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CanadianCouple

The body beautiful? Tired of seeing "HWP" in ads

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This is a subject discussed here previously, but at the risk of sounding redundant, I have to re-iterate our abject frustration at the great majority of ads looking for "HWP" only. It must seem to the uninitiated that swinging is for gym rats only, and anyone more than a few pounds over the ideal is wasting their time.

 

Having spent the past several days looking through Swappernet ads, I've seen nothing to change my mind. One even had the gall to state that "BBW is a contradiction in terms." Nice, huh?

 

Sorry, just had to vent.

 

Dan

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Originally posted by CanadianCouple

This is a subject discussed here previously, but at the risk of sounding redundant...

CanadianCouple,

 

I do not find this topic redundant at all. I acutally find it very appropriate. I do remember the thread you were talking about and from just that short period of time (roughly 8 months or so ago) some of our own opinions have changed. I actually thank you for bringing it up so I can vent a little on my own.

 

This is only based on my personal opinion after a year of watching people come and go and how they first start out in their search for *swinging* both on this board and pay sites.

 

Many come into the lifestyle looking for the "perfect" body first, thinking that swinging means nothing but picking up some free *SEX* Age generally takes the next preference, with a lot of other nit picky things following it and then at the very bottom of the totem pole are personalities.

 

We were a little backwards in our preferences as age came first and then personality, with HWP at the bottom of the totem pole. Over the last year we have taken age to the bottom of the pole, thanks to some pretty cool people we have met and corresponded with that convinced me (as this was my problem and not Gene's) that age has no bearing on like minded people if you get along in the most important way.

 

Our highest priority now is personality. We have met some killer couples (body, facial wise) that had absolutely no clue to the time of day and you'ld have thought if they smiled they would crack their makeup. They were eager to play and we were not. There was no *connection* intellectually.

 

It really bothers me when people put HWP in their profiles, as to me it shows they are shallow. I was shallow on the age thing, but that has changed now. Considering that I married a man 15 years my senior, one wouldn't think age would be an issue to me, but it was. Not only is HWP subjective, it pays no attention to the individual inside the package.

 

Let me meet someone who has the kindness, intellect and ability to make me feel comfortable and I can relate to, who may have not enough or a little extra pounds or maybe some surgical scars...whatever, I'll take that any day of over someone whom I can't hold a meaningful conversation with, HWP or not.

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It really bothers me when people put HWP in their profiles, as to me it shows they are shallow.

1. So what you all are saying is people whose preferences are to play with HWP's are shallow and those who don't care aren't shallow?

2. How is it that your criteria ie personality is less shallow ie better on some cosmic scale than those people who like HWP's?

3. Why are you concerned about other peoples criteria?

4. Why do you care if they are "shallow"?

 

We've meet plenty of attractive couples who aren't in the "absolutely no clue to the time of day and you'ld have thought if they smiled they would crack their makeup." camp.

 

Many come into the lifestyle looking for the "perfect" body first, thinking that swinging means nothing but picking up some free *SEX*

It seems that for you swinging isn't about sex. That's fine. For other people it is about sex. That's fine too. If one doesn't want to play with those people don't. I'm just not sure why those people are shalllow and you're not. I though that the point of swinging was to be able to have sex with people that society says you're not supposed to have sex with. If swinging isn't about sex than why do swingers have sex? Why not just enjoy their personalities?

 

We have lots of friends that aren't in the lifestyle and we don't have sex with them. Some of them we're not sexually attracted to physically or emotionally. Some of them we are attracted to. Either way they are still friends. What differentiates our non-Lifestyle friends from our swinging friends is sex. We have sex with our swinging friends. We don't with our non-swinging friends even if we are attracted to them.

 

People are people. They come in all shapes and sizes, all kinds of personalities. There is somebody for everyone.

Why let someone else's idea of the "perfect" person concern you or the board?

What is it you're trying to accomplish with your posts about this topic?

 

I certainly don't think you're going to change their minds. Only time and experience (as with your own criteria "Over the last year we have taken age to the bottom of the pole" ) will do that if it will be done at all. The HWPer's may find that that criteria works just fine for them "Thank you" and never change. Will they miss some good times(SEX)? Maybe but if they're happy with the results what different does it make to you?

 

Maybe a "Live and let Live" philosophy would reduce your "abject frustration". It seems to us that there are enough people in the world trying to tell other people how to live their lives (for instance, alQuaida to chose an extreme example!).

 

So take this post as food for thought. Far be it for me to tell yall how to live your swinging lives but I think you're beating a dead horse, barking up the wrong tree and preaching to the choir!

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1. Would a person who prefers BBW's be shallow or create "abject frustration"?

 

2. I don't recall any posts from the HWPers complaining about the BBW lovers. Do yall?

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Imsnowman,

 

 

"It really bothers me when people put HWP in their profiles, as to me it shows they are shallow."

 

When I made this statement I should have used the word "seems" as opposed to "shows". My apoligies for that one.

 

Speaking only for myself here, I did express myself based on my own experiences over the last year. We meet the majority of lifestyle memebers through pay sites. Through them we meet others in their circle of friends in addition to those we have met through clubs and private parties.

 

Before I go into further detail, exactly what is the definitiion of HWP? Whose guidlines do we follow? That which is put out by the AMA, (which changes constantly) or one in which the person who seeks HWP? Does the terminolgy mean HWP in such as the seeking party has? That is what is so confusing to me. HWP varies by the individual and I will use myself as an example.

 

I am 5'5" tall and if I weigh anything under 135 pounds I look like I should be given last rights. A good healthy weight for me is a minimum of 150 pounds. By AMA standards I am not HWP. I am over weight. The way my body is designed is that I have exceptionally long legs and very little waist. So in order to have the appearance of a healthy curvy body I need the additional weight. Now I am not going to tell my weight on here (cause girls just don't do that thing:)) , but most people nearly faint to find out that I am over 125-130 pounds.

 

Now the sites that we belong to have as part of their profile a weight and height range. I am always honest about it but dependent upon how one views HWP, I would be considered obese by those who have evenly distributed body parts and probably weigh in the AMA range and look damn good and would look over weight if they carried the same that I do.

 

As for the shallowness, I considered even my own self shallow for not recognizing that you can be 20 something and have a much healthier outlook on life than quite a few of the 40+ age group that I know and have met in both non and non swing environments. My opinion was that if you didn't have the age you didn't have the life experience needed to connect with me on an intellectual level. Over the last few months, I have learned how wrong I was through some very special people. Therefore, I no longer have the discrimination that I harbored in my own mind about the younger generations.

 

Shallowness is also subjective. In my thinking if you cannot be open to viewing people as a whole, you are shallow. Right or wrong, that is just how I view it. I am certainly not out to change anyone else's perceptions, their deal is just that, as mine is mine. I am just sharing some important lessons that I have learned.

 

For us it is not just all about sex and we realize that there are some in which that is thier primary focus. That's cool, I say go for it and have a good time, you just aren't the kind of people that we would be inclined to be intimate with. We happen to prefer to connect with others in more ways than physically when it comes to swinging, not really any different than what we enjoy about our non-swinging friends, minus the sex.

 

Lori

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I have to agree with Lori here.

 

As a BBW, it does bother me to see so many HWP ads out there. But, I console myself with the thought that they are not the kind of people I'd like to get to know anyway. While I agree that we are in the lifestyle for the sex, as well as the new friends, we try not to judge based solely on appearances, and expect the same from those we meet.

 

Here's an example:

 

R and I met this one single man at a club. He was really nice, and fun to talk to, but kept ogling all the barbies at the club, making it clear he was not interested in me sexually.

 

This did not really bother me, as I was having a good time talking to everyone. Then, someone said something that made me laugh. I smiled at R and this guy, just a happy smile. And this guy's face lit up.

 

After that, he couldn't stay away from me. Post-coitus, I asked him about his earlier attitude. He said that usually he was not attracted to BBWs, but that he really liked my smile and my attitude, and that made me so much more attractive to him.

 

Do you see what I am getting at here? I realize that physical attraction has to be present in order to have a sexual relationship. However, there is so much more to it than that.

 

(And don't think that he was with me because he was desperate. He wasn't - he was VERY attractive, and had several women hanging all over him.)

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Originally posted by RnKin Fla

I have to agree with Lori here.

 

As a BBW, it does bother me to see so many HWP ads out there. But, I console myself with the thought that they are not the kind of people I'd like to get to know anyway. While I agree that we are in the lifestyle for the sex, as well as the new friends, we try not to judge based solely on appearances, and expect the same from those we meet.

 

You took the words right out of my mouth on this subject. Maybe we are not all 36-26-36, and to be honest good luck to those who are.

Personally I am on the larger size and what I have found is that some people take on look at a pic of a larger lady and say "no way" which is their own preference but I have visited a few sites where not only do they think it they broadcast it. Pulling a lady down without even knowing the first thing about her, which I personally find sickening.()()

 

I believe I am very lucky, not only do I have one hell of a husband (who loves every ounce of me) but we have found a great couple who dont judge on looks but on personality. :kissface:

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Originally posted by imsnowman

1. Would a person who prefers BBW's be shallow or create "abject frustration"?

 

2. I don't recall any posts from the HWPers complaining about the BBW lovers. Do yall?

In answer to your first question, yes they would be if they "snubbed" anything that wasn't their ideal. Quite often we have seen those that use HWP as their criteria for sexual partners berate others based on sight unseen people due to the fact that their weight does not factor into their height as being "fit and trim". I've seen it online, I've seen it in profiles, I've seen it live in clubs. I've even been the recipient of unsolicited mail from someone who told me that if I ever wanted to have a *meaningful* sexual relation in the swinging environment, that there was a Nautilis near me. I suppose they took the time to check it out, I didn't, so I'll just take their word for it. Now I don't know, but I am sure there are the BBW lovers that treat the *Ken and Barbies* the same. I just haven't been privy to it or fallen victim to it.

 

In answer to your second question, I don't really recall any posts from specifically the HWPer's complaining about the BBW lovers, but I do recall some of the posts from the HWP's condemning the BBW's. Here's is a link to that height/weight proportional discussion.

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Originally posted by babydragon

Maybe we are not all 36-26-36, and to be honest good luck to those who are.

EGADS!!! The standards have changed again??? What happened to the 36-24-36 (aka perfect body), or does this just apply to the over 30 crowd this year?! :rofl:

 

What RnKin Fla stated is a perfect example of what is the norm in how people view others. When this person saw a glimpse of the inner person his attention did an about face.

 

Lori

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This all goes back to a basic guiding principle of mine: the rules in swinging are exactly the same as the basic rules of dating. It's just a mistake to think that somehow swinging changes the fundamental rules for how people hook up with each other. The dating rule that's relevant here is that some people are just flat-out not interested in having sex with overweight people. Making those people into swingers doesn't somehow magically make them interested in having sex with people that they don't consider sexually attractive.

 

When I was single I wouldn't have been interested in sex with a girl that was really overweight so I don't see how that's any different in swinging. My wife feels the same way. Body fat doesn't have any bearing on what I think of a person as a friend. My best friend in the world is a 3D animator that spends all day in front of a computer and he's enormously fat. I mean seriously huge, we worry about his health. I love him and I love being around him, I'm just not interested in fucking him.

 

I'll probably get flamed for saying this out loud, but I personally think that the "shallow" label is something that fat people use to deflect blame. If I'm not attracted to a fat girl, it's not because she's fat, it's because I'm shallow. "Shallow" is a term that is used by fat people to classify the world into two categories: people that will give them a chance and people that will not give them a chance. Ironically, it's a very shallow and self-serving classification system.

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OK lets open a whole can of worms here. Everyone has gone on about HWP and BBW and all things implied within, lets look at the BIGGER stage (pun intended).

 

None of us can say we haven't seen ads where people are honest enough to say we don't want this or that, I think what the problem some people find is the wording is not exactly sensitive to those it covers.

 

I can think of at least a few ways to word it differently but then again it isn't me posting my preferences. If I was to post a add stating ok I don't OHM, VCM or my personal favorite WBTM, I'd prolly not get any nice replies and def lots of flak. (I'll explain the abbs at the end).

 

We all have our preferences and that's ok but maybe just maybe a bit more sensitivity would be helpful.

 

(Abbs from above are OHM Overly Hairy Men, VCM Vertically Challenged Men and WMTM is Wam Bam Thankyou Men.)

 

Personally I am would never make any sort of statement regarding looks at all cause the person inside is who turns me on. (well and personal hygiene helps)

 

:rolleyes:

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I understand what TeamSoBe is saying, but I disagree that we larger folk use the shallow label to deflect anything.

 

If you are not attracted to fat girls, then hey, that is your preference. However, you might be surprised just how much that little hottie down the street actually weighs.

 

When you base something on just a number, THAT is shallow.

 

Aside from that, yes I am fat - I use BBW because most people are uncomfortable with the word fat. I have no problem with it and I am comfortable with myself. You'll notice that I have never said, "yes, I am fat but I have been losing weight."

 

And I find that if most people take a little bit of time to hang out with me they find me darn near irresistible.

 

Now, if I were to be really shallow my ad would read something like "no one need apply who cannot spell or uses 'u' instead of you and 'ur' instead of your/you're."

 

How's that for shallow?

 

But, as I said, we don't judge on appearance, or on lack of spelling ability. We like to get to know you, and make an effort to see what is truly beautiful inside a person.

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Imsnowman --

 

If an individual or couple were to preclude any possibilty of swinging with anyone who's overweight simply because of that physical characteristic, you're damned right they're shallow. Sure, we all have preferences including those who gravitate towards BBW's, but to exclude someone soley because they're not the physical ideal is pretty crass. Crass also describes the many ads that seemingly draw parallels between being overweight and being dirty, as if the two are synomymous with each other. Yeah, it's just about sex, but surely there's a connection other than just the physical that's got to be present, otherwise a knothole in a tree would do. How would you ever know if that connection is there if you don't give the other couple a chance to meet you?

 

Dan

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Originally posted by OhioCouple

 

I don't really recall any posts from specifically the HWPer's complaining about the BBW lovers, but I do recall some of the posts from the HWP's condemning the BBW's.

 

Lori --

 

The following is a quote from a Rhode Island couple's ad, referring to their aversion to overweight swingers --

 

"Sorry, we're not giving out steak only to get hamburger in return."

 

What egotistic, pompous asses.

 

Dan

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I wonder how much of the irritation over the 'shallow' people comes from the fact that they are looking for HWP partners and how much of the irritation comes from the fact that they say so right up front in their profile. We don't say anything like that in our online profiles because we just don't say anything negative at all in those. Our online profiles are about what we're looking for as opposed to what we're not looking for. We don't pursue anything with people that we aren't attracted to, but there's no point in throwing out blanket insults right up front.

 

As far as inner beauty though, I'm looking for inner beauty when I'm looking for a love mate. When I'm looking for a partner for an explicitly sexual relationship where the whole idea is that I don't develop too many emotions, then I don't see why inner beauty is really a relevant concept.

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Team --

 

Interesting story about your large friend you love so much but have no desire to have sex with. Keep in mind how many potential wonderful friendships never come to fruition because of snobs who won't entertain the thought of meeting overweight people. Sad, huh?

 

You know what's a real hoot? So many of these people describe themselves in the same ads as non-judgemental of others. What hypocrites.

 

Dan

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Originally posted by TeamSoBe

When I'm looking for a partner for an explicitly sexual relationship where the whole idea is that I don't develop too many emotions, then I don't see why inner beauty is really a relevant concept.

 

Well, there's one difference between you and me. We have to at least somewhat LIKE a person to have sex with them. Tape measures alone won't cut it.

 

Dan

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Keep in mind how many potential wonderful friendships never come to fruition because of snobs who won't entertain the thought of meeting overweight people. Sad, huh?

 

Are you looking for friends or are you looking for people to have sex with? When we look for friends we go looking where there are people that share our interests. We meet our friends at clubs where we can find people that are into the same music and nightlife that we are, or on the beaches where people are doing the sports that we're into. When we're meeting swingers it's because we're looking for people to have sex with. I'm sure that lots of the really flabby swingers out there are great people at heart, but that's just irrelevant to us if what we're looking for is sex.

 

Put it this way, do you respond to every single guy that writes to your ads? Lots of them are probably great guys and you could have a great friendship with them. You aren't looking for single swinger guys to try to have a buddy-buddy friendship with though, you already have friends. You eliminate them as sexual partners because they are single males, and so you aren't interested. It isn't sad that a potential friendship is being cut off, it's just that you aren't interested in them sexually.

 

If I went around refusing to speak to overweight people on the street then that would be sad. If my wife and I don't pursue swinging relationships with overweight people because we know that we aren't interested in having sex with them, then that's not sad, that's just using time efficiently.

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Guest everlast

What a frustrating topic! I didn't even know where to begin. It would seem the only reason someone would be upset that a couple is only looking for HWP people is because their not, and they "need not apply". Perhaps you feel slighted in someway, too bad.

 

Health is a lifestyle, it takes a lot of work, my wife and I both try to make it to the gym at least 3-4 times a week. It starts with turning off the TV. If someones carrying around an extra 10 pounds or so I don't think any one looking for HWP would care about that, but once you start pushing the 20-30lbs+ over your ideal weight .... yeah, well sorry..... not our fault.... you're overweight and (in our veiw) not as pleasing to the eye as you could be! (how is it we're the badguys now?)

 

To call someone shallow because they're not attracted to ...... "big boned" people is BS. Sorry, it's nothing against you as a person.... I'm sure you're interesting and all that, but you're overweight, and we are simply not attracted to you. So why would we want to have sex with people we're not attracted to?????

 

If that actually bothers someone, I would have to conclude they're actually upset with themselves for being overweight. Well don't lay it on us (the HWPers),... put down that remote, throw out that 'bag O chips' get that ass of the couch and do something about it....

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Ack! Not this topic again? Is it this topics time of the year already? My how time flies.

 

Ok I most likely shouldn’t post on this again, but what the heck I’m bored.

 

I have think that much of the animosity is due to the hurt feelings of the non-hwp for being excluded. Its one thing if people are rude to you because you are fat, but if they want to put adds saying hwp only, that’s their business, its what they want/like and its none of your concern. Hell by saying hwp they are trying to be ‘nice’ about it, since it sounds a heck of a lot better then ‘no fat chicks’. Maybe they are missing the best friends and greatest sex in the world by doing this but its their business.

 

Our adds have ALWAYS had HWP listed/implied somehow, because when it comes to sex fat doesn’t turn us on at all. Is that so wrong? Am I evil for this?

 

Interestingly, in the last couple of years the wife and I have put on a good number of lbs. We are not fat, but we are well on our way. Does this make us mad that couples that would have wanted to swing with us a couple of years ago wouldn’t want to now? Are we mad at them for being shallow? Hell no! We blame ourselves and are embarrassed about it. We have been very lazy with exercise and have been eating horribly for 2 years, what can you expect? We are both on diets now, and are working towards our ‘ideal’ weights we had at 21. Maybe by losing that weight you will be able to find some more great friends and great sex you are currently missing out on.

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Well, when I saw this thread, I thought I'd just read it and move on. After all, attraction is one of those things that can't be reasoned with. After reading some of the posts, however, I decided to weigh in with my two cents worth...

 

Two examples of how HWP is a steaming, fly-covered heap of horseshit:

 

Mari is 4'11". While I won't give mention her exact weight (partly because I'm not sure I know it and partly because I am not suicidal! lol), if you look up her height on one of those weight charts, she "SHOULD weigh between 93-100 pounds. Needless to say, she weighs a bit more than that. However, no one that I've met has ever said that they consider her fat. As a matter of fact, she's always getting comments from her friends that they are envious of her figure and the fact that she's so "thin". I'm attaching a pic of her at the end of the post. {EDIT: Apparently, either we aren't allowed to add pics to our posts or I did something wrong...sorry} Mari has a gorgeous figure...nice curvy hips, a small waist, and a very nice rack ;) To top it all off, she's got a smile that can knock you on your ass and a personality second to none. To those of you who are defending the whole HWP load of crap, I'd be willing to wager that if this woman, who according to the charts is at least 20 pounds overweight, came up to you in a club and started flirting with you, the last thing you'd be thinking about would be how to "ditch the fat chick." Hell yeah, I'd wager paychecks on that...

 

As for my story...I went to college on a wrestling scholarship. All throughout my career, I'd wrestled Heavyweight. Even at the high school level, I was a rather light heavy...my wrestling weight was usually around 220-230. However, at this level, my speed and strength more than overcompensated for this lack of weight. In college, however, I was being tossed around like a ragdoll by corn-fed farmboys that had to cut weight to make the 275 lbs. weight limit and they were not only big, but fast and strong as well. In order to try to save face, my scholarship, and my ass, I decided to try to drop down to the next lower weight class, 190 lbs. According to the weight charts, the ideal weight for someone my height (5'10") is between 155-185 lbs. Should have been easy then, right? Not quite. I got down to 210 lbs and the team doctor threatened to refuse to clear me to wrestle if I lost any more weight because my body fat was right around 7%. This effectively ended my wrestling career. I was a "tweener"...too small to wrestle with the big boys and too big to wrestle with the smaller ones. At any rate, my point is that you can't look at some numbers and determine "he's fat" or "she's a twig". Genetics, muscle content, body fat percentage...all these things can make that H/W chart as worthless as a Playboy in a blind reading room. Admittedly, I'm no longer the peak athlete I was 15 years ago, but even now when I tell people my weight, they don't believe me. Once, I had to actually get on a scale to prove I wasn't lying. I like to tell people I'm dense. :D That usually seems to satisfy them, although I suspect they agree for reasons other than my weight. :lol:

 

I have to agree with the sentiments posted by others here. Mari and I are VERY big into personalities. Yes, physical attractiveness is important, but as K pointed out, a great smile, enthusiasm, and a fantastic personality tend to overcome most "imperfections" that people may have. We are in the Lifestyle for sex. Period. We aren't looking for poly relationships and aren't even looking for new, lasting friendships (though we are open to the opportunity when it presents itself), yet we are open-minded enough to recognize that great things come in all different sized packages...

 

Cheers!

~Mike

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My interpretation of HWP is a loose definition that describes a person as not "turn off" overweight. Although one couple described 20 lbs excess baggage as too fat to be attractive to them, it obviously is not the case with most people.

 

As my son said to me when he was 6'2" with a 30 " waist, you are fat when your waist exceeds your trouser length. That was 15 years ago, and now he says he isn't fat, just short for his weight.

 

Some readers claim they're able to exclude any personal compatibility requirement to their experiences. We're not like that and frankly, can't understand just that much impersonality in anyone's sex. Drifting from the topic ? HWP is a "loose" definition

to people who think that personal compatibility is required to enjoy sex, as we absolutely do.

 

HWP has a more severe definition to those who are pursuing impersonal sex(?) regardless of compatibility.

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HWP does not mean as far as I've encountered the medical 'ideal' weight.

 

Hell my ideal weight where I look the best is about 15lbs over what some chart says I should be.

 

To us and all of the couples we have run into, its a nice way of saying 'not grossly fat', no folds, being able to see your own feet, well I think you get the idea.

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If all someone is looking for is looks then I dont see how their going to be worth spending time with because when the lights go out its not what you see but enjoying what happens and losing yourself into the sex and if your too worried how they look then you deffinetly arent going to be letting go to enjoy sex. Like they say dont judge a book by its cover, Some books are just the cover blank inside.

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We've played with five couples over the past twenty-two years. Three would be called "HWP" if not "slender." Another couple were both about ten pounds overweight, and the last were definitely a "BBW" and a "BBM." We had more fun with the "BB's" for sure but it was because they were "funner people" and really dug swinging, not because they were fat. Interestingly, the friendships with the HWPs didn't last, but we attribute that to other factors than weight. Sex with them was fun, though. Hmmm... We'd have to add, "with some exceptions," in the case of two.

 

In the past year or so, Mrs. Alura has lost over forty pounds. (My size twelve jeans are too big! I hope to look good in tens by late January.) It will be interesting to see if our next partner-couple is HWP or BBW&M. We've had lunch with an HWP lady and her BBM husband. They're cool people so something may come of this friendship eventually.

 

Mr. Alura is a guy who can eat anything he wants and does. His weight has never been more than five pounds over his weight in high school, cholesterol is low and all that other healthy stuff. (Doesn't that just make you sick? :) )

 

Maybe it's just that "birds of a feather fuck together"... ;)

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As far as inner beauty though, I'm looking for inner beauty when I'm looking for a love mate. When I'm looking for a partner for an explicitly sexual relationship where the whole idea is that I don't develop too many emotions, then I don't see why inner beauty is really a relevant concept.

 

Nail. Hammer. Head.

 

Basically on this subject, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you want HWP you're labeled by the fat people. If you want fat people, you're labeled by the HWP people. Shallow, wallow, kapooie. It's all a PREFERENCE and what turns YOU on. I think all those brunettes should uprise against those shallow blonde lovers. And oh my, the bald headed guys should form possies

 

It's is hilarious tho to watch all the waffling and the tiptoe-ing by those who post in this and the other weight threads.

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:eek: Oh my, what's the world coming to. I actually agree with Quin.:kissface:

 

Just remember though, no "bi-curious" in your ads.:D

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It is really all about personal preferences. We certainly don't feel insulted by people who put 'HWP' (however one defines it), nor do we think they are necessarily shallow. They're just expressing what gets them hot and bothered. We appreciate the honesty and simply move along, because we think people for whom that is important will probably not be interested in an ordinary looking, somewhat overweight, middle-aged couple (although we think we do have some redeeming qualities :lol: ). That doesn't make us right and them wrong, it just means we're looking for different things.

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I don't think that anyone should have to apologize for preferring one body type over another. Nor do I think that having minimum standards of physical attractiveness for sex partners is necessarily shallow (whatever that exceptionally amorphous word is held to mean) or in some way morally deficient. I've honestly never been able to see why thinking that personality or "inner beauty" is more important than physical attractiveness some how makes you a better person, or thinking that looks are very important makes you a worse one. Both are important (although, when it comes to sex, I would prefer the term "responsiveness" rather than "personality"), and I can't see any reason why one would be an inherently more valid selection criteria than the other.

 

More practically, people have the preferences they have, and you're never going to be able to change them by complaining about it. Post-classical western society has tried for more than a thousand years to change the sexual preferences of homosexuals using a variety of more or less Draconian measures, with very limited success. Telling people who insist upon HWP in their ads that they are "shallow" is unlikely to meet with much greater success.

 

However, I can also understand why overweight people would be a bit peeved by the morally superior tone that non-overweight people often use to them. Avoiding becoming overweight in a modern western society requires, for most people, a significant amount of conscious effort. I don't think that anyone should be made to feel that they are the children of a lesser God because they have chosen to devote their energies to other things, or simply because they've decided that it just isn't worth it. It's one thing to tell someone that HWP is the only thing you're looking for. It's quite another to tell them that they're hamburger and you're steak (a choice of analogy which, in and of itself, casts a certain ironic light on just how "choice" the person using it is).

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Ok, I have to put in my 2 cents here. I am really tired of people trying to "guilt" other people into their way of thinking. Just because my wife and I like healthy, fit, and average to slightly above average body-type people and find them aesthetically pleasing, why do we need to be made to feel "shallow" or "superficial"??? This is all about tastes and what you find attractive. Everyone is different! Why must we force our ideals and beliefs on others? I do not find obese or heavyset people sexually attractive, and neither does my wife. There. I said it. If you don't like that, I'm sorry, but I won't change my feelings for you. I won't lie and say, "uh, sure...I can live with it", and then deal with regret should anything become of the "relationship". In the same token, we have met some incredibly sexy and attractive women who are not exactly the posterwomen of fitness. It is all in how they present and carry themselves. We have been communicating with one in particular who isn't really what we would call "HWP", but she isn't "obese" either...kind of in middle ground.We all have a mutual attraction to each other, and we find her very sexy.

 

So let's just say this in conclusion: don't get ticked off if you see an ad where someone wants "HWP" people. If you don't meet that criteria, MOVE ON. As for the people out there who focus purely on the "HWP" tagline, you may be limiting yourselves and may be missing out on some people who don't consider themselves this, but are attractive and sexy just the same. ;)

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I am into the physical aspect of things, and although my life doesn't revolve around the gym, I spend alot of time there to keep in nice shape and take personal hygiene and grooming very serious. I prefer partners who are very well groomed and have decent bodies.

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Interesting to read the numerous replies to this post. Since we were the ones who began this thread, we'll try and formulate a response that hopefully is pertinent to most of the contributions given.

 

By all means, most of us have preferences when it comes to sexual partners, that's never been in dispute. However, we feel as though some swingers develop a tunnel vision of sorts, limiting themselves to a select and highly defined group of potential partners. As has been pointed out numerous times in this and other threads, this is about SEX, not searching for life partners. If one was looking for the latter, of course one would be much more selective than if seeking bed partners. But many ads out there give the impression they're looking either for perfection, or something awfully close to it. While describing themselves, the arrogance and self-importance fairly pours off the page for some of them, bragging they're a professional couple (are they looking for business partners?), exact measurements for various body parts, how many times a week they visit the gym, some even feel it necessary to mention their approximate income level. (It'd be a hoot if the IRS audited them over that). In any event, while we certainly recognize many have particular tastes and preferences, we feel there'd be far more success stories out there if some of you would loosen up and broaden your horizons a little by at least entertaining the possibility of looking beyond someone's weight.

 

For those who felt it necessary to mention in their reply the need to keep oneself fit, thanks for the advice but it's not needed. FYI, I (Dan) have been a bodybuilder for over 20 years, and with a chest measurement at least 10" larger than my waist, I look damned good for 45 years old. However, we NEVER mention this in any ads we post, neither of us feel it's pertinent in any way. My wife has battled her weight all of her life -- it's NOT a matter of her not caring about herself or her appearance, as so many conclude in their ads. This woman eats a third of what I do, her weight has nothing to do with her food intake. She unfortunately inherited her father's propensity for gaining weight easily with little regard to caloric ingestion.

 

New couples where at least one is overweight must be very discouraged to read through the ads typically found on internet sites.

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Originally posted by Regularguy

I prefer partners who are very well groomed and have decent bodies.

 

Are you saying anyone who has a body less than decent is less than well groomed? If not, perhaps you'd best reword that statement, lest you give the wrong impression.

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Dan,

 

I hate to write posts like contracts with all kinds of disclaimers....lol. People can be fat and well groomed, and people can have really athletic, fit bodies and be nasty and unclean.

 

I prefer the combination of in shape AND clean and well groomed.

 

Candiancouple,

 

People who are looking for physical perfection in swinging are just following human behavioral anthropology. Subconciously, we look for sex partners who will refine our gene pool and produce suprior offspring. Sure, conciously we know we are just having sex, but it would not fit the human experience to be as visually stimulated by an unattractive person as an attractive one.

 

Male bull elephant seals who can whip the crap out of all other bull elephant seals gets the right to mate with most of the female heard because is is the finest genetic specifime as of that date. The bird with the brightest plumage who can dance and parade the best is viewed as superior gentically by teh female bird, who then mates with them. A women views a man with a tight, muscular set of buns as gentically superior because it indictates strength and a higher testosterone level. A man with a lean, muscular physique with a broad, v shaped chest is viewed as superior in protecting and defending both her and her offspring. This makes such a male a superior evolutionary choice for her to mate with. Men usually perfer women with large breasts as it is viewed as being a better food supply, or smaller breasts with superior shape as it is viewed as youthful and youthful means more fertile. Both sexes veiw clear skin and bright eyes and straight teeth as a rapid indicator of general health.

 

We cannot undo what thousands of years of evolutionary natural selection has perfected in refining the gene pool which is critical to the survival of our species.

 

I do agree that why someone would post about their income, or other behaviors that are irrelevant seems weird, but it is just the old mating ritual.

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Regularguy --

 

First, I hope you realize I (Dan) am the male half of CanadianCouple. I only mention this because both tags were mentioned seperately in your last reply.

 

Interesting you mention the genetic markers that determine selection of mates throughout the animal kingdom, including man. However, that seems to further illustrate how some people take the selection of swinging partners a wee bit too seriously. We're talking about recreational sex for recreational purposes only, unless someone has a hidden agenda. Sure, an Alpha male with a tight set of buns instinctively draws a woman's attention, but if she's keeping the lifestyle in perspective she should be able to bear in mind it's simply about casual sex -- not finding a mate.

 

Dan

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Dan,

 

I reread my post and it looks as if I was replying to 2 different people when you are one in the same.

 

I got a kick out of the "are they looking for the business partner thing?!". I completely agree with you..... I know, perhaps prospective partners can forward their monthly profit and loss statements and other pertinent financials.

 

;)

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Originally posted by BostonDLT
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Dan,

She's be considering many other things about that man if he were to be a mate. BUT since it's just casual and recreational, what's wrong with her choosing someone who's physical appearance turns her on? Why does she have to "keep the lifestyle in perspective", as if it were a religion or political organization to which she must be prepared to make some sacrifice?? The maxim "live & let live" never seemed more fitting.

 

Susan

 

Susan -- I agree some measure of attraction must be present. However, there's a much broader picture I'm attempting to present. I'm not certain if you've read through this entire thread, or whether you've read through a similar one we started many months ago. There are so many ads out there that strongly insinuate being overweight is synonymous with being dirty, unkempt, sloppy, or just plain Jerry Springer trailer trash. Don't believe me? Take a look at some of the literary gems on Swappernet, just to name one site.

 

There is much more going on than just stating one's sexual preferences, a definite cliquish arrogance permeates a large percentage of ads that's nauseating to read. We have no qualms with anyone telling us no thanks, we've done it several times ourselves. But we're willing to give most any couple the opportunity to meet us if they wish to, we would never turn anyone down solely on their physical characteristics. Unless you're clairvoyant, you cannot know for certain if there's no attraction whatsoever unless you actually meet with someone, make an effort to get to know them somewhat. Last year we met with a local couple whom we had thought we had a lot in common with based on email and phone conversations, but in person they turned out to be the most pompous, arrogant egotists we've ever met in this.

 

Do you suppose such erroneous judgements also occur because someone's carrying extra weight on them? We sure do. Try looking beyond the tape measure, you might be pleasantly surprised.

 

Dan

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Originally posted by CanadianCouple

Try looking beyond the tape measure, you might be pleasantly surprised.

 

Dan

 

Absolutely, Dan! Besides that, things change. Even tape measurements. Had a certain husband followed your advice a couple of years ago he would now be occasionally holding in his arms a slender knockout of a lady instead of a BBW, who was a knockout in my eyes, even with the excess weight. I wonder if he and his wife ever found their HWP couple...

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Dan-

 

I usually both agree with and admire your efforts to get readers to think and respond. On this issue I have just a minor misalignment of attitude.

 

As I recall, you referenced the lack of appropriateness for exact physical compatibility when the goal is casual sex. I think the definition of casual sex is different for many of us and this is where the appropriateness of attitude differs.

 

As I stated in my previous post, some of us cannot have such impersonal sex as some others claim to have. For us, physical attraction is only part of the appeal of another person or couple.

 

So, I think its important to understand each person's definition of casual sex.

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Originally posted by Alura

Absolutely, Dan! Besides that, things change. Even tape measurements. Had a certain husband followed your advice a couple of years ago he would now be occasionally holding in his arms a slender knockout of a lady instead of a BBW, who was a knockout in my eyes, even with the excess weight. I wonder if he and his wife ever found their HWP couple...

 

His loss. I'm sure they did end up finding another HWP couple insisting on the same, the swinging world is full of vain people.

 

A side note on this issue -- I was just perusing more Swappernet ads, and came across this gem -- "No overweight people please, we have our standards."

 

Imagine, if you will, the following ad --

 

Sorry, no blacks, we have our standards."

 

Dan

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Originally posted by youngish56

Dan-

 

I usually both agree with and admire your efforts to get readers to think and respond. On this issue I have just a minor misalignment of attitude.

 

As I recall, you referenced the lack of appropriateness for exact physical compatibility when the goal is casual sex. I think the definition of casual sex is different for many of us and this is where the appropriateness of attitude differs.

 

As I stated in my previous post, some of us cannot have such impersonal sex as some others claim to have. For us, physical attraction is only part of the appeal of another person or couple.

 

So, I think its important to understand each person's definition of casual sex.

 

I think there's probably minor variations of the term casual sex, but for most people it would likely include any sex devoid of emotional attachment.

 

Dan

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At the risk of being dangerously honest, Dan, I can visualize many people making both discriminations. I remember you once warned me about not going there, but I can't control myself again.

 

In our physical preference "check list" didn't we select that ethnic

group that we wanted screened for us. Those of us who did not affirmatively select "black" did, by omission, select "not black".

 

In my opinion, our typical white lifestyle is both racist and politically correct. We claim to have no tolerance with discrimination, but we don't take advantage of those great real estate values and public schools in the ghetto.(sarcasm intended)

 

So, the black issue is entirely different from the weight issue. To compare the two, would only be valid on the most superficial level.

 

Gosh, sounds like we may have had our first spat. I hope it makes our "relationship" stronger.LOL

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Wait a minute, what is wrong with being selective? I practice discrimination everyday and proudly so like most people. as an example, I discriminate against males in the selection of partners. I discriminate against different foods. In fact I discriminate against all races except my own when it comes to sex. I will not date or play with anyone other then Caucasians. Do i think other races are good looking, sexy and attractive? yep. That is just my own personal preference when it comes to dating and mating. Apparently most people must feel the same as I do, as most people marry someone of their own race.

 

So if I were to run a singles ad, it would in fact say Caucasians only, no parapalegics, no women with hairy anything, none with false teeth, none with communicable diseases...gee, where do I stop?

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There are frequently exaggerated resonses to any post that suggests a person's position on the race topic.

 

I believe it has a lot to do with the anonymity of the responder and his or her personal agenda.

 

I agree with everyone's right to be selective but the causes for preferring Caucasian are not from the same criteria as weight. In agreement with what you said, I find Mexican women mysteriously attractive, but I have no lust for sex with them, no matter their weight. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" etc.

 

I support your position that being selective is both normal and healthy, only wanted to suggest that a fat Mexican girl has two reasons I won't chase her. She can lose weight, the other she cannot change. Not her fault, and I'd expect she has the same prejudice toward me. Normal stuff.

 

This site experiences an occasional occurance of personal attacks from some members. Don't be surprised if such posts follow.

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Youngish and regular --

 

I believe you're both missing my point. It's one thing to state in your ad that you and your partner wish to stay within your own ethnicity when searching for other bed partners. It would be quite another to bluntly proclaim anyone of a different race does not meet your standards.

 

And this was the analogy I was attempting to illustrate relating to the weight issue. Often it's not the message, but how it's delivered.

 

Dan

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apologies Dan -

 

Went back and reread your posts and now, with your guidance, I see that I did miss the point.

 

Your point is well taken, I agree with you, and I guess we haven't had our first spat yet.

 

A lesson learned. I dislike when others react to something I didn't say, and that is exactly what I did.

 

Let me double my efforts now.

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Reading all the replies in this discussion has been quite intriguing. Here's our feeling on the issue of being selective when choosing who to play with someone...

 

For us, it's not that we automatically exclude anyone that is of a certain weight, ethnicity, etc. What someone's personality is like - if they have integrity, if they're respectful, and if they're are fun to be around - is absolutely important. But chemistry is also very important for us - and either the chemistry is there or it's not. We don't really choose that part.

 

It just so happens that we find ourselves most often drawn to couples that are most like ourselves: late twenties to early thirties, moderately fit, fairly attractive (though of course, beauty is always in the eye of the beholder!). However, if we meet a couple that is of another age, race, or body type, and the chemistry is there, great!

 

While we personally feel that excluding other couples right from the start because of one of the above mentioned issues would cause us to miss out on meeting some really great people, we absolutely respect any reason anyone has for wanting - or not wanting - to paly with someone else, including us.

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Guest everlast

It seems as though it might just be the expression HWP that is the problem. There seems to be quite a few posts here where people state they look best when they're X lbs over or under their 'ideal' weight, and sound to me like they fit the HWP definition as I perceive it.

 

It might be better to post 'no overweight people' instead. This might not be as nice, but it paints a clearer picture. Deep down I think most people know if they're overweight or not and certainly wouldn't want to face that kind of rejection if they tried to meet up with someone who was only interested in 'thinner' (for lack of a better word) people

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Everlast Wrote:

 

It might be better to post 'no overweight people' instead. This might not be as nice, but it paints a clearer picture.

 

Of course, the danger of using "overweight" is that it has a specific medical definition (BMI > 25). As such, it's not the most usefull term when were talking about cosmetic perceptions of being "fat". Some people (usually women) can still look cosmetically "fat" even with BMI 25. In fact, most men probably look better with a higher rather than a lower BMI, providing that they are muscular and not gutular.

 

Sometimes I think that it would be better just to say "no fat people" in an ad. It may seem more insulting, but in reality that's what everone means. It's ultimately a subjective, cosmetic judgement, and that's certainly what the word "fat" conveys. At least it doesn't beat arround the bush in a faux attempt to be sensitive.

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I agree that most men would be surprised about how much the little hottie weighs. I've actually argued with some that don't believe my weight. I am a very muscled person because I worked on a farm growing up and still do pushups and situps everynight to stay in shape. Most would guess my 5'8'' frame at about 150 lbs, when in reality I wear about 180. I am overweight by the chart standards, but not by appearance. muscle weighs more then fat. Yet even carrying 180, my stomach is flat.

 

I still always describe myself as chubby because I'd rather they be pleasantly surprised then to think I'm a little thing and then see I'm not thin. I also describe us as an average pleasant looking couple for two reasons. One is anything more just sounds conceited and again, I'd rather they expect average and be pleasantly surprised at our looks.

 

Too many times I've had someone describe themselves as a knockout or in great shape, to be disappointed when we meet. I'd rather they be a little more honest when writing and then be pleasantly surprised later. I don't mind a man with a bit of a beer belly as long as I'm expecting it.

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