Who do you find more attractive, me or my spouse?

First let me say long time lurker, I've been reading through this forum for a couple of years now, and the posts and topics have been very informative, you wonderful guys and gals have made it easy for my wife and I to begin exploring this side of our sexuality, and although we have discussed this for what seems like forever (actually over the course of 7 years), we decided to take the plunge and try the lifestyle when my wife finally decided she was ready to come out of her shell, and felt we were stable enough to handle it.

So we began our journey 2 years ago by trying a few of the dating apps to try and connect. At first we said we would only try and find a female for a threesome, but after months of looking (and no luck), we decided at the end of May this year to open it up and look for a compatible couple (MF). Well two weeks ago we found a couple and we thought from the profile looked compatible and I sent them a PM. (names of the couple, for sake of post, are Bill and Ann).

The Wife of the Couple (Ann) hit me back and said do you have KIK, if so I can create a group and we can all hang out and get to know each other. So I got KIK installed on mine and my wife's phone and set up the accounts (my wife isn't internet savvy) and we started to get to know each other, via a group chat.

Last weekend we had a dinner date and met up. We conversated, but my wife is an extrovert, (I'm an introvert) so she did most of the talking and asking questions. We told them up front we were newbies, so they new what to expect, and said they were cool with us asking questions. While the other couple seemed genuine and real, I just didn't get the vibe that the Wife (Ann) was that into me, as she didn't engage me directly, just added to whatever her husband (Bill) brought up. She did mention that she is a submissive, and likes to be tied up and spanked, which I told her I found intriguing, but nothing really else as far as direct contact to me. Bill and my wife seemed to hit it off well.

Following the date, Bill and my wife regularly exchange heavy flirts and messages in the Kik Chat, and I try to engage Ann, but I really don't hear from her. A few days by and my wife decides to up the ante by sending a sexy bra pic (no nudity) and that got both Bill and Ann to respond with heavy flirting to my wife. In fact, it all but seems like

Ann is actually interested in my wife, more so than either of us (my wife and I) thought.

So, now the three of them (my wife and Bill and Ann) have made plans to try and meet up for a soft swap in a week. Unfortunately, I'm starting to get the sinking feeling that I may be a third wheel here, and that if we do meet up, it will result in me being sidelined.

I brought my concerns up to my wife, but she seems to think that I'm being paranoid, and untrusting. She points out that Ann (the wife) messaged me directly and hit me up first to initiate the group chat. I pointed out that its not that far fetched for someone to grab someone else's phone and pretend to be somebody else to chat: Maybe the husband (Bill) initiated the chat request from her phone, because the wife, she just wants a girl experience, and didn't want to come across that way? (I say this because there was no pictures of my wife in the Dating app we met on. Just two picks of me. The first time they 'saw' my wife was when we all were in the Kik Chat.

So my wife, to prove me wrong, initiated a simple request next time she was on the chat, which was to ask the wife (Ann) directly: "Who do you find more attractive, me or my spouse?"

Bill the husband quickly responded "oh she's in the shower, and then when she gets out she has to run to the store, so it may be a minute before she answers".

25 minutes later the answer we get is "Well, I would like to explore with everyone."

So of course, to my wife that is an okay answer.

So last couple of days I try and initiate conversations, directly to the wife (hey how is it going Ann, how's your day Ann, etc)in our KIK group.

Crickets.

My wife and Bill on the other hand are going hot and heavy in their conversations, and each one is getting more daring than the last. Ann will respond if my wife mentions her, or if Bill Mentions her, but doesn't respond to me.

So am I being wrong in what I assume is going to happen? Or is this commonplace, that sometimes one spouse from either couple are more turned on and hot for another, and so they conversate more, and click better? The fact that I don't even get anything back responsive (Hey, let me know your at least alive Ann? lol) trips my spidey-sense big time. Bill and Ann said they have been in the LS for 4 or 5 years), and the first night they talked and talked ( Bill mostly) about what he brings to the table for his partners (lots and lots of toys) and what they like to do and have done to them.

My wife is gung ho and ready for this to go down (New lingerie bought for the event, non stop excitement), and when I brought up that we may even have to pay for the hotel in this, even though she has reigned in our spending habits this summer, she said we should be able to pay for it fine.

But if I bring up the fact that I don't think this gonna work, or that I feel this is one sided, my wife gets upset, and reminds me how long this took her to come around to it, that I'm being overtly paranoid, that it will work out just don't back out, etc.

I could really use some sagely advice on this, so that I can understand and figure out my next move before next weekend.

Thank you all for listening.

Red, RED flags everywhere in this post.

Ok believing we should move on as well. Should I be polite and tell the other couple WHY, or just run and cut bait?

We've learned over a decade and a half in this hobby that we don't owe anybody anything other than general courtesy. A simple, "this isn't working for us" should be sufficient. Then block the numbers. You still may have a bigger problem if, as you describe, your wife is really enamored with this guy. He is clearly playing you both.

One of our 'golden' rules is that if either of us isn't 'feeling' it, is that we will walk away...no explanation necessary. It's HARD to find a four way match but when you do, its AWESOME. Talk to your wife about this and that you just aren't feeling it with the other woman and start looking for your next couple. Going forward is probably not end up with you having a positive experience. Don't think that you are going to 'take one for the team'...never a good plan. Good luck and we wish you success the next time.

Red Flags, we would walk away. If all parties are not that in to each other then someone is making a concession so the other can get what they want. That is a selfish act and we do not like being around selfish people, plus it sounds like the man is playing your wife.

Thank You all for the responses and advice. After some discussion last night, we decided to end it, and politely told them "we do not believe we are the couple for you. Nest of luck finding what you desire".

For now my wife says to give her a few days to get over it, so I'm giving her her space. She keeps trying to rationalize it, believing still that no one would go to all the trouble to show up to a date to

just concede to let their spouse have what they want. But I explained to her, from reading up on the LS, it can and seems to happen a lot. Eventually through time, she will get over it and we will continue to look

until we find the right one.

In my opinion I'd have probably given things a try with this couple, or at least met them and discussed your feelings in a more honest and open way. In reality there could be a lot of reason why this "Ann" person doesn't seem that interested in you. Maybe she just doesn't talk much online, maybe she has a busy lifestyle and can not pick up the phone every two minutes, maybe she is shy, maybe she doesn't want to get too heated in the group chat so her own husband doesn't worry, maybe she is sat their wondering if you find her attractive, maybe she wants to get physical before she makes any final choices on you as a person, maybe like a lot of wives she is willing to do this but doesn't want to let it take over her life, that she is willing to play but doesn't want to talk about it everyday. maybe she is just nervous.

There are a lot of reasons why this women might not be chatting very much, in fact a good percent of swingers wives take a back seat role, not every wife is raring to go. In today's world a lot of women have jobs / social circles of friends / a house to help look after / children to look after / various other associated tasks such as cooking / shopping / working out / and still trying to find time to relax. I'm NOT SAYING that its a women's job to cook and clean, I'm simply saying that a lot of women have a LOT on their plates, a lot of women are trying to juggle been a mother, with working, with looking after a home, with having some friends, with making sure bills are paid and the shopping gets done, that generally a women can not make swinging the only thing she thinks about.

I know from experience that a lot of women keep swinging / talking about swinging at arms length, not only because they have busy lives, because they do not want the subject to dominate their lives, do not want the subject to take over their lives, but also I believe from a psychological point of view talking about swinging ALL OF THE TIME or even chatting about it with other people can sometimes have a negative effect. There is a good percent of women who simply want things to happen naturally, that they want things to be spontaneous.

This is just something I have noticed over the years but basically "sometimes" if a women gets too involved with the sexy chat / swingers talk then it makes them feel like a whore, it makes them feel like they arranging some seedy dirty sexual meeting. How many women have you seen or even dated in your life that say "Hey lets just go for a few drinks and take it from there" or "Lets meet for a coffee and see what happens" that a lot of women do not want to talk about every sexual detail, do not want to spend hours flirting. When you first meet a girlfriend for example do you spend a week talking about every sexual position your going to try, do you spend a week messaging her arranging what time your going to have sex, where your going to have sex, how your going to have sex.

In some respects this is suppose to be a fun experience, its suppose to be exciting, its suppose to be enjoyable, and sometimes spending two weeks trying to arrange when your meeting for sex not only helps make people feel nervous but takes away a lot of that magic. I am simply speaking from experience but women who are new to swinging sometimes feel bad about arranging to meet stranger for sex, it makes them feel cheap, makes them feel like a sex object and not a person.

I mean sure if this "Ann" women met you for a few drinks and you got along well, you laughed, she began to felt comfy and then decided to head home with you for some sex, then sure that to her might feel more natural than spending two weeks talking about it on Kik everyday. My point been there are plenty of reasons why this "Ann" women might not be speaking to you directly. Maybe she would prefer to spend several months getting to know you in person after which she might really like you.

HOWEVER.......

Perhaps what jumps out at me about this post is something I have seen / heard 10'000 times from men, something that can be very dangerous for your swinging fantasies and even your relationship.

You see 9 times out of 10 its the man / husband who brings up the idea of swinging, that the man approaches his wife and says he has a desire to explore group sex, the man tells his wife or girlfriend that he would like to try threesomes or foursomes, that he wants to see his wife getting fucked by another man, that he wants to see his wife playing sexually with another women.

Now from that point the man can face a very long, very difficult, and sometimes uphill battle to get his wife to agree to this idea, to give his wife enough time to adjust to this idea, to become use to this idea. Its not uncommon for couples to spend 1 year or even 10 years talking about this subject before they even try it. That yes it can take YEARS worth of talking / thinking / soul searching / research to reach a point where the couple feels ready to try this subject.

Then when the women does finally agree to try her husbands desires, when the women finally does become comfy with this idea and meets someone to actually play with. THEN AT THAT POINT the male of the couple suddenly becomes insecure / paranoid / jealous / worried and starts slamming on the breaks and making accusations.

That actually for the last 5 years this man has been asking his wife to sleep with another man / another women / maybe a couple, and finally when that time arrives, when his wife feels ready to try, the man then freaks out and makes various comments to his girlfriend like.....

"You like the other man more than me, I'm jealous"

"You and this other man really seemed to have hit it off and I'm now feeling insecure"

"You now seem too eager to try this and its got me worried"

That actually this man has just spent 5 years talking to his wife about this subject and the very second she feels comfy, the very second she is willing to try the man then scolds his wife, he becomes jealous, he begins to act insecure about the entire idea, he becomes controlling, possessive, paranoid about his wife and it can very easily end this entire fantasy and damage the relationship your in.

The next time this man asks his wife to consider a threesome or foursome she says.....

"Eeermmmmm NO THANKS because the last time we tried to do this you became paranoid, you accused me of liking this other person more, you became insecure and acted like an upset child, you showed off, you got jealous, you put me off the entire idea, you speak about this all the time but then freak out when we actually meet anyone I like, the people we met before were nice, they made me feel comfy and all you did was turn into a paranoid insecure person who accused me of bad things, NO THANKS I'd rather not go through that again so we won't be trying swinging again ever"

That actually if your wife meets someone who she feels comfy with / feels excited about meeting / feels confident about then really if it was ME in that position I'd let my wife jump in and I'd show her that sure this subject isn't bad / this subject isn't wrong / that yeah she can have sex with other people and I will NOT become paranoid / jealous / controlling / insecure, that instead I'll give her lots of love, support, positive encouragement, I will be here number 1 fan cheering her on / you go get em girl, you have some fun, that is amazing, you did amazingly well, nope you haven't even done 1 single thing wrong, if you feel comfy safe and happy then that's all I care about.

Sure you just spent an hour riding another mans cock, sure you kissed him, sucked his dick, cum all over his dick, WELL DONE. Nope I'm not jealous, nope I'm not insecure, nope I'm not worried or paranoid, we have spoken about this for years and I'm perfectly happy and excited by you trying such things, I am very thankful indeed that you have tried such things, I think you have done amazingly well, I think you have been sex, brave, open minded and I'm so glad you have trusted me enough to do this.

In a lot of cases if your wife/girlfriend sleeps with someone else she is not looking at the size of that mans dick, she is not looking for how great this new person is in bed, a lot of the time she is simply looking how her own partner reacts. If I do this will my boyfriend/husband turn into a insecure jealous paranoid wreck who accuses me of wrongdoing, OR will he be a positive, happy, secure person who has got myy back and doesn't become worried or paranoid and over think every little detail.

I must have seen and heard this 10'000 times, how a man spends many years convincing his partner to try swinging and then the second they meet someone the man freaks out and shoots himself in the foot and helps ruin the entire idea of swinging for his wife. If every time a couples meets someone the man becomes negative / paranoid / insecure / starts worrying about everything then sure the women will soon change her mind about the entire thing. The vast majority of women want a partner who is confident, secure, safe, not controlling or jealous, that a lot of women want their man to SHOW THEM that this subject is okay.

Most women do not want a man who turns into a scared insecure paranoid child when things like this happen.

SECONDLY......

The other thing that jumps out at me is that YOUR WIFE is actually eager about this idea, YOUR WIFE is talking to this other couple, she is flirting with this other couple, she is buying sexy underwear to try and impress this other couple, YOUR WIFE is taking an active role in swinging.

Do you know how many men there are who would literally cut off their left ball to have a wife like that. You do understand that 90% of men who ask their wives to swing face a very long, very difficult, sometimes totally pointless uphill battle to even get their wives to mention the idea, to even get their wives to consider this idea. The vast majority of wives who get asked about this idea just are not bothered about it at all. They never talk about it, they never really get excited about it, they just have endless concerns, worries, drama based around the idea.

There are SO MANY guys out there who are with wives who refuse to swing / refuse to even talk about swinging / refuse to think about it / refuse to take on board basic facts, that a lot of women will spend an entire decade pushing this idea away, putting up walls against this idea, trying to kill off this idea. There are a lot of guys out there who would kill to have your wife, who would love to have your wife, a women who is happy to chat about this subject, a women who is taking an active role in this lifestyle, a women who is happy and comfy to explore.

Not every man meets a women like that, in fact some men face an almost impossible battle to even get their wives to talk about this subject never mind going out to buy sexy underwear. If your wife is willing to do this then you need to encourage that and show her that she can, that its okay, not try and hold her back and become paranoid ect.

THIRDLY......

You mentioned that really you wanted to try this with a women and joined several dating apps looking for a women to play with.

In my honest experience if you want to meet a women to have a threesome with then you do not actually need dating apps / swingers websites or anything like that. Honestly in my life I have had a fair few MFF threesomes and virtually every girl I have met for those threesomes have been met in everyday life, they have been met at bars / clubs / restaurants / on trains / at events.

In my experience when a women joins a dating site / swinging site then she will get totally 100% bombarded with messages from every single man in a 200 mile radius, from virtually all of the couples, I have seen a single women join a swingers site and in 2 days flat she had 5'000 messages. It can be very difficult indeed to communicate with women on those sites and apps, they are often spoilt for choice.

My way of meeting a women to have a threesome is simply by ASKING a women in real life, and its worked for me enough times.

However there is a little trick to this subject which I have already said various times on this forum.

THE TRICK is simply to ask a women for a threesome, WITHOUT actually asking her for a threesome.

What do I mean?

Okay lets say you meet a women at a bar / club / restaurant / on a train / at an event, it doesn't actually matter where you meet this women, but basically YOU MEET A WOMEN and are able to start a conversation with her, you are able to engage her in small talk.

For example.....

You meet a women in a nightclub, she is sitting alone, she doesn't look like she has a boyfriend, so you simply sit next to her and try and engage her in conversation.

"Hello how are you? Are you having a nice night? What do you think of the music here? Are you out with your friends or boyfriend? Nice weather we have been having? Whats your favourite band? What do you think of this club? Have you seen this latest film? So was you born around here? I had a bad day at work the other day what about you?"

It doesn't really matter what you talk about, your just making small talk.

Now at this point my objective is simply to FIND OUT IF THIS WOMEN IS SINGLE.

Does she have a husband? Does she have a boyfriend? If the answer is YES then I can quickly move on, I can say "Well it was nice talking to you but I better go find my friends"

If she does NOT have a boyfriend or husband and is currently single then I move on to phase two and after making small talk for a while I will say something like.

1: Hey I know this is a proper weird question and hopefully you will not got offended by me asking because really I could just do with some other peoples opinions, I'm a bit confused about this subject and could do with hearing what other people think. You see the other day one of my best friends asked me for some advice, he said him and his girlfriend were thinking of trying a threesome with someone they know and my friend asked me what I thought? I didn't know what to say to my friend and am trying to figure out what advice to give him, what do YOU think about the idea of a threesome?

2: Hey I know this is a strange subject but did you see the news yesterday, they ran a report on one of the news programs about threesomes. I just found it really odd that they ran a story about threesomes on day time TV as by all accounts they are really popular these days. What do you think about the threesome subject?

Now at this point I HAVE NOT ASKED HER TO HAVE A THREESOME. All I have asked is what SHE THINKS about the idea of a threesome.

Usually there are 3 possible outcomes.

1: Negative Response: The women replied by saying "Eeewwwww NO WAY a threesome sounds disgusting, a threesome sounds really bad, I'd never have a threesome, that's perverted. In which case you already know there is no point asking her for a threesome with you and your girlfriend.

2: Positive Response: The women replies by saying "Yeah I guess a threesome could be fun, I guess it could be fairly cool, yeah why not people are free to explore" Then you already know that she is single and open minded to the idea of a threesome which is great news for you.

3: Offended: In my experience this rarely happens, most women even give a positive or negative answer, however on rare occasion you may bump into a total sexual prude who becomes offended at you for even mentioning the word threesome. The women may become disgusted at you for mentioning the word threesome or may even call you a pervert for talking about such things. In response I have found it very easy to say.

"Hey I'm really sorry I didn't mean to offend you or anything, I was NOT asking you for a threesome, personally I find the idea really freaky and disgusting and I only asked because I don't know what to tell my friend who asked about that / I only asked because the news report I watched really shocked me as it was on daytime TV. I think YOU ARE RIGHT threesomes are totally disgusting, I AGREE WITH YOU"

Its hard for someone to stay mad at you when you are agreeing with them, usually I would quickly end that conversation "Anyway its been nice talking to you but I need to run off and find my friends, have a good night" and quickly make my escape.

THE POINT:

Is that you are simply looking for a women who gives a positive answer to the IDEA of a threesome.

You are NOT asking that women to have a threesome.

You are NOT asking that women for sex.

You are simply asking her what she thinks about the idea of a threesome? Is she pro threesome or against the idea of a threesome.

If the girl is single and gives a positive answer then I usually ask that girl for her phone number, or to add her on face book, or even take an email address.

When she asks WHY I want her details? I simply reply by saying I'd like to talk with her more if that is okay?

Usually the day after I will message the girl and from that point will begin to explain a lot more, will ask her to meet for a coffee because I'd like to speak with her about something, or I simply explain the situation and tell her that me and my girlfriend would really like to try a threesome and that I really liked talking to her the other night.

That sure I know this is strange, I know its a strange subject, but that we are clean, honest, decent people, were not looking to hurt anyone, and would she please meet me and at least hear what I have to say. If she doesn't like what I have to say she can walk away and never meet me again, if she does like what I have to say then perhaps we can talk more / meet again ECT.

I already know this girl gave a positive answer about the threesome idea, I already know she would consider the idea, we already talked about it just days before and most of the time I spend a week or two chatting to that girl, I arrange her to meet me with my girlfriend, and usually within a week or two I'm pulling off her knickers as she kisses my girlfriend.

You will find a LOT OF WOMEN especially those who are single will agree to have a threesome, you don't have to be on a swingers site to get a women to consider a threesome.

The only trick is asking a women to consider a threesome without actually asking them for a threesome.

Your just asking their opinion on the subject, those who give a positive "Yeah I'd give it a go" kind of answer will usually say yes to the idea when to you ask them later.

OP, in spite of the above, you did the right thing for your marriage. There are many, many other couples out there. Work on your selection process a bit and you'll be successful. Good luck to you both.

Sun&Moon, thank you for your opinions on the matter. We have mulled over the possiblity, with new information that has come to light to us, that the couple (Bill and Ann)each had the following in their backstory:

*Bill had been married before for 11 years, and he and his previous wife were in the LS. They divorced two years ago.

* Ann has been a unicorn for a couple for 4 years ago, for a period of about 2 years. she then took a break from the LS to try and go vanilla for a bit.

*Ann while she was a unicorn, was a sub to the husband who was her Master.

*Bill and Ann have only been together about 6 months, they are not married, but are in fact GF and Boyfriend.

With this new info we gathered from asking around, we realize that their issue maybe that being in a new relationship, may be their whole cause of why Ann was unresponsive / talkative to me in our chats. As you said "maybe she doesn't want to get too heated in the group chat so her own husband doesn't worry," in a new relationship with someone, I can see that being the possibility.

We continue our search and continue to grow and love as a couple. Thanks to all for the responses.

Hi

Some good advice in the above posts - BUT (lol here comes the talk )

We understand it is all very exciting and all but your wife's "reluctance" (for lack of a better word) to believe you or your gut feeling is in need of some more talk between the both of you.

While it's fine to have a difference of opinion - I'm not sure that trying to prove you wrong is the way to go - it comes down to this - why are you / her willing to overlook concerns of the SO to the point of showing them just how wrong they are?

No concerns of feelings a wrong if it's your partners telling you this - it has to be your number one priority to talk it out - without proving anything -

Now don't get me wrong you both got there in the end and that's a lot better then some that have posted (in other posts ) - all I am saying is that overlooking your partners feelings/concerns is not going to end well.