Jump to content
Lionheart72

Lies, cheating, and responsibility

Recommended Posts

In another thread, sunbuckus brought up the following interesting point. Rather than derail that thread with a response unrelated to the original topic, I thought I'd start up a new one...

 

...but we often forget that others have the same trust and respect as our own relationship. Others might say they do separate play but they are really cheating.

 

Ok, so someone tells me they are swingers who are OK with separate play but they are lying. Is that my moral responsibility? Am I at fault because I was lied to? Personally, I don't think so and I'll give you a personal, real life example...

 

Some years ago now, my wife cheated on me. She was alone at a weekend event and she hooked up with a guy she knew there. I don't hold the guy at fault. She didn't say to him: "Help me cheat on my husband." She pretty much just said: "Let's fuck." My wife is hot. He'd wanted her for ages. He had no reason to believe that she didn't have my permission to do what she was doing (it was that kind of an event). So, he jumped at his chance. I don't fault him for it. (I fault him for being a useless, stoner idiot, but I did that before he fucked her so it's not a consequence.)

 

I am not morally responsible for someone else's bad acts. If I am acting in good faith and within the moral context of the situation, and I reasonably believe that the other parties involved are doing the same, than I am not responsible if they are not.

 

I look forward to hearing other points thoughts on this...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I would say your moral responsibility is towards your partner and her alone and likewise for her. Anyone can say anything nowadays. And it is your moral responsibility to verify. Both for safety sake and privacy concerns for you and your wife. How do you define separate play? Despite the couple’s arrangements to allow each other to play alone, they are still a couple. Going out of your way to speak with both members of the pair and not just one makes sense. Both deserve to receive your respect. And likewise for your wife. Since she has cheated on you I would at least verify where did rules got broken. It's your responsibility to know and set the rules I guess. Hall Pass doesn’t equate to Free Pass. And cheating is demeaning any way you look at it. Both for the trust and the relationship between a couple.

Share this post


Link to post

If they're lying to their spouse, then they have to be deliberately lying to you to make it work. And you'll never know the truth unless you independently verify it. Maybe that doesn't bother some people, but for my own ideologies, I don't want to be manipulated in such an easily avoidable way.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Guest sandraandalex

Okay, how can she cheat on you if she was at "that kind of an event"? I'm assuming it was a swing environment? That would be like someone eating at a buffet. Eating is what you do at a buffet. If she was at a swing party, you were expecting her not to fuck? Just curious. Was she there without your knowledge?

Share this post


Link to post
If she was at a swing party, you were expecting her not to fuck ? Just curious.

 

It's possible. If there was an understanding that she was only supposed to be there to dance, flirt, hang out with a mutual friend, etc. but their rule was no fucking (AKA no penises in orifices), and she did it anyway she broke their rule.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I wanted to wait a bit before responding to this post because I know how I feel about it but I wanted to give my brain time to try to organize my thoughts about it. So, let's hope it worked. :)

 

First of all, for anyone who has been around the forum for the past two years and seen my posts, I occasionally write about how Mr. Sun and I both cheated on each other several years prior to even thinking about swinging. So, I know what it's like to be cheated on as well as doing the cheating. It's never really clear cut, let's get that straight and I always try not to vilify cheaters because we don't know what personal issues lead up to their cheating. Second, since I have been cheated on, I know how much it hurts to find out your spouse has cheated on you. It's like an emotional knife stabbing your heart every time you think about it. Even years later, after I've forgiven Mr. Sun, we've worked through the issues and distrust...just thinking about how I found out still bring a visceral reaction within me. So, I wouldn't ever wish for anyone to ever feel that way. With that alone, even if it's not our "responsibility" or "our fault" that someone else is cheating on their spouse, providing the means for them to do it makes my stomach turn. Knowing that we can at least make sure that we don't consciously be a part of the cheating is what drives my thought process in verifying with the other spouse.

 

An analogy that works for me...what if we consider a situation where a friend asked to borrow a knife. Would we let them borrow it without even casually asking what they were planning on doing with it? Why couldn't they use one of their own or go to the store and buy one? Let's say they lie and say they are going to just use it to cut some vegetables and will return it when they are done. In actuality, they use it to kill their partner. They clean it, then return it to you, and you're none the wiser. Detectives come to the conclusion that none of the knives at the residence fit the stab wounds but you hear this on the news and start to have a a dreadful feeling about that knife you let them borrow. You didn't commit the crime. You didn't give them the intent. But if I were in that situation, I would feel guilty as hell about providing the murder weapon. I would go through all of the "I should have..." scenarios like asking why they couldn't use their own knives or buying a new set if their set was broken. What could I have done to make sure I wasn't involved in the death of another person?

 

Same thing for cheating. What could/can I do to make sure we aren't a part of a situation that causes someone else pain, even if it is indirectly.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

What could I have done to make sure I wasn't involved in the death of another person?

 

I once overheard an interesting bit of break-room philosophy: One of my former coworkers had a theory called the "modern original sin." The clothes we wear were almost certainly manufactured in sweatshops by people earning slave wages in deplorable, even dangerous, conditions. The fuel in the cars we drive is almost certainly paid for the in blood of soldiers and innocents, killed in endless Middle Eastern wars. Our cell phones or tablets were assembled by near-slaves working in horrific conditions. The lithium in the batteries that powers those devices comes largely from Afghanistan, in case you were wondering why so many soldiers and innocents have been dying there. The meat we eat was likely raised and slaughtered in conditions that would cause outrage or tears in anyone with the slightest empathy for other living things. The grains and cereals we eat are the products of rapacious corporations squeezing farmers and systematically destroying the environment. In short, almost every single aspect of our comfortable modern life is ultimately built on a foundation of someone else's pain and suffering, the product of greed and cruelty. We turn a blind eye to these facts because the alternatives, either actively accepting our part these horrors or giving up our comforts, are equally unbearable to us.

 

When I heard the theory above, I was horrified, outraged and guilty. By the end of lunch break, hour later, I turned a blind eye to it again because it was the only way I could get through my day. My clothes were made in sweatshops. I drive. I have a cell phone. I live in the comfortable modern world. My inner idealist has bouts of longing to give it all up, go "back the nature" and turn my back on the sins of the modern world... as long as I could still have my wifi.

 

Certain Buddhist monks are said to walk, sweeping the path ahead with a broom so as to not harm an insect by stepping on it. This begs the question what sort of harm might the broom do.

 

If I give a man a knife honestly believing he means to cut vegetables, and he kills someone with it, he is to blame, not I. Those were his choices, his actions, not mine. I would feel no guilt for giving the man the knife. Neither would I feel any guilt for turning the murder weapon over to the police and testifying against my so called friend.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Guest sandraandalex

You're going off the reservation a bit here. Perhaps you are too close to the concern ?

Share this post


Link to post
You're going off the reservation a bit here.

 

No, I'm not. I'm carrying the argument to it's logical conclusion. If I feel guilty for my role in other people's wrongdoing, then don't I need to look at all the wrongdoing I have a role in?

Share this post


Link to post

Yes, it is logical. And I would say that there's more than one way to respond to new knowledge like that. You can react in the fashion that you reacted--turning a blind eye. But you could also consider in what way, even if it's small, to lessen your role in that "wrong doing". In your example, you can keep the cell phone you have but refuse to buy a new, updated version which would continue the cycle. You can do more research on where to purchase clothing that doesn't involve sweatshops. You can drive less or consider a hybrid or a completely electric vehicle. You can seek out farms that treat their animals well and don't go to a factory farm or change your eating habits to be more vegetarian or vegan. There's more than one way to respond.

 

Arguing the "logical" route is helpful but we're also not computers. We're fallible human beings who have a limited amount of time and are more worried about our own little lives. Many people don't think about the whole world and its issues...nor can we. We simply can't process that much information so we do what we can and focus on what we feel we can change. If we have children, we can influence them to be more mindful of others. Be more caring, empathetic, and loving. If we have a business, seek out like-minded companies to do business with that care about helping our society to be more sustainable. Do you have an inner activist? Go out and inform others. Be a strong voice for the cause. Philanthropist? Donate your time and/or money to the cause that pulls most at you. Religious? Pray.

 

So, should we have also turned a blind eye to slavery, women's rights, and every other issue that has been and will be to come that involves someone being oppressed or mistreated just because we're comfortable in where we are in life and we don't want it to change? Ignorance is bliss, isn't?

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

You are morally responsible for yourself and it ends there. In the third world where (slave labor makes your clothes) those jobs are coveted. It is a cycle that will produce better lives for people in the end. You see the good news is that they are dividing up the labor. They no longer have to make their food and work... they can work and earn food that some one else grows. It is freeing them from that burden.

 

I read a story about a monk that took a American woman on a tour of a Asian country. The American woman became more and more upset upon looking at the conditions of women on the trip. The women were treated as property. They had no say in the community, could not vote or own property, etc. She finally confronted the monk about this and he said if women lives a good life in this life they could come back in the next life as a man.

 

You see there is no such thing as original sin. It was a myth made up to create fear in us that what we do is lacking in something and therefore brings shame on what we say do and think. Altering our minds to do something someone else thinks we should do so they can feel ok about themselves, i.e. if my wife cheats on me I will feel bad about myself. I am less of a man and others will think less of me because I am not good enough for her at home. Maybe I do not make enough money to keep her. My dick is too small, I come to fast. Man that starts some unwanted thoughts. Things in relationships change. We are not the same people who got married 20 years ago. If my wife wants to have sex with another man or leave me I am ok with it. I love her and myself that much. If there is so much miscommunication and dishonesty going on a man might want to consider why he is in that relationship. Hell a man might want to be in a relationship that is based in that.

 

The good news is that there really is no moral high ground. Just levels of communication. communication is skill that needs to be cultivated. Couples can practice and get stronger at it. Once I hit the point of tired of being fearful of not getting what I want and calm enough to see how I want to be I can ask others how to get there. It all goes back to setting goals for yourself.

 

Are we willing to let go of fears of not getting what we want and actually getting what we desire.

 

I desire a big fat steak while wearing a cheap shirt that makes me look good. HA

Share this post


Link to post

intuition897, fantastic reply. Thank you. I confess, I've been pushing my theory a little harder than I might otherwise in hopes of eliciting some strong, well thought out responses. Really, I never should have expected anything but strong, well thought out responses from you folks. :)

 

Now, bringing this back around, I have a question based on intuition897's wonderful reply: How do you balance your position with having casual, no-strings attached sex with strangers. More specifically, let's consider my typical swinging scenario... my wife and I go to our local swingers club, we meet a single male or a couple, we all like the look of each other and so we have sex. We've never met these people before and likely never will again. We likely don't know them beyond first names. We have no practical way of knowing if the single man is actually single or if the couple is actually a couple, beyond accepting them at their word. What then are we supposed to do? Give up swinging entirely? Redefine our swinging so that we aren't having casual, no-strings attached sex with strangers? At what point then does it cease to be swinging and become cross that blurry border into polyamory?

 

See, I agree with intuition897... I don't condone cheating and I don't have any use for dishonesty. So, these are honest questions, and I am interested in people's replies.

Share this post


Link to post

"...I fault him for being a useless, stoner idiot..." That says it all right there. You had known this guy for years, yet what you think of him should be discussed with your wife, apparently disapproving, and she then should have had enough respect for you to not have fooled around with him.

Share this post


Link to post
"...I fault him for being a useless, stoner idiot..." That says it all right there. You had known this guy for years, yet what you think of him should be discussed with your wife, apparently disapproving, and she then should have had enough respect for you to not have fooled around with him.

 

To be fair, if only to myself, my wife was fully aware I didn't like the guy. She was actively trying to hurt me at the time. Interestingly, it backfired on her rather spectacularly. In fact the whole incident was one of the driving events which lead to our reconciliation and the forging of a much stronger bond of communication, honesty and trust between us. But that's another story.

Share this post


Link to post
intuition897, fantastic reply. Thank you. I confess, I've been pushing my theory a little harder than I might otherwise in hopes of eliciting some strong, well thought out responses. Really, I never should have expected anything but strong, well thought out responses from you folks. :)

 

Now, bringing this back around, I have a question based on intuition897's wonderful reply: How do you balance your position with having casual, no-strings attached sex with strangers. More specifically, let's consider my typical swinging scenario... my wife and I go to our local swingers club, we meet a single male or a couple, we all like the look of each other and so we have sex. We've never met these people before and likely never will again. We likely don't know them beyond first names. We have no practical way of knowing if the single man is actually single or if the couple is actually a couple, beyond accepting them at their word. What then are we supposed to do? Give up swinging entirely? Redefine our swinging so that we aren't having casual, no-strings attached sex with strangers? At what point then does it cease to be swinging and become cross that blurry border into polyamory?

 

See, I agree with intuition897... I don't condone cheating and I don't have any use for dishonesty. So, these are honest questions, and I am interested in people's replies.

 

Thanks for this, Lionheart. Truthfully, I was a little nervous to post it, so really, thank you.

 

Both parties play their part. If we feel satisfied that the people we play with are in a good place (maritally), we would play with them. This doesn't have to involve a polygraph and a background check; you get pretty good at sussing out the liars in a hurry. But if you find out the twats lied to you and are actually two cheaters pretending to be a married couple, then for us, that's up there with finding out they just knowingly gave you gonorrhea. Because we know how this would make us feel, we tend to avoid random encounters and group play where you have no idea who you're fucking; we like to get to know our partners a bit first (not that we know their last names!). I don't judge anyone for getting involved in random encounters if they enjoy it; the blame still lies squarely on the people doing the cheating, and they shouldn't be there. But cheaters, being what they are, feel no qualms whatsoever lying to whomever they need to to get what they want. If your comfort level allows you to play with that level of risk, that's up to you and again, no judgment. I just know it's outside our comfort zone.

 

You can't keep people from lying to you, and it's not your fault if they make you believe them - some people are extremely skilled liars. I just don't feel it's okay to turn a blind eye when your bullshit detector is going off. And it's definitely not okay (for us anyway) to get involved when they are being honest with you about their dishonesty.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
If we feel satisfied that the people we play with are in a good place (maritally), we would play with them. This doesn't have to involve a polygraph and a background check; you get pretty good at sussing out the liars in a hurry. But if you find out the twats lied to you and are actually two cheaters pretending to be a married couple, then for us....

 

^^This^^

 

Not quite to the level of gonorrhea, but we certainly wouldn't play with them again. We expect honesty from couples. If they are going to lie to their spouses and lie to us about being a couple or having the consent of their spouse, then how do we know they are telling the truth about being disease free?

 

We take that personally. Not the we will lose sleep over it personally, the "fuck you" we are moving on personally.

Share this post


Link to post

A couple years ago we met up for coffee with a supposed single male. He was wearing a wedding ring so I asked if he was married and if she knew of his playing. Yes to being married and GOD NO to her knowing. He went on to explain that we deserved the truth because without it there could not be any trust between us. We left shortly after that.

 

It still amazes me that people think a total stranger deserves more honesty than their spouse.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
A couple years ago we met up for coffee with a supposed single male. He was wearing a wedding ring so I asked if he was married and if she knew of his playing. Yes to being married and GOD NO to her knowing. He went on to explain that we deserved the truth because without it there could not be any trust between us. We left shortly after that.

It still amazes me that people think a total stranger deserves more honesty than their spouse.

 

What I still can't fathom is their confusion - and usually outrage - at being rejected and/or judged for their behaviour. What did they expect? Well, I guess they expected us, "of all people" to understand, to commiserate about being in a lousy marriage, and to be the last people to judge someone for cheating.

Share this post


Link to post

Some people just don't realize that cheating is cheating. It is most definitely not swinging. Still they try to pretend that it is.

Share this post


Link to post

Swinging is not an excuse for cheating. In all manners cheating anyone is disrespectful and swinging does not promote it. People who want to cheat will do so doesn't matter what LS they are into.

Share this post


Link to post
You can't keep people from lying to you, and it's not your fault if they make you believe them - some people are extremely skilled liars. I just don't feel it's okay to turn a blind eye when your bullshit detector is going off. And it's definitely not okay (for us anyway) to get involved when they are being honest with you about their dishonesty.

 

I agree with you 100% and this is what I've intended to say from the beginning. I'm not responsible for someone else's lies and misdeeds. I am responsible for my actions, and part of that responsibility is not knowing supporting another's lies and misdeeds.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Guest Ready2dewit

I've always thought that if someone doesn't care if they hurt their spouse, who is supposedly the most important person in their life (or sure ought to be), why would they give a shit about what they do or say to a virtual stranger? Steer clear of sociopaths, especially when they do you the favor of identifying themselves!

Share this post


Link to post

Lots of good thoughts, lots of terrific advice. I have been in business for many years, and one of my rules is that I don't deal with two kinds of folks--sorry, this is going to offend some: 1. Liars (and here I lump the con man, the sociopath and the one who pegs the "bull shit meter" referenced by Intuition). My reasoning is that they are just too good at their game for me. I am no match. 2. This is the one that will offend--the super religious. I have been cheated so many times by the person for whom "God is on my side" meaning I'm out in the cold.

 

In my life, I agree heartily with the idea that I am responsible for my own actions and for making sure they are ethical and moral. Remember, swinging presents unique challenges because it operates generally outside the normal, socially accepted customs regarding marriage and sexuality. That gives some the license to proceed with cheating and lying because, hey, swingers are already doing something not accepted by general society. We have to be extra careful.

 

As to the comments about "contemporary original sin" or whatever, I really like the phrase "going off the reservation." And I know that Lionheart was intentionally bumping the boundaries, but I will offer another view that was only mentioned above--we don't know all the facts about "slave labor," and "pollution" and such. Look up the effects and flaws in the Framingham Heart Study that changed the diet of a nation...based on terribly flawed evidence (feeding loads of cholesterol to rabbits that are, last I checked, vegetarians?) that pronounced results that were just flat wrong! I have never seen a lithium mine, but I understand I would not look at an electric car as anything good for the environment if I had. Think of the many times we have gone off on a morality bender to later find out that our initial verdict was wrong (remember, the press is apt to offer us a verdict before a verdict is appropriate). "Oh, excuse me." Like the UVa rape case.

 

I just reread this and conclude that most of this is "off the reservation." Sorry.

 

My conclusion is that I try to nurture healthy skepticism without crossing that line into cynicism. And in swinging, I'm going to defer to my wife because she has a much more finely tuned BS Meter than I have.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Ok, so someone tells me they are swingers who are OK with separate play but they are lying. Is that my moral responsibility? Am I at fault because I was lied to? Personally, I don't think so

 

I agree.

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...