Swinging versus Religion

During the past couple of weeks she has been having some problems with swinging and religious beliefs. We are not regular church goes. As a matter of fact we have not been in a church for regular services in well over a year. But her feelings are those conflicts she feels regarding the bible. Any others come across this situation and how did you deal with it?

This is actually a pretty common issue. Regardless of whether or not we are active in church now, the beliefs that were ingrained us as children still often have a way of cropping up into our lives and causing us to feel guilty about things that we do or want to do.

I would highly suggest the two of you check out the Liberated Christians website at http://www.libchrist.com

A lot of people have trouble puting religion into context, or understanding just what the Bible has to say about sex. Remember that it was not God or Jesus who said sex was naughty or bad...it was Emperor Constantine and those who came after him 500 years after the death of Jesus. Adultry, as written in the ancient texts refered not to a sexual act, but rather to the crime of stealing another man's property(his wife). God never punished or even criticized Solomon or David for keeping several hundred wives and comcubines. Love is love, and if you wish to share your bed with friends in a loving way that will enhance a man and woman's joy together, I seriously doubt whether God would mind. After all, he created us with a strong sexual nature and if we act out our sexual fantasies together in an expression of love, then I personally don't think that such behavior runs contrary to the teachings of Jesus, or the Bible. So it then becomes a matter of reason. Do you want to include others to help enhance the relationship you have with the one you love? Or are you using it as just a means to tag some strange? Jesus' message to us was about love, respect, caring and sharing. In this context, I don't think that swinging is something that should condem you to lakes of fire for all eternity. Now lying, cheating, sneaking around behind your lover's back...that's another story entirely! Sportync

OK; Who here believes for a minute that I am a regular married church-going Christian who both attends weekly church services *and* occasionally plays in the bedroom with friends? Let's see a show of hands!

OK, I thought so; no one believes me.

Nevertheless, it's true. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, and I'm active in many parts of my parish, including acting as a former parish council member, Lector, and currently active in the Social Justice group. My kids are enrolled in the CCD classes ('religious education'), there, too.

Why do we 'swing'? The answer to that is different for each couple, so I won't go into that, here; it's not the question I'm answering.

Why do we *not* have a problem with swinging vis-a-vis 'religion'? Because we feel it's not "Adultery". It's not a matter of being 'unfaithful' to our spouse; it's not 'cheating'.

The commitment is to each other in this (or any other valid) marriage. The promise is to work together to build a life for us and our children. We have friendships, true, with other couples, and we can express those friendships through some very intimate means; but we're not building a life with them. We're not part of their families, nor are they part of ours.

It's a matter of focus and commitment.

Of course, this is just a gloss of our thoughts and reasons. Entire books could be - and probably have been - written about this.

We simply don't see a contradiction between playtime and faith.

- J, of the SJBluebirds

I'm glad this subject came up. My wife is deeply religious, and I've been thinking how I can justify sharing passion with others. Been think that it would'nt be adultry if we are together and enjoying. To me sharing wife (ieMFM) is a way to totally please her, which is I want to do. So would be wanting to totally sexually p-lease and give her all the love I possible can be sinning, I hope not. I want this for showing my love for her, not just sex. Hopefully we come into agreement

There was a group called "Liberated Christians" who dealt with all aspects of swining and polyamory from a christian viewpoint. The group was out of pheonix and has a website up I do believe.

I checked out the Liberated Christians a few years ago. They're a little too ... how do I say this without offending them? ... a little too 'mainstream protestant'.

We Catholics like to think we're the only 'real' Christians out there

-J, of the SJBluebirds

I think this is a great thread. I too am a Roman Catholic, have participated in all of the Sacraments, and attended Catechism when I was a boy. Although I don't go to Church very much these days, I miss it and would be more motivated to go except that the Church takes a pretty dim view of those of us who are divorced. Okay, that's another subject.

Basically, I think what you all have been saying encapsulates what I feel toward my wife, which is that I love her more than my own life and would do anything (within reason) to please her. Since my wife wants to swing, and because we participate with full communication and acceptance, there is no dishonesty nor is there any "coveting" of another's spouse. I'm pretty sure that the biblical connotation of the word "covet" should be interpreted in the context of ultimately "stealing" another's spouse for oneself, which isn't happening since all parties are aware of the intentions of the participants.

Very good responses from others on this important topic that results in guilt and confusion by many Christian swingers.

As others have said, there is no biblical conflict - The anti-sex traditions have no biblical basis. We have scads of articles, bibliography "The Bible, Christianity & Sexual Issues" section at

http://www.libchrist.com/bible/contents.html

We receive zillions of supportive E-mails from many pastors and theologians that are so thrilled someone is dealing honestly with the biblical issues not just Church traditions.

I once was up against a very conservative minister on a Portland Radio talk show. He couldn't even get to libchrist.com since it is blocked by some Christian software. After long debate he had to admit the issue is following what the bible said and meant in the culture in which it was written, vs. Church tradition. Tradition teaches the anti sex message, not the bible.

No offense intended but for Catholics its simply that much of their traditions in many areas, not just sexual are man made, often to control people, and have no biblical basis. We show how some of these Catholic anti sex traditions developed. For example, priests could have many wives and mistresses until it cost the Church too much money and celibacy was introduced - not for any biblical reason but to protect the Church from all the children and wives requiring financial support.

At libchrist.com we deal with biblical issues for sincere Christians not man made rules and traditions. For those that are non-Christians, they often also suffer from the same guilt or morality issues based upon the attitudes of our culture which is predominately Judeo-Christian based.

Originally posted by JamesTKirk

I'm pretty sure that the biblical connotation of the word "covet" should be interpreted in the context of ultimately "stealing" another's spouse for oneself, which isn't happening since all parties are aware of the intentions of the participants.

Exactly...

In the 10th commandment, Exodus 20:17 it says:

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors house, thou shalt not covet the neighbors wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass , nor anything that is thy neighbors."

BTW, ass is an animal...not .... what your thinking of....

In the 10th commandment a woman who is a wife is listed among other items of ownership. The wife seems to be on the same level of importance as his ox and ass.

The word "covet" is to desire to own. In biblical times clearly the man owned his wives just as a he owned his sons and daughters.

It may also be important to realize there was no effective birth control and knowing only a husband sired the children was very important. A woman's husband owned the fertility rights and the resulting children of his wives and concubines (breeders). Children were very important both financially - boys to work and girls to sell for bride price - as well as because of the strong family relationships that were so important.

This was quite a topic for me when I first really started thinking about swinging. My answers were similar to much of the topics discussed in this thread. For me it came down to....I just didn't feel it was cheating, so for me meant it was not wrong in my heart. I know my husband loves me very much and this was to enhance that relationship not destroy it.

We continue to go to church regularly and kids are involved in the youth groups. Not sure what I will do if any of the kids or "church" friends find out but will deal with that then. I feel we have grown closer together in this last months. So how can it be against the Bible, if our relationship is growing stronger?

Just my thoughts,

Rhonda

Very good thread going here.. but most of you all talk about couples.. just curious does all this apply to all the singles out there? hmmm....

just a thought.. and now my brain is going to work

As a Heathen I guess I'm just lucky that free sexual expression is a part of my religion.

Jamie

Originally posted by curious24

Very good thread going here.. but most of you all talk about couples.. just curious does all this apply to all the singles out there? hmmm

I am a bit confused by question. This is a swingers board. By traditional definition this means couples. It use to be called "wife swapping". Some singles are allowed to participate but only in limited ways since singles really aren't swingers again by definition.

As it relates to the religious issues, in biblical times almost everyone was married based on deal with a girls father by age 14, so there weren't many singles issues. In fact marriages were often arranged long before the legal age of 12.5/13.5 for marriage and were betrothed before that.

But there really are no biblical restrictions for singles. "fornication" is a total lie in translation of the Greek "porneia"

Dave in Phoenix

Liberated Christians

http://www.libchrist.com

Swinger as defined by http://www.dictionary.com

swing·er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (swngr)

n.

One that swings: a good swinger of baseball bats.

Slang.

• A person who actively seeks excitement and moves with the latest trends.
  
• A person who engages freely in promiscuous sex.
  
• A member of a couple, especially a married couple, who exchanges sexual partners.

"A person who engages freely in promiscuous sex"

I would say that a single person by definition can be a swinger.

I guess my question is are there any religious teachings out there about single males or females participating in sexual acts with couples, other singles, etc (i.e. premarital sex or sex with a married couple). Or is it all just about couples since you say "By traditional definition this means couples."? Are their any rules defined by religious for singles out there? or are we supposed to sit back and watch all the couples?

hmmmm....

curious24

Don't want to change this into a debate about swinging, but no swing convention I have ever heard of allows singles, some clubs do on special nights to make lots of money and those nights a lot of couples avoid etc. Swinging as used in Swing Clubs, traditionally in the U.S. is couples only with the exception of allowing at times singles to particiapte on a limited basis.

Part of this is due to huge gender imbalance. Very few single women seek to participate vs zillions and zillions of single male wanabees.

At Liberated Christians, old Phoenix couples group, before our ads made it clear we were only for couples out of about 2500 people contacting us we got about 200 single men contacting us for information for every 20 couples to perhaps 1-2 single women. A couple of these women were dominatrix's looking for slaves! Only one single women regularly participated in our Fellowship Group (out of 46 people who attended last meeting) and she helps as a leader. The rest are all couples and they clearly do not want single men to offset the gender balance and who may have a different agenda than long-term loving friendships, couple to couple. Many women are bisexual so extra women not a problem at many clubs and because they are so rare. Bi men are unfairly discriminated again..yes I agree.

Also, the vast majority of couples only want to relate to other couples, and want to develop couple to couple friendships that for many, is much more than just sex. This is especially true for new couples since sharing only with other couples creates less jealousy issues.

But to the religious question again.

In Biblical times a man owned his wives and concubines. If he grants permission for them to swing there would be no problem. Today we don't own our wives and women have the same sexual freedoms men have always had. The biblical man owning their women was cultural not a "commandment of God"... as some men still seem to want to think

Like the Rabbi says to the husband at a swing club, "I don't want to own your wife, just borrow and play with her. Then I will return to you." That is the biblical issue

All this makes me glad I'm a atheist.

Been one since I was 8 years old, while in Church one early morning by myself. Kids think the darndest things.

Originally posted by davephx

Today we don't own our wives and women have the same sexual freedoms men have always had.

Hi,

In USA of course this is probably true but not so sure for all immigrants.... same remark for Europe. Some cultures are more open about the equality of rights between males and females but it's only a part of the world.

And what about jealousy if it's not a kind of property (she is MY wife so You even can't look at her...).

Besides in Afghanistan supposed to be liberated since US troops striked the Talibans nothing have changed for women. If a man want to repudiate is wife he is locking her with a man who is raping her and then he is accusing her of adultery... nothing is done against the rapist but the female is put to jail or even worse stoned to death according to the religious and cultural beliefs of the people there.

There is still quite a lot to do on Earth to offer the same freedom to the females than the males already have... and religions are not always a good help for this fight for equals rights. In "my" religion, the Roman Catholic Church, the Pope still desagrees that a woman can become a priest or that priests can be married to women... the result is some "pedophilia scandals" which are revelated from time to time... This is why nowadays I have kept myself at distance with the Church.

JC

I once knew a college professor who was fond of saying, "If the Catholic church and Islam had never come to be, Man would have landed on the moon in the year 1321."

He could put forth a compelling argument based on historical events to support his point.

Mr. Alura

Originally posted by Alura

I once knew a college professor who was fond of saying, "If the Catholic church and Islam had never come to be, Man would have landed on the moon in the year 1321."

 

He could put forth a compelling argument based on historical events to support his point.

 

Mr. Alura

A nice sense of humour for this professor but in a way I agree even if I said previously I was baptised in the Roman Catholic Church.

In fact in 1321 Church was in fight against "heretics"... Pope Clement the fifth with the felony of the King of France were destroying the great Order of the Knight Templars. The last Great Master Jacques de Molay was burnt in march 1313 in Paris. There is still a memorial by the Seine.

The witches hunt was also the best great sport of the Inquisition at that time... Galileo was obliged to say he was wrong when he declared that the Earth was round and turning around the Sun... The Church prefered a flat Planet with the sun turning around. The earth was then at the Center of the Universe. And at the top of this world was the Church and the Pope who was the only real intercessor of GOD... very convenient for him I guess.

Fortunatly a part of the World opened their eyes on this and Church is now just a Spiritual Power which is her right place but no more else.

Now what about sex and Religion... It's fun to know that some Popes had given birth to babies not only with the help of the Holy Spirit but with the tool they had between their legs

A female known as "Jeanne la Papesse" became a Pope for a few period and this is why since this time they are "verifying that the Pope has balls to be allowed to play the game"

JC

This is interesting.

Of the limited number of responses in this thread, of the people who have professed a belief one way or the other, those that have named a religion they belong to are generic Christian, or specifically Catholic.

Does someone know how to start a poll along the lines of "If (and only if) you belong to an organized religion, which best describes it:" And then list a number of religions.

My hunch (and it's only a hunch/gut feeling at this point) that the majority of 'swingers' who claim to be Christian are specifically Catholic. In my own experience, I'd say from 70-80 percent of the couples we've played with have been, or were once, Catholic. I have my own suspicions *why* this may be, and it has nothing to do with repressive sexuality or abusive clergy. (Akin to the easier/more prevalent acceptance of sensuality within prayer than other Christian faiths... Dont' get me started on this.... )

Anyone want to develop (or know how) to post a poll like this?

-J of the SJBluebirds:)

Originally posted by Uneed_Love

The last Great Master Jacques de Molay was burnt in march 1313 in Paris. There is still a memorial by the Seine.

JC

Ups an Historic mistake... J de Molay agony occured in 1314 (instead 1313). Well this does not change something for the poor guy but if I say something the best I can do is telling something true. Sorry folks.

JC

Thanks to all of you for adding your insite to this question. We have discussed it at lengh and still have questions between us.

Your comments and knowledge have added to our priviate discussion and may help us reach some conclusions.

Uneed_love's comments about other world cultures today that do not have equal women's rights was very good.

In our Phoenix Couples group about 90% came at least in part because of our Christian support. But I'd say only about 20% were Catholic and the rest from other protestant denominations either currently or in the past.

In counseling many couples however, it does seem clear Catholics often have the hardest time overcoming guilt of their repressinve teachings.

Originally posted by davephx

In counseling many couples however, it does seem clear Catholics often have the hardest time overcoming guilt of their repressinve teachings.

Very true Dave. I must just say that I regret that such a group as Liberated Christians does not exist here in France. I have visited Your website and I have finally found exactly the group who is perfectly expressing my own feelings towards sex and Christianity. Thanks to the great work you do I assume many Christians can hopefully hang up with their guilty feelings. Thanks for doing this for all of us.

Jean-Claude

I echo the thoughts of all who have replied on this thread. My wife and I went a step further than most by telling our children what we were doing and why. We did this simply to protect them from hurt when they eventually found out. Yes, all my daughters attend church youth groups and church. What was their reaction you might be asking yourself right now? My 17yr old was confused but accepting. She seems to feel that it is an adult thing and since we love each other more than we did before (this is very obvious by the sounds coming out of our bedroom, at all hours these days ) she is very confident that we are doing the right thing for all concerned. The 13yr old is bored by the information and is just into "Lord of the rings" stuff entirely. It feels so good not hiding what we do from our kids. I fully understand that not everyone can or may want to do as we have done. We just want to encourage others that at least one couple has been successful in telling their children.

Originally posted by Bluebirds in San Jose

This is interesting.

 

Of the limited number of responses in this thread, of the people who have professed a belief one way or the other, those that have named a religion they belong to are generic Christian, or specifically Catholic.

 

-J of the SJBluebirds:)

Actually, I quite specically mentioned that I am Heathen, which is neither generic Christian nor Catholic I assure you.

For info, see

Jamie

Originally posted by Vjklander

For info, see

Jamie

I have had a quick glance at the website and did not knew that Vikings were wearing Baseballs caps and T-shirts

Sorry... just kidding.