Weird attitudes about sex and homophobia in swinging

[robertodabull 7]

As I mentioned in other posts, I consider myself, for practical purposes, bisexual. 

My journey and circumstances have led me to enjoy sexual acts with men in the context of cuckold relationships and me dating couples on the submissive sexual spectrum as a sexually dominant male. 
 

The power dynamics don’t matter at all (dom, sub, switch), I just mention it for context because in my non LS world, no one would ever even think I am anything but a traditional heterosexual Latino middle aged man with adult kids and a 15 year medical career.

 

But that’s the fun of it isn’t it? The edgy, mystery of it once you are in a safe space with other “like minded” people.  But let me be clear, one of the hardest lessons I learned being a single male swinger is that those “like minded people” that podcasts and forums tell you are so open minded, caring, kind, and inclusive are some of the most brutally shallow, ignorant, homophobic, straight up mean demons you would ever encounter (with obvious very pleasant exceptions of course).

 

I can write a book on these horror stories (and I will), but tonight I find myself pondering on why the weird attitudes about sex in this setting? 
Like, why is it that when I’m dating a couple in the initial stages do I have to pretend this is a typical date? Or otherwise I’m a sex crazed pervert? Why do we have to play such a stupid, over dramatic courtship game in a lifestyle in which, all parties are fully aware, revolves around sex?

 

I can maybe understand that in a polyamory setting, if a couple is looking for a steady third. But in swinging? After we exchanged pictures and stories on explicit sexual acts you want me to perform on you and your wife?  Are the suit and tie, the fancy dinner really necessary? Or is this just part of the kink? You want to be chased as a couple? Seduced? I guess it would make sense if it wasn’t so odd and impractical (or never even discussed).

 

I have been rejected in the past many times. Most of those times because of my ethnicity or the way I look. But for a couple who was just gang banged and cummed on In the Virgin Islands by a whole village of strange men just a few weeks ago, you sure as fuck are picky on the aspect of my tie and choice of cologne.

 

And the homophobia! 
Bisexual men are seen as disease ridden sacs of shit in most clubs and events. Even by other men who have enjoyed my genitalia in the past!
“I wanna suck your cock but I’m not a fag ok!!! Don’t ever tell anyone or I’ll blast you!!!”

B R U H!!!! Calm the fuck down! We are all here to enjoy sex, in whatever shape or form you like, no one is labeling you, or me or your wife in any way! 
 

I know repressed homosexual desires can be distressing. But I’m a big advocate of therapy prior to entering the lifestyle (I have mine on speed dial). 
 

Either way, end of rant.

 

Ban me if you want, I just say things how they are. 

[couplers 4,180]

When it comes to sex, people are irrational, even towards their own kinks.  That's especially true with male homo/bi sexuality.  (Women have it so much easier in that regard.)

 

Humans just have a lot of baggage around simple acts.  That's just the way it is. 

[let's do it again 383]

8 hours ago, robertodabull said:

As I mentioned in other posts, I consider myself, for practical purposes, bisexual. 

My journey and circumstances have led me to enjoy sexual acts with men in the context of cuckold relationships and me dating couples on the submissive sexual spectrum as a sexually dominant male. 
 

The power dynamics don’t matter at all (dom, sub, switch), I just mention it for context because in my non LS world, no one would ever even think I am anything but a traditional heterosexual Latino middle aged man with adult kids and a 15 year medical career.

 

But that’s the fun of it isn’t it? The edgy, mystery of it once you are in a safe space with other “like minded” people.  But let me be clear, one of the hardest lessons I learned being a single male swinger is that those “like minded people” that podcasts and forums tell you are so open minded, caring, kind, and inclusive are some of the most brutally shallow, ignorant, homophobic, straight up mean demons you would ever encounter (with obvious very pleasant exceptions of course).

 

I can write a book on these horror stories (and I will), but tonight I find myself pondering on why the weird attitudes about sex in this setting? 
Like, why is it that when I’m dating a couple in the initial stages do I have to pretend this is a typical date? Or otherwise I’m a sex crazed pervert? Why do we have to play such a stupid, over dramatic courtship game in a lifestyle in which, all parties are fully aware, revolves around sex?

 

I can maybe understand that in a polyamory setting, if a couple is looking for a steady third. But in swinging? After we exchanged pictures and stories on explicit sexual acts you want me to perform on you and your wife?  Are the suit and tie, the fancy dinner really necessary? Or is this just part of the kink? You want to be chased as a couple? Seduced? I guess it would make sense if it wasn’t so odd and impractical (or never even discussed).

 

I have been rejected in the past many times. Most of those times because of my ethnicity or the way I look. But for a couple who was just gang banged and cummed on In the Virgin Islands by a whole village of strange men just a few weeks ago, you sure as fuck are picky on the aspect of my tie and choice of cologne.

 

And the homophobia! 
Bisexual men are seen as disease ridden sacs of shit in most clubs and events. Even by other men who have enjoyed my genitalia in the past!
“I wanna suck your cock but I’m not a fag ok!!! Don’t ever tell anyone or I’ll blast you!!!”

B R U H!!!! Calm the fuck down! We are all here to enjoy sex, in whatever shape or form you like, no one is labeling you, or me or your wife in any way! 
 

I know repressed homosexual desires can be distressing. But I’m a big advocate of therapy prior to entering the lifestyle (I have mine on speed dial). 
 

Either way, end of rant.

 

Ban me if you want, I just say things how they are. 

I think it's a lot bigger problem than just in the swinging community. I live in the rural midwest, I can't imagine all the shit people catch when they interracial date or being bi or homosexuals. I think it's everywhere, some people hide it, some don't!

[hunterdonNJcpl 1,136]

8 hours ago, robertodabull said:

...why is it that when I’m dating a couple in the initial stages do I have to pretend this is a typical date? Or otherwise I’m a sex crazed pervert? Why do we have to play such a stupid, over dramatic courtship game in a lifestyle in which, all parties are fully aware, revolves around sex?

 

...After we exchanged pictures and stories on explicit sexual acts you want me to perform on you and your wife?  Are the suit and tie, the fancy dinner really necessary?

When we got into the hotwifing aspect of this, it was actually the dating aspect that initially appealled to my wife. Men are more inclined toward random, anonymous sex but, in my personal experience, ladies like to wine and dine, get to know you, and and be treated like a lady first.

 

For us a tie is definitely not a requirement but if you show up looking shabby then no dice.

 

Dress to impress.

[AdamGunn2 205]

9 hours ago, robertodabull said:

But that’s the fun of it isn’t it? The edgy, mystery of it once you are in a safe space with other “like minded” people.  But let me be clear, one of the hardest lessons I learned being a single male swinger is that those “like minded people” that podcasts and forums tell you are so open minded, caring, kind, and inclusive are some of the most brutally shallow, ignorant, homophobic, straight up mean demons you would ever encounter (with obvious very pleasant exceptions of course).

 

 

What you are referring to is an oh-so-typical attitude among most people, the one that says, "I believe this, and if you don't believe what I believe then you're wrong and I'm right."  This affects not only sexual styles, but almost all of the rest of our lives - from marriage customs to parenting to politics and then worst of all (in my opinion) religion. And all the rest. Pick a subject, and you'll find someone who is violently against what you believe, and may be willing to argue and perhaps physically fight you over it.

 

Take an example from the late Middle Ages and Renaissance. All over Europe and Colonial America, Christians banished their neighbors or actually executed them for simply  having the opinion that perhaps the scriptures should be interpreted slightly differently. (This is why I refer to myself as a 'Christian who doesn't believe in Christianity.')

 

The solution? I wish I had one. When I find myself in the presence of someone who believes vehemently in one opinion or another that I don't share, I simply don't respond - or if I must, I walk the other way.  Yes, I've been kicked out of social groups I was a member of and lost friends because of this.  

 

Unfortunately, in the United States today we are in a situation where many people aren't tolerant of other people, and feel it is their right to confront them.  It's distressing. I have faith that someday we'll get past this and manage to do better as a society - but I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, which seems to have an end date in the next decade or so.

 

So, to you, OP, I say, 'Sigh . . . I understand your angst, and wish it wasn't that way.  As much as you can, don't let the turkeys get you down.'

 

Peace!

[robertodabull 7]

1 hour ago, hunterdonNJcpl said:

When we got into the hotwifing aspect of this, it was actually the dating aspect that initially appealled to my wife. Men are more inclined toward random, anonymous sex but, in my personal experience, ladies like to wine and dine, get to know you, and and be treated like a lady first.

 

For us a tie is definitely not a requirement but if you show up looking shabby then no dice.

 

Dress to impress.

Oh, I’ll play the game. I just hate the boring, stereotypical simulation. Women already made their decision most of the time just by looks. So why pretend or waste people’s time? Unless, again, it’s part of the kink.

 

I just think it’s incredibly boring.  There are ways to get to know each other on a more relaxed casual setting.
 

Scandinavians are very different. Men or women. They are down to FUCK! I really need to make another trip to Oslo. 

[AdamGunn2 205]

2 hours ago, robertodabull said:

Women already made their decision most of the time just by looks

 

I think you're wrong there. My wife, and a number of other women I've talked to, have been hot to go with a guy, then decided not to when he showed himself to be arrogant or shifty. And my wife let herself be talked into a good time with a guy who engaged her mind.

 

 

[lcmim 1,033]

Two thoughts occurred to me from your post.

First, it has been my experience that one is, more often than not, going to find what they expect to find.

 

Second is that while you may truly be the best thing since sliced bread, that is going to get you no where unless others see it. That is the reason for the "date"

 

For most of us being with people of like mind does not insure having sex. We expect to be able to relate to playmates at  something more than a gonadal level.

[hunterdonNJcpl 1,136]

2 hours ago, robertodabull said:

Women already made their decision most of the time just by looks. So why pretend or waste people’s time? Unless, again, it’s part of the kink.

If you're on an initial meet up then she hasn't made up her mind yet and her decision whether or not to go to the next level depends on your dating chemistry.

 

If you're beyond that point and now you're meeting for the 2nd or 3rd time etc, and she still wants to date first then dating is part of her foreplay. Nothing wrong with that.

[robertodabull 7]

1 hour ago, AdamGunn2 said:

 

I think you're wrong there. My wife, and a number of other women I've talked to, have been hot to go with a guy, then decided not to when he showed himself to be arrogant or shifty. And my wife let herself be talked into a good time with a guy who engaged her mind.

 

 

Several years and hundreds of interactions later, I disagree. The halo effect is stronger and more prevalent than people like to admit.   For women, it is ALL looks, then they will build attributes subconsciously on that. 
Can arrogance and a shitty personality ruin it? Sure, but not very often.

[robertodabull 7]

1 hour ago, hunterdonNJcpl said:

If you're on an initial meet up then she hasn't made up her mind yet and her decision whether or not to go to the next level depends on your dating chemistry.

 

If you're beyond that point and now you're meeting for the 2nd or 3rd time etc, and she still wants to date first then dating is part of her foreplay. Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with that. If you have time to waste. 
A couple I stopped messaging after 2 boring pretentious dates asked me why I stopped caring if she was ready to fuck?? Really?? 

 

When I told them it was related to my profession and my endless responsibilities to a hospital, then I was labeled as “arrogant”, when I never even mentioned my credentials and job in the first place (I don’t do it because it’s a cheap shot and it’s always taken the wrong way of course). 
 

She wasn’t “ready to fuck”, they were empty nesters with a lot of time and money and wanted to waste my fucking time for their entertainment. I had to block them for pestering me even in social media. 
 

If you’re Jo Schmo with a lot of time to invest on a couple. Fine, why not? Especially if there is chemistry.

 

 

 

[hunterdonNJcpl 1,136]

1 hour ago, robertodabull said:

A couple I stopped messaging after 2 boring pretentious dates asked me why I stopped caring if she was ready to fuck?? Really?? 
 

She wasn’t “ready to fuck”, they were empty nesters with a lot of time and money and wanted to waste my fucking time for their entertainment. I had to block them for pestering me even in social media. 

Well shit they were just toying with you. Ain't nobody got time for that!

[oldswinger64 90]

Wow, you sound very angry, not just at swinging, but at females in general.  There are no guarantees in life, or in swinging.  You want a guarantee, then go to a hooker.  

 

After many years in and out of the lifestyle, I have learned that appearance is a small portion of what attracts women to men. There are so many other levels, and yes, a formal date can bring those out.  And a formal date can also show the woman that the person is not right.  

 

I would suggest you leave the swinging scene.  You do not have the right attitude.  There is more to an encounter than just cocks and pussies, but that is where your brain is stuck.

 

[robertodabull 7]

42 minutes ago, oldswinger64 said:

Wow, you sound very angry, not just at swinging, but at females in general.  There are no guarantees in life, or in swinging.  You want a guarantee, then go to a hooker.  

 

After many years in and out of the lifestyle, I have learned that appearance is a small portion of what attracts women to men. There are so many other levels, and yes, a formal date can bring those out.  And a formal date can also show the woman that the person is not right.  

 

I would suggest you leave the swinging scene.  You do not have the right attitude.  There is more to an encounter than just cocks and pussies, but that is where your brain is stuck.

 

I would say you are just too old and delusional. Today, appearance is everything to women. Then, they will build on that. 

 

but then I remember more than half the profiles here are men, who

 fantasize about swinging but never actually have. I think that’s you. Because anyone who has actually been in the lifestyle (especially in the last few years) would agree at least partially with my experience.

 

Leave? Don’t think so, there is still that 0.1 % of couples that actually live the LS like it should be, and I’ve gotten lucky in the past.

[enhancer 1,552]

First of all there is no way the lifestyle should actually be lived!  There is no rule book and nobody has to do anything they do not want to with anyone.  
 

As far as appearance being the only thing that matters to a woman for her to want to have sex with a man you could not be anymore wrong.  It might be an important thing to start there being interest and why wouldn’t it be?  If you have not figured out by now that it takes more then looks to make them want to give themselves to someone I don’t know what to tell you other then you do not know women very well. 
 

You want sex without any effort on your part there are plenty of people you can pay to have sex with.  
 

So many men try to enter this lifestyle thinking it is going to be an easy way to get sex without having to work for it!  Swinging women are going to be just as or maybe even more choosy about who they have sex with, because they can be.  The pussy has the power in this lifestyle like it or not.

[couplers 4,180]

On 5/11/2024 at 11:06 PM, robertodabull said:

being a single male

I am a married woman, and it is understandable to me that being a single man would be difficult in the lifestyle.  Perhaps concentrating on finding a like-minded woman to join you on this adventure may be more rewarding. 

[robertodabull 7]

On 5/15/2024 at 1:53 PM, enhancer said:

First of all there is no way the lifestyle should actually be lived!  There is no rule book and nobody has to do anything they do not want to with anyone.  
 

As far as appearance being the only thing that matters to a woman for her to want to have sex with a man you could not be anymore wrong.  It might be an important thing to start there being interest and why wouldn’t it be?  If you have not figured out by now that it takes more then looks to make them want to give themselves to someone I don’t know what to tell you other then you do not know women very well. 
 

You want sex without any effort on your part there are plenty of people you can pay to have sex with.  
 

So many men try to enter this lifestyle thinking it is going to be an easy way to get sex without having to work for it!  Swinging women are going to be just as or maybe even more choosy about who they have sex with, because they can be.  The pussy has the power in this lifestyle like it or not.

I’ve come full circle on this after many years. 
I was delusional in the sense that me being a gentleman, a pillar of my community, a professional who donated his time and resources to save lives in the US and in other countries, a caring, trauma informed, consent prioritizing, well groomed, clean, STD free, ultra educated single male should count towards my success in the LS.  It never did and it never will, because women’s only and utmost priority is looks.  But it is something so shameful to admit, it will never be said outloud (except of course when I get ad responses from women and couples calling me a spic, or a monster, or telling me I should go kill myself because I don’t have six pack abs). 
 

Effort? You have no idea the effort and time I have put in on this. Years of therapy and preparing, taking care of my body and mind. All to discover the majority of people I wanted to fuck were absolute ghouls.

[robertodabull 7]

2 hours ago, couplers said:

I am a married woman, and it is understandable to me that being a single man would be difficult in the lifestyle.  Perhaps concentrating on finding a like-minded woman to join you on this adventure may be more rewarding. 

The worst part is that it doesn’t have to be this way.  But it is quite brutal.

 

For men who do not look conventionally attractive, the tax we have to pay for sex includes undisputed monogamy. A tax I am not willing to pay.

[hunterdonNJcpl 1,136]

3 hours ago, robertodabull said:

I was delusional in the sense that me being a gentleman, a pillar of my community, a professional who donated his time and resources to save lives in the US and in other countries, a caring, trauma informed, consent prioritizing, well groomed, clean, STD free, ultra educated single male should count towards my success in the LS.  It never did and it never will, because women’s only and utmost priority is looks. 

You would no-doubt make a fine husband. But keep in mind that LS couples iso single guys are just that: couples.  As such, their focus is on men to fuck, and not much more. and the Mrs. of the couple has a couple pics on an online profile to help her determine whether or not you look like the kind of guy she likes to fuck.

 

Sorry if ppl have been racist and mean. That is uncalled for. Everyone deserves a basic minimum of respect even if they don't quite match a couple's physical ideal.  We have noticed preferences, but never personally seen outright bigotry in the context of the LS although we certainly believe it's out there.

[Billygoat 417]

There are plenty of people, couples, FWB pairs, single/solo and just people in general of all ages, shapes and attitudes in the Lifestyle.  Like grains of sand on a beach.  Each with their own thoughts, desires, expectations and kinks.  The only real list of rules that apply…..no means no and is expressed a number of ways.  You do not assume or make assumptions.  What goes on in the Lifestyle stays in the lifestyle.  No violence, abuse, coercion.  In the end it is up to each participant to define their desires, level of participation, limits and exceptions.  There is no “owed” or requirement to do or participate at any level.  
 

Sadly, there are always a few who step into the LS with the wrong expectations and an attitude that because he/she was there or because they consented to an activity that they are now on the menu for everyone/anyone.  Participation does not activate open consent to anyone.

 

we have over 25 years in the LS/ENM/Nudist.  We organized and hosted swinger house parties, private play groups, events social as well as intimate and organized fantasy realization 90% for women to act out their inner most fantasies.  House parties, hotel events, weekend LS trips you name it.  The only thing we never experienced was a commercially run LS club or cruise. 
 

Yes, very few experiences with gay males/couples.  Many experiences with bi and lesbian couples at swing events.  Some only played with other women others enjoy playing both sides…..bi lesbians enjoying the occasional penis.  Bi males yes.  Mostly in private rooms at a house party.  Very rarely in an open room/group/orgy.  We never saw any negative attitudes portrayed against them.  We even had several trans over the years and two gender transition male to female.

 

I guess it all depends on where you go and the type of party/club you attend.

 

 

[couplers 4,180]

23 hours ago, robertodabull said:

it is quite brutal.

You are correct, human relationships, whether they be fleeting sexual encounters, FWB situations, or marriages are difficult to successfully arrange and fraught with disappointment along the way.  The tales of woe that I hear from my female friends are many in whatever they are trying to achieve are plentiful.  There's even a song about it - "The History of Wrong Guys" from the play Kinky Boots.

 

That's why this forum is here, to discuss the narrow path to nirvana in everything from a committed marriage to casual sex and everything in between.  It's not a McDonald's drive-thru.