If you could say one thing to society about swingers, what would it be and why?

Doing some research lately, I came across a question that really made me think about how society in general views the Lifestyle... In answering this question, I found that I had quite a bit to say, and that the response differed depending on who I imagined the audience to be... I addressed women, then men, then politicians and clergy, then family and friends...

If you could say one thing to society about swingers, what would it be and why?

"Don't judge others for doing something that you refuse to take the time to understand."

While I might disagree with the reasons that a couple might've reached their conclusion that swinging was not for them, I am not going to try to talk them out of what, for them, is the best decision. Because it is not my place to determine what is best for them.

I might gently voice my concern that, perhaps, they are missing some points that should be considered before reacing a final decision, but beyond that, it's none of my business. But for some reason, folks have no qualms whatsoever about harshly judging us for what we do, when all we want is for them to realize that they have NO stake in our marriage at all, and if it's going to fail, it'll be solely our fault (yes, we know you told us so. :rollseyes ). Their opinion will have no bearing on it at all. So why do they feel they have a right to tell us what is and is not right for our marriage, when they absolutely refuse to consider the merits of our choice? They have pre-judged us and jumped to some pretty hasty conclusions. Their reasoning just screams ignorance, but they just can't see how that can be.

This...drives me crazy.

Swingers are more vocally proud and loving of their significant other than anyone else that I have ever met. Unlike non-swinging couples, swingers are vocal about their adoration of their spouses, adamant about communication and commitment to the other's welfare, and careful about respecting other people's emotional/sexual/psychological growth. Swinger's are more empowering about loving yourself for who you are than any self-help book or feminist website.

What? “We adore each other. We enjoy doing things with other people, including but not limited to having sex with them. We are among the happiest people we know; in our marriage, family, and the rest of our lives.

That’s just us though…you do what works for you.”

Why? "The more you can be true to yourself, the better off you and everyone around you will be."

They can be best friends and communicate!

I think that only swinging couples have the ability to be able to talk as openly and honestly with each other as they would when confiding in a best friend.

Vanilla couples seem to spend much more time talking and confiding in thier friends than their spouse.

I guess I'm a little stuck on this one this morning. I can't seem to think of one thing to say to society because my responses would be different to each group in society. I don't think my answers would be the same to my preacher as it would be to my neighbors. I'm going to give this some thought today because it is a very good question.

Yes, swingers are the most open, honest people I know. Especially in their significant relationship. There are MUCH fewer divorces among swingers and virtually no cheating. They are self-confident, fun-loving people. The self-confident part because they have no jealousy about their sig-other having sex with people 'cause they know their relationship is on solid ground and when the playing is over, they will be there for each other. The fun-loving part is obvious.

Society in general should realize that, for some people, the man-made rules about sex are archaic and not necesary. They can have fun, enjoy their and somebody else's body and still have a deep, long-lasting love for their spouse. Bottom line? Nobody gets hurt!

"Don't judge others for doing something that you refuse to take the time to understand."

Dito

So why do they feel they have a right to tell us what is and is not right for our marriage, when they absolutely refuse to consider the merits of our choice? They have pre-judged us and jumped to some pretty hasty conclusions. Their reasoning just screams ignorance, but they just can't see how that can be.

 

This...drives me crazy.

I believe people (we ALL) become judgamental about others after an identification exercise where we try to put ourselves in those others shoes and evaluate how the situtation would affect us. There's nothing wrong about this, for as long as we can ensuring this proccess to be properly done, and the key factor here is the evaluation. To be accurate it is required quality information, in other words, what you said: "take the time to understand".

I feel most people reacts from their own fears when doing this identification process. They say "what would motivate ME to be swinger? what would motivate MY wife to screw some other guy?". The lack of understanding of the evolution required for a couple as to become succesful swingers leaves them with their own fears to fill the void. If they fear not being loved enough they would answer "I'd be motivated because I don't get enough love and I am unhappy with my marriage. She'd be motivated because she doesn't love me enough and she's unhappy with our marriage". If they have low self esteem issues they would answer "I'd be motivated because I cannot fulfill my wife needs. She'd be motivated because she needs a better one than myself".

We cannot avoid to feel we're the world's bellybutton. We born alone, die alone, and bear with the world with our subjectivity. When we make a judgment about someone's else behavior, we're not judging that one, we're judging OURSELVES being on that one shoes.

Our judgamental attitudes tells more about ourselves than about the ones being judged. The refusal to take time to understand this sort of things is the refusal to open the Pandora box in our own lives: we just don't want to know, don't want to face things that may hurt us while not having the tools to deal with them.

This is something that comes along with being humans, it has nothing to do with being vanilla.

I could formulate the same question about polyamoral relationships to the swingers audience. From the posts in this board I can tell most swingers are adverse to the polyamoral relationship idea, some of us strongly advice against developing emotional bonds with playmates as if this were a pest ("this leads to catastrophe for sure", instead of "beware, it may work out but it's risky"). We're not judging polyamoral relationships here, we're judging ourselves, how a polyamoral relationship could affect our feeling towards each other and threat our marriage should WE were engaging in it.

Swinging isn't the ultimate step in the relationship evolution, nor polyamoral relationships are.

We born alone, die alone, and we're trapped in this selfish cage. Some of us strauggle to get out of the cage, to extend our arms beyond the cage bars, to increase the cage size.

Swinging is just another sample of this struggle, we dare to face the same world vanilla people face every day, but after giving up some of our selfish feelings. We find this rewarding. And from this reward, the sex ends up being the iceberg tip, most of the reward is under the surface, it is a very personal experience hard to put in words. I am pretty sure that if the reward were just what can be seen above the surface, many of us wouldn't be swinging. At least, I wouldn't.

However, we're the ones emphatizing the recreational sex aspect as the one defining the lifestyle. It is true, it's the activity we engage into, but we fail to transmit this is the tip of the iceberg. Then, we cannot blame on others because they're unable to see what's under the water.

Intuition's way of putting it was so much nicer, that anything I could come up with, so I would say I gotta go with her statement. But I have a basic philosophical belief that everyone has their own "rule book" for life. Some people have Don't lie in that book, others have Lying is okay. I have never tried to rewrite someone else's book, and it burns me to have someone try to rewrite mine.

This is what I DO TELL my "vanilla" friends,

"I have more fun than you and I'm happier."

What's really sad is that it is all too true!

I'd say this:

"We understand that sex and love are two very distinct things, and that our marriage is not based upon any physical act. Rather, our marriage is based on a strong foundation of mutual trust, love, respect and communication. Standing on our strong foundation, we choose to include others in our sex life as a shared adventure; as an enhancement, not as a replacement. Enjoying ourselves this way has made a happy marriage even happier."

Very well put sereneiders! People judge what they fear, and what the fear is usually something within themselves. It's easier to go along blindly following what your told then to question and delve into some deep introspection that may be painful, no matter how liberating or growth promoting it may be.

Just like the Marriage Amendment debate. I have not heard one logical, rational, or well thought-out answer to the question "if homosexuals are allowed to marry traditional marriages will crumble." Every answer I hear is given from emotion with nothing to back-up the opinion. However, the amount of information against the amendment is overwhelming.

Same goes for swinging. In May the local CBS affiliate ran an expose on swingers in Utah. It was the typical sweeps/ratings crap. When all was said and done it was a non-story. Nothing was exposed. They couldn't prove any harm to society. But they had the usual suspects to support their story. When their message board lit-up with the discussions afterward the channel would censor pro-swinging comments and not allow them to be posted.

The angle of this story is how swingers were leading good Mormon men into adultry. How we are luring them away from their wife. In this story the news channel posted a fake ad on Swingular and in their report they noted they had 70 responses within a week, "most from married men". So is that the swingers fault or the married man looking to cheat? The married men solicit swingers, not visa-versa. But they had already made-up their mind on the story they were going to brainwash the public, err... tell the public and that's what they did. Truth be damned.

And loaded with that little bit of misinformation, the general public forms it's uninformed opinion. Why educate yourself when you can just believe what you saw from the comfort of your Lazyboy?

People know nothing about swinging, but condemn it because it's not how they live their life. It's not for them, so it must not be for anyone else either. They fear what they do not know, and it's easier to hate and condemn then to learn and develop their own opinion. They don't listen, and when they don't have a good argument they can back-up with facts they go directly to the "swinging leads to child molestation and beastiality" angle, which they can't support either.

Okay back to the original question. What would I say to someone? That is difficult because what I'd say to someone that knows us well would be different than what I'd say to someone that does not know us and our relationship at all. When we've told friends we felt could handle it, it has required very little explanation because they know how good our relationship is already. They don't have the immediate "you're looking for replacement sex" attitude because we are already the most sexual couple they know.

If is someone that we don't know the message would be different, more along the lines of what swinging is, and what it isn't. The problem here is you'll have two categories of people, those that are swinger-friendly and those that are not. The latter is not even worth talking to because whatever you say will fall upon deaf ears (much like the newstation's target audience) and you won't change their opinion.

WS, would you happen to have the link(s) to that article?

Here you go. I think the video of the actual story is still available there too.

https://www.ksl.com/article/254254

I may not have started swinging yet but I have already started to feel the effects of the lifestyle . More confidence, I feel sexy ALL THE TIME. I spend more time getting ready in the morning. I can't explain exactly why, but the feeling is there, and it is a feeling I have NEVER felt in a nonswinging relationship . My lover is more affectionate than any other I have. Communication is key in this lifestyle, you really need to know and trust your partner. You can't get that level of communication from a relationship that is not as open as a swinging couples relationship.

Did I ramble, or better yet did I get my point across effectively?

Concupiscence said:

Swingers are more vocally proud and loving of their significant other than anyone else that I have ever met. Unlike non-swinging couples, swingers are vocal about their adoration of their spouses, adamant about communication and commitment to the other's welfare, and careful about respecting other people's emotional/sexual/psychological growth. Swinger's are more empowering about loving yourself for who you are than any self-help book or feminist website.

Well said!

One of the top posts I've read about the Lifestyle in ages.

WesternSwing said:

Here you go. I think the video of the actual story is still available there too.

 

https://www.ksl.com/article/254254

Ugh!! Man, that is some of the nastiest, most ignorant reporting I have ever seen! Un-freakin'-believable. And the 'me-too's on the message board...it's just vicious. They go as far as suggesting that swingers are child molesters. Yeah. I'm not kidding.

But we're the sick ones... :rollseyes

What one thing would I say to the vanilla world about swinging? This vanilla world, on a newschannel's website??

I wouldn't say a damn thing at all. Except perhaps to express my distaste at the classlessness I saw. I've tried and tried to explain our position to people such as these, and you know what? It was a complete waste of time. So if they have that little respect for others, if they prove themselves so incapable of understanding logic and reason, then as far as I'm concerned, they haven't earned my valuable time.

You folks, on the other hand... obviously, you've all earned my time! I'll likely haunt this message board after I'm dead!

hey WesternSwing,

I just checked out that website. OUCH, those people are harsh.

Do any of them know what they are talking about. The ones with their horror stories. Well, I have had really bad monogomous relationships but I don't go around saying that it is a bad lifestyle. After awhile it became a bashing, no real intelligence to speak of.

What is my esquire guy. I DO speak for you. My butt you do.

I have never in my life been so PO'ed. What is with quoting scriptures.

I really don't know what to say here, I was floored by this joke of a story and even more by the lack of tolerance, does god not teach tolerance???

"Living well is the best revenge."

I've read the article. It would be nice to know what else was covered by this "research team", because we may suspect about theyr objectivity. Let's face it, news media needs to fulfill the void when they have anything else to tell us, and they have to attract an audience. This article is just one example of the way this network choose to accomplish those two goals, and of course they will mute any voice challenging their "findings". After all they're just running a business there.

Perhaps it is worth to say that controlling the population sexuality inside a community was a well know way to fulfill a political agenda. This, plus ignorance and fear render people useless to challenge such an agenda, to organize themselves, and to look after their own wellfare. And perhaps one of the easiest and less expensive ways to lead people behavior is to pull their fears strings: we all have fears, and in absence of information the fears grow to fill the void and justify our actions, wheter they were usefull or damagin to us.

It's interesting because this is this article substance: a collection of fear inflamatory statement whithout any ground on reality. Who needs reality and understanding if we all have fears to use instead?

Well surprise surprise.

My opinion is not worthy of being posted on the papers comment list.

there was however a wonderfully written comment there from E.B.

Nicely written. I am guessing you are from this group by the comment of being on their soap box.

I noticed that the swingers were not attacking the narrow minded gits that were in the forum. But I tell you they attacked any swinger who had the guts to comment.

Really smart comebacks as well. Like one was a long, well expressed comment and the gits said by the "length" of the comment he was making up for his "short" comings.

These are ridiculous people. I love you guys and have no intention on backing out of this lifestyle now that I have found it, but is this common place? Do they really think we molest children. Was it not that long ago that these same people blamed Gays and Lesbians of this very garbage . And look at wonderful families they make . I was molested as a kid and he was from a "happy marriage". He was heterosexual as well. Hey he could be any one of these morons on the forum.

I just have to remind myself that small minds produce small ideas.

hee hee. I just can't seem to help getting in my two cents. E.B. was me. I'm not giving them my friggin' name! They'd likely post it with other swingers' names sex-offender-style to warn the public about me.

If you want the LS to grow even biased crap stories help. People get curious, people look around, people find places like this board.

One of the reasons I even started this thread was because I knew that you folks couldn't keep your .02 to yourselves, and that is what makes it so rewarding to be here!

I practically had a sermon, in response to this question myself... with permission (and apologies for the long response) I will share with you. Don't be too harsh with your comments...

To the women in vanilla society: Give it a break… everyone is different and likes things that you don’t like. I HATE asparagus, but if you want to eat asparagus every day for the rest of your life, I won’t look down on you for it. If I want to have sex with other women and men … or men dressed like women, or men that used to be women, or woman that used to be men, then pass the butter and salt over to me, cause this is what I like. I’m not hurting you or your family, or society by doing so. I can still prepare a hell of a tax return and then blow your husband under the desk if I wanted to. I can still represent you in tax court while I’m wondering what the judge is really wearing under his robe. I can watch our daughter’s cheerleading coach and fantasize about kissing her, and still listen to your rendition of the fight you and your husband had last night, because he looked at the waitress at Denny’s a bit too long. I’m not after your husband, I won’t try to convert you to be bi, and I’m glad that you are happy with your life the way it is.

For the men in vanilla society: I am a happily married woman. I love my husband and wouldn’t trade him for all the penises in the world, not even yours. I am not a whore, not a cheater (can you say that about YOUR wife?), not embarrassing my husband by enjoying others in his presence and he doesn’t embarrass me when he offers me to another man or woman or when I warm “her up” for him. I cook, clean, and can host a wonderful party – sometimes all in the nude. I am a woman who doesn’t have to command respect, I earn it and deserve it, no matter what you think. In the words of Pussycat Dolls (good name, huh) “Dontcha wish your girlfriend was hot like me”? All men want a “lady in the street and a freak in bed” – well, that’s me. I’m the cute bank teller, the Denny’s waitress, the X-ray tech, or maybe even your auto-mechanic. I won’t seduce you or your wife (even though we may think about it in the mall, it’s against our rules) and don’t prey after your adolescent sons and daughters, or your pets.

For the politicians and priests: (Talk about Strange Bedfellows, huh?) We don’t seek your approval or new legislation to accept our Lifestyle. We don’t want to file tax returns as a non-profit organization. We practice safe sex, just like the majority of people who are not undergoing fertility testing and artificial insemination in order to have babies, and we won’t produce unwanted children that the welfare system has to support now and the Social Security system has to support 65 years from now. We don’t want your health insurance company to cover our play-partners on our employee plan. We won’t tell you in the confessional that we sinned – we just had sex, just like Adam and Eve did. Were they married, or did I read the Cliff’s notes version of the Bible and miss that part?

For our parents and kids: We love you just like we always have. We aren’t kids, we are adults making decisions about our lives that don’t concern you. We will not embarrass you in front of your friends or other family members.

To anyone else who will listen: WE ARE HAPPY BEING SWINGERS!!

Chicup said:

If you want the LS to grow even biased crap stories help. People get curious, people look around, people find places like this board.

Yeah, you should have seen the surge of memberships on Swingular (the website shown in the story) after the piece aired. Of course, I don't know how many are real and how many are just people looking for their neighbors and spouses.

By the way... Great post driveajeepnaked!

Well, I stated somewhere else in this forum before that the "no political discussion allowed" means "no politically wrong statements allowed". Then you replace "political" with "religion" or whatever you may like and it is the same.

Wheter emerging from a community (as happens here), or from the forum owners (as happens there), there are standards on what and how to speak, a framework for the discussions that have to be shared among members. When you exceed the framweork (even one so narrow as that forum one) you're deem as a troll. In that forum we'd be trolls just by deffending our ideas, as much as here they would be trolls if deffending theirs.

In a thread about trolling, JustAskJulie gave us a great insight of why to have a tolerating policy about them: whatever they said would have some grounds on actual issues, thus they would provide us some food for thought and this is valuable. In the other hand these guys state they have an untolerant policy, wich is a way to say they dislike having food for thought, in other words, to have thinkers among their members.

So, there's no way for us to interfer the way these folks (and less their audience) thinks, at least not inside their forum. With some luck, we may lead by example, taking the time to review our (personal) discussion framework periodically as to ensure we wont become as stubborn as they're showing they are.

WesternSwing said:

Here you go. I think the video of the actual story is still available there too.

 

https://www.ksl.com/article/254254

I'd just like to give a big "Fuck you" to KSL. You can't blame responsible adults enjoying each others company for the sexual frustration a lot of LDS members are raised up into with no healthy outlet available to them thanks to the archaic beliefs that are pushed on the membership by the church leadership.

WS is right though. It's not the fault of the people willing to throw away their marriage in order to sow some wild oats in the eyes of the general public. It's the unwitting swingers that are to blame, what with their communities set aside for their chosen life-style and requests for discretion and maturity. It simply HAS to be the swinger's fault.

I love run on sentences.

While I know not everyone carries a dirty secret like that, so many do.

Let me tell you!! Yesterday I literally found out that my cousin's husband (they are getting a divorce) was screwing her brother's wife! He was screwing his frickin sister in law! So now 2 of my cousins are divorcing their spouses, who are "in love" with each other. I tell you, when you look at that and you look at the lifestyle, how are WE the ones that are immoral??

I have tried - fruitlessly - to state our case. And I've walked away from that brick wall of a forum with nothing more to show for my efforts than a lump on my forehead. I get the image in my head of one person trying to reason with another, and that other person with his fingers in his ears, eyes rolled skyward, screaming at the top of his lungs as loud and fast as he can "La-la-la-I-can't-hear-you". Then when the other person gives up trying to reason with a two-year-old - because we must realize that they apparently don't have the capacity for reason - they pop their fingers out of their ears and say, "Hah! Told you I was right! Yeah, run you coward!" You don't know whether to shake your head and feel sorry for them, or turn around and just... SLAP them! My GOD, how can people be so bloody closed-minded and petty??

I agree with ShellyM; I think that the temptation to be non-monogamous is something that every couple ends up dealing with sooner or later. But this propaganda that "monogamy is your marriage's salvation" is so deeply ingrained in some people that it is a definitive part of them now. They just CAN'T see it any other way. It's like trying to explain colour to someone who has been colour-blinded since birth. They say that people fear what they do not know. The unknown is perceived as a threat. And to say that your spouse doesn't need to be sexually exclusive with you to be happy is to strike fear into the hearts of the insecure. "No, no, no!" they cry, "He HAS to be completely and utterly mine! He has to worship me and never, ever look at another woman again...or else I won't feel special." :rollseyes What a crock. If they could only stop obsessing over the sex part, they'd see that this is an empowerment, not a handicap.

But that's the funny thing about swinging. If you choose to make it a handicap...it will be.

Quote

If you could say one thing to society about swingers, what would it be and why?

I would say clean your own house before you start cleaning mine, because you are throwing rocks while living in glass.

And you know, prob half of the people who produced, directed and did the work for this piece have had affairs on their wives, husbands, or significant others. Society is just so hypocritical.

"I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts." ~ Bethania McKenstry

 

I agree with ShellyM; I think that the temptation to be non-monogamous is something that every couple ends up dealing with sooner or later. But this propaganda that "monogamy is your marriage's salvation" is so deeply ingrained in some people that it is a definitive part of them now.

Oh, the Mormons didn't always place monogamy on a pedestal like they do today. Hell, when practicing polygamy they were downright against it as these quotes from past church leaders indicate.

"It is a fact worthy of note that the shortest lived nations of which we have record have been monogamic. Rome...was a monogamic nation and the numerous evils attending that system early laid the foundation for that ruin which eventually overtook her."

- Apostle George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 202

 

"Since the founding of the Roman empire monogamy has prevailed more extensively than in times previous to that. The founders of that ancient empire were robbers and women stealers, and made laws favoring monogamy in consequence of the scarcity of women among them, and hence this monogamic system which now prevails throughout Christendom, and which had been so fruitful a source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian monogamic cities of the Old and New World, until rottenness and decay are at the root of their institutions both national and religious."

- The Prophet Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 128

 

"...the one-wife system not only degenerates the human family, both physically and intellectually, but it is entirely incompatible with philosophical notions of immortality; it is a lure to temptation, and has always proved a curse to a people."

- Prophet John Taylor, Millennial Star, Vol. 15, p. 227

 

"Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman empire....Rome became the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers.... Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practiced it. 'And is that religion popular in heaven?' it is the only popular religion there,..."

- The Prophet Brigham Young, The Deseret News, August 6, 1862

 

"This law of monogamy, or the monogamic system, laid the foundation for prostitution and the evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern Christendom groans,..."

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, page 195

 

"We breathe the free air, we have the best looking men and handsomest women, and if they (Non-Mormons) envy us our position, well they may, for they are a poor, narrow-minded, pinch-backed race of men, who chain themselves down to the law of monogamy, and live all their days under the dominion of one wife. They ought to be ashamed of such conduct, and the still fouler channel which flows from their practices; and it is not to be wondered at that they should envy those who so much better understand the social relations."

- Apostle George A Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, page 291

 

"I have noticed that a man who has but one wife, and is inclined to that doctrine, soon begins to wither and dry up, while a man who goes into plurality [of wives] looks fresh, young, and sprightly. Why is this? Because God loves that man, and because he honors his word. Some of you may not believe this, but I not only believe it but I also know it. For a man of God to be confined to one woman is small business. I do not know what we would do if we had only one wife apiece."

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses Vol 5, page 22

 

"Just ask yourselves, historians, when was monogamy introduced on to the face of the earth? When those buccaneers, who settled on the peninsula where Rome now stands, could not steal women enough to have two or three apiece, they passed a law that a man should have but one woman. And this started monogamy and the downfall of the plurality system. In the days of Jesus, Rome, having dominion over Jerusalem, they carried out the doctrine more or less. This was the rise, start and foundation of the doctrine of monogamy; and never till then was there a law passed, that we have any knowledge of, that a man should have but one wife. "

- The Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Vol. 12, page 262

They are using the exact same arguments against homosexuality today while trumpeting monogamy as a fail-safe path to a happy marriage.

I've gone toe to toe with the apologists on their payroll and can safely say that they obfuscate the debated topic on hand when possible, and if necessary, are downright intellectually corrupt. I owe my becoming disenchated with the LDS faith, reading up on it's history, and leaving the church almost entirely to their star apologist Daniel C Peterson.

It's a pervasive mindset in the faith unfortunately. There are a lot of great people in the church, but they are terrified to take off the blinders and will bulldog the party line ruthlessly until those with points of view they don't agree with concede out of frustration just to end the debate.

And you know, prob half of the people who produced, directed and did the work for this piece have had affairs on their wives, husbands, or significant others. Society is just so hypocritical.

Key parties are alive and well in quite a few LDS circles. Stake leaders, bishops, church leadership across the board. I've heard more than my fair share of hypocritical sexual behavior regarding church leaders. This really isn't all that surprising considering the church's founder was marrying other men's wives behind their back, marrying 14 year old children, and lying about not having any polygamous affairs when in fact he was fucking other men's wives for years in secret.

It may just be my experiences as well, but the women don't get nearly the respect they deserve in any capacity in the church. I'd imagine they're not getting much at these key parties as well.

I couldn't help myself Intuition, I responded to you on KSL but I do not know yet if they will post it. After having responded there I would like to ammend my soapbox response from earlier. I am going to paraphrase it though, because as usual I forgot to copy it and paste it.

soapbox (clears throat) I am a swinger. I am a good mother. I am a good wife. I do not lie, steal, or cheat people. I am a good, hardworking, open minded, fair, considerate of other's feelings, proffesional citizen who is lucky enough to live in a country where I can live my life the way I choose. I do not live on welfare because I am too lazy to work, and I do not continuously have children I cannot care for, so that I can retain my benefits. I do not believe in getting something for nothing. I help those who cannot help themselves, and also those who do help themselves. But what so many people do not see or perhaps they don't want to see is...

We are swingers. And we are everywhere. We are your doctors, your lawyers, your police officers. We are your school teachers, your construction workers, your electricians and plumbers, your business owners, your cooks, your waiters, your retail workers, and even the guy who changes your oil that you never say thank you too. We sell you cars daily. We buy cars from you daily. We go to church with you. We are your neighbors next door, your friends, your family members. We hear what you say about us when you judge us and we just shake our heads at the closemindedness and love you anyway. We are swingers. We are happy. We will not change what we do, simply because a few have deemed themselves worthy of being the "morality police" Accept it or not, but if you choose not, you are only going to work yourself up for nothing. For we will not change until we choose too, and even then it will not be because of you, or because we believe the way you do. It will be because we want too. (climbing off soapbox now)

1:41 am here in Kingston, ON, and it hasn't been posted yet. Very nicely put MLK! I hope they post it.

However I have very faint hopes of anyone actually listening to what we say. I sweat every time I log on to something like that and see that someone has responded to me. Why? I guess because I enjoy being verbally beaten about as much as the next guy. It really bothers me that some people actually have their heads that far up their asses, you know what I mean? I love all people, I really do. Even the assholes. I just feel sorry for the ignoramues* who are so busy listening to themselves spit out the same old bullshit they were brainwashed with that they can't see what is staring them in the face.

*I'm sure the plural of 'ignoramus' is probably something like ignorami or something like that, but that sounds really stupid.

When I first told my friends, they thought I was a slut for doing it. Now they ask me for details. Everyone has their own opinions, and if you show that what you do does not make you into a worse person, or affect anyone else's life in a bad way, then eventually they will accept it even if its taboo in our society. I am not saying that you have to go around and prove that to everyone though. If I had to speak to anyone about swinging who had an objection towards it, I would say that I am still me with or without. I am not a bad person, I still have my moral, values, and I am still a great mother and wife.

-Krystal

Here is a perfect example that we watched unfold in front of us last night.

Mrs. WS and I were invited by another swinger couple to go to a “drunk movie night” with them and some friends, a mixed group. In fact, them and us were the only swingers in the group, but I guess they feel we are discrete enough that we can be around their vanilla friends without a problem. There was us, them, a couple from her church (their names I can’t remember this morning), another couple S (wife) and D (husband) and a recently divorced single male we’ll call L from our friend’s volleyball team.

When we arrived at the sports bar near the theatre they had already been there a half hour or so and all of them were feeling pretty good. The introductions were done. Somehow, Mrs. WS and I thought L was married to S all through dinner because they were sitting next to each other and flirty and all. We found out he is recently divorced when we were walking to the theatre.

So after we all buy our tickets, get in and get settled, Mrs. WS and I excuse ourselves to use the bathroom before the previews start. As we are walking out of the theatre into the hallway we run right into L and S making out in the darkness just inside the door! He gets all flustered and kind of laughs as he works past us and S makes a beeline across the hall into the women’s room. Mrs. WS and I are like deer caught in the headlights.

So we go to the restroom and Mrs. WS waits for me outside in the hallway. She tells me S came out of a stall and blazed past her to get out of the bathroom, not even stopping to wash her hands. When we get back to our seats L is sitting next to Mrs. WS and they chit-chat a little. Our friend takes us aside from the group and she’s kind of giggling (well she was tipsy) and tells us L had asked her if “their friends would say anything”, which she of course told them “no, they're cool”.

So everyone returns to their seats and over the next fifteen minutes both S and L disappear again. This time to the unisex bathroom, where they stayed most of the movie. Our At the end, the wife of our friends goes to find them and comes back with S. We never see L again. The story was they were both sick and were sleeping it off in their cars.

So Mrs. WS and I are left wondering, is S’s husband D oblivious to what was going on? Does he know but not care? We know for sure they are not swingers. The bottom line was that their actions left all of us a bit uncomfortable. We were watching a train wreck happen. But the general idea amongst the vanillas was “we know what’s happening but we’ll just pretend it isn’t.”

Now, what would have happened if S, D, and L were swingers and the vanilla’s knew they were and S and L had permission to go off and play while D watched the movie? Based on what I’ve read on the Oprah and KSL bulletin boards, that would be immoral and there’d be a witch-hunt. But, they’ll turn the other way if S is cheating on D with L. Blows my mind how by many cheating is considered just a part of life, but having sex with others with the permission of your spouse is depraved.

I'm sure I'll get more than a few criticisms from the group here but I really need to speak up and say something to all of you who are into the swinging lifestyle.

You know, I have no problem with couples who want to swing. As long as it's not hurting me, more power to you. What I have found is that swingers I've met tend to like to make it sound like the lifestyle is a utopia and a perfect world. Unfortunately, they're in denial. This group is like any other society; there are the honest, upfront people who simply enjoy the lifestyle and can still keep a relationship alive and loving at the same time. And then there are the liars, the fakes, the cheats, etc.

In the short amount of time my boyfriend and I swung, this is what we encountered:

The first couple we met were very nice; we had a great time the first time we met for dinner. The husband told us via email that his wife was bisexual and that he often had a threesome with a girl they had gotten to know. What we eventually discovered (and the husband admitted), was that the wife was NOT bisexual and had no interest in even being sensual with another woman.

The second couple we met online was older (50s) We had quite a few conversations before finally traveling to meet them face to face. They had always sent us pictures of the wife but never the husband. She was quite pretty and had a beautiful body; he was the exact opposite AND, he was very different in person, personality-wise, than he was online and on the phone. Needless to say, we were disappointed.

The third couple we met told us they were fine with soft swinging even though they were very much on the wild side. It was obvious within about five minutes of being in their hotel room after dinner that they were out to "convert" us. As well, we had made it clear we only played together. They had originally said they did also; come to find out during dinner the husband didn't like playing next to anyone else when he was with a woman. Can you say disrespectful and deceitful?

The fourth couple we met kept us laughing throughout dinner. Even though they had advertised they were wild they were very reassuring that they would be willing to soft swing as well. They told us they had been swinging for years and only played together. We thought we had finally found a nice couple to spend time with. A few weeks later, the man called me on the phone and propositioned me to spend time with him alone. I would have to say that would have to go under the category of dishonesty.

We've talked to another couple that lives several states away who got herpes from another swinging couple. I've heard so many swingers state that they are safer than the general population and STDs are very rare among the group. I'd like to see the statistics proving this "fact". As well, we were honest and stated in our profile that we had herpes. We found out from one of the other couples that others in the group locally had been talking about us, saying they had seen our profile and made derogatory comments essentially making us dirty pariahs. I'd like you to know that EVERY SINGLE couple we contacted (more than we actually ended up meeting) knew very little about STDs and didn't even have regular yearly checkups.

After this I decided I'd had enough of the swinger lifestyle. Besides the bad experiences, it was too much work to have to date three people instead of just one.

I also met and befriended a gal who was in the swinger world with her boyfriend for several years. She broke things off with him after she found out he was cheating on her with other swingers behind her back. She now believes that most swingers are in the lifestyle as a last ditch effort to save their marriages or it's their way of cheating and making themselves believe they aren't.

So, say what you like but also realize, when you put down the "vanillas", you're just as judgmental as the vanillas who put you down. The lifestyle isn't for everyone, in fact, many people live very happy, fulfilling lives without ever swinging. Amazing, isn't it?

Let the bashing begin!

Well, BT, sounds like you've had a streak of crappy luck. It's true, there's not a single couple we've played with that didn't have their hang-ups...just like we do. You're right, there is no perfect swingertopia. But we have the vision for one, and all we can do is keep aiming for it...and try and be smart along the way. No one said it was a perfect system. And the bottom line for some is that it's more hassle than it's worth.

bt2530 said:

So, say what you like but also realize, when you put down the "vanillas", you're just as judgmental as the vanillas who put you down. The lifestyle isn't for everyone, in fact, many people live very happy, fulfilling lives without ever swinging. Amazing, isn't it?

 

Let the bashing begin!

Well, I'm not going to bash you. Your post was very informative and I'm sorry you had those experiences. It happens. Like you elude to, dating in the Lifestyle is even harder then dating as a single vanilla.

However, seeing you've just posted your first post today I'll assume you haven't read many of my posts. Over and over I have said that swinging isn't for everybody. In fact that is why less then 1% of the general population is swingers. And that's okay.

In my opinion though, vanillas on the whole are much more judgemental of swingers then swingers are of vanillas. If you need proof of this check out the KSL message board and see what they say about swingers.

If anything the majority of us just look back at ourselves before swinging and think "wow, look how far we have come." It's not being critical of them at all. I have a very "live and let live" attitude about life. I won't judge you and tell you how to live, all I ask is that you give me the same respect. Unfortunately, many don't.

No I haven't read many posts, having just registered today.

Can I make one more point? Even calling people "vanillas" is a judgment and a stereotype. That insinuates that those of us not interested in engaging in the swinging lifestyle are boring. I've traveled around the world, summited mountains... does that sound boring to you? Maybe so. But I've found that helping to build a house for someone in Mongolia and seeing the families' faces as they enter their new abode has given me so much more pleasure than paying $50 to go to a club and watch other people have sex. And mind you, I find that very pleasurable.

I guess I'm just trying to help people in the lifestyle see there is just as much judgment on their end as it is in the vanilla (or rainbow sherbet ) world; even if it's done in a more subtle way.

Thanks for listening.

No I haven't read many posts, having just registered today.

 

Can I make one more point? Even calling people "vanillas" is a judgment and a stereotype. That insinuates that those of us not interested in engaging in the swinging lifestyle are boring. I've traveled around the world, summited mountains... does that sound boring to you? Maybe so. But I've found that helping to build a house for someone in Mongolia and seeing the families' faces as they enter their new abode has given me so much more pleasure than paying $50 to go to a club and watch other people have sex. And mind you, I find that very pleasurable.

 

I guess I'm just trying to help people in the lifestyle see there is just as much judgment on their end as it is in the vanilla (or rainbow sherbet ) world; even if it's done in a more subtle way.

 

Thanks for listening.

I beg to differ. I have only ever used "vanilla" in a derogatory way to describe people who have gone out of their way to deserve a label that implies ignorance. I make no assumptions. I have NO doubt whatsoever that otherwise politely-labeled vanillas (aka non-swingers...no more, no less) lead exciting lives. Sex ain't everything! And while there are some people even here on this board who choose not to be non-monogamous, we like to call them our French Double-Creme Deluxe Vanillas. facelick There's nothing derogatory in that whatsoever. It is simply a choice they have made, and they took the time and effort to fully consider all their options. It is those who refuse to open their minds up to even the possibility of non-monogamy being an option - and then are judgmental towards those of us who do - that I have a problem with. I just think if they have a problem with it,then just smile and say "It's certainly not for me. End of story." If someone asks them why, then by all means, go ahead and explain. But otherwise, no one is interested in just how poorly they think of us.

I have a problem with the people who are judgmental towards others who choose to be non-monagamous as well. But you miss my point.

Do you feel it would be okay for a white person to call a black person who has been racist towards them the "n" word? I was trying to say that lowering yourself to someone else's level isn't the answer. And if you read many of the posts carefully on just this one string, you will see that underlying judgment.

Look, I'm more of a peace/harmony type person. But before everyone can truly work towards a more utopian universe one of the first things we all need to do (including myself at times), is to stop pointing fingers and calling names. And to really look inside ourselves and wonder why we get so upset over people we feel misunderstand us.

"We would worry less about what others think of us if we realized how seldom they do." - Ethel Barrett

You know, I have no problem with couples who want to swing. As long as it's not hurting me, more power to you. What I have found is that swingers I've met tend to like to make it sound like the lifestyle is a utopia and a perfect world. Unfortunately, they're in denial. This group is like any other society; there are the honest, upfront people who simply enjoy the lifestyle and can still keep a relationship alive and loving at the same time. And then there are the liars, the fakes, the cheats, etc.

You're right. But this has to do with the way you define the lifestyle. For example, there are married people who cheat, but marriage isn't defined as an activity where people cheat.

Groucho Merx said "the first cause of divorce is marriage", well it is a good joke, but the fact is, divorce is one possible outcome from marriage, only married people can divorce, but when you talk about marriage you wouldn't focus on the risk of divorcing as to define it.

Every choice we make in our life, wheter to do or to avoid doing something, implies certain risks. To live is a risky activity, but you wouldn't define life by means of the risks you'd face.

Much the same way, the lifestyle isn't defined by the problems you may face inside it, but by a set of values most swingers use to share and like to preserve.

Of course, there are people who claim to be swingers, but whose behavior would be ill seen among the swingers community. The same way that there are religious people claiming to support a morality that forbids adultery but are cheaters themselves. You couldn't blame those guys religion nor the moral standars because of his missbehavior, and the same way, you cannot blame the swingers community because of the missbehavior from people that claim to be swingers but doesn't fit our community standards.

In the short amount of time my boyfriend and I swung, this is what we encountered:

...

Being this your first post, it seems to me you didn't use the resources at hand, like asking other swingers for advice on how to deal with those situations or to avoid dissappointments. I am pretty sure there are clues you missed before dissapointing, and you can read about those in the forum.

The community have standards, and we face issues related to the evaluation of those standards and how to enforce them to avoid the sort of situations your faced... four times in a row.

When facing any new activity that may involve risk, it's healty to do some homework to figure out those risks and how to avoid them. This forum is one of the places where you could have done your homework. Instead your faced situtations that, in fact, were avoidables, and after every one of those outcomes you didn't seem to try to make your homework.

Then you claim the people you meet is representative of this community, but I'd say, as in any place there are people wanting to take adventage of you, and may be you exposed yourself as being careless, putting your own head inside the lion's jaw. If this were true, then not only you don't have grounds to claim a rabbit is a disguised lion, but you shouldn't blame the lion for chewing your head!

And notice you were really lucky. Being unable to foresight those situations, you could have face worst ones, really dangerous for yourself. It is because of this, and not the experiences, that I agree with you, and you shouldn't swing, at least until developing some self preservation skills.

After this I decided I'd had enough of the swinger lifestyle. Besides the bad experiences, it was too much work to have to date three people instead of just one.

Yes, swinging involves A LOT of work. Besides the work required to date that many people, it involves a lot of work on oneself and on our relationships as to do it safely enough. But here you face a matter of taste. You know how much work you can put in a projetc that may give you a reward, and only you can say it the reward worths the effort. And this is, ultimatelly, what draws the line between doing it or not.

I also met and befriended a gal who was in the swinger world with her boyfriend for several years. She broke things off with him after she found out he was cheating on her with other swingers behind her back. She now belives that most swingers are in the lifestyle as a last ditch effort to save their marriages or it's their way of cheating and making themselves believe they aren't.

Again, lions disguising themselves as rabbits. Then you say "beware of the rabbits because they have hidden claws and huge theets, look what happens when you pet a rabbit!".

This gal already had problems with her boyfriend, the lifestyle gave him an excuse, she petted lions thinking they were rabbits (and again, having resources to tell appart rabbits from lions). In any case, I'd ask her a question: "Would you preffer this didn't happened, marry this boyfriend, and find out after 10 years of marriage and three kids he's cheating on you?". She's hurt and her beliefs are expressing her own pain.

I like to think of this lifestlyle as an audio amplifier. It enhances everything and make you hear even the most subtle noises. And your marriage is the record you're playing there. Should it have tinny scratches that when unamplified doesn't bother you, once amplified those become loud enough to tear your ears appart.

And you may hear a record unaware of certain noises in the background, but once you heard it amplified enough as to actually recognize those noises shape, latter on it doesn't matter how low you want the volume to be, from then an on you'll keep hearing them and they will bother you.

So, basically the advice we provide is "beware of the noises in your records, if you suppose there are noises there, either take the time to clean the record enough as to avoid them, or avoid plugging this applifier".

It is true that marriages with problems are likely to break appart if they swing, as it's true that marriages without those problems are able to enjoy the music at the fullest. As there are people who want to swing to avoid problems or as the last ressort to save their marriages, but if you look around in the forum, you'll see they get a monolitic advice against doing it from swingers. If these people were having the chance to meet swingers, and I mean, people representative for the lifestyle as the one you'll find here, it's likely that they wouldn't try to swing but look for the proper help, if they were up to follow our advice.

BTW, we don't do this because of being good Samaritans, we do this because of a very selfish motivations: to preserve ourselves from the risks the lifestyle have we need to avoid drama. A forum is the perfect place to deal asceptically with drama and reduce the chances to actually face drama prone people inside the community.

Just FYI, "enjoying sex, bring to reality some sexual fantasies, share the pleasure you and your spouse may get from others" are valid motivations as well. You (or your friend) didn't mentioned them, and I wonder why.

So, say what you like but also realize, when you put down the "vanillas", you're just as judgmental as the vanillas who put you down.

We all, vanilla or chocolate, are allways judgamental. This comes with the human nature, we need to be able to tell appart good from bad, right from wrong, as to foresight what's best for ourselves. The problem comes from the grounds people have to judge orhers and judge situations.

Most of the times, the vanilla judgement not only lacks grounds, but also provide us grounds to judge them. Most of those prejudices (as happens with most prejudices) come from personal fears. When we expose our prejudice, we're talking about our fears.

In the other hand, to be able to succesfully swing we have to face our fears, we have to name it, we have to put everithing in words and develop communicational skills to express our fears, expectations, desires and feelings, and we develop sills to foresight the fears, the missunderstandings, and the outcome they may bring to our lives.

Of course, this isn't something exclusive from swingers, a lot of vanilla people developed the same skills by other means, and as a result, it's less likely that these ones will have prejudices towards swinging. Parhaps 10% of the population developed those skills, and the 10% of them could be swingers, but everyone of the swingers that I know of who survived the swinging experience have those skills.

The teams here aren't vanilla versus swingers, but emotional unskilled people versus emotional skilled ones. And when you have an skill, whatever it is, you can tell the difference it makes when comparing yourself against people who lacks the same skill.

So, yes, I am skillfull, and this was a prerequisite for swinging (and not something I got from swinging), I can tell appart skilled from unskilled people, I understand the difficulties unskilled people face to become skilled, and the fact is, the big majority of the people happens to be unskilled, and happens to be vanilla. But NOT because of being vanilla.

The lifestyle isn't for everyone, in fact, many people live very happy, fulfilling lives without ever swinging. Amazing, isn't it?

I am not amazed, at all. In fact, we wouldn't be able to swing if we were not happy nor having fulfilling lives WITHOUT swinging.

I don't NEED to swing, I WANT to.

I CAN swing preciselly because I don't NEED to swing.

If we were NEEDING to swing, we'd be in a SERIOUS TROUBBLE.

So, it's like the question of why dogs licks their balls... because they can. We swing because we CAN, because we WANT, and because we DON'T NEED to.

But your amazement makes me wonder why did you wanted to swing. If because you felt unhappy or empty, then you was very lucky when having those bad experiences. If you were here by then asking for advice on how to avoid dissapontments, and you were slipping this comment, youd' have faced a sound advice against swinging in the first place.

bt2530 said:

I have a problem with the people who are judgmental towards others who choose to be non-monagamous as well. But you miss my point.

 

Do you feel it would be okay for a white person to call a black person who has been racist towards them the "n" word? I was trying to say that lowering yourself to someone else's level isn't the answer. And if you read many of the posts carefully on just this one string, you will see that underlying judgment.

I do judge others, it's true. But not by any yardstick that I, myself, would be uncomfortable being judged by. If I was treating others in the same way that the people I'm talking about have treated us on message boards, then I would only hope someone would give me a verbal spanking for it! "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy." I don't think I've ever really torn a chunk out of anyone's ass for anything petty or trivial. Not really. Usually I'll save my ass-chewing teeth for someone who truly deserves it, like cheaters or abusers or bullies. People who get what they want at the expense of others, with reckless disregard for the well-being of those around him or her. And if someone wants to get on me for pointing out that one person is hurting another, then bring it on.

I just feel badly for people who have allowed themselves to be locked inside such tiny little boxes and then think they are free. I feel badly for people who refuse to examine their own lives out of fear. I feel badly that so many people are crying out for help and healing in their lives and relationships, yet when we tell them to question why they believe what they do about everything, they scream bloody murder! Devil worshippers! Anti-Christ! Demons! Evil creatures possessed by satan's grip! They scrabble back into corners making the sign of the cross with their index fingers and an aspect of terror in the eye. Now, tell me you do not feel for these poor souls?

bt2530 said:

Look, I'm more of a peace/harmony type person. But before everyone can truly work towards a more utopian universe one of the first things we all need to do (including myself at times), is to stop pointing fingers and calling names. And to really look inside ourselves and wonder why we get so upset over people we feel misunderstand us.

I used to argue for the lifestyle and it boiled down to a matter of pride. But I really try to avoid stupid arguments anymore, because I know it's a huge waste of time. Peace and harmony is the only reason I like to argue any more. I don't get off on name-calling - I truly don't - but if someone who is in denial needs to hear that label applied to themselves before they begin to understand what it is they are doing, then I'll use it. Usually these are people using phrases like "But I'm just...", "But I was only...", etc. I think the only way any of us are going to achieve true peace and harmony is the WWJD rule, and by judging ourselves even more unflinchingly than we judge our neighbours. Start at the source and fix what you can, then you move on to the rest of the world. I'm a work in progress, I know, but I'd feel irresponsible if I didn't share what I've learned so far with anyone willing to listen.

bt2530 said:

"We would worry less about what others think of us if we realized how seldom they do." - Ethel Barrett

I love this.

A utopian universe doesn't and cannot exist. Utopia implies perfection and perfection implies a lack of change. The Universe can't exist without change, without conflict, without chaos. I recently read an article (from a sex-positive writer) regarding the term, "vanilla" and she defined it merely as sexuality accepted by society at large. Last time I checked, vanilla was a divine flavor but it was also the safe flavor that you don't have to worry about taking a risk with.

BT, I don't think that I have ever read anywhere on this sight that the lifestyle is easy or perfect. Hell, the forum wouldn't exist if it were! I am not certain why it is that you felt compelled to come here and inform these people that the road is fraught with danger, most of them are here because of that and to either assist or get assistance for those situations.

How about you calm down and stop looking for a fight. You have some valid points but you are preaching to people who have been there and done that. I have no experience in swinging yet and have been all over the world doing wild and crazy things as well. I don't thing that my other experiences in life have anything to do with my choice of sex life and I seriously doubt that anyone else here would attempt to compare them or attempt to hold sexual experiences in higher esteem than nonsexual experiences.

driveajeepnaked said:

Doing some research lately, I came across a question that really made me think about how society in general views the Lifestyle... In answering this question, I found that I had quite a bit to say, and that the response differed depending on who I imagined the audience to be... I addressed women, then men, then politicians and clergy, then family and friends...

 

If you could say one thing to society about swingers, what would it be and why?

The only large group of people that believe in fearless honesty. They not only are honest with themselves but honest with their partners about things so scary, so unknown, so real, they must never be allowed to run for office or lies as we know them may cease to exist.....

bt2530 said:

Even calling people "vanillas" is a judgment and a stereotype. That insinuates that those of us not interested in engaging in the swinging lifestyle are boring.

Maybe some people use the term in a derogatory way, but actually it is neutral. The term VANILLA is described in the Dictionary on this Board as, "Typically refers to non-swingers (ie. "vanilla friends")." The term is just a way to differentiate between people who swing and those who don't, or non-swinging sex with swinger sex. Some "vanillas" are adamantly opposed to swingers and swinging, some are interested, and some don't care. Many of the vanillas responding on the KSL Board are obviously in the first category.

I have often described my own non-swinging sexual activities as vanilla -- even after I entered SwingWorld several years ago -- and I've seen others using the term in the same way for their non-swinging sexual relations. I'm happy to say I have had and still do have some exceptional sexual experiences with non-swinging women; nothing boring about them or what we have done or do. Still in the context of this Board, those are my "vanilla" experiences (many with all-natural flavors and flecks of real vanilla bean).

Vanilla is not the absence of flavor, it's just one of many flavors.

Mmmmmmmmmmm...tasty!

It's worth to point out that most lifestyles' lifestylers calls people who doesn't share their tastes "vanilla".

We use to hang in a IRC server hired by a "partnership" between some BDSM lifestylers and some swingers. It has just two channels, one for each group, and we've managed to get to know each other (i.e., swingers going to BDSM meetings and vicecersa). The funny thing is, they call us vanilla because we're not into "whipping", and we call them vainilla because they don't "share".

I guess we all are vanilla for someone, and have strong taste for some others.