Why swinging is not for me

Hi folks...

The Husband and I haven't been on a while, sorting things out and deciding where we needed to go next. We were swinging up until December and pretty active when complications evolved and we both stepped back to take a good look at things... and have since decided this is not the permanent road for us. Me probably more surely than the mister... he recently thought "Maybe we could do it again in a few years" as recently as mid-February... Grrrrr... so we are STILL having complications from this lifestyle, though working hard to get past some things and integrate its lessons. My biological clock is tickin' and my little one's turning three soon, and I've really wanted to expand our family but unfortunately, that's another thing on hold as we try and move out of the aftershocks of our experiences last Fall. Take heart, newbies!

I have been so wanting to forget things that I wasn't going to come back... unfortunately I keep getting chased in my dreams so I think there's something I needed to come back and do. Closure, I suppose? I might reflect what some other woman is thinking, and I might be able to give a man insight into their wife's heart. Who knows. I do know that even though people experience very painful things with this lifestyle, they often just keep on going, turned on and probably not thinking right. So while there are many couples who apparently make swinging work for them, the advice here is great, the people here are supportive, and communication is an absolute MUST.... sometimes you can talk all damn day and you're just speaking Greek while they're in Chinese. You can translate all day... but something gets lost along the way. Men are from Mars and women are from Venus, right?

What I've Learned:

1) Follow your gut. No negotiating. This is, as far as I'm concerned, the most important factor. My first and second reaction to Husband's prodding to look at this lifestyle were very negative, and came straight from my instincts, which, if you believe in the subconscious, indicates what are our deepest, truest feelings. By his third shot... I negotiated the idea. Yes, You Who Want To Swing have the right to nicely ask, and to gently suggest, and timidly quote... blah, blah, blah... we've all read the advice. But pressure is pressure by any other name. It was obviously boring at home for him, and I felt threatened, and more open to suggestion. It has also been accurately said here that feelings cannot be rationalized, and I'm in that camp. I have never been a shrinking violet, was always the "aggressor" in getting a date... even when swinging I was the lead. I speak up in meetings at work... that's the mask I wear to the world. I am fearless. And yes, the first two times he brought it up I gave him a predictably negative, emotional response. I guess he just thought I was so "tough" that I could handle it. But where there is a hard shell there is a soft bodied interior. I suppose he was just trying to wear me down or de-sensitize me or something, but I don't think Husband accurately determined how sensitive the ego is, and how much I'd be willing to sacrifice or do for my marriage when I felt truly threatened, emotionally threatened, however primitive or insecure that makes me. I love my husband. And I don't think he anticipated the changes that came with that, because as we went on, I got more comfortable with it while he was having a more and more difficult time with it--specifically, watching me. So guys, if you are the guy trying to convince your wife... you are best advised that there is something to be given up for every pleasure you attain. And you cannot anticipate them, neither one of you... I mean we are talking about sex, love and spouses--it's a veritable minefield.

2) As we got into things, even different situations... it began to lose its "shine." It really began to be like a drug. An addiction. We keep upping the ante, and looking for more. It was consuming our lives... it took over our hobbies. We were obsessed with sex! Tired and slacking at work. The positive is that we had a shared hobby that we were having fun with together.... well, you can accomplish that with racketball. We both agreed that you Are what you Do. And we both began asking ourselves, "What do I want to go to my grave saying I accomplished? That I f--ked a lot?" I guess one could say we could just slow it down and do it every once in a while... but we both found it takes a certain mindset that is hard to take on and off at will and that's why it becomes a "lifestyle."

3) We both found ourselves asking; When the door of possibility is open to sleep with other people, and suddenly the whole world becomes a playground... what makes me so special? The kids? The house? The laundry? Yes, the person who will clean up your puke and bring you soup when you're sick is priceless... but are they sexy? Is that whose pants you can't wait to get into, that you're working so hard to get into, on Saturday night? Shouldn't it be? I began to think about all the time and work and effort we were putting into swinging, time we were spending together, but ultimately I couldn't get away from the fact that it was so he could wet his willy somewhere else... how ironic is that? I felt like I was living in Bizarro world. As much as you are in it together, there is still the goal of at some point getting it on with OTHERS (and yes sometimes I was as excited about the other people, too), and I just really wondered how great our relationship would be if we spent that effort on each other, exclusively, instead.

4) This lifestyle is very much connected to earthly pleasures... the ego. It is very much about power... shared power, relented control, taking control-- how you share it in a partnership... and of course I have always been fascinated by the subject of power, and what it means to really have it truly, personally. I gained a lot of satisfaction from putting on the Venus role for a while. What woman doesn't want to be Venus, even for a while? And guys too... come on, who doesn't want to be Eros, or Mars? (sorry, I'm an archetypist!) Becoming a swinger is like big ole bottle of Insta-Sex Star... as others have surmised even here, it's like being yours or your spouse's personal porn star. It was a potent elixir... it made me feel powerful. But when I really looked at things, it wasn't where I wanted to be powerful. Again, going back to archetypes and my goddess shit... at the end of the day, I want to be Penelope, not Circe; Demeter, not Aphrodite (though husband insists she is part of my make-up . Venus is, after all, the Pantheon representative of infidelity, and venereal disease.

In my heart, there is something to Virtue and Value and being the Only One that appeals to me. In guy language... I'd rather be a proudly owned Mercedes than a Beamer rental any day of the week. You can take the girl out of the South... but you can't take the Southern Belle outta the girl. My pussy is regal and you're lucky to get past the front door.

5) As far as the moral in sharing... I share a lot of things. I share my time with people I like, I watch my friends' kids, I give my hands in donation to a local environmental cause, and when there's a smoking circle going down, I'm happy to share my stash. But sharing my husband? How much are we really asking, here? I remember hearing a quote once that went, "You can go one place with a hundred people, or a hundred places with one person." And you make a choice about that. Well, I didn't have any delusions the day I married about making this person the One. In a very base way, it broke my heart for him to ask to be with others... just the suggestion. Just the truly desired thought on his part. The act for me, then, could never really be destroyed until I went to meet it.

And generally... my preferences in life, something I conveniently thought I could change or rationalize, has always, always been depth of experience, not breadth. On a trip through Europe with friends five years ago, I was the person (and Husband) who chose to spend nine days in Amsterdam soaking up the city, seeing the Van Gogh and the Anne Frank house and sailing the canals, while my friends hopped through four different cities, losing luggage, getting kicked out of cabs and generally having an otherwise shitty time. Quality over quantity, I will choose it every time. The moral being, please look at the overall fabric of your life before going down this path. We both kept finding that the best sex was *always* with each other... so what were we looking for?

6) There are things in this lifestyle that hurt, pure and simple. One of the main problems is jealousy... hurt... pain... and those who struggle with it--it comes up over and over again. I did, my husband did with me. Yet, even as I pored over all the threads of this site last fall, I couldn't help but wonder.... why? Why keep on? And, as literary as she usually isn't... a lyric by Madonna popped into my head; "Pain is a warning that something's wrong." And I know that what I did, and maybe what other women *might* be inclined to do... is numb yourself. To talk yourself down out of that emotion. It may be right for some people, or maybe those two are more easily extricated for others... but separating love and sex to such an extent and degree that you just don't even care anymore... well, it bothered me. And look... pain is a warning to take your friggin' hand out of the fire. Without that feedback... you can really hurt yourself. And this lifestyle is, as many have said, "Purification by Fire."

7) Religion... well I am a pagan but I have a big thing for Mary Magdalene, having grown up as a child of the Christian Church (and I bring this up b/c there are threads here of how people see swinging spiritually) and finally coming back around to her story, being so popular in culture right now. Strong, intelligent, Christian women identify a lot with Mary M. these days because she adds the Sexual element to the Holy. I got away from the Holy part. While I don't see swinging or open marriage as something I would ever advocate, I am not going to stop anyone for whom it works. All I want is the room to live my archetype. And I have been trying so hard to re-claim both the archetypal "Whore" and "Mother" in one being, in my own home, in my life... that I forgot the core of a few things about Mary M.... she was never really a whore, and when she was, it was to one, very special man.

'Nuff said

Sincerely,

Tempest

Tempest,

You post a very well thought out and articulate article. I'm very sorry that you went through things the way that you did, that you discovered apparently quite painfully that the "lifestyle" was not meant for you.

I will not resign myself to a counter argument. In fact I applaud you because you yourself did what many people in the world contemplate and lose sleep over, and found the strength to discover for yourself that it was not for you.

You know for yourself that your husband is the One, the only one you ever desire to be with and to love. I say to you, hold onto that feeling for the rest of your life, and remember that feeling, and use it to keep your marriage strong.

I also say this. Forgive yourself. You chose to explore a side of life that truly is not for everyone in this world. Anything you did, that happened in your experiences will make you a much stronger person in the long run.

Overall, after my rambling, I say this:

"May the best of your past be the worst of your future"

You guys have it all over me in the smarts dept. and I thank you both for your depth of insight. Tempest, you make a lot of valid points and for someone like you it just didn't work out the way it can for others. I certainly do applaud your efforts and I see a lot of US in your story.

Hope you won't disappear completely, but I guess that's part of the deal. You seem strong enough to hang around, but what would be the point, eh?

Good luck to you in that place called future.

Thank you for your very thoughtful post, Tempest. There are several parts of it that I disagree with, however, simply because I just do not look at things the same way. When it's said that this lifestyle is not for everyone, you and your husband are perfect examples of that. Do I believe that anyone CAN do it with enough hard work? Sure! But for some, the distance from where we are to swinging bliss is much much farther than they feel like going. There's no point in pushing so hard and so far...especially when they just don't want to go there in the first place.

Many of the things you spoke negatively about, like needing to numb one's self, or feeling as though you have to sacrifice some part of yourself to do this for example, are not concepts that I can relate to. But then that's just different people for ya. We see it as a gift we give to one another, not something we guiltily ask for. The polarity is reversed. I am so in love with this man for giving me back control over my own sexuality, that I would grant him anything he asked. Anything. I make no assumptions about your relationship, but this is the way mine works, and why swinging is such a good fit for us. Spiritually, I'm a bit of a rebel. I'm Christian, but I have serious doubts that God and Jesus are the stuffy, obsolete, reserved traditionalists that I think many people see Them as. After much meditation, I've come to terms with my sexuality, and my inner "whore". I've done that by rising above the term "whore", as I believe a whore is someone who abuses those parts of herself (physical, emotional, mental, spiritual) which she should respect, for the sake of worldly gain. I certainly don't feel like a whore, even if I AM open to having sex with more than one person.

Well, we wish you luck in your endeavours, and hope that you guys can fully heal from your experiences.

Tempest419 said:

I do know that even though people experience very painful things with this lifestyle, they often just keep on going, turned on and probably not thinking right.

I remember the issues from this fall for you guys - and I am sorry that you both had to go through them. It was obvious from some of your very early posts that you two struggled to be on the same page with this and in that you have provided a much needed lesson for those who are curious about - and interested in adding - swinging in their relationships.

Swinging is not about power - one over the other. It is about communication, respect and having a "partners in crime" attitude that allows the both of you to define and mold this activity in a way that brings pleasure to you both, for a season.

I was reading an article today that said that based on research, non-monogamous unions are 320% more durable than monogamous ones. But still, the world still points to the train wrecks with eyes wide open and an "A-ha!" in the air. But, the train wrecks are the noisy, ugly, often bloody exceptions to the rule...

When you can not communicate, will not open up, and approach the lifestyle with selfish motives - you are heading for a disaster. When you disrespect your spouse's feelings by telling them that how you want it is the way it should be - or use emotional abuse to coerce them into swinging - or attempt to create polyamourous relationships without the support and understanding of the others involved... Well - that's just asking for trouble...

When done right - swinging removes sex as the central mystery of marriage and replaces it with deeper interpersonal - often spiritual - exploration of your soul mate, which is a greater, richer, more rewarding mystery...

The lesson for people considering the lifestyle would be this - make sure that you and your spouse are on the same page. Make sure you are both going into it for reasons that you both have been 100% honest about and 100% accepting of. If you do not, you may find yourself on the confusing end of an archetype...

Wow very interesting thread! We are very much rookies and this is a hot topic for us. Without going into detail hubby and I discuss these "what if" feelings all the time. We are in a little bit of a different situation. Neither one of us has ever had other partners. With no other experience the lifestyle is something that intrigues us very much to make sure that all of our wants and needs are met. I can respect the fact Tempest that you decided to leave. That being said you still experienced it. I am sure when it was fun and new you both enjoyed yourselves a great deal. Maybe it is not for us either but isn't the experience, good or bad, worth it? Did swinging make your marriage better? Granted you didn't like it but you and your hubby cherish each other more now. You did it together and that is the most important fact. We know so many couples that are divorced because they have affairs on each other (my father included!!) all becuase they thought the grass was greener on the other side. I know that if the grass is greener on the other side my hubby is going to be there to experience it with me. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't but we still feel that it is still worth the try. We'll never know if it works for ourselves unless we experience it. To me I don't think that is a bad thing for us to ponder over or try. These questions and points you bring up are more fuel to feed our fire as we sort this out ourselves. Thank you very much and best of luck.

Its interesting how something so well written and so obviously true for someone else is so completely wrong for us.

1) Follow your gut. No negotiating.

I suppose this depends on who you are, sometimes my gut is the best way to go, sometimes its a liar

2) As we got into things, even different situations... it began to lose its "shine." It really began to be like a drug. An addiction.

I can understand this really, but it happens in ANY hobby to spend to much energy on. When we feel we have been swinging 'too much' we take a break. It is just a hobby and we have other hobbies.

3) We both found ourselves asking; When the door of possibility is open to sleep with other people, and suddenly the whole world becomes a playground... what makes me so special?

For me, its that she is who she is.

4) This lifestyle is very much connected to earthly pleasures... the ego. It is very much about power... shared power, relented control, taking control-- how you share it in a partnership... and of course I have always been fascinated by the subject of power, and what it means to really have it truly, personally.

Maybe it is what you found attractive in it, but this doesn't even register with our thinking.

5) As far as the moral in sharing.

Sharing with others again is not our motive.

6) There are things in this lifestyle that hurt, pure and simple.

Facing my green eyed monster and slaying it was the best thing in swinging for me.

7) Religion..

Again does not register as a motive or detractor to us.

I post this not to pick apart your post as it is true for YOU. It just goes to show that in fact swinging is not for everyone.

Tempest,

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. It's as important for someone like you, who chooses to "opt out" of the lifestyle to vocalize the whys and wherefores of your decision making process, as it is for those of us who choose to explore further in this "hobby." It's all about learning from each and every experience in life, and this is what you are doing. Try not to regret, but use it as stepping stone to where life takes you next.

Some of this rings so true for what we have experienced, and I'm sure you have also helped others who will not post their thoughts, but just read what you have written and take what they need of your words into their hearts. It's obvious that you have really thought this out and I agree with everyone else who has expressed admiration for your erudite self-expression. Bravo!

Thanks for sharing and may your journey through life be rewarding. Goodluck!

Tempest,

Thank you for sharing with us your thoughts and the reading you have on the lifestyle for you.

As it has been told, I hope to fit here the expression "what doesn't kills you, makes you stronger", in this case for your marriage. And from what I read, I believe you two will have a better relationship because of how you processed your experience.

What I find more valuable of your post is something worth to point out and take into account, moreover for curious people who may consider swinging, and it is how swinging it tightly related with the values we have, our philosophy, and at last, with the existential problem.

You made a very clever correlation between those things, and when I disagree with your conclusions was because I realized we have a very different point of view about life.

I agree with you about guys coming from Mars and gals from Venus, although the Venus from your archetype differs from the one in mine. I'd say your archetype one was made in Mars, while I'd correlate my archetyped venus with the White Goddess, the Nature, the Life itself.

Thinking about my archetypes, I'd say we, guys, coming from Mars, were the ones wanting to own the life generation habitably belonging to Venus. We needed to do this because of our own existential problem, to die in peace after reassuring we leave a legacy witnessing our short existence, a problem gals doesn't know nor have to face since they have such a reassurance for granted by nature. So we come from Mars and end up doing the only we can about this: take control over Venus, decide when she will do what she can do in a way able to "proof" their legacy is our legacy.

The whole conception about "fidelity" and "monogamy" was developed in Mars, as it was the technology leading our civilization: we force the Nature to do thing the way we want it to happen, and not the natural way. We forced the land to produce food at our own peace, as we force the Venuses to produce kids at the peace we wanted them to do it. We exchanged Venuses for goods along history. Marriage was a way to negotiate deals between families ran by Martians. Later on we were unable to prevent these Venusines to be seen as humans, so we developed in Mars the romantic conception for Love, and I mean a conception functional to the preexistent "fidelity" and "monogamy" concepts (BTW, Martians accepted polygamy in some cultures, bot only when one Martian was able to own several Venusses, not otherwise).

Now, most of us stick to this conception, even if being aware of it, because it's the only known ground we have to step over. To be swingers we have to position ourselves in some place regarding to Mars and Venus. We may build a personal conception about Love tho set it apart from sex, the more we manage to set them apart, the more likely we'll talk about recreational sex, or we may not try to set them apart and we could end accepting polyamoral relationships. To some extent, it seems to me that you took the former way, and once deprived from love, the sex became empty of meaning and a waste of energy worth to be inverted in loving.

I am telling this because we both, when listening from some swingers how and why they set apart sex from love, it sounded to us these settings were somehow artificial, as if they were shifting the "fidelity" boundary position instead of making and in depth redefinition for it, and as if you were able to control your feelings in a way that, at lease we know we cannot and wouldn't like to control.

Who do you love the most, Mommy or Daddy? Do I love my friends? Why do we need to tell we love our spouse more than some good friends of us? And when we say so, which aspects of that thing we call "love" are the ones affected by this "more"? Ok, darling, you have my permission granted to fuck with someone else, as long as I am the one you love, against a "vanilla" premise, you have the right to love your friends as long as I am he only one you fuck with. The order of the factors doesn't change the outcome, am I wrong? It seems to be the same sort of artifact devised to reassure we have an special place in our beloved one's heart, while at the same time we say swinging is a matter of trust... but if I trust my wife, if I know she loves me and that she's honest about her feelings towards me, why should I devise an artifact, either of them?

And I am not telling we doesn't need any artifact, I don't know if it's even possible to develop a relationship without this sort of artifacts. What I know is, an artifact is able to malfunction under some circumstances. Both the swingers artifacts and the vanilla ones can fail, you cannot guarantee they will work like a Swiss watch for the entire lifetime, and if it fails, then the trust in each other is the only thing that would enable the couple to fix it, or build a new artifact more equitable for the relationship.

And I believe this is something worth to point out, because most of us began with a "vanilla" style artifact, we change it for another one to be able to approach the lifestyle, and we may change it over and over (even going back to a "vanilla" style one) to fulfill our marriage requirements and keep building the relationship. But if someone's artifact prior to engaging in swinging is weak, then the most likely is that the new one you'll make to fit the lifestyle would be even more weaker.

In your first point you give us a good insight of where your original artifact was weak. As for you, there were things that were not negotiable that became negotiable under the subtle pressure you described. You perceived yourself as "being boring to him", and I guess that dign't you gave too much to bargain in the negotiation, you played "tough" behind a hard shell hiding the soft bodied interior, after feeling emotionally threatened by your husband, who in turn was unable to accurately determine how sensitive the ego is... all of this can be seen as a lack of communication.

We advice to talk, talk, and talk, but we cannot say (perhaps it isn't so clear even for who's giving the advice) to what extent to talk, that it's important to dig deeper and deeper in every answer we provide to every question we have, that we should be able to play the role of the devil advocate when talking, instead of striking to the first answer we get that fits our immediate desires. Also, and even when into the lifestyle, that it is important to try to foresight the long term consequences of what we're doing, try to find out where our current artifact is weak as to be able to diagnose if it's working as both of use expects it to work.

But all of this is true even for a "vanilla" artifact. As for you two, today, Tempest, I am concerned about what you described in the first point, because even with this current artifact you may end up finding yourself threatened with a subtle pressure to negotiate something you don't want to, moreover because of your insecurities you seem to know you have few chances to make a good deal (if you knew you can get a good deal in any bargain, you won't be hesitating to negotiate, the hesitation comes from the certainty that you will en up loosing the bargain). Since this seems to be the weakest point, I'd tell you to pay attention to this and to understand that there are no such thing as a subtle pressure, there are pressure, and eventually this pressure that may lead to disaster, and no matter how subtle it is, you two have to learn to recognize and avoid it.

Communication is important (if not the key factor) in any relationship, and it doesn't matter if "vanilla" or swinger, making the best effort to communicating all and everything that makes each one of you uncomfortable inside the relationship, for tinny and insignificant it may seems to be at first, worth the price.

I wish you good luck in this new stage in your marriage. Intelligence and bravery are required to express your thoughts the way you did, and if you keep doing so, I am pretty sure you wouldn't need the luck.

Tempest,

It is truly great news, that you and your husband have found resolution !!! You came here, asked for input, incorporated what fit, made a mental note of the rest, and figured out what was best for your life and who you (as a couple) are. CONGRATULATIONS !!!! That is what life is all about (to me)

Dbl D had said that he hoped you would stay... I will point blank ask you to PLEASE STAY AND POST. Most "Former" swinger posts are nasty and troll-like offering no real input, you on the other hand have done it all right, and I think your opinion is priceless!!

again Job Well Done!

All I can say is "WOW!" As a newbie, I have been somewhat confused about what I want to get out of this lifestyle and whether or not it's truly for me. I think I may have figured out what my man wants out of it... sex with anyone and everyone that will have him, with my permission. Obviously, that's not going to do anything positive for our relationship. After reading lots and lots of posts and especially this post, I asked myself a question... would I be in this lifestyle if I wasn't with my man? I think that's a really important question. It helps us to determine within ourselves if this lifestyle is something we can truly enjoy without guilt and/or moral prejudice. My answer to that question is a resounding YES. I thoroughly enjoy being with people who are so open and honest within their own sexuality. And when a couple can share this experience with each other for all the right reasons, it makes for a wonderful experience for everyone involved. Thank you Tempest, and everyone who has posted, for all the insight. You have all helped me a great deal in determining what I need to do next.

Some great posts here. I know, I know, I posted already, but sereneiders post just triggered a thought: What if coercion is not something that others do to us? What if it's something we allow others to do to us?

In a swinging context, refusing to allow someone to coerce you into something (eg: allowing your partner to "have sex with anyone and everyone who will have [him/her].") would mean that you would have to decide to decide what you were and were not okay with and not allow yourself to be persuaded otherwise...regardless of the means used to "persuade" you. This would mean that if your partner so disrespected you that he/she forced you to choose between the relationship and conceding to his/her selfish desires at the expense of your (mental, spiritual, physical, emotional) health, you would have to stand your ground and say, "To hell with that! I respect myself too much to play a whore, lending out bits and pieces of my soul just to keep someone around who refuses to respect me!" I have had sex with other men - women too! - but I am no one's whore. It's not so much what one does that makes her the whore; it's why and how she does it. I am certain that there are plenty of women in the sex industry who regularly earn an income from selling their bodies, who have more dignity and self-respect than some PTA-council-den-mother-Mercedes-SUV-driving women who live in affluent suburbs, screwing the pool boy behind hubby's back while he's at a conference in Europe. Big difference between selling sex and selling out. At least, that's my opinion. (And yeah, those are stereotypes. I made them that way on purpose.)

Something I wanted to address in Tempest's post that I didn't before:

3) We both found ourselves asking; When the door of possibility is open to sleep with other people, and suddenly the whole world becomes a playground... what makes me so special?

This is one of the best things about swinging. What makes me so special? Knowing for certain that my husband chooses to be with me because of ME...not because he gets pussy whenever he wants it. I don't have to wonder or worry anymore if I'm the best lover in the whole wide world...I KNOW I'm not! And you know what? Knowing that isn't as horrible as I once thought it would be. Do you really think he's going to leave you when he finds out that you're NOT the best lay in the world? Hey, I'm not saying I can't hold my own in the bedroom (and I've gotten plenty of compliments to prove it), and he and I have a familiarity that just can't be duplicated. But I realize that other women may be better at some things sexually than I am. But I'm equally sure that my own skill in certain areas may exceed theirs. So we're even. It's not a matter of being "better than" your "competition"; it's just different.

So if he's not here for the sex...what else is he sticking around for? If this question frightens you, if it seems threatening, perhaps it should be explored further. Do you have REASON to be afraid that he wouldn't choose you again? I mean, it's what you're asking him to do. "Honey, you have your pick of any woman in this room. You're free to have sex with any and all of them. [Keep in mind that some will be better at some things sexually...] Why, with all of these beautiful, intelligent, interesting women, would you choose to come home with me?" Again, it's just my opinion, but I think there's nothing wrong with being on one's toes where character is concerned. You can "let yourself go" in more ways than one. We associate "letting one's self go" with expanding waistlines and sedentary ways, but not developing yourself as a person, continuing to grow intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually, you are cheating your partner out of the enjoyment of living with a beautiful person. Outer beauty is great, and it's part of the package, but we all age and our bodies wind down. When it comes down to the wire, inner beauty is what goes the distance.

Overall, it was an excellent post. It mirrors many of the concerns my ex- and I had after 7 years in the lifestyle.

So often, people just drop-out of the lifestyle. They stop coming to parties or clubs, don't answer e-mails, don't return calls. If you happen to meet up with them at a non-swinger event, they'll just say "We're taking a break." Too often, it seems, that "break" has something directly or indirectly to do with swinging. It's not often that someone takes the time to 'fess up, and reveal exactly what led them to their decision to place swinging on hold...maybe forever.

Tempest 419 - I hope you'll continue to post in here, as you're perceptions of the lifestyle and the people in it "from the other side," that is, as a "former swinger," would be very interesting to read also.

The only way to really see some things is from a distance...

I was always puzzled when I heard that swinging wasn't for everyone. I'm not any more. It seems it wasn't for you. I think that a big advantage with this lifestye is that the people in it are generally more honest with their partners, on all levels, and that allows for the building of stronger relationships. This is my first exposure to you and your point of view but I'd say that you are no different in this respect. I hope that you and your husband continue to talk openly about sex and continue to grow together. Best wishes.

JnCC said:

So often, people just drop-out of the lifestyle. They stop coming to parties or clubs, don't answer e-mails, don't return calls. If you happen to meet up with them at a non-swinger event, they'll just say "We're taking a break."

The fact that they would discuss swinging in a non-swinger (AKA vanilla?) situation is something in itself. Just curious; did you actually ask them for a reason why they were taking a break?

JnCC said:

Too often, it seems, that "break" has something directly or indirectly to do with swinging. It's not often that someone takes the time to 'fess up, and reveal exactly what led them to their decision to place swinging on hold...maybe forever.

It occurs to me that the particulars of their decision to swing are nobody's business but their own. They don't owe anyone anything, and an explanation shouldn't be expected. It's their life and they are free to do what they will. If it became obvious to Mr. intuition and I that their relationship was troubled, and it appeared that they were swinging in spite of that - maybe even to try an "fix" it - we, of course, would politely decline playing with them...not giving a specific reason. As you say JnCC, sometimes you have to be on the outside looking in to appreciate that the entirety of a problem.

We're in the middle of self-imposed play-break, ourselves. Is it a break, or is it the end? Whichever it is, I just can't fathom how that is of any importance to anyone...even our playmates.

Intuition,

I believe I understand what JnCC said here. For example, It may be true that no one owes us anything, but I feel we owe a lot of things to some couples, moreover in our beginnings. People who took the time to talk with us, first at chat rooms, then face to face, just to provide us the same sort of advice people get here, and without second intentions nor trying to push us into their beds. These couples gave us valuable insights, helped us understand the codes, show the same interest in the personal issues we disclosed openly with them than a a lot of forum members who does the same whit anyone expressing a doubt or a problem. They didn't needed to do this, but they did and it was a gift we treasure and we are thankful for. These people taught us swingers have that high moral standards that impressed me and made me want to have them as friends. And if some odd thing happens to us in this path, we wouldn't blame them, moreover, we'll be still as thankful as we are today.

If at some point we'd take a break that makes them miss us, I feel they deserved the right to know what's going on, and earned our confidence as to let them know. This feedback would be a way to be respectful with people who was extremely respectful with us.

Of course, this doesn't happens with all the swinger couples we've meet since then, but from time to time some other couple appears and earns the same credits.

Yes, we know we have the right to say "it's not your business, dude", and we'd be being unnecessarily rude. In the worst case, we would be saying "we run into some troubles inside our marriage and we need to review all of this. Excuse me if I don't give you all the details, it's too private/painful to talk about it".

So, giving feedback when you want to split is a way to express the appreciation and gratitude you have towards these people. And this is what I think Tempest did here, and I appreciate both the in depth explanation AND her attitude toward us.

Saying that it's worthless to tell what happens, that "it isn't our business", could mislead someone into thinking what Tempest did lacks a big part of it value, would be to deprive Temtest from a gratitude gesture she may feel she owe to us. It is like when you invite someone to dinner because you want to show appreciation or gratitude, but at the end that one picks the bill and end up buying a dinner you planned to buy yourself. This someone would be depriving you from you right to express your appreciation and gratitude, and keeping (if not increasing) your debt feelings.

In the other hands, it's at least noticeable what JnCC said, that people take a break and fade away without feeling the need to explain to anyone, and besides being a valid complain, it enhance Tempest attitude. By pointing out or appreciation for her feedback to us, we'd be encouraging others to do the same.

3 years we have been looking into swinging....

this is the first time i actually got my toes in the water

we are grandparents...there is no issue of 'mo youngins'

we are adults and we are desiring other folk to hang out with and have some fun.....

could b sexual...always sensual

i understand this soul reasoning and i am thankful for it.

this thread truly drives home to me WHY 'king and linda' came to a swinger board in the first place.

we have no need to make babies...already got an houseful of youngins

want adult company

starved for it ...reckon?

I guess I should have clarified that it was the actual decision that didn't matter. Everyone has to do what's right for them. I just imagined myself in a couple's shoes where a past playmate tries prodding and prying for details that I might not feel comfortable divulging. Being approached in this manner would seem invasive to me, especially if I'm discussing it in a non-swinger environment. But Tempest's input is genuinely appreciated.

Having the common courtesy to tell your playmates that you will no longer play with them/be in contact with them is just good manners. It does suck when people just vanish without apparent reason.

I appreciate the value of communication - as all swingers do - and I do appreciate it when someone fills in the blanks for us in a situation like that. I've probably misread it, but for some reason, JnCC's post seemed to imply that people should somehow be expected to explain themselves. Having been in a tricky situation ourselves, where a couple we were playing with were having very obvious conflicts with the lifestyle, we would have found it extremely awkward to explain the reasoning for our distancing ourselves from them. We were walking a very fine line there, between doing them (and us) a favour by stopping play, and getting involved in parts of their marriage that were just none of our business by telling them what we thought their problems were. All we knew was that we were uncomfortable with things as they were, but didn't have a way to politely explain it.

Perhaps it's a difference of culture or just a difference of opinion, but we do value our privacy with respect to the inner workings of our marriage, and we try to give others the same personal space that we know we need for ourselves.

intuition897 said:

The fact that they would discuss swinging in a non-swinger (AKA vanilla?) situation is something in itself.

That depends on what kind of "non-swinger" situation you're talking about. It doesn't bother me to discuss personal matters in a public place, provided that I'm in a spot where we can do it with minimum interruption and without being overheard by passers-by. For example, the atrium of a shopping mall, a park bench, or even the secluded corner of a bar or restaurant would probably be OK. A crowded elevator would not.

Quote

Just curious; did you actually ask them for a reason why they were taking a break?

No...because among those close to us, we never needed to...we already knew. The ones we didn't know that well, we heard about through the grapevine. Lifestyle or not, "people still talk," especially about people who have dropped from the scene. (I'll bet you know things about people in your local swinging community that they didn't tell you)

Quote

It occurs to me that the particulars of their decision to swing are nobody's business but their own. They don't owe anyone anything, and an explanation shouldn't be expected. It's their life and they are free to do what they will.

Of course...that's why I was taken by Tempests post. She didn't need to do it, but she took the time to do it anyway. There IS another side to swinging that doesn't get much attention on boards such as this one, and that's what happens when things don't work out. How does a couple know? What are their first clues? What are the after-effects? I think Tempest brought those issues up quite well, while avoiding whatever messy details (assuming there were some) that may have attended her own decision to leave the lifestyle. Some people, (myself included) recognize her concerns as ones we've had to deal with as well.

Quote

JnCC's post seemed to imply that people should somehow be expected to explain themselves. Having been in a tricky situation ourselves, where a couple we were playing with were having very obvious conflicts with the lifestyle, we would have found it extremely awkward to explain the reasoning for our distancing ourselves from them.

I think you're talking now about whether it's appropriate to tell somebody else why you're not playing with them, not why you're not playing, period. But since you brought it up, I don't think anyone is ever "obligated" to explain why they've chosen not to play with somebody. If they do take the time to explain, (and it's happened to "us" as a couple, and "me" as a single, both in and out of the lifestyle) I take it as the highest compliment...a chance to correct my approach before trying again with somebody else.

Thinking about what happened here with Tempest, I am asking myself the question of how good and accurate the TALK, TALK, and TALK advice we provide is.

To avoid hijacking this thread, I jumped into a new one I called:

Talk is cheap - ideas for productive communication .

See you there.

Sereneiders:

I do not mind you hijacking the thread, I enjoyed your posts very much! I was impressed with your insights and yes, I do have insight into where and why.

Ms. Hot:

"After reading lots and lots of posts and especially this post, I asked myself a question... would I be in this lifestyle if I wasn't with my man? I think that's a really important question...." ]

-that is all I could hope for by posting. I'm not proposing everyone's answer, I just want to pose that question.

Intuition:

Very much to the heart of the post, I thought, was my willingness to fool myself.... to "talk myself out of" or into, certain emotions.

JnCC:

You have keen insight. I wasn't able to get online all weekend and when I came back and re-read, I realized how much of my heart was in it, but I think you saw that .

Thanks to everyone who was so kind about it, I was really afraid to post my thoughts... probably b/c I knew a few barbs were gonna get thrown. But if one of my friends came to me and said, "I'm thinking about swinging, what was your experience?" Well I hope that I could share my thoughts. (So does this make ya'll friends? ) These were my conclusions. It's not my bag. It's funny that Intuition referred to it being a gift between she and her spouse... well, that's also an apt analogy for me too, except my husband has many years history of picking out items he would like to receive himself, or thinks I should like... not putting himself in my position and finding out what I would actually want. I don't know how many times I've been on the receiving end of a gift I didn't ask for, nor did I like.

And no matter how many times someone says it's entirely about (mis)communication... I am on the other end. Even beyond swingers, I worry about a country at large that can be so easily duped with the subtleties of language. Sometimes truths are painful no matter the semantics or how pc-dotted the language is, and maybe we should be okay with sitting on that for a moment. You can put a bright, pretty bow on a turd and it's still a piece of shit at the end of the day... Nice title... still bullshit. There are some manipulative people in the world, shockingly so. It's in you. It's in me. Those who claim to not have any "demons" are usually the ones who have the most obvious ones! The light cannot exist without the dark, it just can't. The hope is that we'll all find a nice compromise in the middle.

It was difficult to express my dissatisfaction and issues with the lifestyle without stepping on the toes of those for whom it is good... perhaps that can't be done. I tried, out of respect. Each couple's dynamic is particular to them and they must navigate it the best they know how. I have vanilla friends for whom this lifestyle might work out great but who would never do it for religious/socio reasons, which is the opposite of me: I have no problem bucking social/religious dogma, but you shouldn't do it for the sake of doing it, for me it should be a cause close to my heart, something I really want. And it's not like Husband had his bags packed "or else," it was more of an emotional insecurity that I tried to negotiate against my inner jugdement. Being victim doesn't accomplish anything, healing requires that painful, epiphanic moment when you realize where you betrayed yourself at some level. I hope that duality is implied, as I had my own curiosities and fantasies to explore. I'm definitely into the exhibitionism/voyeurism part of it, and someday, still could be. I like watching and being watched, but I'm not sure how much room there is for that if you're not practicing an open relationship, so who knows? but if I am welcome here I could certainly stick around

This might be interesting to add--the aftershocks aren't even entirely in my marriage. I have felt like this goes way beyond my marriage, and into me as an individual. In early February, my much older friend for whom I've been working since last summer, knowing I'd been having a hard time in my marriage after practicing an open relationship for a while (no details), started subtley coming on to me in the workplace. I would politely step away from his arm on my shoulder, or not respond and change the subject with certain innuendos... til finally one day he decides to thank me for a good job in sales by grabbing either side of my face and kissing me on the lips! No tongue, but still... it was a shock. He was very apologetic but the fact is, I just couldn't be comfortable there anymore, and I never went back. The bigger lesson for me was that while I'd had fun, I had also been "invaded" several times in this lifestyle, unasked... at the club, at home, and now at my work place, and I had to go to a place of licking my wounds. I had to ask myself how I was "asking" for it. As Dave Chapelle accurately paralleled... "Ms., you may not be a whore, but you are wearing a whore's uniform!" (And no I didn't dress that way at work at all, it's just an attitude analogy...) Other women have been invaded in this lifestyle, too, much more violently than I, and while we all have it straight in our heads what we are doing, unfortunately society to large extent does not. A friend of mine was going through a break up at the same time and our mantra for the month became, "I am more than a pussy!"

At the same time, I was just offered a better position at a non-profit... one door closes, and another opens. Doesn't mean the lessons aren't painful, and sometimes we need the impetus of strife to inspire us to new heights. I suppose I just want to be a lot more choosy "picking my battles."

This May will be 13 years that we have been living together, and that's a long time. It's the number of the witch, of death, and the phoenix... and that's the point for me. The natural order of life on this planet is that everything goes through a death cycle before being reborn... witness Spring! Perhaps something needed to be completely dissolved to allow for new growth.

With all of the well wishes... I'd be happy to pop back in. I wasn't sure how it would be received here. But sex is still an interesting subject, like I said, I enjoyed the exhibitionism and fantasy, and there are points where I think I made good decisions, too... but I am involved with my other hobbies heavily again so I don't have oodles of time.

Thanks again to everyone so kind, you make me glad I came back to update.

Tempest

Tempest,

Thanks again for such a thoughtful insight.

I believe I express everyone's else opinion when saying you're more than welcome to keep sharing your thoughts and experience.

As for me, the "swinger" definition have way much less to do with the recreational sex than with an attitude regarding the way you relate with other people, both your spouse and others around you, and this is because to be able to share your sexuality with others outside your marriage (it doesn't matter to which extent) you require such an attitude. You have it, and that's what counts for me.

Whether we may like it or not, your experience is a valid one and it reflects one of the many ways the swinging approaching and developing process may evolve. No one would like to be in your shoes right now, and hopefully your post will help minimize the chances for someone else reading it, that recognize him/herself in your words, of being in your shoes.

And this isn't something worth only for these people, also for the entire community of lifestylers. We're the first ones advising against swinging when we feel something doesn't fit, and I believe this is also a selfish attitude the preserve the healthy of our community. We wouldn't like to face drama personally when meeting new people, we wouldn't like to be seen as "home wreckers" by the rest of the society, we have high moral standards and we'd like there, as a community, to be appreciated. So I strongly believe that embrace every experience, even the odd ones, is the healthiest thing we can do for ourselves and for the community.

About your comment on (mis)communication, with all the ramifications implied, I have to say I agree with you. I know this is a political incorrect comment in this forum (we shouldn't talk politics, but well... we are politicized, by action or omission, it's part of our lives and sometimes it's unavoidable), but being and outsider witness of how some things evolve in the core of the society leading the world, and feeling such a leadership have implications that affects my fate and the fate of everyone all around the world (even inside the core), it is refreshing to hear someone from this core being aware of this, and having the guts to talk about it. For the ones who had the experience of being misled by means of these "subtleties of language", when watching some things happen, we end up with the certainty of a pretty dark future. People expressing your toughs brings some light to that eventual darkness, and I have to thank you for this. I wonder if you've been reading Noham Chomsky, and if you didn't, I believe you'd enjoy his insights and research about this matter.

Please, stick around, let us know of how you life evolve from now and on, and share your opinions with us.

Thanks for coming back to update. While I don't see things the way you do, I still really enjoy reading your posts.

Tempest419 said:

Intuition:

Very much to the heart of the post, I thought, was my willingness to fool myself.... to "talk myself out of" or into, certain emotions.

Quite often you'll hear the advice "go with your gut instinct." I think perhaps the wisdom of "going with your gut" has been skewed somewhat. It might be better advice to say, "Listen to your gut instinct." Don't "go" with it right away, though, without fully understanding why it's there in the first place. If we examine our gut instincts or reactions and determine whether or not it's common sense talking or if it's our insecurity, we'll have a better view of ourselves and have a plan of action that will truly lead us where we want to be.

Tempest419 said:

(So does this make ya'll friends? )

Sure! A difference of opinion is welcome. Otherwise you get that cult/herd mentality where everything starts to look the same. When we see opinions that we don't agree with, it just reinforces why we believe what we do, regardless of which side of the fence you're on. One of my best friends knows that Mr. intuiton and I are in the lifestyle, but she doesn't understand how we can't see that love and sex are inseparably linked. In her mind, they are. In our mind they are two distinct entities. So who is right? This might sound like I'm being a lukewarm fence-sitter, but I think we both are. It all comes down to what is right for each person.

Tempest419 said:

It's funny that Intuition referred to it being a gift between she and her spouse... well, that's also an apt analogy for me too, except my husband has many years history of picking out items he would like to receive himself, or thinks I should like... not putting himself in my position and finding out what I would actually want. I don't know how many times I've been on the receiving end of a gift I didn't ask for, nor did I like.

I get this image of Tim "the Toolman" Taylor giving his wife Jill a brand new set of power tools for her birthday. Who was the gift really for? Sounds more like Mr. Tempest419 was just looking for your permission to screw around, which, as soon as you realized it, should've been the point where you stopped your exploration into swinging. It really isn't supposed to hurt.

Tempest419 said:

And no matter how many times someone says it's entirely about (mis)communication... I am on the other end. Even beyond swingers, I worry about a country at large that can be so easily duped with the subtleties of language.

I'm not sure if I understand this portion of your post or not, Tempest, but it makes more sense to me to raise a child who is street-smart, than one who has been kept sheltered and naive. Ill-intentioned people will always be out there with their manipulations. You can shoot down one form of manipulation and two more spring up to take it's place. Or you can educate/train yourself to recognize manipulation, and be assertive. This is kind of the same approach to porn and sex that I've seen: "Quick! Get rid of he dirty magazines and XXX movies so that the sexually addicted can stop being sexually addicted!" Seems to make more sense to me to help those with shallow impressions of sex and sexuality develop a greater appreciation and respect for themselves and for others (others, for example, like the naked women plastered on their monitors, magazines and TV's).

Tempest419 said:

Sometimes truths are painful no matter the semantics or how pc-dotted the language is, and maybe we should be okay with sitting on that for a moment. You can put a bright, pretty bow on a turd and it's still a piece of shit at the end of the day...

Yup. Amen to that. And now to quote Pontius Pilate: "What is truth?"

Tempest419 said:

There are some manipulative people in the world, shockingly so. It's in you. It's in me. Those who claim to not have any "demons" are usually the ones who have the most obvious ones! The light cannot exist without the dark, it just can't. The hope is that we'll all find a nice compromise in the middle.

I'd have to say that light CAN exist without dark...but it would have nothing to illuminate. Just as dark can exist without light. One without the other - for humans, anyway - quickly loses its meaning and context. And it's true what you say about manipulation. It is human nature to learn patterns and try to control one's environment. We're a naturally insecure species because I think we're given bigger brains than we have the sense to use. We just weren't designed to handle this much knowledge. Knowledge we have. Wisdom is what we need to go with it.

And demons? Oh yes. We all have them. Parasitic bastards. None of us have perfect lives, and in the cracks and imperfections within ourselves seeps the corrosiveness of doubt, the needling fingers of our personal demons. Demons are opportunists; they thrive on denial and ignorance, on cowardice and fear. They amplify and multiply these things until their fingers have rooted themselves so deeply in us, like an inoperable tumour, that they have achieved their goal of becoming a part of who we are. They get to a point where if we were to remove the demon that has become a part of the structure, the entire being would collapse. Sounds far-fetched, but ask anyone who has lost a loved one to a substance addiction, and they'll tell you about it.

Tempest419 said:

It was difficult to express my dissatisfaction and issues with the lifestyle without stepping on the toes of those for whom it is good... perhaps that can't be done. I tried, out of respect. Each couple's dynamic is particular to them and they must navigate it the best they know how.

So...in other words, you're saying that it might work for others but not for you...yet the unspoken thought attached to the end of that statement (I'm guessing) is: then again, you don't see how it could be right for anyone. I don't want to argue it necessarily (done plenty of that here and elsewhere already TYVM ), it's just an observation/guess.

Tempest419 said:

Being victim doesn't accomplish anything, healing requires that painful, epiphanic moment when you realize where you betrayed yourself at some level.

Which is what makes it so much easier for people to just continue down the garden path, killing themselves by degrees on the inside. It isn't until we can see the value and beauty in the most horrible ugliness that we can start to heal.

Tempest419 said:

if I am welcome here I could certainly stick around

Welcome

Tempest419 said:

and while we all have it straight in our heads what we are doing, unfortunately society to large extent does not.

I think this is exactly why swinging is such an underground culture. They just aren't ready for this shit up there topside in the mainstream. It goes against cultural norms like "knowing how to play the game to get ahead", or the belief that dishonesty is okay in some circumstances...like when you need to cover your ass and then tell yourself that it was to spare someone else's feelings. The mainstream holds all things like honesty and integrity and honour in great esteem, but there's this impression that these are not reality anymore, but relics of a bygone golden era of knights in shining armor. I just think people don't expect enough of themselves or each other.

Thanks again for your post Tempest! Be sure to keep posting.