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We are tempted to tell our vanilla friends that we swing

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HELP, I NEED AN INTERVENTION!!!

 

The other day our BFF vanilla couple all of a sudden, and with zero warning asked, "So are you guys swingers?"

 

:eek:

 

We did all we could to play it off, but secretly both of us want them to know. We used to talk to them about EVERYTHING, but have felt that this topic is just too much for them to handle.

 

So, on one hand we're VERY anxious to tell them that we are and we love it, but on the other hand we know that once that cat is out of the bag... you can't put it back in! They are trying to make us feel comfortable that we can tell them anything, but we aren't sure if they would be comfortable with really knowing the "truth".

 

What do we do?!?! Do we avoid it all-together, or do we slowly let them know a few things (strip clubs, sexy parties, soft swap, etc.) and see how they react to each one before moving to the next?

 

On a related note, I'm feeling especially anxious for other people to find out. I worry that this feeling, if not totally suppressed, will make us less careful about the pics we post, stuff we say, etc. and may "out" us.

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Our best, current, friends are a couple who we share about everything with too. And I just imagined them asking us the same question your friends asked you.

 

I know that my wife would kill me if I told them the whole truth so I wouldn't. But I would answer, in a rather joking manner, that we're certainly not prudes. Then, if they continued to probe, I'd tell them that "if we told you, we'd have to kill you". Or maybe plead the 5th.

 

Then I'd turn it back on them and ask if they've ever explored swinging in any manner.

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You both want to tell them. They asked, so clearly they have a reason for asking... like they've already guessed... and they are clearly interested in the answer.

 

So, what's the problem with telling them?

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I would tell them. It's not like posting it on FB for everyone to see. They are you self-proclaimed BFFs and they asked.

 

 

Now on a personal note-

When SSH and I first started out I was terrified for anyone to find out. Now, not so much. My biggest problem with "coming out" is feeling like I would have to defend my choices to others. Not because I wouldn't be willing to but more because I just don't want the aggravation.

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I would turn it onto them. Instead of saying 'yes we are', I would laugh and ask 'what makes you say that?'. Have them give the reasons they made the statement and, depending on their response, go from there. It might just have been a joke or they may suspect something and were fishing for info. Find out why and try to get an idea as to what their feelings on the subject before pleading 'guilty'. Maybe quit wearing the 'I heart swinging' and 'Wanna trade?' T shirts around them for awhile.

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My favorite answer to that question has always been "why would you ask me that?" At least you get to assess if they've already guessed or are speculating based on your new hot tub (insert anything here) purchase.

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Then I'd turn it back on them and ask if they've ever explored swinging in any manner.

 

Ooohh... I like that! Great idea!!!

 

You both want to tell them. They asked, so clearly they have a reason for asking... like they've already guessed... and they are clearly interested in the answer.

 

So, what's the problem with telling them?

 

I think we're worried that being curious about something is one thing, but them actually KNOWING that we're doing it, and that we're really into it deeply, is another thing entirely. We think it's easy for them to have it in their head as a possibility, but also easy to dismiss it as just a thought... but once it becomes a hard reality / truth... then their perception of us and the relationship may be impacted in a negative and irreparable way.

 

I would turn it onto them. Instead of saying 'yes we are', I would laugh and ask 'what makes you say that?'. Have them give the reasons they made the statement and, depending on their response, go from there.

 

Ya, we definitely want to dig into the specifics of why they asked. What other hints gave them the idea and might also give others the same idea????

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Well if you don't want them to know for sure, I think YOU bringing it up again might make them suspect even more. If you were not swingers, I would expect that you would of shrugged it off and forgotten all about it by now.

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I think we're worried that being curious about something is one thing, but them actually KNOWING that we're doing it, and that we're really into it deeply, is another thing entirely. We think it's easy for them to have it in their head as a possibility, but also easy to dismiss it as just a thought... but once it becomes a hard reality / truth... then their perception of us and the relationship may be impacted in a negative and irreparable way.

 

To each their own I guess. I personally can't imagine calling anyone "friend" if I didn't expect them to accept me for who I am.

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I think it's safe to say that most people have "friends" in very different areas of their lives. There are some things we talk freely about with our vanilla "friends" and some stuff to our family "friends" and stuff to our LS "friends". I don't think the definition of a friend is so narrow that it requires 100% divulging of any and all information at all times to every person.

 

Also, these are VERY close friends that we've had for over 20 years. The Mrs. & I are in a very different place now that we're in the LS than we were just 3 years ago. We still love these friends dearly and have a ton in common, but there is now a HUGE area of our lives that we've been keeping from them... the big question: Do we share this part of our lives with them or not?

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I think it's safe to say that most people have "friends" in very different areas of their lives. There are some things we talk freely about with our vanilla "friends" and some stuff to our family "friends" and stuff to our LS "friends". I don't think the definition of a friend is so narrow that it requires 100% divulging of any and all information at all times to every person.

 

I agree with this. Not everyone knows everything about us, and that's OK. I'm also good with not knowing private things about some of my friends.

 

As for telling them, you really know better than we do how that will go. Mrs two4you has a friend that she has been close with for over 40 years. She knows this friend wouldn't be able to handle knowledge about this very small part of her life, so she doesn't tell her. She's not going to risk changing a life long friendship, nor is she going to throw away that same friendship because she can't tell her.

 

She has other friends that are very aware of our activities, and they are fine with it. She understands who can and can't handle it.

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I think it's safe to say that most people have "friends" in very different areas of their lives. There are some things we talk freely about with our vanilla "friends" and some stuff to our family "friends" and stuff to our LS "friends". I don't think the definition of a friend is so narrow that it requires 100% divulging of any and all information at all times to every person.

 

I don't either. I have friends I don't talk to about sex. I have friends I don't talk to about paying my bills, or about politics or about religion. However, if I ever felt that they would cease to be my friends just because I did tell them my politics, religion, financial situation or sexuality, I would not consider them to be my friends after all. They would just be people I know. Maybe I have a narrow definition of friends, but it works for me.

 

Do we share this part of our lives with them or not?

 

Only you can answer that... and you probably already have.

 

For whatever little it's worth, my philosophy is that we all make the decision we want to make in a faction of a second, before the thought even becomes words. We can then spend seconds, or hours, or days, arguing with ourselves about the decision we already made... coming up with reasons why it's a terrible idea, no it's a great idea, no it would be a disaster, etc. But the truth is, we already made the decision, there in the first moment. So, my philosophy (for what little it's worth), is to trust myself.

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My husband's friend became distant almost immediately. We have tried to sustain the friendship, but it is gone (this is someone who talked about sex all the time, not a prude).

 

...I'm very sad about it, and I feel part of the loss is due to them knowing our secret.

 

Thanks for sharing those two stories! A quick follow-up: How much detail did you get into? Was it just, "Ya, we're swingers" and that's it, or were there details involved... and does it matter one way or another?

 

As for telling them, you really know better than we do how that will go. Mrs two4you has a friend that she has been close with for over 40 years. She knows this friend wouldn't be able to handle knowledge about this very small part of her life, so she doesn't tell her. She's not going to risk changing a life long friendship, nor is she going to throw away that same friendship because she can't tell her.

 

Ya, that's the main reason why we haven't said anything to them and hid it for over 2 years! We used to have the most open and honest conversations with them, but we've worried that telling them about this would kill the relationship or make it very awkward.

 

Well, here's where we are at right now:

 

We're pretty sure they STRONGLY suspect we are swingers. When they asked, we did a HORRIBLE job trying to cover up since we were taken totally by surprise. Their Mrs. even said, "Well, Mrs. NYF is grinning from ear-to-ear and you're being very quiet, so....."

 

In our opinion, they probably already "know" we are without full confirmation. Well, we've been talking to them online since that happened, and everything is as though there are no changes in our relationship. We've been talking with them about hanging out again and they seem anxious to do so. That being the case, we figure either:

 

1) They "know" we are swingers and are curious about it and are fine with knowing more.

2) They "know" we are swingers but don't want to think about it and don't want to talk about it, but still want to be friends

3) They don't think we are swingers and may ask about it or may not.

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Just remember, there may be some excitement on their part about MAYBE finding out a secret about their really good friends, and a curiosity about what swinging really is. But as we all know, there can be a huge difference between fantasy and reality.

 

Considering the pros and cons and collective experiences here, it seems that you have WAY more to lose than to gain. My advice is to not tell them. If you happen to bump into them at a LS club, think of the great laugh you will have. Otherwise, the cost can be way too high.

 

However, I think you are going to let them know anyway. My advice, when you do tell them, don't be 100% transparent, don't go into detail. Play it off light, the strip club thing, sexy parties, flirting. If you SLOOOWLY let out information over the course of months, and only in response to prodding before you change the subject, you will be able to gauge their reaction over time.

 

You know they can handle information about strip clubs and sexy parties. The next steps: flirting, mild exhibition, voyeurism, exhibition, soft swap, soft swap girl/girl, threesome, etc. There are months of conversations in those categories. Also, there is a lot of acceptance in the range of acceptance up to full swap 16 person random orgy.

 

The point being, if you come out and jump to the hot, steamy details, there is no turning back, and you might not ever see them again. But if you start slowly (and by slowly I mean over time, months even), you should know when you are giving them getting to too much to handle, and stop there. If they stat to squirm when you say, we went to a LS club because Ms NYF always wanted to dance on a pole, then the line should be clear in your mind that you should not disclose any further. If they say, oh, we want to go and try that, then you can take them for a social night and see how they respond. An so on.

 

I don't see disclosure as an all or nothing thing. Just remember, what you do disclose, you can never take back.

 

One final warning. I am in a profession where all I see everyday are things that started with the greatest of intentions, that ended up HORRIBLE. Think divorce. Most people go into marriage thinking it will be the best thing in the world, yet 50% of marriages fail, and some bitterly. Presumably, these friends know your other friends, your coworkers, and maybe your family. If things ever went WAY south in your relationship, would you really want them armed with that information? If you find out that one of them has the hits for one of you, do you want to be the cause of marital strife in their lives?

 

Yes, my perspective is colored by my current and former profession. But regardless of perspective, these old sayings ring true:

 

Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. – Benjamin Franklin

 

When a secret is revealed, it is the fault of the man who confided it. – Jean de La Bruyère

 

A secret remains a secret until you make someone promise never to reveal it. – Fausto Cercignani

 

How can we expect another to keep our secret if we cannot keep it ourselves. – François de La Rochefoucauld

 

To keep your own secrets is wisdom; but to expect others to keep them is folly. – William Scott Downey

 

Who knows, maybe they are a perfect couple to tell, and everything will work out great. Maybe not, and this will end your friendship.

 

But the real question to ask is, what do you have to gain? Really? Do you think it will make you more interesting to them? (I would offer that having this little mystery makes you more interesting).

 

Do you hope they will be so enthralled with the idea that they will want to swing with you? If that is the case, search for the threads on swinging with friends...that is a whole other story.

 

So, dig deep and ask yourself, why do you REALLY, REALLY, WANT to tell them? Therein lies your answer.

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Wow SoFlaCouple, thanks for all that! You really nailed every comment!

 

:applause:

 

there may be some excitement on their part about MAYBE finding out a secret about their really good friends, and a curiosity about what swinging really is. But as we all know, there can be a huge difference between fantasy and reality.

 

You articulated that WAY better than I could, and that's exactly my thougtht! I think they are curious, but that's totally different from knowing it's the reality!

 

Otherwise, the cost can be way too high.

 

Ugh, you're probably spot on. The Mrs. and I just talked about this and we decided we're definitely not going to volunteer it. We're also going to work hard not to do things to tempt them to ask / talk about it... like, "Oh and we had so much fun going to dinner with this couple last weekend!"

 

My advice, when you do tell them, don't be 100% transparent, don't go into detail. Play it off light, the strip club thing, sexy parties, flirting. If you SLOOOWLY let out information over the course of months, and only in response to prodding before you change the subject, you will be able to gauge their reaction over time.

 

Great point! We're not going to initiate telling them or talking about it, but if they keep pushing, we may slowly disceminate light info and gauge from there the direction of future discussions.

 

I don't see disclosure as an all or nothing thing. Just remember, what you do disclose, you can never take back.

 

Yup, totally agree! Once that crazy cat's out of the bag, it's hard (impossible) to ever get it back in.

 

Presumably, these friends know your other friends, your coworkers, and maybe your family. If things ever went WAY south in your relationship, would you really want them armed with that information?

 

Again, great point! I've thought about this with other people (I tend to be very cautious and risk-adverse) but I think of everyone, they are the least inclined to "go postal". That said, I'm definitely not saying it couldn't happen.

 

But the real question to ask is, what do you have to gain? Really?

 

Yup, perfect questions! Being as calculating as I am and how I approach most decisions (i.e., decisoin trees, probability nodes, etc.) you'd think I would have done that here. It's obvious this is a very emotional decision, which makes it even more clear that we shouldn't take the risk, especially with practically zero ROI.

 

Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. – Benjamin Franklin

 

When a secret is revealed, it is the fault of the man who confided it. – Jean de La Bruyère

 

A secret remains a secret until you make someone promise never to reveal it. – Fausto Cercignani

 

How can we expect another to keep our secret if we cannot keep it ourselves. – François de La Rochefoucauld

 

To keep your own secrets is wisdom; but to expect others to keep them is folly. – William Scott Downey

 

Brilliant quotes! It reminds me of the "parable of the feathers" (which is more about spreading rumors, but is related here)... basically: It's really easy to spread feathers all over an area, but impossible to later, after the wind has blown them around, recover them all back. So it is with sharing this kind of info. It's easy to do, but impossible to completely undo.

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Sounds like you pretty much outed yourselves. :) Now it's just a matter of how much detail you want to go into. I confided in a good friend about our escapades and she was very good about it. She and her husband are vanilla freaks, and by freaks I mean she gets antsy if she doesn't get laid at least once a day. They're a naturally adventurous couple but they found out the hard way that they weren't swingers. It was an epic disaster. She had (and still has) trouble understanding the concept of giving up being "special" or the one-and-only when you give up monogamy. I tried explaining it, but we don't even share the same vocabulary. Now, do I regret telling her? Not in the slightest. It's cool to have someone to talk to about it. She and I just agree to disagree about certain concepts, much as you would when you like classical and she likes hip hop. It's about that big a deal.

 

I think you would just have to gauge your friends' reactions and share according to your mutual comfort level. You would also need to ask yourselves if you could ever see them being petty if they got pissed off with you, or if they like to gossip. If they're REALLY curious, you may need to be a little cautious for them and not get them too wound up about it. I was enthusiastic about our lifestyle and my friend and her husband ran with it. Right into a brick wall.

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Hmm... interesting points!

 

Fortunately they aren't the dramatic type and they have been very great friends over the years.

 

You bring up good points about having someone to talk to. I'd love to have someone besides other swingers to talk to about this stuff. While swingers understand, there's no "WOW" factor or "That's so awesome, tell me all about it!!!"

 

Ya, we think they pretty much "know" we are swingers. They just messaged us about getting together tomorrow night... our first time hanging out after "the incident" where they asked us and we did a terrible job with our response. So, we'll see how it goes!

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When we told our friends it was very general and not graphic. We keep the descriptions tame. It doesn't matter in my opinion, non-monogamy, besides being fascinating and a thrill to hear about, can be very threatening.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that my friend brags to her other friends that she knows swingers (and probably spills the beans if prodded)... I don't really care, but if I did that could be a real problem.

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As time progresses, experiences pile up, being a swinger becomes less of an issue for the swinger. That feeling may cause one to feel like it's not a big deal to divulge this to friends that ask. The difference between coming out. as say...A NASCAR fan and a swinger is how it affects the relationship from that point. This is sex, this is taboo, sexual hangups are the American way. As a sexually open man, I live a VERY straight life. Coming out to anyone, even if they were to ask is out of the question. It works. I have been described as 'the straightest man I know', more than once. I like it that way.

 

Friendship is very conditional. Friendships are built on what one knows about the other. That can flip like a light switch. Seen it all too many times. Sometimes the skeletons are just fine where they are.

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Now on a personal note-

When SSH and I first started out I was terrified for anyone to find out. Now, not so much. My biggest problem with "coming out" is feeling like I would have to defend my choices to others. Not because I wouldn't be willing to but more because I just don't want the aggravation.

 

Completely agree with this. I don't really care if people dislike me because of lifestyle choices. It's the judgement, gossip, and misinformation that I just don't want to have to deal with.

 

Sex is the issue that people most want to judge others about. And when it's something outside their experience, people project their own values and fill in the blanks with whatever they can think of to make themselves feel superior. Dealing with such people is just not worth my time or effort.

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As time progresses, experiences pile up, being a swinger becomes less of an issue for the swinger. That feeling may cause one to feel like it's not a big deal to divulge this to friends that ask.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking about this morning, almost word for word. It does become routine for us, even more so when you participate on this board, because we talk without sensationalizing it. So, what isn't a big deal to us remains a very, very big deal to most.

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As time progresses, experiences pile up, being a swinger becomes less of an issue for the swinger. That feeling may cause one to feel like it's not a big deal to divulge this to friends that ask.

 

Wow, this is EXACTLY what I've said to my wife too! Our perception of swinging and it being more "normal" is altering how we perceive others and changes the context of our thoughts. We subconsciously and improperly start projecting our comfort with swinging onto others... not knowing that they are still light-years behind, and feel like they'll not be as surprised / judgey as they probably will be.

 

So, this weekend:

On the drive, we talked about our game plan. We went from "No matter what, we aren't going to say ANYTHING, even if they ask!" to "Well, if they anxiously prod and it seems they are comfortable, we'll gently let out some small bits of info and see how they respond."

 

Well, other than a few comments from them like, "I see your getting texts... so, who's waiting on you guys?" and other comments like that, they didn't ask a single question! I was actually very surprised they didn't and secretly wanted them to... but I was good and didn't encourage them to ask questions."

 

So, things seem super cool with them. They may still ask in the future, but maybe not.

 

The big question in our minds right now: What do they think? We all but outed ourselves a few weeks ago. Are they suppressing it? Are they thinking about it, but waiting for us to say something? I'm thinking it's the latter. I'd bet that they (as good friends) are thinking, "Hey, we pushed them on the swinger thing and they seemed uncomfortable, so we won't bring it up or talk about it until they are comfortable and bring it up."

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From the limited info and my overactive sexual imagination, it sounds like they know and are pretty comfortable with it. Why would they make a comment about the texting unless they were interested in starting a dialogue. They have probably talked about it, and noted that you guys were slightly freaked out about talking about it. They want to talk about it with you but don't want to make you uncomfortable. I'd say just stop the tiptoeing and let it out there. Both couples are nervous for different reasons. I think a discussion starting like "Look, you guys seem pretty open minded and have commented on your curiosity about swinging. Let me tell you a story....."

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I'd bet that they (as good friends) are thinking, "Hey, we pushed them on the swinger thing and they seemed uncomfortable, so we won't bring it up or talk about it until they are comfortable and bring it up."

 

Perfect. You two slipped up, accidentally spilled some beans, and it didn't screw up your friendship. Maybe their definition of swingers are people that go to stop clubs, sexy parties, text, and flirt, but don't actually have sex with others...I mean, that's soooo 70's. Does anybody actually do that anymore? ;-). Maybe they think it means an all out orgy. Who knows. Frankly, you don't know what they think.

 

But whatever they think, suspect, or "know", they are obviously comfortable with whatever it is. That is a gift, leave it alone.

 

You dodged a bullet...now drop it and don't reload the gun...you might not be as lucky next time.

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I think that you're right, they are waiting to see if you'll bring it back up. Sounds like they really are good friends giving you an out...sounds like the next step is up to you two. Let us know what happens...

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UGH!!!

 

Love you guys, but it feels like the Devil in one ear: "DO IT!" and the Angel in the other, "DON'T DO IT!"

 

hahaha

 

 

I think we're leaning toward not saying anything unless they start asking again... which I assume they (especially she) will do since they've seemed very curious. Also, I think it will be hard for us to completely hide our interest in them knowing... which may just mean subconscious queues.

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Unless you intend to play with them I would suggest keeping your "private" time to yourselves. I made the mistake years ago telling some friends that my wife and I were into swinging and while we knew to keep our mouths shut some of them were blabber mouths and we actually ended up having to take our fun times even more underground. It totally sucked!!!

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While in a perfect world it might be fun to play with them, there's a snowball's chance in hell in this real-world that we would. It's just not worth the risk to the friendship, drama, etc.

 

So, that being the case, we don't have a ton of incentive to tell them and a lot of potential reasons not to. With that said, we have pretty much 100% confidence that they wouldn't tell anybody... we all have a ton of secrets over the past 15 years that haven't been told to know we can trust them. :)

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I still wouldn't say anything. Commenting on your texting may just be a nice way of saying, "It's rude to text other friends when you are with us." turn your text notifications off when you are with them.

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In this forum of more or less like-minded individuals it's easy to lose sight of how deeply disturbing the thought of how we conduct our sex lives can be to others who don't share our attitudes and values.

 

As earlier posters have noted, the result of coming out to vanilla friends, no matter how close to us they are, most often alters the friendship. And not in a positive way. Most of us would like to be able to be more open and honest about how we express our sexuality with others, most particularly those closest to us. But the price of doing so is most often estrangement, to lesser or greater degree.

 

And I think it's naive to think that in cases where we are candid about our participation in the lifestyle, that our vanilla friends will necessarily respect our shared confidence and not hint about it to others or even out us to others in the vanilla community, perhaps not out of malice but after one drink too many. (In the post that started this thread, I had to wonder if one of the poster's friends in the lifestyle who was a mutual friend might not have dropped a hint. It wouldn't be the first time that had happened.)

 

And let's face it, being asked to be custodians of this knowledge conveys a certain burden on the vanilla friends with whom we share thus, the burden of maintaining our little secret.

 

Other than the friends I play with, my wife is the only person with whom I'm open about my lifestyle participation. This is something even my very dear vanilla friends simply don't need to know.

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I have to echo what PeterJ said. I really do wish I could just be myself and be...OUT there with it, y'know? But the thing is, it doesn't matter how proud I am to be a swinger, it still comes down to whether or not those in whom we confide are able to absorb what we're saying without getting weirded out. The problem is, they simply do NOT have it in their vocabulary to understand. These concepts are so completely alien to everything they've come to believe about love and sex that they simply can not understand it. It's like trying to explain colour to someone who was born colour blind. My best friend is a total freak...but she's a bisexual-and-otherwise-monogamous freak. She has dabbled with swinging, but discovered that she's actually more poly than swinger. She doesn't understand the idea of sex without love. How do you explain that to someone?

 

Now she's a very understanding person, very accepting, so I didn't have a problem telling her. She appreciated my honesty above anything else. But I do have other friends whom I know I can't ever tell. It doesn't make them less of a friend; it just means there's only so much they can absorb. This is something that would make their minds explode. There is no need to feel dishonest if you choose not to tell them. It's just you being considerate of their (anticipated) feelings. That point might be argued by some, saying we shouldn't police others by taking away their right to know who they are associated with. But the thing is, they know who they are associated with already, which is you. Swinging is just a part of who you are, and doesn't change the people they got to know. The only thing that will change is how they see you. If they don't get it, that may not be a good thing.

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