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This relationship expert talks about swingers/polys/etc. desperately trying to "sell" their brand of marriage to validate a lifestyle they know in their innermost soul...is just wrong. You can read all about it in section 2 of her book, Dr. Karen's Marriage Manual. Signed copies are available if you purchase directly through her website.

 

HOLD me back, people. I've got a whopper of a post on stand-by and I'm going to sleep on it before unleashing hell. Holy shit. I just checked the word count. Gonna have to pare that down a little...

 

Non-Monogamy, Polyamory, Swinging- A Relationship Expert's View

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This chick is condescending, patronizing, snooty and gets all calm and professional-like when someone's argument gets at all heated. I've taken a less offensive tack...although I had to count to ten. It just really frosts my cookies when someone in a position of authority waves their little piece of paper around, claiming to be an expert in her field, when she has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that she knows nothing about the subject she's preaching about.

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I glanced at the comments and noticed how she praised those who agreed with her and dismissed those that opposed her without even giving their opinion some thought. I didn't want to get riled up so I didn't read too much.

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I glanced at the comments and noticed how she praised those who agreed with her and dismissed those that opposed her without even giving their opinion some thought. I didn't want to get riled up so I didn't read too much.

 

"Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to buy wisdom, Seeing he hath no understanding?" ~Proverbs 17:16

 

In other words, a bought-and-paid-for PhD is completely wasted on those who can't discern the difference between education and wisdom.

 

EDIT:

See also Proverbs 26:4 - "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." (Don't take the troll bait)

 

And Proverbs 23:9 - "Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words." (Don't bother beating a dead horse)

 

And finally, Proverbs 15:12 - "The arrogant mocker never loves the one who corrects him; he will not inquire of the wise." In other words, "Dr. Karen" will not appreciate anyone fucking with her deeply-held world-view, and will continue to cherry-pick where she sees fit.

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Meh, just another talking head flapping their gums to get a paycheck. Like those who pay the bills being an "expert witness" in a trial...cut me a check and let me know which side to take to make sure I don't get it confused with the position I'm supposed to take for my other paying clients. I won't question that she does indeed have a practice, but looking over the bio and website, seems to be quite a bit of self-promotion regarding media appearances and speaking engagements.

 

Dr. Phil wannabe. Seeing how I have zero interest in anything Dr. Phil or any other paid entertainer (because that's really what they are) says, then the same goes for her.

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...this lady only sees people who are having issues in their relationship.

 

Yeah, a few people actually called her on that.

 

Putting each other in a box and labeling it 'mine' isn't necessarily the path to happiness; just look at the overall divorce rates.

 

Love this.

 

This lady only talks about one side of the coin, she's never seen the other side (swinging couples who are successful so they don't require her 'expertise') so of course, the other side doesn't exist to her. It would be interesting to see what she has to say to all of us, although she probably wouldn't talk to us heathens.

 

Or if she did come to talk to us, it would be to preach the good word and show us the error of our ways. LOL I wish her luck. She's one of those people who is always right, regardless of what you say, because she cherry-picks and twists the facts to suit her argument.

 

Dammit, I wrote that big long post and I'm realizing how pointless it is to post it there.

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I won't question that she does indeed have a practice, but looking over the bio and website, seems to be quite a bit of self-promotion regarding media appearances and speaking engagements.

 

Dr. Phil wannabe.

 

Yup. I just hate that people are actually buying her bullshit.

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Ok, obviously she is an arrogant, condescending jerk...

 

but...

 

How many times have couples come to this board asking for advice about using swinging to fix their marriage, or using swinging to cope with serial cheating, or who want to "spice up their marriage." How many of those couples leave here with the advice "Swinging doesn't fix a marriage, magnifies the cracks in a relationship" or "Cheating isn't swinging, swinging won't fix cheating" or "It sounds like you aren't yet in a place in your relationship where this is a good idea for you."

 

Yes, she is generalizing from that is say that swinging/non-monogamy can't work... and in that many of us can clearly prove her wrong. However, from the experiences she cites in her article, the couples she has dealt with bear out our own oft voiced warnings. Yeah, we're more positive about the idea of swinging because we've seen it work (and because we're generally not arrogant, condescending jerks) but I can still hear the distant echoes of my own words in her strident rhetoric.

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The trouble is that she bases her conclusions on a self-selected sample group: people who have FUBAR'ed their relationship by trying swinging when they had no business doing so. She doesn't ever see successful couples in her practice, because they don't need her help. And even if they do go to her for some other problem, they likely don't bother mentioning their lifestyle choices because they aren't relevant to the problem. If they did, I'm sure every problem would stem from it according to the good doctor.

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Love it! Well written, thought-out, and with just a pinch of "suck it, lady!" so as not to raise too many heckles.

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I really really loved this part at the end of a sad thread under her article:

 

Quote
Dr. Karen- In this response, you say:

“Whether parents have many children or one child, it is all about the parenting not the quantity of children”

Thank you. As a happy practicing polyamorous person, I say…

“Whether people have many relationships or one relationship, it is all about the relationship not the quantity of connections”

Bam.

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Your comment is awaiting moderation

 

Well, after only a few sentences I feel I know the value of the advice. It seems ‘marriage’ is already established as the desirable form of a relationship. Throughout the whole article, this form of a relationship between adults is the only form discussed and all others are wrong (based on a biased selection, namely the patients of this doctor).

 

Then, browsing through the comments, I noticed how Dr. Ruskin uses phrases as ‘LOL’ and “ha ha, that is very funny” as replies on serious comments on her post and I know for sure how to value this whole article.

Will not survive the moderation, I presume, but at least I have it of my chest.

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There we go. Post submitted, awaiting moderation. Maybe it makes it to her forum - fully butchered - maybe it doesn't, but at least she'll have read it.

 

Conveying sarcasm is often difficult over the internet, but she does an admirable job of it. Such as: "Greater fulfillment, hmmm, so many are looking for greater fulfillment, aren’t we?" My spelling, punctuation and grammar are far from perfect, but I had to refrain from being the grammar police throughout her article and replies. It's me, not I. You don't need a question mark there, because it's not a question. Or there...or there. Oh I see, you're doing the internet-version of that little teenager-y head-rocking thing when they're being snarky little assholes to their parents.

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Is it just me, or am I bouncing my head off a brick wall? Is there any point in posting this?? Is there any hope she'll understand what I'm saying here? Or will she just continue to be evasive and snooty to cover up that her understanding of relationship dynamics is about as deep as a mud puddle, and she has zero interest in deepening said understanding?

 

If your goal is to convince her, yes you are absolutely bouncing your head off a brick wall. Based solely on what I've read of her from this article, she will choose to ignore, misunderstand or simply dogmatically disagree with your point. She will likely respond that you have simply failed to yet recognize the flaws in your relationship which have led to this unhealthy behavior which will in time destroy you.

 

So is there any point in posting this? Hell yes! You aren't going to convince her but you are educating everyone else who is reading these comments and if even one person among them is informed or even enlightened by your post, you have done them a good service.

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If no one has any suggested edits, I'll go ahead and post it. Hopefully the thinkers will know enough to extricate themselves from her herd of sheeple and think things through for themselves. And for the rest of them... Well... You can't save 'em all, Hasselhoff.

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intuition897 said:

Is it just me, or am I bouncing my head off a brick wall? Is there any point in posting this?? Is there any hope she'll understand what I'm saying here? Or will she just continue to be evasive and snooty to cover up that her understanding of relationship dynamics is about as deep as a mud puddle, and she has zero interest in deepening said understanding?

 

Some years back, some colleagues wrote down some pretty good rules. (Search on Ten Pretty Good Rules, you'll find them.) Among them were the following:

 

***Never wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it.

 

***Never argue with an idiot. People watching might not be able to tell the difference.

 

Dr. Karen has an earned degree and she is free to practice -- and preach -- as she chooses. You will not sway her beliefs, nor will she sway yours. You speak from experience, N = 1 couple. Hers includes at least her clients -- but we are blind to her personal experience.

 

There is a synthesis, however. On some level both Dr. Karen and those who are posting in response to her screed agree that marriage is about growth of the partners and their partnership. She views non-monogamy as a symptom and a threat. We see certain types of non-monogamy as an expression of trust and mutual support. Depending on the marriage, it can probably be either. It is unlikely to be both.

 

I suspect we all know couples-- vanilla and LS alike -- whose work within their marriage failed and they split. I imagine we might agree with Dr. Karen that making a successful marriage work and helping it grow is not easy. Unhealthy behavior takes many forms.

 

I'm willing to bet that every person who is responding to his thread has said -- sometime in the past 24 hours -- something that conveys "My spouse, you are the most important person in my life, we are a team, inseparable,...". People who end up in Dr. Karen's office are not saying that, feeling that, nourishing that idea.

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So I just saw this, go get'em intuition897. You rock!!

 

The sad fact is mainstream counselor's with no real evidence to back them up besides the 'moral majority' all preach exactly what 'Dr. Karen' is preaching. I am really not a huge fan of 'marriage counselors' and relationship counselors in general.

 

Still I appreciate your effort in disarming the loaded gun this 'Dr.' brings to bear.

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kikonkrome said:
So I just saw this, go get'em intuition897. You rock!!

 

Similar situation here, I've just read this too.

Just think Miss Karen has more than an opinion,

She believes she is right.

 

10 point to you for you response!

Just love it!

 

Cheers from Aus.

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I am in the middle of another discussion on another board where people actually think it is good for the wife to cheat, degrade, humiliate, and emasculate their husband. Which I could actually say this to them.

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