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  1. #1
    Swinger lickin good... dragonblade's Avatar
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    Default Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    Ok, so maybe that's a wrong title, but I don't know how else to put it. :surrender

    Here's the deal. At work, a guy that sits near me is a Jehovah's Witness. In and of itself totally not a bad thing, I'm a firm believer in "to each their own". The conversation started with " Have you ever heard of the Roman Saturnalia?" I looked it up, realized it was the Roman feast for the god Saturn back in the day that happens to correspond with Christmas. I was basically like "whoopdedoo, I know already that the Christian holidays are based (timewise) on the pagan holidays, that all came about with Constantine. Besides I'm not your 'typical Christian' and hold some very different beliefs from the norm." We delved further into that conversation.

    I told him that I believed that Jesus' message was love and that to me cheating and adultery were the same thing, involving lies and deceit. That responsible non-monogamy with full knowledge and consent of BOTH spouses was not a bad thing, and if God wanted everyone to be only monogamous, why did Solomon have over 700 wives and concubines, and why did God say to David after the Bathsheba incident (paraphrasing) " If you wanted any other woman, all you had to do was ask." Not "you're married!! That's WRONG!! " etc etc.

    Well, he brought up Matthew 5:27, 28. That Jesus spoke against adultery and lust etc. I hadn't done much research and I know that a lot of you have. I am currently trying to do so, but he wants to talk tomorrow lol. I know that several people here have delved far into these things (further than myself anyway) and that Spoo (if I remember correctly) actually has degrees in Christian Theology. Or things along those lines.. so anyone that has delved into this (particularly these verses, but in general) please help me out! I don't want to "prove him wrong" per se, just be clear on my stance and that I believe that Jesus would be cool with this and have some back up. (If that makes sense )

    Oh and I know about libchrist.com, and I'm looking into stuff there, but that's only one site...

    Soooooooo any help out there for me?

    ~Blade~

    (PS sorry mod's if I put it in the wrong place, but I thought this is where it was supposed to be )
    It is with our passions, as it is with fire and water, they are good servants but bad masters.
    ~ Aesop (620 BC - 560 BC)

  2. #2
    Chimpin' Ain't Easy Spoomonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonblade
    I know that several people here have delved far into these things (further than myself anyway) and that Spoo (if I remember correctly) actually has degrees in Christian Theology.
    Just one actually - and I am sure that if my college knew, they'd disassociate themselves

    Being a liberal, agnostic, swinger friend of the gay and lesbian community - I have sort of lost my perspective. My answer now would be - "who cares?" I mean, really. If Jesus was the Son of the Old Testament God (and the two were in fact one), then everything that the Old Testament God did was done through and agreed with by Jesus...

    You can't really separate the two.

    But - as far as your answer goes - you already have it in your definition of adultery. Jesus said that the two greatest commandments - and the two on which the entire law hangs - is to love God with all your heart and mind and to love others as yourself. That's it.

    Not "be faithful, clean-mouthed, well-dressed, in church every Sunday, right about everything, a non-smoker, a listener to Kirk Franklin, chaste, a watcher of only "G" rated movies (except those made by Disney since they support queers), etc." The church has made too many damn rules...

    Jesus didn't.

    Sure - he took issue with a few things - mostly self-righteousness - but he never, ever said swinging was wrong. Yes - he was against lust and adultery - which in context was a form of thievery. He was not against love, happiness, laughter - and all the good things that life has to offer.

    Jesus was saying the Matthew 5, a portion of the Sermon on the Mount, that if a person looks at a woman to lust after her, he needs to pluck his eye out and throw if from him. He was pretty extreme with his prescriptions here - and if we want to take him literally, then there would be a lot of blind men walking around - your friend included.

    He also prescribed cutting out the tongue and cutting off hands...

    Strong language...

    But yet - his disciples were not self-mutilated...

    Nor has any mainstream religious group taken his teaching literally. Sure - literally enough to tie people up with guilt, but not nearly enough to start lopping off parts.

    Complete piety would be, quite literally, lame!

    Actually - if we take the Sermon on the mount and filter it through the "greatest commandments" we have some awesome advice for swinging couples! What sort of place would the lifestyle be if people respected one another? If men looked at women as art - as treasures - as friends; and women returned respect for respect.

    Friendships would be more common, jealousies would be far less, hurt feelings and bed notchers would be rare.

    Was he saying don't look at a woman as a sexual being? What sort of crazy, fucked up god makes men visual and then punishes them for looking? It is insane that anyone would think that this makes sense. No - Jesus was telling us to look at each other with respect. To not turn women into objects to be possessed, lessened.

    Sex is a part of our nature - the sliminess we learn

    Now - will this argument convince your J-Dub friend? I am sure that it will not. However, swinger or not, it is the position that makes the most sense given the over all context of the Biblical story.

    In my opinion, anyway

    Spoomonkey

    PS - To be fair to myself, I wrote this right before bed and I am pretty tired. So the "outline" is sloppy. If it makes no sense - let me know and I'll explain my points better.
    Last edited by Spoomonkey; 12-20-2006 at 09:43 PM.
    "Eros will have naked bodies; Friendship naked personalities." - C. S. Lewis

  3. #3
    Only slightly cracked... BradAndJanet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    Spoo, you can be my preacherman any time. That was one fine sermon.

    -B
    "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." - Mark Twain
    All about us...

  4. #4
    Open to the Universe avid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    ::::standing up and applauding Spoomonkey::::

    Thank you so much for that. You rock.

    Signed,

    a former bible-thumping, hand-waving, card-carrying Baptist.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    Hi dragon,
    Here's a thought you might ask your neighbor at work.

    Ask him if God redeems things and people?
    I assume he will say yes.
    So then ask him if God can redeem pagans. Can God then redeem pagan holidays. That's what I believe, God can redeem anything.

    As for Mt.5:28 and lusting. The Greek word is often translates covet. So Jesus is saying don't commit adultery or desire to commit adultery. IE covet your neighbor's wife.

    hope this helps a little more.

    dayhiker

  6. #6
    Swinger lickin good... dragonblade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    Thanks Spoo. Even tired you make sense to me I don't think either one of us ( my friend and myself) went into this conversation with the intention to change each other's minds. I think it's just about understanding each other. Because of living so far from my family and whatnot, I'm very open about my beliefs in all aspects (though when Mom and I periphially discussed it she told me she would pray for me ) but he was just interested in how and why I believe as I do. And I know why I do, but it's hard to put verse to verse when I haven't read the whole bible and I haven't tried to pinpoint verse for verse to be able to prove my life, my thoughts etc beyond a shadow of a doubt...I'm the kind of person that will share with you and discuss with you and respect everything you're saying (not agree necessarily but at least respect) as long as you respect me...no, that's not even quite true, I still will respect your ideals if you don't respect me, I just won't talk to you anymore Anyway, being able to talk about those verses as being against a lack of respect for a woman, seeing them as "fresh meat" (for lack of a better term at the moment) instead of the wonderful, beautiful person they are. That's what I gathered you were saying anyway.

    Thanks again! Any other opinions are more than welcome!

    :christmas

    ~Blade~

    PS. Spoo, I was following the "Rhymes with Monkey" thread. Glad you're doing so much better
    It is with our passions, as it is with fire and water, they are good servants but bad masters.
    ~ Aesop (620 BC - 560 BC)

  7. #7
    Canadian, eh? intuition897's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    Well I had just taken a deep breath and was about to formulate a big long speech...but I think I'll just save my breath and say "big Dito to Spoomonkey."

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoomonkey
    Was he saying don't look at a woman as a sexual being? What sort of crazy, fucked up god makes men visual and then punishes them for looking? It is insane that anyone would think that this makes sense. No - Jesus was telling us to look at each other with respect. To not turn women into objects to be possessed, lessened.
    Couldn't have said it better myself. This is what led me to start questioning my beliefs. I simply can't follow a god that I can be better than in any respect. And when I start to think that perhaps God is making poor decisions or is petty or unfair, I have to wonder...am I just misunderstanding what God is saying, or is He actually really abusing his power the way I think He is?? I just can't follow a god that doesn't make sense, and as Spoo said, to make men and women such robustly sexual creatures and then tell them that they must deny the nature He created in them is just illogical. That is not to say that we cannot control ourselves...indeed we can...but I also can't follow a God who wants his children to be miserable; like any father, I would expect that He would take pleasure in watching his kids play on the swingset in the back yard. When it's nothing but good, clean, harmless fun and no one is being drawn away from God in the process (no one feels morally conflicted), then I just can't see why a celebration of the life He gave us is a bad thing??

    I've given up on the idea of convincing anyone. I'd love to be completely open with everyone I meet, but I realize that this is just not reality. My mother would be mortally wounded if I even brought up this conversation. Therefore, I won't. I respect their need for distance from such things, and I won't argue with them about my beliefs if I feel it will cause them any grief. My need for vindication will just have to wait.
    Fear is a symptom of ignorance. Knowledge is the cure.

  8. #8
    Founder JustAskJulie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    First off Spoo - Well done! I can't wait to see what you come back and post tomorrow after a good night's sleep.

    Quote Originally Posted by intuition897
    I've given up on the idea of convincing anyone. I'd love to be completely open with everyone I meet, but I realize that this is just not reality. My mother would be mortally wounded if I even brought up this conversation. Therefore, I won't. I respect their need for distance from such things, and I won't argue with them about my beliefs if I feel it will cause them any grief. My need for vindication will just have to wait.
    One of my major beliefs is that everyone has a right to their own beliefs, and just as I want others to respect my beliefs it is important for me to respect theirs, and that more often that not means keeping my mouth closed about my own (just the way I wish they'd do about theirs).

  9. #9
    Not a potential *** Chicup's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    Nice thing about being an atheist is I don't have to mince words with someone over text that has been re-translated a dozen times, to decide where its a good place and where its not a good place to stick my penis.

  10. #10
    Just a hick Okie Alura's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    Beautiful post, Spoo! Thank you!

    Mr. Alura
    "They may call me a rube and a hick, but I'd a lot rather be the man who bought the Brooklyn Bridge than the man who sold it."
    óWill Rogers

  11. #11
    Here to Stay dinkydow4us's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    Well said Mr. Spoo. You hit the nail square on the head. If you were our minister, I'd think about going back to church.
    D. D.

  12. #12
    Registered hotblueyes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    One of my major beliefs is that everyone has a right to their own beliefs, and just as I want others to respect my beliefs it is important for me to respect theirs, and that more often that not means keeping my mouth closed about my own (just the way I wish they'd do about theirs).
    As an avowed and outspoken atheist, I do accept the rights of others to believe what ever they want. I do not however have to respect their silly beliefs.

    Have any of you read Sam Harris (The End Of Faith) or his latest ( Letter To A Christian Nation ) ?

    They are both great reading and I highly recommend them.

    Thanks

  13. #13
    Canadian, eh? intuition897's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    Quote Originally Posted by hotblueyes
    As an avowed and outspoken atheist, I do accept the rights of others to believe what ever they want. I do not however have to respect their silly beliefs.
    At the risk of having this thread dissolve into an argument, I just thought I'd comment on this.

    There are a great many "avowed and outspoken" Christians out there who make it their business to single-handedly save every soul they meet by saying "Praise Jesus" and quoting John 3:16 in every other sentence. Most people don't like these people, and they piss are pissed off by them. Why? Because they're obnoxious and don't know when to shut up. I don't have a problem with what they believe - being a believer in Jesus myself - but I do have a problem with their delivery of The Good News and the way they shove their take on Christianity down the throats of those who never asked for their opinion. I will offer up my un-asked-for opinion on occasion if I can do so unobtrusively and if it's relevant to the conversation, but to do it in such a pointed fashion is, I must say, counterproductive.

    There are few things in this life that we HAVE to do. Breathing is one of them. Respecting one another is not. Neither is being kind or helpful. Neither is loving others. These are not things that we HAVE to do. But we do these things because it makes sense to do them. It is good for us and those that we have to live with (and who have to live with us) here on Earth.

    hotblueyes, you may not believe the same things that I believe, but it would be appreciated if you can respect that your beliefs are not the only ones worth believing, and that others' beliefs, while "silly" to you, are anything but silly or misguided or foolish to them. A belief in a divine Creator does not satisfy the criteria for defining a person as having a lack of intelligence. Neither does atheism. It's just a difference in what you believe. Why we believe what we believe is what defines our intelligence.
    Fear is a symptom of ignorance. Knowledge is the cure.

  14. #14
    Registered hotblueyes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    you may not believe the same things that I believe, but it would be appreciated if you can respect that your beliefs are not the only ones worth believing, and that others' beliefs, while "silly" to you, are anything but silly or misguided or foolish to them.
    First off, I will not resort to an argument that was not and is not my intent.
    The post was about monogamy and a belief in a god of some kind who might be angry because we swing.
    I was just trying to expand on spoos statement "My answer now would be - "who cares?"
    And I do respect your right to believe what ever you want as long as it does not infringe on me. And that is the rub.
    You keep refering to my lack of religion as a belief, well it's no such thing.
    My lack of religion is based on a knowledgeable and reasonable assesment of the historical and scientific facts, it has nothing to do with belief.

    So my answer is much like the one spoo gave,,,,,,,Who Cares what they think ....

    thanks
    Last edited by TNT; 12-21-2006 at 02:01 PM. Reason: Fixed quotes

  15. #15
    Swinger lickin good... dragonblade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discussing non-monogamy with religious people..

    Thanks to all that have responded thus far. Hotblueeyes makes me think I perhaps didn't word things correctly so let me clarify (to them at least) my intention. I do believe in God and Jesus etc. However, I also believe that the bottom line he taught was love. Love others, love yourself, and above that love him. I also believe there were several gospels left out of the bible and it has been translated (wrongly) SO many times that it more likely than not is far from original intention. The way Constantine decided to put the Bible together is a matter of popularity and politics, but I digress. Regardless, I see the Bible as a good general guidebook to live by.

    I do NOT believe that He was against swinging, or polyamory, or anything of a nature that is loving and consenting and not hurting others. Do I believe He was against adultery? Of course. Do I believe he was against lying and deceit? Well duh. Yeah. But those things have nothing to do with swinging.

    My questions were/are about how do I back these things up? I'm not trying to convince him, I know he won't convince me, but I do enjoy intellectual conversation and trying to defend my positions. I just need some help from people that have done more study than myself.

    For instance, I know that Saul/Paul is known to have severe mental problems, but I can't find where I read that or "prove" it. That's the newest thing that we've moved on to discuss.

    Also, fornication. as far as I know the only definition for that is "sex before marriage and/or adultery". Is the use of the word fornicaiton in the bible mistranslated from something else?

    Again, of course I will be attempting my own research, so as to counter points (not because I "HAVE TO BE RIGHT" but because it is stimulating and challenging to me when what I believe is questioned and challenged. Others don't need to concede to it, but I'd like to be.. firm in my stance I guess.

    Thanks guys!!

    ~Blade~
    It is with our passions, as it is with fire and water, they are good servants but bad masters.
    ~ Aesop (620 BC - 560 BC)

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