This link might help you with some of your questions.
I'm a christian but im not sure if the bible is saying that it is really sinful to be bi or if swinging is wrong as long as you and your husband are in on it together and we dont lie to each other. Believe it or not we have been swinging for about 10 years and this question still bothers me. Sometimes i just dont know if what im doing is wrong in God's eyes. Any insights? Im sure Im not the only one out there that has wondered about this.
This link might help you with some of your questions.
Ted and Teresa
No lifetime is enough unless you live it in such a way as to make it enough.
thanks, ill go check it out.
I could post a really huge long comment about this, but I'll try to keep it short.
I think the Holy Bible has become something that its message actually prohibits: an idol. I mean, come on! It's wood pulp and ink covered by the preserved skin of a dead animal. And while the words in it are divinely inspired, they have been translated by man. Pure light through dirty lenses, if you will. The men who wrote those words were not perfect, and their past experiences coloured the way they interpreted that inspiration. If it were not so, there would be no difference between writing styles and themes from one book to the next. It is foolhardy to blindly follow anything without questioning it. If it is true, it will stand of it's own accord.
We're all individuals and we all think very differently. It's not our specific opinions that matter so much, or our particular quirks - it is the intent with which we live our lives. We are told to question all things (can't remember that chapter:verse, but it's in there), and in Romans 14 it explains that what one man considers holy another man might consider sin. And we are all to live according to what we know in our own hearts and souls is right. If we are doing something that we truly feel is offensive to God, and then consciously decide to CONTINUE to do it, well I think that's what He's going to care about.
This life is a test run, a dress rehearsal. We've been given the equivalent of crash test cars for lives. These bodies are not expected to last forever; do you really think God cares about a couple of dings in the fender? Scars, both physical and emotional, are inevitible. It's how we learn. The point isn't that we get to the end of the road course with our cars completely intact; the point is that we have learned to drive responsibly, without hurting others or ourselves. This pleases God.*
That's why the Golden Rule covers all the others: just love each other and do not do harm. It's not rocket science, folks! If that one law was perfectly kept, there would never be a need for any others. That is the entire underlying theme that runs throughout the Bible. Just keep it between the lines and live a good and happy life. And part of living that good life is doing what you can to positively affect the lives of others, embracing what is good and holy and denouncing what is not. There is SO much good in this world to be embraced; it's just hard to see when it's covered in bullshit. So I just like to suggest that everyone grab a shovel and start removing the bullshit and get down to the good stuff.
Did this post make sense to anyone? Probably not...
EDIT>> Just wanted to add that this is not to say that we are free to trash our bodies as we please. We have been entrusted with the care of our bodies, and should be respectful of the craftsmanship, care and love that went into making them.
Last edited by intuition897; 01-11-2006 at 05:12 PM.
Fear is a symptom of ignorance. Knowledge is the cure.
About 3 months ago we had quite a long discussion about church and swinging.
here is the URL
Swinging and Christianity
The following is not my opinion. I am against any restrictions, legal or religious, that shame or punish people for having fun that doesn't harm anyone. But, the Bible is clear on the issue of both adultery and homosexuality, both are condemned and forbidden, no ifs ands or buts. I have a friend who is a Methodist Minister who has studied these things. A huge controversy in that denomination recently was whether to allow actively practicing gay clergy to preach. The issue was not about hating gays, the Methodists, like others, adopt a "hate the sin, love the sinner" approach, but having openly practicing gay clergy was too much for the institution. At a big meeting recently the whole denomination voted to keep the prohibition. Why? Only because it is forbidden by the Bible in no uncertain terms. Since the Bible is clear, it is a matter of free will as to whether or not you choose to follow it. Myself? I am a self described "apatheticist," I don't care which religion is right, I think they are all myth, but I don't profess to know the "truth." I'm not an athiest because I do not claim to have special knowledge that allows me to assert that God DOESN'T exist any more than I have special knowledge that he does. I chose not to be bound by any religion, they all proclaim to know the truth by divine revelation but they all conflict in their basic creeds. Some religions have even died out, despite at one time having many adherents; remember, those Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans really believed in all those Gods! But for those who do believe, in the end, you will have to reconcile yourself to it, or change yourself, because a 2000 year old instutionalized organization isn't about to change centuries of teaching in order to accomodate the changing fashions of popular culture. The leaders of every major religion are in a constant battle with modern western popular culture; swinging, divorce, extra marital sex, and what they see as "moral decline." This is what the Pope and Osama have in common, a desire to turn back the clock and reinstate religious dogma over skeptical secularism as the political order. I personally see the western popular culture as freedom oriented, authority bucking, inquisitive, and as a BETTER alternative to dogma! For too many thousands of years religious dogma has been used to shame, shutter, and stamp out human activities that hurt no one but violate the "rules." I wish there was a "Christianity Lite" that would allow people to swing and do other "banned" things, but that is not going to happen. Unfortunately, if you really believe, and if you are honest with yourself, then you must decide whether to practice your religion or go against it, but the authorities won't let you have it both ways. Eyesonus
Hear, hear, eyesonus. Very good post. Since I am the keeper of quotes, , I'll leave you here with a few of my favorites regarding organized religion, because they all take themselve to seriously and all of them are mortal men interpreting to the masses what God (or whatever you're comfortable with) is saying.
"Scriptures, n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based."
~ Ambrose Bierce
“Conventionality is not morality. Self-righteousness is not religion.”
~ Charlotte Bronte
“Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think.”
~ Arthur Shopenhauer
“In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.”
“Morality is herd instinct in the individual.”
~ Friedrich Nietzsche
“It is a fine thing to establish one's own religion in one's heart, not to be dependent on tradition and second-hand ideals. Life will seem to you, later, not a lesser, but a greater thing.”
~ D. H. Lawrence
"Sex is something you do, sexuality is something you are." ~ Anna Freud
You wrote a very good post. I agree with most of it. I also don't expect the organized church to change. I'd love to know whow many people have left the church because of its stand on sexual activities.
I've studied the Bible all my life. While I'm not a scholar in knowing the orginal languages and don't claim to be able to comprehend as much material as many with higher IQs. I can also say this about myself. I have studied the Bible to know what it says more than many pastors. I'm willing to say when the Bible says even when its not popular. My job doesn't depend on meeting a othodoxy statement.
It's only been in the last 18 months that I've studied what the Bible actually says about sex and tied to understand what it meant to those that wrote it and to those it was written to. My finding is that church tradition is has redefined many words that are now used to condemn people in their sexual activities. Both adultery and fornication mean differant things to us today than they did in Biblical days. Almost all teaching on divorce is differant than what they beleived in the NT times. Many pastors teach that masterbation is sin and the Bible is total silent about it other than one verse speaking of male emissions in general.
So I find most Bible teachers are teaching what they want the Bible to say about sex rather than what it actually says.
I agree with your thesis, the church will keep people from enjoying loving sex for years to come.
I can't speak to whether the Bible explicitly forbids swinging or being bi.
But I do know that where knowledge goes . . . . God dies.
We have a need as a species to put the unknown in the hands of God so that we can be comfortable with the larger questions. It's easier to have a moral compass provided for you than it is to take that responsibility on yourself.
If you were to go back 250 years and showed an educated individual (for the time) a box that would let you see his bones, you'd be hanged for being in league with the devil. Today, no one questions the use of Xrays and the explanation of what makes them work. The instances of those kinds of change in thinking are innumerable.
It's telling that while our acceptance that a new material discovery can replace a divine explanation with a scientific one we continue to seriously struggle with the role sex plays in our society. We still look to our religion to provide us with the "right" answer.
If you want to control a mass of individuals you need to take command of two things . . . fear and sex, two of our most powerful motivators. Establish clear and hard rules around sex and enforce them with fear and you rule the world.
Knowledge has a tendency to move faster than dogma so the organized religions are left to scramble to keep up and adapt their structure to the new matrix of society. And because they can no longer impose a physical fear (in Western cultures) to keep their structure in place, it is becoming more and more difficult to keep the individual on their "moral" path.
Is it a sin to swing? Only the individual can answer that. Some will never be capable of it. Some will rationalize it, other's will turn a blind eye to it and yield to their desires.
Our attitude toward sexual morals is just another element of change (albeit a slow one) in our ever shifting view of how we fit into the scheme of things.
Swinging and Christianity (“The Church”) aren’t on the same page. It seems like swingers want to believe they have evolved past such archaic beliefs. However, the majority think it’s a slight form of devolution. Animalistic? Maybe? What is right? Isn’t it comical how everyone wants to shift the definition of Christianity? It doesn’t answer your question. Swinging is wrong in the eyes of God (as defined through Christianity.) Period. Doesn’t mean you have to believe in God though. C’mon guys give them a straight answer.
when it comes to organized religion and swinging, you're either in or your out. This applies to all three western religions (Christianity, Islam and Judiasm). I've read all the rationalizations about the Bible somehow sanctioning FFM but not MFM threesomes, spilt seed and all the rest. I suspect what many people are seeking in this forum is
some sort of absolution from participating in the lifestyle. It ain't happening. You should either make a conscious decision to play and stop waisting your time looking for God's approval.
Now can you be part of the lifestyle and still function actively within a structured religion, of course you can. But you will have to do it with the knowledge that you, as a swinger, are not a saint (ie you're a sinner) and that you and your spouse have faults. Whether or not you will feel the guilt by breaking the commandments or the Koran is totally between you and the 'Man upstairs".
if you study the 2000 year long history of christianity, as opposed to the other religions, you will soon realize that christianity is the most sex-negative religion of them all. virginity and life-long celibacy is what christianity considered holy and for most of the 2000 years even sex between wives and husbands was considered dirty. strict oppression of peoples sexual needs and behaviors was one of the basic preocupation of the church from its beginnings, so I don't doubt swinging, like many other forms of sexual expressions (including masturbation, homo and bisexuality, adultery, pre-marital sex etc) are out of the question. according to this religion, sex in general, and sex for pleasure instead of for procreation in particular, is WRONG. be sure you'll burn in hell for swinging, if you believe in hell of course.
and by the way, we live in the 21 century, where science explains everything that people 2000 years ago were unable to explain and had to invent stories to understand their world. is (organized) religion still necessary for intelligent and educated people of this era?
Actually - One of my bachelor's degrees is in the Bible...
So I would say that I have a bit of background
Personally, from a contextual viewpoint, there is no conflict with Christianity and swinging. I don't like to get into it, because I do believe their is a larger issue in people exploring the truth for themselves, but to say that it is mutually exclusive is pretty haughty. Considering better men then us has debated many, many issues of the faith without coming to a mutually satisfying conclusion, what makes anyone here think that they can take such a rigid stand?
"Eros will have naked bodies; Friendship naked personalities." - C. S. Lewis
I’m sorry you’re not getting a satisfactory answer from these self-proclaimed experts. How about visiting your Priest to explore your question? He will have a much better idea.
Ah yes. A real expert. :rollseyesOriginally Posted by azmichael36
Fear is a symptom of ignorance. Knowledge is the cure.