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sereneiders

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sereneiders last won the day on July 3 2009

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About sereneiders

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    Couple
  • Location
    Argentina
  • Swinging Experience
    2 years

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  1. Yu're right, the situation doesn't look fair. In the other hand, since your wife was already part of the lifestyle, her insight may make her honestly believe you have way more chances that the ones you see. But it's her insight, and you're deprived from it. Then again, you're right. Such a lengthy post (and I have no right to complein about posts lenght) and, moreover, what you said of how much time you've spent thinking and thinking, seems to be a symptom for a lack of communication. up to me, you should be inviting your wife to read your post and ask her to answer it. If she's so experienced in the lifestyle, then she should understand the importance of the communcation. Then again, we trend to believe other people are in the same page than us more often that not, and she may be giving for granted some common grounds with you, that you may lack without her knowledge. The worst for you is to fill the voids in your thoughts with your fantasies and a set of prejudices comming after the lack of experience, because is very likely that you'll end up filling it with your demons and turn the whole thing into a nightmare for you. So, ask her to fill those voids.
  2. We wouldn't be swinging should we didn't found an experienced swinger couple that provided advice and lots of patience, moreover, without even wanting to have sex with us (even when the attitude eventually worth the effort and we finally did it... being ourselves the ones starting it). The fact is, by then MOST of the swingers we meet were kind and caring, which not only evaporated our fears, but made us aware of the high moral standards they follow... so alike to ours. They had the same fears when they started, they've been there, and even more important for THEM, they were aware of how drama prone is to jump into the bed with a couple that may be engaging in swinging like kamikazes or as a way to solve their problems, and swingers hate drama. So we follow their lead... not only to the bed, also in being careful (in the broader sense of the word) with ANYONE we meet, disregarding how experienced they were, but moreover if they lack experience. And the fact that so many experienced swingers devote some of their valuable time to provide advice in here is a proof of those standards.
  3. I believe we're making a "leap jump" here when mentioning the cheating, and it is to suppose gender makes no difference, and to attempt to dissociate the whole thing from the impact our culture has after thousands of years of human history. I strongly believe many aspects of the behavior imposed by our culture comes after an existential problem the men (the males, not the females) faced and faces: the only concrete an visible legacy most people leaves after passing away are "their" children, and the word is quoted because it is the key of the problem. No one doubts about whose woman's kids are "their" children because we all can see women deliver them, but fatherhood is a wholly different matter: everyone is able to question whether a kid is really some man children, even the same man. Until very recently with DNA tests, there was no way to accurately answer this question (and so recently that it still has no impact in our "cultural take" about this problem), so motherhood is a matter of concrete facts, while fatherhood is a matter of faith. I believe a lot of the "proper behavior" was, and still is, meant to support and reinforce this faith, and it is centered around our sexuality, because also until recently with the fertility controls, most sexual activities were leading to pregnancy. We can see the traces of this reinforcement operation in the children's last names that comes after the father one (often exclusively), the marriage vows, and the way "good girls" are supposed to behave and what they're supposed to expect from life. As to reinforce this faith, along history women became a good to exchange among families, from being locked into their parents house, to be locked into their husbands houses, controlling every aspect of their sexuality, even from the language hegemony: Only women can be sluts or whores, there are no similar term for the males, and those words are used to tag women whose behavior could risk this reinforcement effort. Even being the "son of a bitch" becomes an insult, the whole thing to be able to tell apart "good" from "bad" women. The good ones are those suitable to be objects and become a man property, for him to "own" her "child delivering" capabilities, since if you own an object you also own it function, in this case, the one "solving" your existential problem. Thus, cheating isn't so ill seen because it's expected to happen between husbands (males) and sluts or whores (bad women), and even when performed by a women, it must be a concealed act that doesn't publicly disrupt this "principle of reinforcement"... otherwise the woman in question is outcasted and becomes herself a slut. But swinging is something that collides and threatens the faith required to reinforce the fatherhood: wives are allowed to have intercourse with many men, and we encourage this behavior. If this were becoming something "normal", no men would be safe in the face of earth with their beliefs about being their children father, and even if they were by means of DNA tests, those test should be made public or other people may still disbelief, which actually would deprive him from his legacy anyway. Notice that, for the legacy judgment it worths almost nothing the private convictions people (men) have, but the convictions from the others, the rest of the society (people with convictions against the society ones are devious or even crazy). So swinging pushes men to look for other ways to deal with their own existential problems, and this is very uncomfortable.
  4. I apologize beforehand, since we had a poly relationship before and we're open to the idea, and the question was addressed to people who didn't. I guess I am going to be a little controversial among swingers here, but it's my take. From my experience with others swingers, their opinions and the way some of them express their jealously, by now I believe there are two approaches to swinging: 1) Those who understands the word love as having multiple meanings for which we don't have independent "nouns" in our vocabulary, hence you love many people and the meaning of love differs from one another, even is slightly, without feeling compelled to define nor linearly measure those feelings as to compare them in terms of "loving X more than Y". We belong to this class, and for us what matters is whether the one you love sticks (it loyal) to the particular commitment stated for this very relationship (and not "any" nor "some other" one), applying this criteria to every relationship, without caring to compare them. 2) Those who understands some parts of their sexuality as an activity dissociated from love, while retaining a "more conventional definition" of love that let's them compare the relationships in terms of "loving X more than Y" (even when I don't know how they manage to do it), and shifts the boundaries of their commitment further away from the conventions to enable themselves to share those parts of their sexuality with others (for example, some activities are "shareable" while others are preserved to express love, hence "off limits"). This is too rough as a definition, I know, but I believe the answer to your question depends ultimately on this initial approach. The "pure swingers" would be the later ones, they require more rules and precautions to avoid developing feelings beyond a point of tolerance because that increases the risk of perceiving what's going on with a third party would mean "they're loving less than they did before or less than that third party". And of course, this is the commitment and it should be preserved and enforced. What calls my attention regarding this subject is how the "pure swingers" perceive the "poly friendly" guys as a threat (much like a "vanilla couple" may perceive swingers as a threat), which for me is a sign of that operation of shifting boundaries they made. As for the "poly friendly", at least from those that share our approach, if we treasure relationships for what they are, without asking for more than fulfilling the expectations each other have about it, allowing us to call this "love" in certain cases, we don't impose any threat (beyond that of enabling a valid question about the subject) to the "pure swingers" since we (or unless) expect them to commit to their own private arrangement without asking for more. At most it is a matter of semantics.
  5. Well, I guess there are a cultural dependence. For example, here there was a time were loteries where illegal, so bet dealers cannot mention numbers in phone calls because they would risk themselves to be outed, so they talk of "dreams" they had, building a code where concepts stands for the numbers. Latelly this became popular, it turned the other way around so people picked numbers to bet based on what they've dreamed. Thus, in this code the butt would mean seven, so 247 could stand for "two for butts"?
  6. If there is something the OP managed to prove about how sexuality get affected by the sexual organ size is: 1) The main sexual organ is the brain. For a "size queen" size doesn't matter, but the thought of the size. For those pursuing interracial encounters, the actual racial features doesn't matter, but the thought of the stereotyped features does. BTW, I don't know whether this guy's wife was a size queen or not, nor even if he actually has a wife to begin with. What's obvious from the post is that the OP is a "size queen" himself. 2) This guy has a HUGE brain. It seems to me he's spent way more time fantasizing of this whole thing than actually attempting to bring this fantasy to reality. But, it works for him... and for this tale to work for you, you actually doesn't need a wife nor a black lover. At most you need just one hand.
  7. As for myself, I don't see much of a difference between fore-play and play. Penetration? May be, but it's part of the game. I mean, I may withdraw at any moment to "go back" to foreplaying... which would make it middle-playing... I guess. I don't even feel the urge for cumming, and I may not cum at all and still have a great time. As for my wife... she aknowledges the difference. It reaches a point where she needs to have it and to have it now! LOL. But, the way I play deppends as much on my mood as on my partner's mood and tastes (and this includes my wife). I think what really turns me on is to feel how turned on my partner is, and when that matches my mood, it's great. So, some times I am a teaser, some others I may play rough (if consented, of course), others I can play loving and sweet.... so, yep, it is different bu because every partner is different. We have regular partners and I get to know my partner tastes. And of course, the most regular partner is my wife, whose tastes I already know like my own hand
  8. Long ago I was wondering about the way cultural differences affects swinging in a thread, but I couldn't find it. Let's shift to Latin America. I am from Argentina, a country that isn't representative for the rest of the continent, moreover in the big cities, due to the immigration we've got, leading to a mix of cultures comparable with the one in the US (mostly from Latin European countries: Spain and Italy, then Europeans escaping from the WWII, people from Middle East -thus having a coexisting Jew and Muslim communities, and Orient). Buenos Aires shows a weird mix of European architecture because of this. Our society was pretty conservative, although more open regarding people's physical contact: is often common to greet people you don't know with a kiss, even in places like a work environment. People are way more "touchy" than in the US. This conservativeness was broken after the last dictatorial government, 30 years ago, when we embraced tolerance as a valuable good to keep and reinforce. Besides, psychology is a respectable field even among the regular guys (to attend a counseling isn't ill seen, moreover is appreciated as a way to improve yourself as a person) so people trend to be analytical regarding human behavior, which includes the way the sexuality is perceived. I never went to the US as to be able to compare, but a girlfriend of us (who played with us as a threesome) came here and pointed out several differences she noticed. It called her attention the amount of crossdressers walking by in the streets or at bars, pointing out they wasn't as discriminated as in the US... even when local laws doesn't follow this lead, nor protect their rights the same way the US laws does. Generally speaking, she said people behave on their own as if they were honoring the US laws regarding privacy and personal rights, even when the laws didn't reflect this, as opposed to the US where people trends to be less respectful of privacy and personal rights than what's stated by the law (her words, I don't know!). From what I've read here from Europe, it seems we follow their lead regarding sexuality. We don't do topless at beaches, but in late night you have sexual oriented/violent content on TV as (from what was posted) you'd expect from special paid channels (that we have as well). As example, this girlfriend was amazed from a local TV advertising she saw at 10 AM on a news channel from an insurance company: a guy driving his car on a road crashes against a tree after avoiding to hit an animal. Instead of the airbag, it pops out an inflatable sex doll with her legs over his, "with us you'll have immediate satisfaction". Upon her words, such ad wouldn't be allowed on open TV at 10 AM where she lives. At Buenos Aires we have half a dozen swinger's clubs, there exist one magazine devoted to swingers you can buy at any newspaper store, and it is shown openly as porn magazines are (those stores are in the streets, so at first glance of anyone walking by). Clubs are on-premise and more like discotheques, no need to register, although some require you to call in advance unless being a regular. Except for one installed as a hotel with rooms, the remaining have seldom public places where to have sex, and some allow the action to take place anywhere (dance floor, or over the bar), so usually gals dance in topless. Selling alcohol is legal, they offer stripper shows, singles are allowed but discouraged on Saturday nights, and even one of them opens during the week on day times to organize gangbangs. Besides, there are several "on premise non swinger's clubs" (if there exist such a thing), i.e., discotheques with public places to have sex, but without any swingers etiquette code. Clubs and discotheques are open from 11 PM-1AM to 9 AM, and there are "after hours" clubs that open from then and on (so you could spend all day long partying... if you're crazy enough). Swingers get to know each other mostly at clubs and private meetings, and in forums and devoted chat rooms in the web. But I guess we all end up having the same sort of fun, no matter where we are in the world!!!!
  9. Well, besides the dictionary definition, we may stick to the one we fall into after googling the term. If so, we're talking of a lifestyle on it own, one that's somewhere in between the BDSM and the swinging... although I hardly correlate with swinging. We've had pretty bad experiences with people that, later on, we figured out they were into the cuckoldry stuff, and this is because of the difference of expectations we had, even when the explicit ones seemed to be similar. Don't get me wrong, I am not criticizing cuckoldry nor they expectations, just pointing out there is a big gap between theirs and ours. For example, there's some degree of humiliation involved for the cuckold that, at least him, expect to fulfill, and if they portray themselves as "typical swinger couples" wanting to have some fun (as happened to us), you may end up trapped in an scenario where you become the "tool" triggering the humiliation, placed as a Top, perhaps abusive guy when that was far from your intention. Again, I am not talking of the "hot wife" scenario here, which doesn't necessarily involves any humiliation, nor the way the Oxford dictionary defines the word cuckold. I am talking of a seldom strictly ruled role playing game between a marriage and third parties, where every "character" behavior have a seldom usual script to follow. If you pick at random 20 sexual stories about cuckoldry you'd notice the pattern, what turns them on, and a list of features every character's script should have (take or give some of them), and the features they expect from their playmates (moreover the male ones, even if part of a couple). As for me, playing with cuckolds and wifes, I found myself pushed or dragged into the script the "lover" should have (being better lover than the cuck and so forth), like the other guy being suddenly reluctant to play with my wife because he's more into what's going on with his wife and me, and the wife making bold comments to him, attempting to degrade him by making a comparison... as if I were not there, or expecting me to jump into the game they're devising. They know if we were knowing this could evolve this way, we wouldn't be there in the first place, so they chose not to tell beforehand. And, in some cases, that this cuckoldry game isn't so clear for some couples, who actually believe every swinger couple share this mindset thus this should be "normal" among swingers. It even happened to me after we declined to play with a couple, to tell them "you guys are into cuckoldry"... "into what?"... "google it". And later on they say "yeah, this is what we're looking for". I guess Julie's take about polyamory comes handy, because it is true, swingers doesn't feel comfortable when playing with poly friendly people... but precisely because no one of them can tell the difference, or recognize it. Once seen, everyone is able to figure out what he/she is up to, and where the other couple limits are set, in order to commit to a shared ground of rules. As for us (and BTW we're poly-friendly), we'd avoid playing with "cuckoldry" couples precisely because our experience already told us most of them cannot tell the difference between cuckoldry and swinging, that my wife would be excluded from the "main events" (even if the guy get laid with her, his head is somewhere else), and I dislike the "better lover" role they're expecting to find out.
  10. Well, perhaps you may work around something in the middle way: "Folks, I love you, I want to spend vacations togheter as much as I know how great it'd be for you two to spend some time without having me around" Well, the idea would be to split the vacations in two, giving them some time alone and joining them later on.
  11. I don't know for sure where that line is... but I hope every swinger woman to cross it!!!!
  12. I think part of this is his lack of tact, and another part of this is your body issues. You shouldn't take one for the team. Right. But, what's the motivation behind your will to ban another couple? That you dislike the guy? Or that your husband likes a gal that doesn't look the way you do? (with your body issues, I am pretty sure you'd read this a "a gal prettier than you"... but, that's just you and your body issues). I guess you two have a lot to talk... but given your body issues, some topics become difficult to bring up. So, I'll talk of myself, a seldom fat guy with my own body issues. I know my wife likes me... and that she liked my body better years ago, when I was slim. She likes slim guys, and I am fat. Let's deal with this. She's still next to me, awakes next to me, no matter which adonis had sex with her the evening before. She keeps choosing me, over and over and over. Not because of my body (obviously) but because of everything else of what I am. And this is the way it have to be. Now, if I were overly sensitive about my body issues, it's very likely that se won't tell me. She would do her best to halp me feel better about myself, to avoid hurting me... and she would avoid commenting "she liked me better when I was slim". And again, this is the way it have to be. As for my wife, she may pick an adonis... and also pick guys like myself. And this makes a difference. And I wouldn't ban a couple just because he's the adonis I am not... and that makes a difference. Honesty is overestimated. You're asking him to be honest, and with your every day attitudes, you're also aking him to be very carefull about your body issues, to avoid hurting you. You also want to swing, and want to indulge his desires... and yes, it's very likely he'll look in someone else for features he knows you don't (and probabily won't) have, for a little while, just for fun, before returning to your arms. So, you're giving him a thin thread where to walk... and he doesn't seem to be too proficient in walking on thin threads. He may relinkish some of his wishes for a playmate to protect you. Or you could valuate yourself fow what you are besides your body, and allow him to openly admit what's binding him to you... besides your body, and EVEN with your body. Anyway, I am not sure if you two are swinging for the right reasons today. If he does it looking for features you don't have... and if you do it looking for a reasurance about his tastes. Should he were picking women more like yourself... wouldn't this help you "indulge yourself"? You have to work on your body issues, better say, in your self esteem beyond your body issues... and it would be nice if he helps you out a little bit.
  13. So, basically... ¿what's the bottom line here? ¿That we swing but only when the other partners stick strictly to our very limitations? I HOPE my wife's playmate to be able to do whatever I didn't engage into, that my wife could enyoy! And then let me know to improve myself! I believe the fear here comes from the chance of finding someone able to "do it better" than ourselves (where to "just do" something you don't, is "better" from scratch). As for me (or, for us), I am pretty sure there are many guys able to do something better than myself... but not EVERYTHING I do, the way I do it, and that's enough for me. Besides, our relationship is a building, it took a lot of time and effort to build it, brick by brick, and make it the way we both love it. Let's suppose there is a guy able to blow up my wife's head in bed... you don't have a remote idea of how much he'd have to row, before even having a chance to reach a brick to remove! Really, allow me to watch his efforts an laugh. Definatelly, sex is a binding thing, but it isn't, by far, what bond us togheter. No mater of what, sex won't be able to undind us.
  14. I wouldn't use it, but because I am aware it could make the other party unconfortable. Even when we're poly friendly... or preciselly because we are, there are certain words we take seriously. Even more when the people around us, knowing we're poly friendly, could make a wrong guess. Lover implies some relationship, often hidden, going on along time. We wouldn't use this word, even when we may tell people "I love you" (and yet, this wouldn't be said to one half of a couple without the other half being aware of this). So, even when I may love you, and have sex with you, we're not "lovers".
  15. I consider myself pretty decent at dirty talking (well... if there exist such a thing like a "decent dirty talker"), and I love to hear dirty talking as well. With my wife, I know what sort of things thrills her, what she can take even when it does nothing to her, and what dislike her. As for other couples, it's much the same way than when you meet someone new: you just don't have a clue until you get to know each other. Plus, you're not sure of the respect boundaries with BOTH the other parties. For example, at the club we've meet couples where the guy call his wife (and she calls herself the same) a slut or a whore... as you meet couples where they may dirty talk to each other but they dislike other people calling her names just to "point out" the fact they're picky (or whatever reason). As for myself, I am extremelly polite. For example, at the club, I don't even dare to touch women I know for sure they enjoy being grooped by anyone unles I get the ok from her and her husband (even if a nod or a sight). The same happens with dirty talking: I wouldn't call her names or so, and definatelly I wouldn't do that in front of her husband even if they both aproves. I usually let her know I like dirty talking, asking for her oppinions and feelings about the subject, then I stick to the rules (well, it may happen that rules changes as we get to trust each other some more, but again, it's something spoken out loud).
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