and sleeping moment too) and be totally aware of where they are and what they are doing.

 

Our kids have no choice in this part of their lives. If they do not inform us exactly where they are and who they are with they have hell to pay. We have drug testing equipment which by the way you can get online for about 8 bucks a shot. They know that if they want a life they will submit to a drug test immediately upon command. Now, if you are still living in la la land and smoking pot then don't even bring it up. Whether its right or wrong pot is illegal but if you do it and your kids are aware (which they are) then you are condoning them using it. I am amazed at how many parents smoke pot because they believe it is ok. They are pissed at the kids and the law when the kids get arrested for it and turn there lives upside down too. Cmon, most of us know that pot is basically less harmful than alcohol but the laws are the laws, do yourselves and your kids a favor and QUIT before its a HUGE problem.

 

If that test turns positive they have no life. It is that simple. The police nor the schools nor the kids' friends can force us to let them out of our sight until they turn of legal age. If our kids do drugs or go somewhere without permission we take there lives away. They still eat and sleep but they have no phone, tv, use of an automobile or even outside air for as long as we please. So it doesn't matter to us what the schools teach or don't teach. I attended one or two PTA meetings and felt like puking afterwards. Most of the people there were much more interested in impressing the other parents than actually improving conditions at the school and they only listen to the highest on the social pecking order so what is the use of trying to change the schools?

 

As far as sex goes, kids are gonna have it and they will deny it and lie to you if they think you will restrict them for being honest. Its a lousy position to be in but you gotta grin and bear it. I am very hard on there boyfriends...so is Tam, they are scared shitless of me and know that if they lie to Tam or put one of the kids in peril we will attack them like pit bulls with a boil on its ass. They also know that they had better have frequent, and honest conversations with us if they plan on taking our daughters outside of the property...so it kinda puts them in a tuff spot too huh.

 

No one has all the answers and no one is gonna force the evils out there to go away. You just gotta be there for your kids, it is your responsibility and do not blame anyone when they go astray, and now and then they will. Johns 2 cents.

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

Originally posted by michigancouple:

With 5 teenage daughters in the house, sex education is nothing we would ever leave to the local schools to take responsibility for.

 

I agree, but the schools offer this because so many parents neglect their duty to their children and fail to teach them these things.

 

Originally posted by michigancouple:Times are very different now. Parents have no way to change society. There were many less teenage pregnancy's in the 70's when I attended high school but it was a different world then.

 

Yes, it IS a very different world these days, but parents DO have a means to change it. Teach your children the right ways to live and make decisions, and the world will be that much better off.

 

Originally posted by michigancouple:TV, weird teachers, radio, freaky violent movies, music that promotes everything from killing cops to torturing animals, designer drugs, total disrespect for older people compared to when I was an adolescent, are some factors that we live with now that hardly existed in the 70's.

 

Again, this is something that you CAN teach your children to deal with in an intelligent manner, just as with sex.

 

Originally posted by michigancouple:Also the legal system has basically put a smart kid in total control of parents. Whether there is abuse or not a kid that knows the law can manipulate parents with false accusations. If you think your kids are unaware of this then you are sadly mistaken. Kids communicate this information and if you do not communicate with your kids you may be in for a rude awakening.

 

This is because we allowed it to happen by not VOTING like a RESPONSIBLE adult. If you don't vote, then you have no right to bitch. If you do vote, then good for you. Now teach your children that society is not always right and that they need to be better than the person next door.

 

Originally posted by michigancouple:To try to go back to the days of old when kids were ignorant of sex...

 

No such thing unless your parents kept you in a box. Kids talk, and sex is a favorite subject. They knew about it, they just did not let their parents know that they knew.

 

Originally posted by michigancouple:...so moaning and groaning about society is a complete waste of moaning...

 

Again, a defeatist attitude. Teach your kids right and help change the world.

 

Originally posted by michigancouple:I attended one or two PTA meetings and felt like puking afterwards. Most of the people there were much more interested in impressing the other parents than actually improving conditions at the school and they only listen to the highest on the social pecking order so what is the use of trying to change the schools?

 

Try voting them OUT! (assuming you vote for school officials in your area) If you don't vote for them, then lodge formal complaints. Too many people have the attitude of 'whats the use', and that's a big part of why things are the way they are.

 

There are other factors, but if we each tackle the ones we CAN control, then our children will grow into people we can be proud of. That is assuming of course that you don't decide that they are stupid and can not, or will not, learn anything from us. Far too many parents have that idea and in reading some of the posts in this board, I can see it in them. Quit downgrading your kids! Anything less is not responsible parenting.

 

Just to answer the questions I hear in your minds, Both of us work very closely in and with the community and school systems JUST because of this.

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

As far as "trying to change the school systems"...."Puking" isn't gonna do it! Parents NEED to get their asses INVOLVED!!! Plain, but not that simple, but I think OUR children are worth it! And I did just that, got my ass INVOLVED!!! And my KIDS, parents, teachers & staff, and the community thanks ALL volunteer parents for that! I have no idea what communities everyone comes from, but all I know is, that we did our BEST to help better our communities through getting involved in the school systems. Another form of TOUGH LOVE.

 

And yes, we can't "depend" on others (schools, community, etc.) to "educate" our children, but TOGETHER WE ALL MAKE A DIFFERENCE!

 

My "background & experiences" goes a long way, especially in these areas (and sure a lot of others do too), and when subjects or questions are brought up, I answer them to the best of MY experiences, truthfully & honestly....And that's all I did here.

 

SO, when I answered your question, Dan...I answered according to MY experiences TRUTHFULLY & HONESTLY....If you can't except that, then I can't help you there. Somewhere along the line, you have "quarrels" in these areas of life, and I'm sorry for that.

 

BTW, michigancouple...There are drug test kits available in our local pharmacies too. I'm sure in other local areas as well.

[lycioos 16]

My son went through sex ed. in 5th grade and it was a very positive experience for us. (so far so good) HOWEVER as michigancouple said, be actively involved, which we were. We checked out the materials from school BEFORE he ever saw them and we went over them with him as a team. We talked honestly and openly with him. We didn't lie or beat around the bush about anything. Communication is the key in any relationships, even your children. No that doesn't mean they have to have answers to everything. Some things need to be personal and sacred between a husband and a wife, but answering on a generic basis is o.k. Best they learn from you because if not, they will get their info elsewhere. To the couple who's son walked in on them: A suggestion is before he has sex ed. sit him down and talk to him. Tell him you didn't know how to react and you lied and you are sorry. It won't happen again. Explain to him that mommy and daddy were showing each other love. Believe me, he will respect your honesty. You don't have to give details just basics. It will also reassure him of his own security by seeing that you have a loving relationship. Better for the truth to come from you, then for him to find out himself. Kids have a way of resenting us in the long wrong for the stupid and innocent mistakes we make.

 

Read the last part of the Michigan couples statement. They are right on about that. The should know, they have enough of them:}

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

Quote

Originally posted by CyberMWCouple:

....Just to answer the questions I hear in your minds, Both of us work very closely in and with the community and school systems JUST because of this.

 

And we don't even have any children in the school systems anymore, they're all grown and on their own now! We're just doing our part and looking out for our future Generations....God knows, we need ALL the help we can get!

 

GET INVOLVED!

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I think the most important thing about being open and honest with your kids from the start about sex is that when it comes time for them to have questions they will come to you.

 

As MichiganCouple stated if your kid things you are going to restrict them for being honest.. they will lie (I'm living proof), so don't put them in that position. If you leave the door open for them to communicate honestly with you about everything then they will do that. Granted there are always going to be times when they need to be punished but it shouldn't be for being honest with you.

 

If you teach your kids to be responsible and let them know that if they have problems they can talk to you openly without fear of getting in trouble for a mistake then they will. If you don't leave that door open they are more likely to go out and make things worse to cover up what they've already done.

[CanadianCouple 18]

Wow. Where to start.

 

Michigan's post at 12:34 is one of the best examples of clear thinking I've seen posted. Not terribly politically correct, which makes it even more on target.

 

Why on earth would we rely on government to decide when our children are ready to be taught about sex? Cyberhusband, you make a grave error in judgement on your reasoning for advocating school sex ed, namely that some parents are lax in that area. True, but just about all us parents are lax in some way, and letting government do our job for us is a rocky road you'd better be careful of travelling down. Do you really want a blue ribbon government agency looking over your shoulder, making certain you're raising your kid the way THEY think you should? Sorry, but no government hack knows more about raising my kids than we do. Let them raise their own, and we'll do the same.

 

In fact, name me ONE government program that's run efficiently.

 

And Michigan is right on the money about kids today being amateur street lawyers, knowing exactly how to manipulate the legal system. God help the parent who tries to instill some sort of ethical code in a kid these days, he'll find himself in family court before he can blink. They cry abuse and the family is torn apart, whether the abuse occurred or not. Yet another example of short-sighted thinking kids are so well known for, not considering the long term consequences before dialing up DSS. It's almost the domestic version of the nuts running the nuthouse, with the parents too terrified of their kids to act like parents. Trust me, we see it every day. Thanks to Hillary's "it takes a village" mentality, everyone's got their noses in everyone else's business. No it doesn't take a village, just loving, caring parents.

 

No, we can't revert back to the days of Leave it to Beaver, but teens were in a hell of a lot better shape back then, they're in a comparative mess today.

 

Cyberhusband -- you alluded to knowing why there's so many teen pregnancies today as compared to a generation ago, and are reluctant to state it here. I'm not, so here's the skinny on that as I see it.

 

Shame. Or more specifically, a lack thereof. In our hysterical quest to remove any and all reasons to feel ashamed or embarrassed for our actions, we've all but rubber-stamped our approval for teens to have sex. Even as recently as 25 years ago, a pregnancy outside of marriage was still frowned upon, but no more. With no reason to feel embarrassed, with parents everywhere ready and eager to fill in as grandparental babysitters, with social services ready to jump in with monetary help and legal advice on siphoning child support from dad, any attempts to instill some sort of moral code is lost in the crowd. Murphy Brown glorified single motherhood, and Dan Quayle was vilified and scorned when he raised a lone voice of objection. But looking at the teenage carnage around us, it's damned hard to argue with him.

 

It's with the best intentions we ask our kids to make a choice between abstinence and 'responsible' sexual activity. Our mistake is in assuming they'll think like adults -- which they're not. Consider the following scenario - your 14 year old wants to drive the family car solo. You explain how you feel they're not old enough to do so, not responsible enough, not mature enough... but then tell them you'll leave the keys on the kitchen table in case they decide to anyway.

 

The keys will be gone the instant your back is turned, because in THEIR mind you've just given them permission to drive. Your long winded explanation why you think they're not ready is long forgotten, they're only interested in doing what they want. We've gotten ourselves into a terrible mess with our kids, and I'm tapped for ideas on what to do about it. But I'll be damned if I make my kids wards of the state.

 

Anyway, that's MY rant for the day.

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

Dan,

 

Hell no I don't want ANYONE to be controlled by the government!

 

Since the above is not the case, then SOMEONE needs to educate these children. Who do you suggest? The pedophile next door, or the rapist down the street? NOT giving them the information is as I stated earlier, abuse, and might even help lead to their deaths at the hands of one of the 'neighbors'.

 

Why is the world in this state?

 

1. The government. Because of government interfering where it has no business, We all suffer. A law professor told us all on the first day of class that every one of us without exception had broken at least 16 different laws simply by being born. How can anything be sane in that kind of environment?

 

2. Psychology and Psychiatry. It's cruel to discipline your child. Didn't you know that? It's wrong to have emotions and feelings that might possibly impinge on another's world. Just by even posting here, I am causing untold harm to who knows how many that read this.

 

Of course it's mean to spank your child. The world will KILL them if they are not ready to deal with it. Here we are back at Tough Love again. There is an undeniable correlation between the escalation of government requiring us to have our children headshrunk and the rise in crime, family problems, teenage pregnancies, suicides, poor academic performance, and a host of others that directly relate to the well being of the family.

 

I fully expect that some of you reading this will disagree. Fine. That's your choice, but don't try and change my mind, because I already know better.

 

And by the way, for those of you who still believe in God, as I do, did you know that psychology and psychiatry are based on the supposition that you are nothing more than an animal and that the soul is a lie? Look it up for yourself. How helpful is someone that does not care about my soul? THAT scares me.

 

Between the government eroding our civil rights, and the shrinks eroding our families, it's no wonder the world is as fucked up as it is.

 

And one last thing, We used to get married at very young ages and have babies. we just didn't CALL it teen pregnancies, because it was the norm. The ONLY thing that has changed, is the way we PERCEIVE it. And the current perception is the one that the shrinks have foist upon us at the behest of government.

 

And that's MY rant.

[CanadianCouple 18]

CyberHusband --

 

Your point by point explanation of what's wrong today is right on the money, couldn't have said it better myself.

 

My wife worked as a daycare teacher for four years, and she was appalled at the parents who allowed their children to engage in just about every kind of antisocial behavior you can imagine, without the slightest fear of reprisal. Even dads, the one parent we all feared as children, have devolved into spineless wimps who allow their children to run amok without fear of any punishment. The reasons for this are the proliferation of child psychologists who claim just about any form of discipline is abusive, and guilt the parents feel over leaving their kids with third party caregivers. After all, who wants to play the heavy after not seeing the kid all day? But someone has to step up to the plate when necessary, or you've got an obnoxious brat on your hands. We've even declined to pursue friendships with other couples (non lifestyle) because their kid's behaviour is so abhorrent we don't even want them in our home. What should be a disciplinary situation usually instead becomes a 30 minute moratorium trying to cajole the snot into doing what the parent wants - without damaging his self esteem of course. It'd be comical if not so tragic.

[Flori_DAMAN 26]

great conversation, CanadianCouple, thanks for the positive response and I believe you articulated eloquently on the subjects also. I would bet that if we met we could have some great times over some beer and chile, and each other of course

 

Julie, the words you used have made me look at my teen girls differently, thanks for sharing such intimate feelings. This lifestyle is great for bringing up subjects that simply would not come up at the moose lodge, or the local church but that need to be addressed.

 

Lycioos, great advice on how to deal with the caught in bed situation. It has happened to us and believe me the kids have a NO BARGE rule....its impossible for us to do it without at least some of them hearing us so we just bang and squeak and squeal away now without even thinking about it...that is hilarious when you ponder it I guess but shit man we gotta do it and there are usually a dozen or two ears around the house....lmfao

 

Cyber husband, I am very happy that you and your wife get involved with your community so much. It sounds like you honestly care and are a positive influence. Believe me, if it were not for the fact that every waking moment is spent at work or in some type of involvement with the kids (we have very little time to even enjoy our favorite hobbies , we would be more active. Not everyone needs to be involved up to there necks in there communities. And if I see no one that I care for running for office then I simply DO NO VOTE....its not a crime not to vote and it is a rare moment when the choice is not simply the lesser of two evils so why bother.

 

The school boards mentality in my area is reflective of the mentality in most areas of this country and I have damn right expressed my opinions, loudly and often. My name is well known in the opinion section of our local newspaper.

 

First of all the fucking football team is the most important thing at the school, as it is at most schools. For gods sake, people FLOCK to watch big boys fight over a damn little ball but totally ignore things like debate teams, or academic challenges. My oldest son graduated with a 3.94 average from high school and 3.7 average in micro biology at U of MICH....but who gets recognized? Whose picture is in the paper, and where does the funding go? The argument is that football is a money maker, and this is logical to some extent, however SHOULD it be???? And I can talk until I am blue in the face and will guarantee that I will be received with blank looks, like I have suggested that their wives be screwed by the the first string linebackers of the 49ers...hehe...oh my I'm drifting now....lmao.

 

I believe it is hard to be in this lifestyle and not be a libertarian btw and I also include myself in that category. When I do gather up the ambition to vote I simply throw it away on the libertarians that may be running. Oh well, life is fun anyhow and I am out to enjoy it, I have done caught myself moaning and groaning as I advise people not to, but ya know....you people all have great point of views and I learn something from all of ya...have a great day, John.

[CanadianCouple 18]

John, it'd be great to meet you two as well. I'm sure the four of us would get along just fine, and who knows...

 

Ahh yessss.......our fine public education system, where it's more important to feel good while getting a wrong answer than it is to get the right one. Were you aware some schools have banned spelling bees? You see, some precious self esteem might get damaged if a kid loses, and damn it, it just isn't fair if everyone can't win.

 

2+2 may not equal 5, but if it makes you feel good thinking it does, well, that's all that matters. Our dumbed-down education system has already manifested itself in the corporate workplace, some of the typos contained within memos are mind-boggling.

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

Reading these posts about how bad our education system is, I laugh and shake my head, remembering when "I" was one of them that made such negative comments too! *lol*

 

Realizing that bitching about it wasn't gonna change a damn thing, I got involved from being a parent volunteer to eventually becoming an education employee since the mid 80's to present.

 

I'm proud to say, that we've not only made a BIG difference in our OWN children's education, but also for someone else's children, the ones who's parents just sit back and "bitch" about the "system" too, the one's who's parents are too busy working them LONG hard earned hours of money making while sending their kids to after-school programs & care, never seeing their children till way after 6:00pm, only to put them in bed as soon as their kids get home from an hour or longer bus ride, or the parents who are into "recreational" substances...The list goes on...

 

It's hard to please everybody, so from where we educators sit, our main goal is our students, and we do the best we can to help educate & raise them together with the parents, teachers, and the community...

[Flori_DAMAN 26]

*applauds cyerwife* The vast majority of teachers are very dedicated, overworked and underpaid. Some however do not seem to take there responsibility very seriously.

 

One in particular simply comes into the classroom and hands out assignments and reads a book during his class time. His tenure means that there isn't a dang thing you can do about it though. Teachers are not performance based with there incentive programs and I believe there should be options for tax money to go to companies that could compete for the money to provide education and give parents more of a choice on how they spend there hard earned money. The kids run wild and he could not care less.

Tam is a stay at home mother, which is why I usually post on this board. I have a small biz and kill time in between appointments by playing with my computer. BTW, my practice involves the medical field and I understand the defensive nature that teachers have because practitioners in my field are heavily criticized and misunderstood also. I do not spend any time defending the group in general, however strive daily to provide meaningful service and improve peoples lives.

 

I only have one employee and she hears me furiously typing on this thing and I am sure she thinks I am continuously solving all the corporate problems but if she only knew...lol.

 

I guess I am one of those parents that does not get home until after 6pm, and am pretty well mentally drained by then, but still manage to get my time in especially on the weekends with the kids. Nightly now, though getting there driving permit instruction time in has been my general evening activity.

 

When I get home Tam and I occasionally get on the lap top and chat. She broke down and bought her own computer so she may be contributing to this board one of these days.

 

By the way her views are sometimes diametrically opposed to mine on the education thing. After reading some posts in here she is gathering up steam to really go into the school system and try to change at least a few things. When she gets on roll she can and will bring anyone to there knees...in more ways than one...hehe.

 

Well we are actually getting out of the house Saturday night and going to our local club for the first time in about a year. Kind of looking forward to it. It was actually Tam's idea this time so that excites me even more...have a great day all.

[CanadianCouple 18]

Originally posted by CyberMWCouple:

, the one's who's parents are too busy working them LONG hard earned hours of money making while sending their kids to after-school programs & care, never seeing their children till way after 6:00pm,

 

True, but keep something in mind. What took one salary to attain a generation ago now takes two. Not every dual-career family is after the quarter million dollar home, complete with pool and jacuzzi. Many of us are just striving to pay a modest mortgage, eat three squares a day, and pray the 10 year old jalopy in the yard doesn't calf.

 

While I was growing up, there was a dozen or so of us who hung out together. Among us, there was only one of us who had his mom working, and that was the result of a divorce (another relative oddity for that period). Since then, the cost of living has soared far ahead of the average paycheck, and we're all like rats in a maze trying to keep our heads above water. That's why I get such a kick out of politicians claiming we're enjoying the most prosperous lifestyle in our history.

 

Sure, we only have to work twice the hours to make ends meet.

 

Dan

 

 

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

Originally posted by CanadianCouple:

True, but keep something in mind. What took one salary to attain a generation ago now takes two. Not every dual-career family is after the quarter million dollar home, complete with pool and jacuzzi. Many of us are just striving to pay a modest mortgage, eat three squares a day, and pray the 10 year old jalopy in the yard doesn't calf.

 

While I was growing up, there was a dozen or so of us who hung out together. Among us, there was only one of us who had his mom working, and that was the result of a divorce (another relative oddity for that period). Since then, the cost of living has soared far ahead of the average paycheck, and we're all like rats in a maze trying to keep our heads above water. That's why I get such a kick out of politicians claiming we're enjoying the most prosperous lifestyle in our history.

 

Sure, we only have to work twice the hours to make ends meet.

 

Dan

 

You honestly think that I'm ignorant of this life fact here?!

 

I was raise not by my parents, but by a single-grandparent, who had to quit her job to take care of all 4 of us! And our summer jobs that we had while back in high school, helped pay for our living where needed, God knows every penny counts...

 

I for one, was a single-parent (before marrying hubby now about 4 years ago), with 2 children still in elementary school, dividing myself up in more ways than one...With being a parent volunteer in their classrooms and office, and being the President of the PTA, while working in the education system, PLUS coaching on their Pop Warner Football AND Cheerleading team, then doing the domestic stuff at the homefront...

 

No matter how many "loop holes" you seem to find, sorry to say, but it doesn't pertain to us...We're not your ordinary citizens, that is out to make your life miserable, but to help others where we best know how!

 

Believe me when I say, we've around the blocks a few times and back where LIFE is concerned...If we show ignorance in certain areas, then I guess I'm not BOLD enough in "spelling it out" right! *LOL*

[CanadianCouple 18]

"Loop holes??"

 

Too often people are pidgeon-holed into stereotypes, and that includes families where both parents work. As I stated in an earlier post, my wife worked as a daycare teacher for four years, and she's learned a thing or two along the way as you have. While providing her with a living, it's also given her an insight into what effects warehousing kids causes, both for the kids and the parents.

 

 

My point in my last post was to illustrate how things have changed in the last generation, and not for the better. You seem to have taken some sort of personal offense to it, for reasons that are beyond me. I'm sorry if you had it rough as a kid, but I interpreted your remark on parents working long hours and not seeing their children as a cloaked criticism of their choice, when in many instances it's simply a matter of survival. True, there are those moms who just couldn't face life without the power lunches and boardroom ballbreaking, but again these aren't typical of working mothers, and that's the only point I was trying to make. No one's trying to imply you're ignorant of the facts of life. Could it be you have some sort of axe to grind?

 

We know all too well ourselves about penny pinching. Having had to change jobs due to a downturn in the shipbuilding industry, I'm currently earning 1/3 of what I used to, working 20 hours a week more for it, all the while trying to maintain a 100K mortgage.

 

Sorry, but I'm a person who's opinionated on certain things, and I can't change that any more than I could change my eye color.

 

Dan

[Guest CyberMWCouple]

Dan,

 

You're the one that was taking things on the "personal" side, and I see NOTHING wrong with that. Same as "I" have the right to answer questions on a personal level from time to time, we all do. Personal experiences, thoughts, feelings, etc...Isn't this what it's all about here? Sharing, and hopefully helping others who have difficulty in similar situations of their lives? I hold nothing personal back, but only give the truth. Are you asking me for lies and deceit? I think not. Truth is hard for some to comprehend and it becomes a problem for them. It's a learning process.

 

And I acknowledge the fact, that you & Janette are also skilled in these areas of life, and that's cool! We all do our part in raising our own children to the BEST we all know how! We ALL do our BEST in supporting our families too! I just don't like doing my best in bitching about it, and rather DO something about it instead.

 

Maybe because, I'm such an advocate for our younger generation, that others don't understand, or better yet, they've FORGOTTEN where they came from, who they once where, and how they got to where they're at, that they rather beat on their chest about it, and not show compassion to lend a helping hand, to guide them where they need to go...

 

If you don't like the answers you receive, then why ask "those" questions in the first place? WE ALL have our personal problems, and life skills, and know how, etc...Why don't you just come out and SAY what answers you're looking for? That way, the frustration and guessing game is tossed aside and we can begin the "healing" process.

 

I guess from now on, I'll just not voice my opinion while your ranting and raving. If it must save us from negativity and/or arguing, then so be it. THAT'LL be a miracle for me though, and I won't hold my breath either! *LOL*

 

Personally (here I go again with the "personal" side of me *lol*), I'd rather talk about much more positive things than politics, more rather like SEX!

[CanadianCouple 18]

CyberWife --

 

If you choose not to comment on my opinions, remember that's your choice, not mine. Anyone here is welcomed and in fact encouraged to converse with me. I didn't take any of your remarks personally, but I did detect anger on your part, and that's what I commented on.

 

Regarding young people, it's a wonderful thing to take their best interests to heart, but sometimes that concern is implemented in such a way as to exacerbate existing problems, such as "enabling" them to continue the same destructive behaviors, and that was my point to you and others in here. Often the truth hurts, but young people need guidance, and sometimes that involves telling them things they don't want to hear.

 

Anyway, no hard feelings on my part. Now wish us luck, for in a few hours we're meeting a new couple. They're inexperienced but interested, and in addition another couple we met two weeks ago have told us they're interested pursuing things as well. After a drought of several months, the skies may finally be opening up again.

 

Dan

[LIZA 20]

The age of consent ranges from 14-18 (for girls, lower usually for boys) in the U.S

 

Each state is different...a few are 16, the majority 17 or 18.

 

I doubt very much a 19 year old would be prosecuted for sex with a 17 year old, but if this guy is pushing 30 it may be a different story....

 

But then again, that first post sounds so "Penthouse Forum" somehow I get the idea this potential 3some is really in some guys mind