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My mom knows we are swingers: How do we deal with being found out?

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Yesterday I got off the phone with my sobbing mother. She didn't say how she figured it out, but I'm guessing her access to my PC did the trick. One too many clicks on my internet browser back button, and the web history speaks for itself.

 

She tried to be clever & started the conversation by talking about the little girl who was kidnapped and murdered because "her parents were swingers." Then asked, "If you had the chance to choose that lifestyle, would you be willing to put your kids very lives at risk for your own selfish sexual gratification?"

 

It wasn't hard for me to see that she had

A - figured me/us out, and

B - made up her mind about what "those people' are like

 

She tried to say she was only concerned about the effect it would have on the children...then slipped up with a mention of how I was raised with "the teachings." Yes, she's religious. My bi-sexuality equals the eternal burning of my soul to her.

 

As far as her woe, "Won't someone think of the children"... Our adult time is separate from our family time. Our home is just that...a home. Right now the kids are preschoolers. They are focused on learning how to spell their own name and count to 100.

 

At the appropriate age, we'll begin talking with our kids about sex. We'll provide them with honest, accurate information about the different ways to express sexuality. We'll warn them about the dangers of STD's and educate them about how to protect themselves and their partner(s). All of this will be done without the use of fear, shame, or judgment.

 

While I don't expect others to agree with my chosen lifestyle...all I can be is me. As we began exploring the lifestyle we decided we wouldn't announce it to our friends/family because we know that the word swinger carries a negative connotation to most people. It would upset them and as a result put a strain on our relationship with them. At the same time we agreed that, were they to ask/find out, we wouldn't lie either. There are no negative consequences professionally, so we have the ability to be open about it.

 

That being said, my husband is a very private person. He feels very strongly that our sex life is not anyone else's business. Unless we choose to share it with them, We shouldn't have to discuss it, defend ourselves, or justify our choices.

 

Me? I'm more "Love it or leave it." I won't push my liberal views on sexuality on others, but if you are asking, don't think I'll sugar coat myself to try and fit in the socially and morally acceptable, hetero-monogamous box that you/God deem "good."

 

When I was 17 my mom searched my room and found my birth control pills. She packed everything I owned & threw me out, never to speak to me again (for about a year). She was convinced I'd be in the streets, doing drugs & paying for them with prostitution. A senior in high school and not able to legally obtain my own place to live, I stayed with a school friend for a couple of months until graduation. Then I was on my own.

 

I was cut off emotionally, socially, and financially from the sheltered Mormon community I was raised in. I attended junior college full time, worked two part time jobs (child labor laws preventing me from getting one full time), and lived in a seedy pay by the week motel where they didn't care that I was a minor as long as I paid the $125/week on time. In my own defiant way, I remained a "good" kid with "bad" morals. The days of being ashamed of my sexual desires are long over for me.

 

I would like to represent the lifestyle in a positive way and being prepared for the verbal assaults that are inevitably in my future will help me do this. I think its important for me to point out that we've only visited 3 on premise clubs since June of this year. I've heard people who've been in the lifestyle for over a year describe themselves as newbies, so what does that make us? Our experiences have all been so positive, but we are still finding our way.

 

What I want to know from the board is this:

What judgments can I expect to be thrown at me/us?

Has anyone else had this happen to them?

What will people ask me about?

How did/would you respond?

 

I'm not really looking for discussions about the kids, or whether or not I should have lied/covered it up. I didn't, it's out there, now how do I/we deal with it?

 

Here's what I'm expecting so far:

*accusations of defiling the sanctity of holy matrimony

*homosexuality is a sin

*sex with anyone besides your spouse IS cheating

*you're going to get AIDS & die, then you'll really be sorry

 

Please, add to my list and provide your answers/response.

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Isn't it the Mormons who espouse the practice of polygamy (but to the gratification of their menfolk, only)?

 

Sometimes we let our parents down, sometimes our parents let us down.

 

You will, no doubt, ocassionally let your children down and they will reciprocate.

 

It's all a question of from what perspective someone is coming from.

 

You might wish to point out that friendship is one of the greatest of gifts (dunno about you, but we are far closer friends to those within our, albeit small, lifestyle community than within our Vanilla circle - maybe it's a trust thing).

 

If you were not "swingers", she would probably not think twice that your sexual practises might have an adverse affect on her grandchildren. If you can somehow reassure her that this is not an issue, then she may well come to terms with it in time as she did with your sexuality at age 17 once the initial shock wore off.

 

Unfortunately there can be no guarantee, though as I well recall the reaction of my own mother, she too was a Mormon, when I first dated a "Lamenite" (black-skinned) girl.

 

She just couldn't reconcile herself to her faith's teachings (as follows):

 

"The God-fearing Nephites were "pure" (the word was only officially changed from "white" in 1981) and "delightsome." The idol-worshiping Lamanites received the "curse of blackness," turning their skin dark.

 

According to the Book of Mormon, by 385 AD the dark-skinned Lamanites had wiped out other Hebrews. The Mormon church called the victors "the principal ancestors of the American Indians." If the Lamanites returned to the church, their skin could once again become white".

 

Well, bully for that. Perhaps someone should mention this "fact" to Michael Jackson.

 

Sometimes we have to treat our parents in the same way that we treat our kids in that, whilst not agreeing with them or their actions, neither should we shut them out, but must always leave the door ajar for their hoped prodigal return.

 

Good luck.

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This is to clear up the Mormon representation here.

 

The Mormons haven't practised polygamy since the 1800's. It is not a part of their religion due to federal laws.

 

Lamanites are American Indians. They believe their used to be a curse on them. Also, the Mormons have a practise/policy/belief about black people (Canaanites). Which used to prior to 1978, limited their participation in the church.

 

Now for jdtpcouple:

 

Show your mom the message you have left here. It sounds like you spoke well. It's not her life, but your attempt to explain a little about yours. Then if she doesn't like it, no further discussion.

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It must be the fact we were raised in similar circumstances, but around paragraph 5 of your post I thought to myself, "God, her mother sounds just like mine would if she heard about my thoughts concerning the lifestyle, I wonder if she was raised Mormon?". What a lifestory you've told here. I wish I would have had your courage in my younger years.

 

I'm not sure I have much advice for you. I'm just barely poking at the surface of swinging. I know in my own life I would try to keep it a secret from my parents. There are things I do or have done that I know my parents wouldn't approve of, some they've found out about due to circumstances. My attitude has always been this is me now, if you want me in your life you need to accept it. They've yet to cut me off.

 

Much luck to you.

 

Ro (the male half)

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Ok let me help you out a bit in your approach.

 

Your questions are valid but only valid if you are dealing with a logical individual.

 

Your mother is not logical, she may well not even be completely sane. She threw you out of your house at 17 because you had birth control pills. First, I'm not even sure thats completely legal, you were a minor, second its most likely the dumbest thing you could do to someone who you are worried about 'going down the wrong path'.

 

Its got a lovely cruelty that would fit in well with the old testament but thats as far as I'd go making it any way holy.

 

This episode tells me you are not dealing with someone with a full deck. If you wanted to have fun with her, blame your swinging on that year she kicked you out and how you had to do 'things' to survive. Tell her you hope god forgives her for abandoning her child to the sodomites. :hahaha: Seriously, I'm sorry but what she did was fucked up.

 

So she spied and you and found out you were a swinger.

 

Well over all your questions are going to be meaningless. For someone who would kick out a 17 year old girl to the street, no logical argument, or scientific study on STD's is going to matter.

 

Good studies on swingers are rare because most good swingers don't participate in studies. While my feeling is swingers are on par to maybe even lower on the STD scale, you will be hard pressed to find real data. No one puts 'swinger' on their medical history if they care about being outed.

 

You may have to end up cutting off your mother on this one, and even with the little information you gave us I think it might be a good thing.

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To get back on-topic and try to answer some of the questions you said you wanted answered, rather than simply respond and offer comments &/or opinions regarding your situation:

 

What you can expect if/when you’re outed will very much depend upon who/what you are and who/what is the person that decided to throw anything at you at all.

 

Much negativity and narrow-mindedness and non-acceptance by some (you may even lose some friends – some valued, some not so). Many of these will be being genuine to themselves, but some may be closet-curious themselves or even downright intrigued, but afraid to admit it.

 

We all change throughout our lives in our opinions (especially with regard to sex) else no-one would ever break a marriage vow of fidelity – if said with sincerity.

 

Most non-gay males will go through at least a part of their puberty as homophobic (some maintain this attitude beyond puberty and some will subscribe to it unto the grave). A large number, however, will become tolerant of gays as they mature (particularly as they get to meet more gay males and females and share friendships with gay and non-gay folk alike). In some guys this Live-&-Let-Live attitude can morph into a Never-Say-Never philosophy that in turn can become curiosity and culminate in an actual unspoken desire to “Try-Before-You-Die” mentality. – Story of my (Bud’s) life. LOL.

 

The same can be said of “Swingers”. As we age, we go from disbelief (even disgust) to giggling to tolerance to nonchalance to curiosity to intrigue to “How on earth can I bring THIS subject up with my SO?”.

 

It depends who they are and at what stage of whatever cycle they happen to be on.

 

The worst case we know of, though, is a couple who were outed and ended up moving area (they lived in a pretty rough area where “Men are men and women are grateful” – you get the gist?). The poor chap involved had to put up with a daily barrage of men remarking that he was not man enough to satisfy his wife on his own and was often subjected to men saying stuff like “Can I bang your wife?...Why not?...Everyone else does…..What’s wrong with my dick, not good enough for her?”

 

Wholly intolerable, I think you’ll agree.

 

Any wonder we need tread careful?

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If your mom kicked you out of the house when you were 17 and expected you to suffer on the streets, then what right does she have to have any judgement whatsoever about the life you are currently leading? None, in my opinion. You are going to hell, right? I mean, she already decided that. Why is she snooping around the hellbound's computer? I'd ask her that.

 

Your question is what kind of a relationship do you want with her? If you want to have a truthful family relationship, I think she would have to be willing to go to therapy with you.

 

I am sorry I can't answer any of the questions you asked.

 

Bob

(certainly going to hell in a mormon world.)

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What I want to know from the board is this:

What judgments can I expect to be thrown at me/us?

Has anyone else had this happen to them?

What will people ask me about?

How did/would you respond?

 

I wouldn't let anyone throw judgements at me...I'd walk away. I live as I want, they are free to do the same. No discussions with judgements are worth having.

 

Somewhere there is a web site for christians who swing....anyone able to find that link?

 

It might help with your questions.

 

Good Luck.

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tribbles said:
I wouldn't let anyone throw judgements at me...I'd walk away. I live as I want, they are free to do the same. No discussions with judgements are worth having.

 

Somewhere there is a web site for christians who swing....anyone able to find that link?

 

It might help with your questions.

 

Good Luck.

 

I think http://www.libchrist.com/ is the website. Many here are Christian. Happily, some are of other faiths and some not subject to a spiritual faith at all.

 

Thank Buddha.

 

(SuAndBud - Buddhists - Not a faith, just a philosophy)

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I had this whole paragraph written about the effect on your kids but then I remembered this...

 

Quote
I'm not really looking for discussions about the kids, or whether or not I should have lied/covered it up. I didn't, it's out there, now how do I/we deal with it?

 

I applaud you for your attitude, especially after what you have been through. Your life so far is an uplifting success story and you should be proud of yourself. Don't let your Mother ruin that.

 

Just curious, is Mother telling the community about you?

 

Other than that, I couldn't agree more with Chicup, cassies and tribbles.

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I just wanted to say I'm sorry this happened to you. I haven't been through this, so I can't really answer your questions. But I wish you the best.

 

When I read your story, I felt myself becoming very angry. After my 2nd or 3rd reading, I am really impressed with how level headed your questions are in this situation.

 

Good Luck

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1. The mother went looking for trouble and found it.

2. She played the 'kid' card, which is always the bastion of people absent of understanding or context.

3. She has a very limited view and understanding of human sexuality.

 

Ultimately, you're not doing anything wrong, today. You weren't doing anything wrong when you were 17 and used birth control pills. You were taking charge of your sexual life. Taking that kind of control scares the hell out of some people.

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Thank you to everyone who replied, and for all your support. I greatly appreciate getting so many responses to my situation.

 

Chicup said:
Your questions are valid but only valid if you are dealing with a logical individual.

No kidding. I have learned over the years that my mom will initially respond with emotion. She feels that emotion, deals with it (eventually), then and only then can logic or reason be introduced. The people she'll talk to though...my step-dad, grandma, aunts...they'll be more likely to hear me when I speak in the language of "common sense."

 

BiloxiCouple said:
Show your mom the message you have left here. It sounds like you spoke well.

Thanks, I intend to repeat the part about teaching my kids about sex verbatim. Probably to someone who will be open to hearing me though.

 

SuAndBud said:
Sometimes we have to treat our parents in the same way that we treat our kids in that, whilst not agreeing with them or their actions, neither should we shut them out, but must always leave the door ajar for their hoped prodigal return.
roandronni said:
My attitude has always been this is me now, if you want me in your life you need to accept it.

This is the attitude I took at 17 also. I am, who I am, if you choose to be a part of my life...great! If not, I respect your decision to believe what you will and will gladly welcome you back should you find a way to reconcile your religious conflict.

 

SuAndBud said:
Many of these will be being genuine to themselves, but some may be closet-curious themselves or even downright intrigued, but afraid to admit it.

LOL. I just named 3 sets of vanilla friends that fit the 3 descriptions above. That's the reason we don't openly present our lifestyle to them. We know they won't get it & don't expect them to, but if they're asking...

 

tribbles said:
I wouldn't let anyone throw judgements at me...I'd walk away. I live as I want, they are free to do the same. No discussions with judgements are worth having.

I think this is true in theory, but in practice I would alienate friends who may not agree, but who won't necessarily walk away from the friendship either.

 

SuAndBud said:
You might wish to point out that friendship is one of the greatest of gifts

Golden, this is exactly what I was looking for. In the short time that we've been active in the lifestyle we've met two couples that I could realistically see having lasting friendships with. I would not have thought to make that point though, so I thank you for bringing it to my attention.

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I think this is true in theory, but in practice I would alienate friends who may not agree, but who won't necessarily walk away from the friendship either.

 

You call people who give you comments that are judgemental, that you don't ask for, friends?

(If you ask for it, you can't complain. But unasked for?)

 

mmmmm........

 

You can always be the one to walk away from friendships that are not healthy.

Only you can decide when they aren't healthy for you.

 

I have (and would do it again), walked away from people who I once considered friends, when it looked unhealthy for me emotionally and mentally, to stick around them.

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jdtpcouple said:

Here's what I'm expecting so far:

*accusations of defiling the sanctity of holy matrimony

*homosexuality is a sin

*sex with anyone besides your spouse IS cheating

*you're going to get AIDS & die, then you'll really be sorry

 

Please, add to my list and provide your answers/response.

 

I will answer your religious questions and give you a few more areas to do some research that will help you with your situation.

 

I’m not a religious person, being an atheist, but I do study religion and have read the bible extensively. In my business (a swingers club owner) I get contacted regularly by religious fanatics who try and preach to me about how my sinning ways will do me in. I end up coming back to them quoting their own book and they will all leave with their tails tucked between their legs.

 

I was also interviewed by a student who was doing a paper on Swinging and religion at a local Catholic University, a priest who taught the class annoted many of my quotes with “He’s right!” so hopefully I can shed some of this knowledge with you.

 

First of all, there a few good sites to give you some basic knowledge on swinging.

 

First, The result of the most recent online poll of swingers entitled Today’s Alternative Marriage Styles: The Case of Swingers http://www.ejhs.org/volume3/swing/body.htm

 

Swinging and Aids. The CDC (Center for Disease Control) does not even consider swingers as a source of infection or transmission of HIV/AIDS. I think the figures I saw put swingers infection rate at less than 1/10 of 1 percent… Unbelievably low.

 

Now for the religious parts….

 

Someone has already mentioned Dave’s Liberated Christians Site as a handy reference tool, I would as well. Visit his site here.

 

Homosexuality is no more a sin than is eating oysters and shrimp.

 

From Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

 

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

 

Leviticus 11:10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

11:11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcasses in abomination.

11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

 

So, if homosexuality is a sin (Or at least an abomination [a lesser sin?]) and you should be put to death for it, then so should those who eat crabs, oyster & shrimp….

 

But most religious people will say that the old testament doesn’t apply since Jesus’s new covenant. So what did Jesus say about Homosexuality? …………… Nothing! Not a thing! Zip!

 

Adultery….

 

Adultery as written about in the bible refers to men’s property. Women were considered someone else’s property. First their fathers, as he could sell her into sex slavery (Exodus 21:7-11) if he wishes, then her husbands. So committing adultery was the taking of another mans property. The big problem was not about sex but about heirs. If another man fathered a male son by another mans wife, that son could inherit the husbands property and that would not do at all.

 

Here is an interesting quote from someone who should know….

There is no more harm in adultery than in rubbing one's hands together.

-- Pope Boniface VIII, from Draper, Intellectual Development of Europe (vol. 2, p. 88)

 

But what is really interesting is the fact that Adultery may not be one of the ten commandments in the first place. In Exodus 20 The story of Moses on Mount Sinai has God giving Moses a stone tablet with the ten commandments written on them and, according to Moses (no one else could read), one is listed as “Thou shalt not commit adultery”. However, Moses, after coming back down the mountain with the two stone tablets with the commandments written on them saw the people dancing around a golden calf that Aaron had fashioned as a god to worship. So, in a fit of rage, Moses broke these stone tablets Exodus 32:19, and then God directed Moses to have all these people killed.

 

Later on, after all the bloodletting, God instructed Moses in Exodus 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou breakest.

 

Well when Moses went back up to the mount the next morning to retrieve these tablets the commandments that were inscribed on the new tablet did not include the one about adultery Exodus 34:11 – 28

 

Now about matrimonial vows, cheating, etc.…. First off, men were directed by God that they may take as many wives as they wished. (Genesis 4:19; Exodus 21:10) Or, sex slaves, concubines (Genesis 25:6; 1 Kings 11;,) whatever they wished as long as they did not take another mans property. They way I see it, I’m not taking another man’s property away from him as long as he knows about it… Cause she goes home with him at the end of the night.

 

As far as your vows, you are not breaking those, I am faithful to my wife, she knows whom I’m fucking and when…. Your not slipping around behind anyone’s back…

 

I know this is long winded but I hope it helps you with your problem.

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lovinher said:
Just curious, is Mother telling the community about you?

Well I haven't heard anything from anyone so far. I'm sure she'll tell my step-dad at the very least. Maybe her closest church friends or bishop. My dad may extend the info to grandma & aunt...So far its just my speculation.

 

gandm said:
When I read your story, I felt myself becoming very angry. After my 2nd or 3rd reading, I am really impressed with how level headed your questions are in this situation.

Thanks. I guess I have developed a well of patience for her emotional responses after growing up with it. I have the ability to hear the bait without taking it. I filter through the emotion and only provide informative logical responses. (Plus my dad's a salesman so I guess I learned some side stepping talk too)

 

Edison Carter said:
You were taking charge of your sexual life. Taking that kind of control scares the hell out of some people.

No kidding, I remember laughing at her when she told me I wanted to get pregnant to "make him stay." It's ridiculous, if I wanted to get pregnant, why was I on the pill?

 

As for current events, the same applies. The fact that I explore my sexuality with the knowledge and consent of my husband instead of taking the vanilla road & cheating is appalling to her. She wouldn't approve of cheating either...but she'd accept it over swinging any day. I just don't get that.

 

tribbles said:
You call people who give you comments that are judgemental, that you don't ask for, friends?

Sort of. I can name some vanilla friends who'd be frightened by the idea of swinging and lay in to me about it. That's the reason we'd like to keep them vanilla friends. Leaving religion & sex out of the conversation they are good people and fun friends to have....they wouldn't in a million years hold their tongue and say "to each his own" on this topic. Some of them, given the time and information, would be able to get past their fear, others wouldn't.

 

Tom & Bonnie said:
I end up coming back to them quoting their own book and they will all leave with their tails tucked between their legs.

I hear you on that. I used the principle of "free agency" with my mother.

 

For non LDS its the teaching that God wants us to "choose the right" but ultimately it is up to us to make our own choices and accept responsibility for them.

 

Thank you for all your quotes & research. I learned a lot just from your post. I can't wait to dig deeper into the information.

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I think at the end of the game, we're all going to be suprised at the company we're in, wherever we end up. ;) I know where I'm headed, but I don't think I'll lay any bets as to who I'll meet when I get there...or who'll be missing. That's just not up to me to decide. That is ultimately a very personal thing between God and the individual. I'll never understand the thought processes of people who feel they need to make the souls of others their personal business. They should have their hands full with their own.

 

Man, I soooo share your views on all of this! I totally understand what you're saying, that you are discrete because, knowing your friends'/relatives' views on sex and morality, others would misinterpret what you do. Telling them would be fine if you thought they would eventually understand, that it would improve their lot in life somehow, or if it served some sort of purpose other than mere self-satisfaction. I've written on here about how much I disagree with cheaters "protecting" spouses from the truth, and I can imagine they'd be confused with my statement about protecting others from the truth of our lifestyle because we feel they are unable to handle it. The difference is, I don't OWE family or friends any explanation of our sex life. It's none of their business. Besides, what we're doing is not harmful to them or to anyone else...even us. Cheaters can't tell because what they're doing is harmful and wrong, and even though their reasons for not disclosing their behaviour is purely SELF-centred (NOT to protect their spouse, but their own asses from the unpleasantness of acknowledging that they're lower than dogshit), their spouses are directly involved and are entitled to know. Not telling our families/friends isn't deceit. It's simply a matter of protecting our privacy.

 

The idea that your busy-body Mom would tell anyone really bothers me. The world needs its whistle-blowers, but not when the thing they're blowing their whistles about is NOT the world's business!! My policy on the matter is, if you don't have direct first-hand knowledge of a thing, you shouldn't hand down judgments on it. There's no shame in saying, "I don't know." Rather, one should be ashamed of spewing bullshit about a thing one knows nothing about. We all do it now and then - myself included - but it is definitely something to diligently avoid. Otherwise, you just label yourself an incompetent, blithering idiot.

 

I don't know about everyone else, but I like to believe that someday, when all we humans have finally extinguished our own race from existence (or when God deems fit), we'll shed the physical body and finally - FINALLY - know what it is to not be locked inside our own heads all alone. Where we won't have to phrase things a certain way or explain ourselves. Thoughts, feelings, impressions, concepts will all pass from one person to another in a Matrix-like "download" or sort of like a multi-sensory/dimensional "brain-fax". The human barriers come down and there will no longer be any misunderstandings. No misunderstandings = no conflict. The truth of things will be self-evident, and no one can hide it any longer...good or bad. That means all our misdeeds come to light, as well as every good turn you've ever done that went unnoticed. And the truth of why we do what we do will finally be understood. This is my hope.

 

Chicup, I expect you'll have fun with that last paragraph. ;)

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jdtpcouple said:
When I was 17 my mom searched my room and found my birth control pills. She packed everything I owned & threw me out, never to speak to me again (for about a year). She was convinced I'd be in the streets, doing drugs & paying for them with prostitution. A senior in high school and not able to legally obtain my own place to live, I stayed with a school friend for a couple of months until graduation. Then I was on my own.

 

This paragraph says a lot!

 

So, let me get this straight. She mentioned a (supposedly true) story about a child being killed "because" her parents "were swingers", while she was the one who, without even being swinger, but just because of her beliefs, leave you in a way more dangerous situation (while imagining one of the worst outcomes)?

 

This is outrageous. You mother OWES you BIG TIME, she already proven she doesn't meet the minimal moral requirements as to pretend to be on a higher ground than yourself.

 

My gut's reaction here would be cynical: "that's right, Mommy... do you remember when you throw me out to the streets, that you thought I was prostituting myself. Well, you was right, and that turned me into a swinger. I am swinging thanks to you, and blame on you if something ever happens to your grandchildren should something happens to them because I swing. This is a risk YOU bring tho them in the first place".

 

What I don't quite follow here, is how you still let her undermine your values and how you allow her the place to judge your life, after what she did to you.

 

I understand that, giving her (dubious but hard) moral standards, this may put you in a similar situation than the one when she discovered your pills: being afraid of being "abandoned" by her again. And of course, I understand the value of avoiding a confrontation here.

 

With all of this... why she was able to sneak in your computer? You may have profiles with passwords to preserve your privacy, or configure your browser to avoid keeping track of the history. I have this feeling that you set up your own trap, as to give her your head in a silver plate.

 

But, what's worth to point out here is, that she should have the same interests in avoiding a conflict able to set you both apart for good.

 

If she doesn't, then you're in a big problem, because whether you like it or not, you mother doesn't deserve all of those concerns nor to have a relationship with you: she would be acting like a caring mother, but wanting you to live her life.

 

But if she does, then you have all the tools at hand to turn the tables. You don't have anything to explain to her, you're a grown up woman, with your own values. It isn't her business whether you swing or not, and her evaluation for the risks your behavior (whatever it is) impose to YOUR children doesn't have ANY value, given the fact that she already proven not being able to evaluate the same sort of risks resulting for her own behavior as a mother with her daughter (you) when HER OWN CHOICES really matter.

 

She have two options here: to live with her doubts and fears about you, and accept this terms, or to attempt to judge your behavior and impose her ideas to you. Just that this time everything changed: you're the grown up woman, and she's the one who, sooner or later, will depend on you. It is her choice whether you take care of her, or if she prefers to live the last years of her life deprived from your and her grandchildren's presence.

 

I know this is pretty rough. But I want you to realize you have your own position of power from where to negotiate with her, bringing her to your own terrain during the battle.

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Although I'm not experienced enough to offer advice I do have a question. What's with the story about the little girl getting murdered because her parents were swingers...is that something your mother made up or is that something that actually happened? And if it did happen, what was it all about? Kinda freaks me out.

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likkit69 said:
What's with the story about the little girl getting murdered because her parents were swingers...is that something your mother made up or is that something that actually happened? And if it did happen, what was it all about?

 

I guess she pick it up from the TV show CSI. In any case, it sounds much like a hoax. A daughter of a swinger couple being murdered isn't against the statistics, but the "because" would be a BIG because. Let's avoid make echo of the irrational fears, please.

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Hi jdtp, like your husband, I'm of the mind that our sex life is nobody else's business. I'm not inclined to talk to them about our outside activities any more than I would talk to parents and neighbors about other sexual details about us. ;) It's none of their business, end of discussion.

 

Yesterday I got off the phone with my sobbing mother. She didn't say how she figured it out,but I'm guessing her access to my PC did the trick. One too many clicks on my internet browser back button, and the web history speaks for itself.

...

When I was 17 my mom searched my room and found my birth control pills. She packed everything I owned & threw me out, never to speak to me again (for about a year). She was convinced I'd be in the streets, doing drugs & paying for them with prostitution. A senior in high school and not able to legally obtain my own place to live, I stayed with a school friend for a couple of months until graduation. Then I was on my own.

 

I was cut off emotionally, socially, and financially from the sheltered Mormon community I was raised in. I attended junior college full time, worked two part time jobs (child labor laws preventing me from getting one full time), and lived in a seedy pay by the week motel where they didn't care that I was a minor as long as I paid the $125/week on time. In my own defiant way, I remained a "good" kid with "bad" morals. The days of being ashamed of my sexual desires are long over for me.

 

I wasn't Mormon, but I can relate to your background. While nobody found pills and kicked me out, I was raised with threats of being kicked out if I ever ____. (You could fill in the blanks with a number of things.) I won't bog this down with too much detail, but suffice it to say I relate to a lot of what you went through. I left home very early, supported myself, went to college at night, and took care of myself.

 

About parental relationships: I agree with what others have said about your mother, especially Serenieders. She has NO right to tell you anything, anymore. What she did was morally and probably legally wrong - throwing out a young teenage girl on the streets. What is she thinking, dissing you for anything you may choose to do? She threw you away a long time ago.

 

But, you seem to have kept her in your life. She was over at your house snooping around on your computer, so it seems that you have a relationship. In my case, I believed that my parents forfieted the right to a relationship with me and my daughter, based on how they treated me for the first 19 years of my life. I just didn't feel that I needed to be exposed to their crap any longer, didn't want to subject my nuclear family to their crap, either. So, I have distanced myself from them ever since. I maintain the driver's seat on how that goes. If I saw them and they started their antics (verbal abuse, manipulation, etc), I left. I never depended on them for anything again, so I was in a place to be able to get up and walk away. I figured that one day, they'd learn to change their ways with me, if they wanted to see me.

 

Your mother has a relationship with you and your children - probably a close one. Does she deserve it? Has she earned a place in your lives? Remember, she tossed you out, and she felt justified in doing it. She probably still feels justified. And she probably thinks she has a right to sit in judgment on you now, about your sex life. She has no rights with you, at all. She only has what you allow her to have. You have the power in this.

 

What I want to know from the board is this:

What judgments can I expect to be thrown at me/us?

Has anyone else had this happen to them?

What will people ask me about?

How did/would you respond?

 

You can expect all kinds of judgments to be thrown at you, as it's already happening. Throw them back!! Tell her that she put you out when you were still a child, and she has no right to tell anything. Tell her that your sex life is not her business, and that if she brings it up again, ___________. (You fill in the consequence.)

 

Consider this: do you want your children growing up exposed to the disrespectful way she treats you, and exposed to her morals? The closer you allow her to be in your lives, the more exposure they'll have to her twisted ways. The more you give her a voice in your life, the more this will be true.

 

Big hugs for you! I'll be thinking about you, and I hope you report back how this goes.

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I know this is closing the gate after the horse got out but I'd like to remind everyone of the buttons that delete the web site history, cache, and cookies. Kids are even more snoopy than parents. Protect them a bit by deleting the evidence before you log off. Keep your pix and contacts on a USB drive kept elsewhere, and don't use the feature where the operating system automatically enters your password. Do all your "interesting" communications on a password protected account to which only you and your spouse have the password. Don't leave any evidence on the computer than what you want your parents and kids to find.

 

Paranoid? Yeah. Kids will find anything you leave and even little kids may know more about the computer than most adults.

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Whats with the story about the little girl getting murdered because her parents were swingers...is that something your mother made up or is that something that actually happened?and if it did happen, what was it all about? kinda freaks me out.
Please remember that (to generalize) religion responds to sex by using fear and shame. Don't buy into that bullshit!

 

The man was their neighbor and had child pornography on his computer. He was a sick freak and his defense attorneys tried to get him off by blaming swinging.

 

Lets pretend he wasn't. Lets pretend as she (mom) implied, that the mother met him at a swing party, rejected him, and he followed her home, stole her daughter, raped, and killed her. My husband is good at the analogies so I'll let him speak here:

 

"Saying someone raped and killed a child because they are a swinger is like saying someone molests children because they are gay".

 

My husband had another jewel for me too when she asked if I thought the parents questioned their lifestyle choice after losing their daughter.

 

"This past Sun a man walked into a church and opened fire on the congregation. Does she think the church members question their lifestyle now that their friends/family are gone? If they hadn't gone to church, that wouldn't have happened to them right?"

 

So were these examples results of a lifestyle choice, or random encounters with truly insane individuals willing to take another human life?

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intuition897 said:
I'll never understand the thought processes of people who feel they need to make the souls of others their personal business. They should have their hands full with their own.

Amen to that! :)

 

sereneiders said:
I understand that, giving her (dubious but hard) moral standards, this may put you in a similar situation than the one when she discovered your pills: being afraid of being "abandoned" by her again.

Not so much. As a kid I could have forgone the struggles I had if I had "admitted" I was wrong and conformed to their values. I didn't then, I won't now.

 

Tybee Swing said:
But, you seem to have kept her in your life.

When it was all said and done it was her who came to me, she who had to accept me for who I am and present the request to rebuild the relationship. Thus far she's been able to reconcile what she believes with the things we didn't hide from her: The fact that we watch pornography, visit strip clubs, purchase sex toys etc. Up until now she hasn't tried to "change" me again, remembering I already proved I don't need her to survive.

 

Tybee Swing said:
Consider this: do you want your children growing up exposed to the disrespectful way she treats you, and exposed to her orals?

This may seem weird, and I know a lot of you will disagree here but the short answer is: yes.

 

Let me explain. In their lives they will encounter people like her, who think they know whats right and will try to impose their standards on them. They need to know that people will think they have a right to decide things for them. They need to know those people are full of shit and they should make their own decisions and accept responsibility for the consequences of their actions, good or bad. They need to see that its ok to stand up to for who they are. I learned early in life that my value as a person does not lie in whether or not someone else chooses to love me or be a part of my life. People will come, they will go, I am still great no matter what they choose to do. I want my children to learn this concept too and they will emulate what I do much more than what I say.

 

That being said, that does NOT by any way mean I'll allow her to become abusive to me further. Yes she had access to my PC, yes she abused that access. Maybe I take it too lightly but I sort of see it as opening the bathroom cabinet when you visit someone's home, or reading tabloid magazines. People have a fascination with finding out about others. Ultimately, she only harmed herself because she was the one who ended up crying and my husband and I have only become more convinced that we are making the absolute right choice for our marriage and happiness.

 

oncewere said:
I know this is closing the gate after the horse got out but I'd like to remind everyone of the buttons that delete the web site

history, cache, and cookies. Kids are even more snoopy than parents.

Still a valid point worth making though for the other horses who haven't "jumped the gun." Our PC is set up so that we have an adult windows profile and a kids one. (Window XP "switch users" function) So they have Spiderman as their background image and their web browser opens up to Sesame Workshop instead of our Gmail homepage. Recently though we purchased a laptop computer and in light of recent events we began discussing the option of only using the laptop for adult sites and "giving" the PC to the kids. We can password protect the laptop so even if they snoop in our room when they get old enough, they won't be able to access anything "good"

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Hi jdtp couple, I thought about you this afternoon several times. (Isn't it funny how affected you can be by people you don't even know?) It occurred to me that the two key times that your mother made huge judgments on you and wigged out on you, it was due to her being invasive, intrusive, and being disrespectful of your privacy. Both times, she went looking for trouble. It's as if she was looking for something to incriminate you with.

 

I'll bet that when you were 17, you didn't leave your pills laying around casually, because you knew the repercussions. I'll bet that your mother had to dig through your stuff to find those pills. Then, she reigned down hellfire and brimstone on you. Now, she went snooping into your computer (hitting the back button or whatever, seeing what you were up to). Now, she's throwing judgments at you once again. You're not sure who she'll tell or how far this will go (again, disrespectful of your privacy). These two events seem almost the same in this way: she went looking for trouble until she found it. It just feels like she takes some sort of delight in finding you guilty of something, and then making you pay.

 

This is what I meant earlier when I said something about considering allowing her to be very close to your children. It seems likely that she may eventually treat them the way that she has treated you. As a mom myself, the reason I keep a certain distance from my parents now is primarily to protect my daughter from getting even an ounce of the drama and *crap* that I had to be subjected to.

 

I respect what you're saying, though. It's your decision, and you sound like a very thoughtful woman (as well as an excellent mom). I just relate to you very strongly with the drama-queen, judgmental, and manipulative mother. Hugs!

:)

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You can't change your mother. You can only be yourself and be proud of the person you are. You have to live your life in a way that embraces who you are as a person and supports you. Many will criticize you for multiple reasons...but ultimately, the choices that you make drive who you are.

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cassies said:
(certainly going to hell in a mormon world.)

 

"...and loving it!" (done in my best Maxwell Smart voice)

 

Why wouldn't I want to go? Everyone I care about will be there.

 

Quote

 

This may seem weird, and I know a lot of you will disagree here but the short answer is: yes.

 

Let me explain. In their lives they will encounter people like her, who think they know whats right and will try to impose their standards on them. They need to know that people will think they have a right to decide things for them. They need to know those people are full of shit and they should make their own decisions and accept responsibility for the consequences of their actions, good or bad. They need to see that it is ok to stand up to for who they are.

 

That's an interesting and very brave stance. If you can put your mother's ravings into the proper context for them, then I think it could work very well.

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Why is everyone concentrating on the mother scenario (it's obvious from the original post that the OP already knows, in her heart, that she has to let her mother go and find her own way back and in her own time) when all the girl asked was what kind of crap might she expect to be thrown at her for being a "Swinger"?

 

Are you people here so intent on putting forward your own take on life and your anecdotes and personal experiences that you can't actually be bothered to read the question?

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This is to clear up the Mormon representation here.

 

The Mormons haven't practised polygamy since the 1800's. It is not a part of their religion due to federal laws.

 

Lamanites are American Indians. They believe their used to be a curse on them. Also, the Mormons have a practise/policy/belief about black people (Canaanites). Which used to prior to 1978, limited their participation in the church.

 

Now for jdtpcouple:

 

Show your mom the message you have left here. It sounds like you spoke well. It's not her life, but your attempt to explain a little about yours. Then if she doesn't like it, no further discussion.

 

In other words, Mormonism is based on, to us at least, wholly unacceptable racism.

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Why is everyone concentrating on the mother scenario ..... when all the girl asked was what kind of crap might she expect to be thrown at her for being a "Swinger"?

 

The answer is simple....it's the mother who is doing the judging, and the crap being thrown at her for being a swinger is coming only from the mother. The other people that the OP is concerned might also find out are a circle that includes a few other relatives that the mother may out her to. If you'd really read this, instead of just trying to bash board members for writing sincere answers because they feel for her or relate to her, you would have seen that.

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As an engineer and given to rational consideration of issues, my personal opinion is the only perversion in nature is abstinence. Having a sex-positive outlook on life is vastly superior to having the repressive psychopathy of the Evangeliban.

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Perhaps she was asking about other non-swingers in the general population. I think most people will ostracize. We don't give a flying crap what anyone else thinks. Then again, we are flaming Libertarians. We don't flaunt what we do, but don't hide it either. The biggest thing is to be confident in herself and not worry what others, especially her 'mother'.

 

However, I think we would be remiss in not warning her that religious psychopaths could try to report her to the county. If someone had said the things her mother did I'd be looking for a lawyer to be sure to cover my ass.

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FYI - there is no legitimate scientific evidence suggesting that the Lamanites are the ancestors of American Indians. The first book of Mormon has testimony of the original witnesses of the transcibing of "reformed Egyptian' language. Yet, those witnessess all left the religion - and the Book of Mormon, which God said was true and accurate has been revised several times.. So, if the original was true, then, why revise the book so many times to fit the new explanation?

 

As far as swinging goes, I wouldn't try to connect a religious belief with primordial human behavior, since religion tends to taint natural human sexual instinct.

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Coming from a family of six kids where our mom discovered the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints quite late in life, we all studied it but were not overly impressed.

 

Lamenites, Canaanites, poligamy etc.

 

Very convenient for Joseph Smith (the founder of Mormonism) but, at the end of the day, he was a dude called Joe Smith - that's all there is to be said about him in reality.

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FYI - there is no legitimate scientific evidence suggesting that the Lamanites are the ancestors of American Indians.

 

Ummm, for that matter there is no legitimate scientific evidence validating ANY religious philosophies

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Ummm, for that matter there is no legitimate scientific evidence validating ANY religious philosophies
I have thought of that before and you put it into words. Thanks.

 

In other words, Mormonism is based on, to us at least, wholly unacceptable racism.
One of many ways to look at the beliefs of organized religion.

 

The original poster had a problem with family that wouldn't take care of her, regardless of her problems. My kids will always have a place with me. I will always love them, although sometimes I may not like them. Which they thoroughly understand that concept. We have tried to teach them to be open minded and honest. In my particular family history, I feel that each generation has improved in some fashion which I can visibly see.

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One, assuming you are over 18, tell her to stay the #@)) off your PC.

 

Two, Regardless of who daddy is, does she ever want to see her grandchildren? If so, butt out.

 

I had a meddling, controlling mother and this was my only solution that worked and it worked well.

 

Cold but effective.

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This reminds me of the cop's need for "searching orders" delivered by judges (that at least here serves just one purpose, if they find drugs while looking for guns, the finding lacks value). Once the mother found out "proof" without the right to look for them, the whole finding lacks value. Moreover, the "proofs" she found was about the daughter swinging, which isn't a "crime", while the mother actions already are faulty.

 

If someone wants to find you "guilty" of some "crime" in order to take control of your life, that one sooner or later will succeed, just because there exist a will to dig in and do whatever it takes to get a lever.

 

IMO, the only way to deal with this people is to shift the focus from your own actions, and aim to that will to find a charge to make you guilty of. Attempting to hide the "proofs" only helps reinforce the other party position here.

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It's as if she was looking for something to incriminate you with....It just feels like she takes some sort of delight in finding you guilty of something, and then making you pay.

I agree. I think it comes from the need to justify the "truth" of her religion. To validate her sacrifices by condemning those who indulge. In order to condemn, you must incriminate, in order to incriminate, you must discover...it's a process that is rationalized by telling herself she is only looking out for me in an "eternal" sense.

 

However, I think we would be remiss in not warning her that religious pschopaths could try to report her to the county. If someone had said the things her mother did I'd be looking for a lawyer to be sure to cover my ass.

I have to admit that the thought crossed my mind, " I wonder if she'd go so far as to try and take my kids away?" I want to say no way, she'd never, that she'd be too afraid of losing, then never seeing them again. I want to say that, but given her irrationality and judgments so far...plus it wouldn't be hard for her to find a lawyer in the church who would represent her for free, while I would have to pay to keep my own children. I can't even imagine it, the very idea seems so unreasonable that it's like a horror film. Still...the thought had crossed my mind, "Where would I go for representation?" It would be all over the news, but I don't really know of swinger organizations that help with that sort of thing like there are in the poly world ie Loving More.

 

Attempting to hide the "proofs" only helps reinforce the other party position here.

I gotta say I agree here. My husband & I were just talking about alternative babysitters & he mentioned his mom. The question we discussed was what if she asks why my mom isn't sitting for us anymore. Do we have a cover story as to why she isn't around? We came up with several untruths, all of which would lead his mom to call my mom in an attempt to help reconcile us. I think its better just to not ask his mom to sit for us, thereby avoiding the initial question as to why my mom isn't and not have to tell a cover story at all. Anything we say will lead to her nosing around too. If we're caught lying then we have to face the accusations of, "If there's nothing wrong with it then why were you lying about it?" Duh!

 

The update so far:

 

All's quiet on the repressive front.

 

She hasn't contacted me, I won't contact her. As far as I'm concerned I don't need to work to make things right, because I didn't do anything wrong. Besides any attempt to contact her will only antagonize her. Nothing from my dad, or anyone else on that side of the family. I'm sure he knows and is either equally angry, or remaining silent as to present a united parental front. As for not telling extended family. It looks like they haven't/won't but I fear as soon as I get comfortable thinking that way, someone will turn up...maybe I'm just paranoid, I don't think anyone will blame me? Still so far, so good.

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She hasn't contacted me, I won't contact her. As far as I'm concerned I don't need to work to make things right, because I didn't do anything wrong. Besides any attempt to contact her will only antagonize her.

 

I agree with you.

 

Since you two were discussing who could babysit, I get the impression that your mom was in your house a lot because you needed a sitter? I'd suggest that you look outside of the family and just find a nice, qualified, neutral babysitter that you're not related to. I know, sitters cost money, but look at the high price you pay by bringing your mother in. She charges a very high emotional toll.

 

Since your mother's beliefs could make her feel justified and even righteous in the matter of trying to take your kids from you (making you pay), and because she likely would have access to free legal services through LDS, that would be the straw for me. I would change my locks (if she has a key, you don't want her snooping in the house for "evidence" while you're out). I'd do what's reasonable to keep her out of my personal business, for good.

 

I'm glad to hear that things have been calm and you're not getting berated or threatened. I truly hope it stays this way for you. Odds are, I'll bet this is as far as it goes.

 

Hugs and best wishes to you!

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If your mom kicked you out of the house when you were 17 and expected you to suffer on the streets, then what right does she have to have any judgement whatsoever about the life you are currently leading? None, in my opinion. You are going to hell, right? I mean, she already decided that. Why is she snooping around the hellbound's computer? I'd ask her that.

 

Your question is what kind of a relationship do you want with her? If you want to have a truthful family relationship, I think she would have to be willing to go to therapy with you.

 

I am sorry I can't answer any of the questions you asked.

 

Bob

(certainly going to hell in a mormon world.)

I thought the same thing. What was she doing on your computer? What was she doing in your home?

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