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Thread: church

  1. #1

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    I'm a christian but im not sure if the bible is saying that it is really sinful to be bi or if swinging is wrong as long as you and your husband are in on it together and we dont lie to each other. Believe it or not we have been swinging for about 10 years and this question still bothers me. Sometimes i just dont know if what im doing is wrong in God's eyes. Any insights? Im sure Im not the only one out there that has wondered about this.

  2. #2
    Swingers Board Addict TNT's Avatar
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    Default Re: church

    This link might help you with some of your questions.

    Ted and Teresa
    No lifetime is enough unless you live it in such a way as to make it enough.

  3. #3

    Default Re: church

    thanks, ill go check it out.

  4. #4

    Default Re: church

    I could post a really huge long comment about this, but I'll try to keep it short.

    I think the Holy Bible has become something that its message actually prohibits: an idol. I mean, come on! It's wood pulp and ink covered by the preserved skin of a dead animal. And while the words in it are divinely inspired, they have been translated by man. Pure light through dirty lenses, if you will. The men who wrote those words were not perfect, and their past experiences coloured the way they interpreted that inspiration. If it were not so, there would be no difference between writing styles and themes from one book to the next. It is foolhardy to blindly follow anything without questioning it. If it is true, it will stand of it's own accord.

    We're all individuals and we all think very differently. It's not our specific opinions that matter so much, or our particular quirks - it is the intent with which we live our lives. We are told to question all things (can't remember that chapter:verse, but it's in there), and in Romans 14 it explains that what one man considers holy another man might consider sin. And we are all to live according to what we know in our own hearts and souls is right. If we are doing something that we truly feel is offensive to God, and then consciously decide to CONTINUE to do it, well I think that's what He's going to care about.

    This life is a test run, a dress rehearsal. We've been given the equivalent of crash test cars for lives. These bodies are not expected to last forever; do you really think God cares about a couple of dings in the fender? Scars, both physical and emotional, are inevitible. It's how we learn. The point isn't that we get to the end of the road course with our cars completely intact; the point is that we have learned to drive responsibly, without hurting others or ourselves. This pleases God.*

    That's why the Golden Rule covers all the others: just love each other and do not do harm. It's not rocket science, folks! If that one law was perfectly kept, there would never be a need for any others. That is the entire underlying theme that runs throughout the Bible. Just keep it between the lines and live a good and happy life. And part of living that good life is doing what you can to positively affect the lives of others, embracing what is good and holy and denouncing what is not. There is SO much good in this world to be embraced; it's just hard to see when it's covered in bullshit. So I just like to suggest that everyone grab a shovel and start removing the bullshit and get down to the good stuff.

    Did this post make sense to anyone? Probably not...

    EDIT>> Just wanted to add that this is not to say that we are free to trash our bodies as we please. We have been entrusted with the care of our bodies, and should be respectful of the craftsmanship, care and love that went into making them.
    Fear is a symptom of ignorance. Knowledge is the cure.

  5. #5

    Default Re: church

    About 3 months ago we had quite a long discussion about church and swinging.

    here is the URL

  6. #6

    Default Re: church

    The following is not my opinion. I am against any restrictions, legal or religious, that shame or punish people for having fun that doesn't harm anyone. But, the Bible is clear on the issue of both adultery and homosexuality, both are condemned and forbidden, no ifs ands or buts. I have a friend who is a Methodist Minister who has studied these things. A huge controversy in that denomination recently was whether to allow actively practicing gay clergy to preach. The issue was not about hating gays, the Methodists, like others, adopt a "hate the sin, love the sinner" approach, but having openly practicing gay clergy was too much for the institution. At a big meeting recently the whole denomination voted to keep the prohibition. Why? Only because it is forbidden by the Bible in no uncertain terms. Since the Bible is clear, it is a matter of free will as to whether or not you choose to follow it. Myself? I am a self described "apatheticist," I don't care which religion is right, I think they are all myth, but I don't profess to know the "truth." I'm not an athiest because I do not claim to have special knowledge that allows me to assert that God DOESN'T exist any more than I have special knowledge that he does. I chose not to be bound by any religion, they all proclaim to know the truth by divine revelation but they all conflict in their basic creeds. Some religions have even died out, despite at one time having many adherents; remember, those Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans really believed in all those Gods! But for those who do believe, in the end, you will have to reconcile yourself to it, or change yourself, because a 2000 year old instutionalized organization isn't about to change centuries of teaching in order to accomodate the changing fashions of popular culture. The leaders of every major religion are in a constant battle with modern western popular culture; swinging, divorce, extra marital sex, and what they see as "moral decline." This is what the Pope and Osama have in common, a desire to turn back the clock and reinstate religious dogma over skeptical secularism as the political order. I personally see the western popular culture as freedom oriented, authority bucking, inquisitive, and as a BETTER alternative to dogma! For too many thousands of years religious dogma has been used to shame, shutter, and stamp out human activities that hurt no one but violate the "rules." I wish there was a "Christianity Lite" that would allow people to swing and do other "banned" things, but that is not going to happen. Unfortunately, if you really believe, and if you are honest with yourself, then you must decide whether to practice your religion or go against it, but the authorities won't let you have it both ways. Eyesonus

  7. #7

    Default Re: church

    Hear, hear, eyesonus. Very good post. Since I am the keeper of quotes, , I'll leave you here with a few of my favorites regarding organized religion, because they all take themselve to seriously and all of them are mortal men interpreting to the masses what God (or whatever you're comfortable with) is saying.

    "Scriptures, n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based."

    ~ Ambrose Bierce

    “Conventionality is not morality. Self-righteousness is not religion.”

    ~ Charlotte Bronte

    “Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think.”

    ~ Arthur Shopenhauer

    “In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.”

    “Morality is herd instinct in the individual.”

    ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

    “It is a fine thing to establish one's own religion in one's heart, not to be dependent on tradition and second-hand ideals. Life will seem to you, later, not a lesser, but a greater thing.”

    ~ D. H. Lawrence

    Mr. WS
    "Sex is something you do, sexuality is something you are." ~ Anna Freud
    Blog: Bigger Love

  8. #8

    Default Re: church

    Hi eyesonus,
    You wrote a very good post. I agree with most of it. I also don't expect the organized church to change. I'd love to know whow many people have left the church because of its stand on sexual activities.
    I've studied the Bible all my life. While I'm not a scholar in knowing the orginal languages and don't claim to be able to comprehend as much material as many with higher IQs. I can also say this about myself. I have studied the Bible to know what it says more than many pastors. I'm willing to say when the Bible says even when its not popular. My job doesn't depend on meeting a othodoxy statement.
    It's only been in the last 18 months that I've studied what the Bible actually says about sex and tied to understand what it meant to those that wrote it and to those it was written to. My finding is that church tradition is has redefined many words that are now used to condemn people in their sexual activities. Both adultery and fornication mean differant things to us today than they did in Biblical days. Almost all teaching on divorce is differant than what they beleived in the NT times. Many pastors teach that masterbation is sin and the Bible is total silent about it other than one verse speaking of male emissions in general.
    So I find most Bible teachers are teaching what they want the Bible to say about sex rather than what it actually says.
    I agree with your thesis, the church will keep people from enjoying loving sex for years to come.

  9. #9

    Default Re: church

    I can't speak to whether the Bible explicitly forbids swinging or being bi.

    But I do know that where knowledge goes . . . . God dies.

    We have a need as a species to put the unknown in the hands of God so that we can be comfortable with the larger questions. It's easier to have a moral compass provided for you than it is to take that responsibility on yourself.

    If you were to go back 250 years and showed an educated individual (for the time) a box that would let you see his bones, you'd be hanged for being in league with the devil. Today, no one questions the use of Xrays and the explanation of what makes them work. The instances of those kinds of change in thinking are innumerable.

    It's telling that while our acceptance that a new material discovery can replace a divine explanation with a scientific one we continue to seriously struggle with the role sex plays in our society. We still look to our religion to provide us with the "right" answer.

    If you want to control a mass of individuals you need to take command of two things . . . fear and sex, two of our most powerful motivators. Establish clear and hard rules around sex and enforce them with fear and you rule the world.

    Knowledge has a tendency to move faster than dogma so the organized religions are left to scramble to keep up and adapt their structure to the new matrix of society. And because they can no longer impose a physical fear (in Western cultures) to keep their structure in place, it is becoming more and more difficult to keep the individual on their "moral" path.

    Is it a sin to swing? Only the individual can answer that. Some will never be capable of it. Some will rationalize it, other's will turn a blind eye to it and yield to their desires.

    Our attitude toward sexual morals is just another element of change (albeit a slow one) in our ever shifting view of how we fit into the scheme of things.

  10. #10

    Default Re: church

    Swinging and Christianity (“The Church”) aren’t on the same page. It seems like swingers want to believe they have evolved past such archaic beliefs. However, the majority think it’s a slight form of devolution. Animalistic? Maybe? What is right? Isn’t it comical how everyone wants to shift the definition of Christianity? It doesn’t answer your question. Swinging is wrong in the eyes of God (as defined through Christianity.) Period. Doesn’t mean you have to believe in God though. C’mon guys give them a straight answer.

  11. #11

    Default Re: church

    when it comes to organized religion and swinging, you're either in or your out. This applies to all three western religions (Christianity, Islam and Judiasm). I've read all the rationalizations about the Bible somehow sanctioning FFM but not MFM threesomes, spilt seed and all the rest. I suspect what many people are seeking in this forum is
    some sort of absolution from participating in the lifestyle. It ain't happening. You should either make a conscious decision to play and stop waisting your time looking for God's approval.
    Now can you be part of the lifestyle and still function actively within a structured religion, of course you can. But you will have to do it with the knowledge that you, as a swinger, are not a saint (ie you're a sinner) and that you and your spouse have faults. Whether or not you will feel the guilt by breaking the commandments or the Koran is totally between you and the 'Man upstairs".

  12. #12

    Default Re: church

    if you study the 2000 year long history of christianity, as opposed to the other religions, you will soon realize that christianity is the most sex-negative religion of them all. virginity and life-long celibacy is what christianity considered holy and for most of the 2000 years even sex between wives and husbands was considered dirty. strict oppression of peoples sexual needs and behaviors was one of the basic preocupation of the church from its beginnings, so I don't doubt swinging, like many other forms of sexual expressions (including masturbation, homo and bisexuality, adultery, pre-marital sex etc) are out of the question. according to this religion, sex in general, and sex for pleasure instead of for procreation in particular, is WRONG. be sure you'll burn in hell for swinging, if you believe in hell of course.

    and by the way, we live in the 21 century, where science explains everything that people 2000 years ago were unable to explain and had to invent stories to understand their world. is (organized) religion still necessary for intelligent and educated people of this era?

  13. #13
    Chimpin' Ain't Easy Spoomonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: church

    Actually - One of my bachelor's degrees is in the Bible...

    So I would say that I have a bit of background

    Personally, from a contextual viewpoint, there is no conflict with Christianity and swinging. I don't like to get into it, because I do believe their is a larger issue in people exploring the truth for themselves, but to say that it is mutually exclusive is pretty haughty. Considering better men then us has debated many, many issues of the faith without coming to a mutually satisfying conclusion, what makes anyone here think that they can take such a rigid stand?

    "Eros will have naked bodies; Friendship naked personalities." - C. S. Lewis

  14. #14

    Default Re: church

    I’m sorry you’re not getting a satisfactory answer from these self-proclaimed experts. How about visiting your Priest to explore your question? He will have a much better idea.

  15. #15

    Default Re: church

    Quote Originally Posted by azmichael36
    I’m sorry you’re not getting a satisfactory answer from these self-proclaimed experts. How about visiting your Priest to explore your question? He will have a much better idea.
    Ah yes. A real expert. :rollseyes
    Fear is a symptom of ignorance. Knowledge is the cure.

  16. #16
    Swingers Board Addict good times's Avatar
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    Default Re: church

    Quote Originally Posted by azmichael36
    I’m sorry you’re not getting a satisfactory answer from these self-proclaimed experts. How about visiting your Priest to explore your question? He will have a much better idea.

    Isn't that kind of like taking driving lessons from a blind man?
    R (He is R, she is P)

  17. #17

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    Interesting discussion, and one that I'm staying (mostly) way out of

    I would, however refer those interested to these two books for some interesting insights:

    The End of Faith, by Sam Harris


    The Baptizing of America, by Rabbi James Rudin

    The first will really make you think (and the book is not long, but it also isn't easy) about just what the implications of faith are in the modern age. The second will give you an interesting non-christian insight into what's going on in the USA of late. I recommend both highly, even though I'm not done with Rabbi Rudin's book quite yet.

  18. #18

    Default Re: church

    I see some more interesting posts have been made. I've studied the Bible and history as much as if not more than most have. I don't find the Bible has a problem with swinging as its talked about on this site. Only doing it with consent and love.

    The acsetisism that lead the church to make sex the most evil thing in human exisitance I beleive has its roots not in the Jewish/Jesus/apostles sayings but in Greek gnostisism. The Greeks said the physical world was evil and the spiritual world was good. Jewdism and Christianity said God created every thing good and man very good. Ya, man fell into sin, but people are still created in the image of God. Plus the Bible teaches not that the body is evil but that God will redeem the body in the resurrection. The body of sin of the flesh is not the physical body but the evil nature that is in man. Its out of that heart Jesus said that somes evil fruit.

    Paul said I'm convinced in the Lord Jesus that everything is inheriantly clean. The poeple that were hung up over all kinds of petty rules Paul called weak. Its interesting that as I've watched the church saying ,the last few years, that for a man to look at a woman is adultery, has lead from I'm observation to women in the church are becoming weak as Paul used this work in 1 Cor. and Rom.

    No, my studies the Biblical words saying that almost all sexual acts are sin is from the the church redefinomg the words from what they mean when they were written and liberated Christians are going back to what they meant when they were orginally written.

    I hope that all comes across in love.

  19. #19

    Default Re: church

    Well, I’m pretty sure a Priest will have a greater understanding of “Christianity.” Sorry, a worthless liberal arts degree certainly doesn’t make an expert. It doesn't even help grammar! The people at the unemployment office know that.

  20. #20

    Default Re: church

    Quote Originally Posted by azmichael36
    Don’t you think a Priest will have a better understanding of “Christianity?” A worthless liberal arts degree certainly does not make an expert. It doesn’t even help grammar! The people standing at the unemployment office know that.
    True you need more than a liberal arts english course to konw what is going on in the Bible.
    I'm not sure who your refering to here. Spoomonkey has a Bible degree and I do also. I've almost of got a masters degree as well.

    What do you need to know? You need to know history cause even marriage isn't what it was in Bible times. Marrying for love only goes back 200 years. The goverment having the say in who is married and who isn't goes back to Martin Luther. Even the Roman Cathlic Church before that only had partial say over who was married and who wasn't. Thru most of human recorded history it was the parants who had the say in who got married. Those marriages weren't just for the couple either. They were political and economic marriages. That's not just rules that we read about in our history classes either. Marriages were a way for a family(clan/tribe) to extend their network of protection and economic trade. This was true of all faimlies. Even the terms: wife, concubine and handmadian didn't so much describe their relationships as their economic status.

    Then you need to know ancient languages. This is a weakness of mine, I'll admit. But I do have lexicons and a book case full of referances books. So for example I grew up with the definition of fornication being pre-marrital sex. Well, not one lexicon says the meaning of fornication is pre-marital sex. It turns out fornication is a Latin word that Jerome used in his Latin Volgate transation of the Bible. In Jeromes time fornication meant prostitute. Then I go to the Greek lexicons and what do they say of the greek word? They say illegal sex, prositution.

    Who am I to beleive? The church that told me a wrong definition of what the the porneia means or the Greek lexicons?

    its a simple for me. I'll follow Jesus that got mad at the religious leaders that put burdens on the people that even they didn't carry.

  21. #21

    Default Re: church

    Quote Originally Posted by azmichael36
    Don’t you think a Priest will have a better understanding of “Christianity?” A worthless liberal arts degree certainly does not make an expert. It doesn’t even help grammar! The people standing at the unemployment office know that.
    No, azmichael I most certainly do not. I know in my heart and soul that sex is not evil, and it in itself cannot corrupt man. Anyone who tells me otherwise gains my sympathy. And that has included church leaders. It shows a lack of ability to think outside the Christianity box, and if there is anyone who absolutely, 100% needs to be a pro-active thinker, it should be church leaders, fearlessly thinking ahead and pondering such problems. Ideally, the only people who should be qualified to lead a church should be people who have a committment to the betterment of mankind, a gift for far-reaching vision, and a burning desire - and ability - to share that vision with the masses. And a touch of humility, too. They need to realize that their position is one of great responsibility and influence, so it becomes a burden to bear when they must admit that they can and will make mistakes. And these mistakes, because of their influence, will hurt more people than if they were one of the followers.
    Fear is a symptom of ignorance. Knowledge is the cure.

  22. #22

    Default Re: church

    Quote Originally Posted by azmichael36
    Don’t you think a Priest will have a better understanding of “Christianity?”

    HA! Not!

    Now, I do not have a theological degree, and have never studied religion in any sense other than sitting in the congregation listening to the sermon, but I will say that it is my humble and probably not very enlightened opinion that preachers, ministers, priests, and all other "men of the cloth" are simply just that ... men (i.e., human) and prone to the same sins and mistakes as we are all. Because they carry a little more education in the area of religion and hold a title that assumes they are a little closer to God than the general masses, does not, in my opinion, get them any closer to God than the rest of us. Basically, while I carried faith for a long time, I do not believe in nor advocate "organized religion". I do not believe in sanctimonious, judgmental and self-righteous people telling others how they should live. I believe that churches have become more of a social structure than a faith-filled one, putting far too much emphasis on money and status than in the humble church days of old. I believe that many church-goers, preachers and the like sin in horrible ways sometimes more devastating than what non-church-goers do, and veil it under their "religion". I know people who have been "saved" and now perform every task with a prayer, but these same people are more harsh to their fellow man, more judgmental, more critical ... and THAT in itself wars with MY ideals of religion most of all.

    I will be honest; I have struggled with my views on religion for as long as I have known who and what God is. Since beginning swinging, I have refused to "practice" religion in any sense - I do not go to church, I do not really even pray anymore. In a sense, swinging has been at war with my faith and my Christian beliefs. It's like I have made a conscious decision that since swinging wars with what I have been taught, I feel like I am a hypocrite if I practice religion AND swing ...

    However, recently, I have been doing a great deal of thinking on the subject. Unfortunately, I think I have started to lean more towards the "Big Bang" and "Theory of Evolution" rather than the "Theory of Creation". :rollseyes Kidding ... Creation has been ingrained into my head since I was a very small child, so I am sure that the idea of God will never fully leave me. I will just say that I am so disappointed in the terrible things that occur on a daily basis in this world that I am constantly left questioning the intelligence in believing in a Greater Good. So many people who live under the cloak of God are just not good people down deep. And I do not care to be associated with that type of person.

    But most of all, I hate seeing really good people negatively affected by the world around them on a regular, systematic basis ... and where is God in these instances? Oh yeah, he's over there turning a blind eye to the child who is molested every single day for the last 8 years of her life, or he's allowing a serial killer to devastate the lives of 30 families before finally being caught, or he's looking the other way when a series of devastating hurricanes hit and destroy so many people's lives and livelihoods ... the list goes on, but I think those scenarios show how I feel.

    I do not want to get into a big war of the religions, but I just want to say that for me, the bottom line is live the best life I can, hurt no one knowingly, be kind as I can to my fellow man, treat others as I would like to be treated, don't cheat, lie or steal, do what I can to help others less fortunate when I can, raise my kids to be decent human beings with these same basic philosophies, and just hope I, my family and other decent human beings can simply get though this thing we call life. If there's a heaven on the other end, then I hope I lived my life well enough to gain entry. And if I didn't, then I will try to remember to pack a bathing suit on my way down south. :rollseyes
    Life is not measured by how many breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.

  23. #23

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    I really enjoyed your post. It’s the thoughts of a man who is thinking and trying to understand one of the most complicated issues for a Christian. And being honest about it too. I don’t claim to have the answer, I do think I can give you something to think about and I hope help you to the next level.

    As I said this topic is very complicated. There is no simple sentence that says, “OH here is the answer to that question.” Thus only those that are willing to wade thru a detailed thought can even really begin to know if there is an answer. Actually I have heard one simple answer. “There is no answer.” That position isn’t acceptable to me, personally.

    For most of my Christian life I thought there was no way God could have anything to do with evil, either natural or moral evil. When this topic came up I always said it was man’s sin that was the cause.

    Then I finally came to grip with God created this world and knew what was going to happen when he created it. I still don’t think God caused any one to do a specific act of evil, but God knew the act would happen before He created the world and He still went ahead and created it any ways. If God really is good, then even with the evil in this world one has to conclude that this is the best world God can create. That of course is no comfort. Since we can’t deny evil and live in reality one would think this leaves us in a very depressing conclusion.

    However, there seems to be one way out. That is to say that this present evil will create something very good in the future that can’t be created any other way. Thus the answer is a faith answer. Some will blow the idea away on that bases.

    What can God create this way that even He couldn’t do another way?
    1. With a perfect world there wouldn’t be compassion, loyalty, a determination to overcome hard situation and those types of things.
    2. If there is no test, would we really know what we are made of?
    3. If there were no offenses would we learn how to love, how to forgive, etc.
    4. If there wasn’t sin would we know the Love of God that he would become a man and die for us.
    5. Without trails would we know how to be thankful in a deeper way.

    Well, I think you get the idea. In a masters level class I wrote about 20 pages along this idea. Much more detailed. If any one wants to read what I wrote, email me at and I’ll resurrect the files.


  24. #24

    Default Re: church

    Very interesting discussion! I have had the privilege to attend university and complete three degrees a Bachelor of Arts in Comparative Religion, Master of Theology and most recently a Master of Counselling Psychology. The first and last degrees were in secular universities and the second a Christian university (total of eleven years – I know, I’m crazy!!! But I love being crazy!!). I mention this not because I feel I’m an expert, but to point out that issues of faith is much more involved than having the “education” or looking in the Sacred Writings for answers. I am no closer to the “truth” than I was 11 years ago. Nothing is absolute, and life is a journey of discovery. The writings in the Christian and Hebrew Scriptures are peoples quest for meaning - discover. What we have in Scripture began as oral stories eventually they were written down. All of us are engaged in the pursuit of meaning.
    Does the Christian Bible say anything about being bi or a play couple? NO! You will not find these issues in the Bible. There is negative reference to homosexuality, but only in a few places. There is much more about divorce, than about homosexuality! Most churches today accept divorce don’t they? There was a time when divorce was immoral. People were together “until death do us part” (lucky when the “death do us part” statement come into effect, people lived only to a very young age! And there were no CSI people!) Did the church change its mind regarding divorce? Something else to keep in mind, those who wrote about homosexuality did not understand or study God’s gift to humanity! We now understand more fully (well some what) that homosexuality is quite normal. Let’s face it, the unknown is very fearful for us — “There is nothing to fear but fear itself!” Fear drives us to do crazy thing!
    It is also worth your while to read about other cultures where there is sharing of partners. In such cases there are well set boundaries, but they “swing” woops did I say swing!!!! When whole cultures do this, we have to ask ourselves, “Is this whole culture wrong?” Hey, if a whole culture of people understand it as being fine, well, guess what? That helps my understanding.
    One last thought. It’s been helpful for me in my own personal journey and in working with clients, to understand religion in terms of Spirituality. Religion puts up walls that name who’s in and who’s out-- that is never helpful in any way. Such understanding is not exclusive to religious groups, but I think we do this all the time. Can you be a play couple and a Christian — I think you can be both, however, if there are questions raised for you, you need to use you God given gifts of Reason, tradition, and scripture figure it out. Ultimately, you have to make sense of your world! Thanks for you rear.... woops ear! :-)

  25. #25

    Default Re: church

    Beautifully put txduo and dayhiker!
    Fear is a symptom of ignorance. Knowledge is the cure.

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