Need some help with touching/initiation

Tonight I had a pretty important realization that I might need some help/advice when it comes to touching and initiation of getting physical. For those that didn't see the other thread about our first club/ls event this past weekend, it did not go well.

While I didn't go into detail about it on my end, I didn't get much female attention. But what little attention I did get ended pretty quickly and I think it might have had something to do with my approach to initiation. Let me explain.

My wife was hitting it off with the male half of the other couple but I was not getting any real vibes of desire from the female half. My wife told me to go make some moves. Soon after, the male half told me the same and pointed at her ass as she was bent over and he grabbed her ass and caressed her pussy under her dress. But in my mind, because she didn't express any interest and the years of experience I have teaching college kids about consent when it comes to sex, this was a massive no-no in my book so I balked at the situation and continued to get no attention. Then toward the end of the night, my wife and the guy (who had both been playing with each other throughout the night through/under clothes) told me to go give it another try. So I did. Started just by lightly brushing her arms, asked her if she was okay with it to which she replied "I wouldn't still be standing here otherwise", so I put my hands on her hips from behind and we started to grind ass to crotch. A few seconds later she walked back over to him and continued dancing. Game over.

I would really appreciate some thoughts and advice on being a little smoother at 1) Expressing interest and 2) gaining consent to start touching if we're on the dance floor or some other place where some good dialogue isn't possible that would lead to a more natural progression that included expression of mutual interest, consent, etc...

Thanks!

Well, that technique has worked for me dozens of times - at least.

What may have happened is that you were giving off 'newbie' vibes. Many people don't like to play with newbies, because they're afraid of drama. The newbies (sometimes) can get freaked out easily.

As usual, you're overthinking it a little. Plan on going to a club a couple of times more; if these problems still exist (I bet they won't,) *then* it will be time for remedial action.

In a previous post you mentioned you both perhaps had more to drink than you should. That can definitely turn some people off. There may have been initial interest that was later lost, which can be confusing.

Other woman may disagree with this but if we are some place as a couple, esp a couples club, and hubby and the other woman start to play I see that as an indication to the other husband that I’m a go with me. Certainly it shouldn’t be a rape but seems that at that point the door is open for feeling, touching, kissing and on. And the same thing, if we are there as a couple and they are there as a couple, if I start playing with her husband or allow him to start playing with me, then its as if she has already, perhaps tacitly, given the go ahead for my husband to play with her.

In a previous post you mentioned you both perhaps had more to drink than you should. That can definitely turn some people off. There may have been initial interest that was later lost, which can be confusing.

No, I had one drink and didn't even finish it and instead switched to Coke because I felt fine and had a 2 hour drive ahead of me. She was the one that finished an entire 375ml of Vodka by herself. So on that level, I've thought the same as you.

Other woman may disagree with this but if we are some place as a couple, esp a couples club, and hubby and the other woman start to play I see that as an indication to the other husband that I’m a go with me. Certainly it shouldn’t be a rape but seems that at that point the door is open for feeling, touching, kissing and on. And the same thing, if we are there as a couple and they are there as a couple, if I start playing with her husband or allow him to start playing with me, then its as if she has already, perhaps tacitly, given the go ahead for my husband to play with her.

I appreciate you sharing but I'd like to know if this is pretty much a standard that exists specifically in the ls that and no where else outside of it? If we're able to have some level of dialogue with the couple and they acknowledge that their communication is such that if one starts to play/touch/etc...both are good to go, I have no problem diving in. But otherwise that ground is too shaky to walk on just with assumption for support.

Thanks.

I'm big on respecting boundaries unless I know for certain the lady is open to unsolicited touching. If I'm not getting a vibe I will hold out my hand and see if she takes it or figure a way to bump her to see if she responds. I'm not afraid to ask her if I can kiss her. But if she is not into me or the scene I will not engage in grabbing or groping. Not my style.

But in my mind, because she didn't express any interest and the years of experience I have teaching college kids about consent when it comes to sex, this was a massive no-no in my book so I balked at the situation and continued to get no attention.

 

I would really appreciate some thoughts and advice on being a little smoother at 1) Expressing interest and 2) gaining consent to start touching if we're on the dance floor or some other place where some good dialogue isn't possible that would lead to a more natural progression that included expression of mutual interest, consent, etc...

 

Thanks!

Remember when a Gentleman played by a more complicated , but more natural set of rules?

We never assumed that we were welcomed. We did the dance. Yes an arm or hand would wander and the lady would feel free to remove it. If it stayed in place and we felt that she looked comfortable then perhaps a bit more advancement. Eventually she would take your hand and lead you off, give you a passionate, indicative kiss, get up and leave or slap your face.

As long as the Gentleman was a Gentleman there was never cry of rape or attack. It was a dance for two skillfully played out.

In a swinger environment I still play by those rules. Being of a definitely non aggressive nature it took several parties for the Ladies to figure out that I was not being standoffish. Now they know that I truly enjoy talking and doing the dance. They feel less like prey and more like, well, hot Ladies. For me and my desired results it plays out well and I get to be who I am by nature.

It is not about body count.

Remember when a Gentleman played by a more complicated , but more natural set of rules?

We never assumed that we were welcomed. We did the dance. Yes an arm or hand would wander and the lady would feel free to remove it. If it stayed in place and we felt that she looked comfortable then perhaps a bit more advancement. Eventually she would take your hand and lead you off, give you a passionate, indicative kiss, get up and leave or slap your face.

 

As long as the Gentleman was a Gentleman there was never cry of rape or attack. It was a dance for two skillfully played out.

 

In a swinger environment I still play by those rules. Being of a definitely non aggressive nature it took several parties for the Ladies to figure out that I was not being standoffish. Now they know that I truly enjoy talking and doing the dance. They feel less like prey and more like, well, hot Ladies. For me and my desired results it plays out well and I get to be who I am by nature.

 

It is not about body count.

What I'm taking away from that is that it's okay to start with the more innocent/surface level touching and then work up from there if the environment isn't friendly for verbal dialogue. Is that the general idea?

If that is the case, I guess I just want to know how not to come off as creepy since I'm not well versed on those initial touches/caresses. Not to sound dorky, but I just never had to focus much on them. It always went from dialogue, very obvious mutual consent/desire, and then locking doors and busting furniture.

This sounds like something that's the same in the vanilla world and outside of it. Work on that initial body language. Touching or patting somebody on the back of the hand or forearm is usually a good starting place, or putting your hand briefly somewhere on their back if that's where you're standing. It's also perfectly acceptable to use something as an excuse to further break the physical ice, like getting a look at an earring.

I once thoughtlessly put my hand on the ribcage of a woman who managed the local drugstore as I passed.

"Hey, how are things with you?" Then brushed my hand across her side, like a pat just ahead of where I'd put my hand if I was leading a woman dancing.

She hit on me every time I shopped there for the next year. That unintended little signal was that strong.

Just be aware of making sure the person doesn't feel cornered into the interaction. Those are all the kinds of things somebody will back out of freely if they want to.

What I'm taking away from that is that it's okay to start with the more innocent/surface level touching and then work up from there if the environment isn't friendly for verbal dialogue. Is that the general idea?

 

If that is the case, I guess I just want to know how not to come off as creepy since I'm not well versed on those initial touches/caresses. Not to sound dorky, but I just never had to focus much on them. It always went from dialogue, very obvious mutual consent/desire, and then locking doors and busting furniture.

Note I start with TALKING. You can tell an awful lot if you are paying attention.

Is she leaning in ? hair flips or any of that other stuff? Smiling? Is she deliberately ignoring other distractions?

But in my mind, because she didn't express any interest and the years of experience I have teaching college kids about consent when it comes to sex, this was a massive no-no in my book so I balked at the situation and continued to get no attention.

First, I think you have to stop drinking the Title IX kool-aid. Having a contractural like discussion that ends with two people saying "Yes, I would like to have sex with you," and then pledging to cease and desist should the other party rescind permission might be necessary for people who lack the intelligence to figure out or the empathy to read his/her partner, but for anyone not lacking those abilities, contractual law is a real mood killer (unless you're both weird corporate counsel.)

I would say that anytime I have wondered whether or not a woman was "really" interested in me, I was being optimistic, not realistic. Women seem to be pretty good at conveying interest without being as obvious as guys are. Just go incrementally. First talk to her. If you are having difficulty keeping the conversation going, you are most likely sol. On the other hand, if the conversation is effortless, then put yourself in range to be touched. Then, just go back and forth a little at a time, by giving her the opportunity to go a little further. Also, you could just try something like asking her to kiss you. (Despite what many people say, I think asking a woman if you may kiss her doesn't come across well. It's sort of like holding up a sign that says "awkward." If you have to ask, then you shouldn't do it because she isn't interested.)

Talk first - about something other than sex, unless you're a real wordsmith. That ought to tell you quite a lot. Then do a reality check to see if you are dismissing all of the negative signs in favor of optimism.

First, I think you have to stop drinking the Title IX kool-aid. Having a contractural like discussion that ends with two people saying "Yes, I would like to have sex with you," and then pledging to cease and desist should the other party rescind permission might be necessary for people who lack the intelligence to figure out or the empathy to read his/her partner, but for anyone not lacking those abilities, contractual law is a real mood killer (unless you're both weird corporate counsel.)

 

I would say that anytime I have wondered whether or not a woman was "really" interested in me, I was being optimistic, not realistic. Women seem to be pretty good at conveying interest without being as obvious as guys are. Just go incrementally. First talk to her. If you are having difficulty keeping the conversation going, you are most likely sol. On the other hand, if the conversation is effortless, then put yourself in range to be touched. Then, just go back and forth a little at a time, by giving her the opportunity to go a little further. Also, you could just try something like asking her to kiss you. (Despite what many people say, I think asking a woman if you may kiss her doesn't come across well. It's sort of like holding up a sign that says "awkward." If you have to ask, then you shouldn't do it because she isn't interested.)

 

Talk first - about something other than sex, unless you're a real wordsmith. That ought to tell you quite a lot. Then do a reality check to see if you are dismissing all of the negative signs in favor of optimism.

Greatly appreciate the reply. Good point about title IX and empathy.

Again, it's been what I have to educate on for years. And the ls community does seem to be more forgiving of certain violations (read: honest mistakes). So no real need for me to be worried about a lawsuit/arrest. Maybe a no thanks ranging up to face slap I guess.

Thanks!

The point you seem to be missing EMT is that swinging is about recreational sex, it's supposed to be fun and freeing and playful. In reading your multitude of posts and questions it appears that you are needlessly complicating a relatively simple concept with lists, questions, doubts, suppositions, overthinking and as Ozzie said, Title IX bs. At the rate you seem to be going, you'll put off way more people than you'll ever get naked. While you're overthinking, perhaps you should think about whether this is really something you'll ever actually be able to do. I can tell you that if you need to medicate your partner with booze or xanax, you're probably looking at the wrong hobby.

My late wife had degrees in Psychology and Communications. In college she had made a study of body language and (particularly) college age dating. Go Figure. She found that our culture dictates, not only what touching may be done, when and where, but in a particular way. I'm afraid I'm not learned enough to list the exact order. Basically, upon meeting shaking hands is proper. As people talk, emphasis may be made by lightly touching a hand. When going through a door, a man might gently touch her between the shoulders. When walking onto a dance floor for the first time, it's okay to clasp hands, but not interlace fingers. If a woman gives your lips a pleasant look, she's thinking about kissing you but may not ready to do it. If her gaze often drops to your lips and back again, she's about ready. Interlacing fingers comes later on the way to "your place or mine."

The order is important. If make a "move" ahead of schedule, it's offensive.

Results may vary.

The point you seem to be missing EMT is that swinging is about recreational sex, it's supposed to be fun and freeing and playful. In reading your multitude of posts and questions it appears that you are needlessly complicating a relatively simple concept with lists, questions, doubts, suppositions, overthinking and as Ozzie said, Title IX bs. At the rate you seem to be going, you'll put off way more people than you'll ever get naked. While you're overthinking, perhaps you should think about whether this is really something you'll ever actually be able to do. I can tell you that if you need to medicate your partner with booze or xanax, you're probably looking at the wrong hobby.

That's actually helpful. If someone with your disposition has been successful in the ls, we're going to be just fine.

Go ahead and check our sls profile and be sure to check the validations before you make another invalid supposition about my disposition. WE have been quite successful swingers for over 15 years and continue to be so. In fact, we're going to a party Friday night with 10-12 other couples and we'll all be playing before the sun fully sets in SWFL! You on the other hand, couldn't get laid in a place where people go to HAVE sex. I believe that validates my point about complicating a relatively simple process.

@Emt:

I'm an introvert and I can empathize with overthinking stuff, but I have a suggestion for you. The next time you are in the situation that you need to do something to get the ball rolling: (1) Strike up a conversation. If it goes well; (2) Tell her to kiss you in a really nonchalant way. If she does, you are home free. Just provide the opportunity for her to keep going and just follow along. If she doesn't, just talk for a minute or two before moving on. By continuing to talk with her for a few minutes, you will eliminate any awkwardness.

BTW, the really, really big irony in all of the title IX nonsense and giving guys the boot just upon being accused, (400 lawsuits by many such guys notwithstanding), is that the person most responsible for pushing universities to do that is Joe Biden. Nothing like bad karma.

One other thing that works really well is just asking her if it's okay to touch her...