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TeamSoBe

Submissive straight men?

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Has anybody ever heard of a submissive straight guy? I don't mean a guy who gets his kicks with a dominatrix. As in: a guy who never takes charge with a woman. Goes for aggressive women because those are the ones who will come after him. Lets them decide the when, where, how (who) about sex. Is that possible? Like a woman who gravitates to a man who will just tell her what to do, including in bed? "Whipped" I guess?

 

I'm asking because I think that I might be that guy. Just figuring this out. 30 years old, oral sex but no penetration with two serious long-term girlfriends from 16 up, lost my virginity at 19 to an experienced girl who took charge, next girlfriend was my future wife who jumped my bones after a party. I rarely take charge in these things. My wife and I fuck constantly, don't worry about that. I just don't really take charge like I have seen other guys do with my own wife. I never realized I was different until swinging but I have seen guys just upend her and nail her and push her around and she loves it when it's done right. I have zero clue how to do that without it being rape so I don't attempt it. My wife has said things about women that I have interacted with in swinging that I didn't understand at the time. I'm realizing now that I think she figured me out years ago.

 

I ask because we have met a couple who we really get along with and big surprise the woman is really aggressive with me. We interact with lots of potentials but the couple we're keeping close right now interests us because of her interest in me and I just can't help but notice it's that pattern again.

 

I would very much like to not be so submissive with women. It has been causing some problems in swinging. I want to learn to take charge and move faster because I have been left in the dust a couple of times by guys who just take my wife and fuck her while I'm still afraid to touch their women's thighs. Does anybody think that there is any hope of me taking more control of this one with this woman or am I just inherently submissive?

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Well I'm back after trolling for a while! Hope everybody's been having fun. I just want to say that I feel that way too. I initiate mostly, but don't do that rough take charge kinda of, well I don't know, beast fucking maybe?( I guess that's what it's called) :) Anyway I would like to know how to get out of that because if we are on target for swinging in clubs I get the idea that I too will be left in the dust. My wife is more than ready. I wonder if I will keep up. :confused:

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But how to initiate? If you can initiate but then you're gentle with women then you're still a step ahead of me. I understand women really well emotionally and intellectually and I get along with them really easily once I know them but I don't know how to take charge when I have initially met somebody who I'm physically interested in. I know this is a bizarre situation since I'm so experienced with so many extreme sexual situations. I'm just clumsy with women.

 

For example, I'm flat-out afraid to touch a woman that I don't know very well. Like this woman from the couple that I was talking about, she grabbed me and went after me at a night club a couple of weeks ago. She kissed me, she kept touching my hair (long) she touched my chest and my arms and at one point went under my shirt. I got freaked out and kind of pulled away from her, I do that a lot. Especially after she kept groping my weiner.

 

As much as I am into her and as much as I wanted all of that to happen it just freaked me out because I'm totally unsure of what my role is supposed to be. When she was attacking me I didn't even know what to do with my hands, I tried to hold her around her shoulders but then I felt like I wasn't being aggressive enough, I ended up brushing some boob but that kind of freaked me out. I mean, I don't know this lady, I just feel wrong feeling her up. I'm totally clumsy and I guess I'm afraid of crossing some line somewhere and pissing somebody off. While this was going on I found out later that her guy was crouched down on the floor eating my wife out, who was leaned up against me. That situation would have made me a little uncomfortable but mostly excited with people who we knew already but with virtual strangers (we had had dinner with them once before after meeting through SDC) it was a near-panic situation for me.

 

Some people reading this must think that I'm joking or something but I'm for real, this is really serious for me. The big secret is that part of why my wife and I are in this is so that I can be less afraid of these situations. I have always been like this, thus the low numbers on the totem pole. Is this social anxiety disorder?

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Some people reading this must think that I'm joking or something but I'm for real, this is really serious for me. The big secret is that part of why my wife and I are in this is so that I can be less afraid of these situations. I have always been like this, thus the low numbers on the totem pole. Is this social anxiety disorder?

 

I am taking this seriously so don't get offended. OK?

Look back through your post and read some of the words you wrote.

Attacking me...brushing some boob freaked me out...aggressive enough...near panic situation...less afraid.

 

Some strong words to convey your feelings, wouldn't you say? Men don't frequently write about being "attacked" by a woman, and especially in swinging situations. Maybe they feel that way, and just don't feel comfortable saying so. Not a man - don't know. But from the choice of words, I would agree you probably are experiencing "near panic" and would suggest that you slow down somewhat. You might want to try finding a couple that you can get to know rather than the club situation.

 

How long have ya'll been swinging - since you mention you got into this to get over those feelings or be less afraid? Do you have any idea why this would evoke such strong reactions in you? Have you gotten any better? Are there any situations where you don't panic? I'm nNot necessarily looking for answers but giving you something to think about.

 

Even with behavior desensitization treatment, most psychologists/counselors starts you off slowly on very non-threatening situations and certainly not something that will cause the panic reaction immediately.

 

From your description, it sounds more like what is commonly described as "panic attacks." There are medications that can be of extreme assistance in overcoming some of these reactions and I would suggest you talk to your physician about prescribing something. Also, you may want to seek counseling. It's horrible to live with these types of reactions. I don't think you are going to get any really helpful answers here since these types of reactions can take so many different forms and can stem from different places. Counseling and medication to control the attacks might be the best bet. Good luck. - EBF :)

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I have seen guys who are like this with women they are new to. For instance, my ex could be aggressive with me somewhat but when it came to other women he couldn't, no way no how. He waited for them to initiate everything and this often made women think he just wasn't interested and they walked away. However, with me he was familiar and could initiate things. I know other guys like this as well.

 

But from what you are saying, you can't/ don't even initiate things with your wife, correct? Have you talked to her about this to get her take on it?

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Thank you for your time, I really appreciate that you took the time to think about it. I'm not looking for a magic bullet solution, just trying to figure myself out a little since it has caused a few problems. Can't solve a problem until you identify it.

 

We have been 'swinging' for our whole entire relationship, it isn't anything really to do with that. Almost all of our swinging experiences have been MFM with straight men where there is no chance of a lot of gratification for me, or FFM situations with girls who are not into me but are into my wife where I don't do any penetration, just oral if anything, or encounters with couples that generally go poorly for everybody because I'm so slow. It's interacting with women that I don't know well that makes me uncomfortable, not the swinging. I'm very comfortable seeing my woman with other men or women or groups or whatever but I'm really uncomfortable being involved myself I guess. I have always called myself "shy" but I'm starting to think that "shy" isn't the right description. If I'm not shy then I am starting to wonder if there is something wrong with me.

 

I have had full-on panic attacks before (not in swinging) because of real, true stressful situations so I definitely know what they feel like. This feeling that I get is kind of panicky and unsure of myself but not the same thing at all. A panic attack is an overwhelming physical feeling of impending doom, this is more of a freaked-out stage fright kind of feeling. Like I'm just unsure of how to proceed and I'm pretty sure that I'm fucking it up by not being aggressive enough but I'm never sure what to do. What I can get away with, what I'm expected to try to get away with, when it's okay to go for it, I just never learned these things. I have spent my whole life giving and I never learned to take. Now I am starting to feel inadequate because of that.

 

So here is the big problem: people would obviously advise communication, finding a couple who is willing to go as slow as me, all of that. The problem here is that we now have that couple and we have great communication with them and they are gracious and gentle about pushing it with us, but I'm still not sure how to handle it. I don't want to discuss my inexperience with her or with both of them because just from reading this you can see that I'm a self-defeating whiner type and I'm trying to reverse that, not perpetuate it. I don't want to go around warning people that I'm not confident, I want to learn how to be more confident. But even if I manage to communicate that I need to go more slowly without discussing my inexperience then we still end up with a situation where we finally have a couple willing to wait for me, but then all of the pressure is on me. Three other horny people waiting for me to make a move that I'm not capable of making. I don't know how to start it and now that I realize that I finally have a situation where I'm in control I don't know what the hell to do.

 

This lack of confidence that I have is a complete and total turnoff. I get that and I want to change. Alcohol gets me out of my shell but I have already learned all about the downsides to drinking your way into confidence. I figure I only have a week or two before the four of us are together sharing a bottle of wine with the four of them waiting around for nature to take its course and me to go after this woman. That isn't going to happen, even in my fantasies I don't know what to do. I'm a guy who has had sex with about three women in his life in a room with three other people who have had hundreds of partners each. In order to avoid freaking me out they are all going to be waiting for me to make my move, but, like, how can that make sense? I have no idea how to handle this.

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The only person who can tell you if you have Social Anxiety Disorder is a mental health professional. That being said, let's take a look at the criteria really quick.

 

Persistent fear of unfamiliar people and scrutiny by others usually to the point of anxiety. The distress is severe enough that it interferes with one's daily functioning, work or school, and/or relationships. As well, the person understands that the fear is irrational (meaning you haven't lost your grip on reality). There is a bit more to it but that's sort of the quick run down.

 

As far as how to deal with such things. From a clinical perspective, there are a number of things that can be done to deal with social anxiety. I'm not going to go into that as I'm not sure that any of it will be or any help. After all, I'm not a mental health professional and in no position to offer diagnosis.

 

There is one treatment that I gather is pretty helpful and can help people with even the most minor of fears. In order to make things more fun and exciting its called Systematic Desensitization. Basically, you gradually work your way up to more and more difficult situations. You'd start with working on initiating things more with your wife. I don't know what you are comfortable doing and what you aren't comfortable doing but once you get comfortable with that (fopr example) you move on to something that is mildly difficult for you to do but not impossible. Perhaps you try initiating a touch of another woman. Then work on a kiss. Perhaps you can work on this with the aggressive woman that you mentined. Work up to a kiss then whatever. You can work out what you think is easier and what you think is more difficult. Keep in mind that a woman should be able to tell you if you are doing something that she does not approve of. I also hope that you can clearly see the difference between being aggressive and rape. And that the comment, "I have zero clue how to do that without it being rape" is a bit of an exaggeration.

 

Well, I think I have babbled on enough now. I agree with what EBF said, such things can have a multitude of causes and associated features. The way to get a better idea of what is going on is to seek professional attention. Best of luck to you.

 

{Note about Panic Attacks: Panic attacks are much more severe that anxiety. The symptoms are often not unlike a heart attack. Things like heart palpitations, chest pain, sweating, trembling, nausea, dizziness, feeling like you are going to lose control or die...}

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TeamSobe,

 

I am sorry for the confusion, as I only initiate with my wife, and even then not very well. I completely understand about the club situation, so it would seem that you are way ahead of me( I haven't been to any clubs yet). Now my wife, her sister, and their friends have no qualms about walking up, grabbing, kissing, etc. But we do, and part of it in my opinion is that we were trained to be classic gentlemen(look but don't touch, treat women with respect, etc.) and when we get to a situation as you have described, we don't have any rules for engagement. Ladies, would you help two kind gentlemen who wants to have fun but does not wish to disrespectful?

 

As far as Socialized anxiety disorder, that can definitley play a part. I have had those types of attacks in the past, and the only thing I can tell you to do if it happens is to hang on for the ride cause once it's over then you should not have another episode(in my case about 5 minutes but can seem like eternity). But Miss Piggy is right only a doctor or psychiatrist can diagnose that. And she is also on target about desensitizing yourself to new situations that can cause anxiety. I wish you the best, just keep at it and I am sure that you will be alright.

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Wow guys, thank you SO much! I should have mentioned this here a long time ago but I'm very ashamed about my inexperience, especially around swingers. I almost posted this thread as an unregistered user because I'm so ashamed of this but I thought that some of you might take an interest in how bizarrely inexperienced I am in some things but so comfortable and experienced with others. I give advice that I honestly think is correct to people around here all the time on how to deal with swinging situations because I'm perfectly comfortable with swinging situations. As long as they don't involve me and my dick getting gratification I guess.

 

Texan, I do come from the same background that you do. That's fascinating to hear the same story from you. My mother is a very strong, intelligent, assertive, independent woman. We marched on our state capitol for ERA with NOW and defended womens' health clinics from fundamentalists when I was a little kid. I have found out recently as an adult that she had a first marriage right after high school that I never even knew about. The guy was apparently abusive and the whole thing has been stricken from the family record. I don't even know the guy's name. My dad on the other hand is extremely level-headed and controlled and stoic.

 

Now Miss Piggy, here's the funny part: my dad is a PhD, in behavioral psychology. Does counseling, including for social anxiety disorder. He specializes in behavior modification techniques, ways to control your own behavior. One of his favorite techniques is desensitization to help people to get over phobias. I seriously think that my parents, while meaning well, ended up completely warping me. I really do wish that I could talk to my dad about this but I just can't. There are just too many things going on here that he wouldn't approve of. Maybe that's part of why I'm so confused and conflicted.

 

I guess that the comment about not knowing how to take the lead without it being rape was hyperbole but not really by much. I really do have an overwhelming fear that is present at all times when I'm with a woman, even a woman that I know pretty well, that my presence is unwelcome and that she resents me being there. I either don't see the signals that women give me that they want my dick in them (sorry to be graphic but most of my concern is penetration) or I ... I don't know? My mother is not the type of 'feminazi' Dworkinite who thinks that all sex is rape or anything like that. I don't know how I ended up with that conclusion in my head but somehow it's there and I don't know quite what to do about it. I could never have just gone down on that woman at that night club like her guy did to my wife because.. I mean, why would she want me to do that? Somehow it seems natural to me that she and my wife would be doing that to each other but when she started groping at my dick the "TILT!!" alarms just started going off in my head. Like, 'this is not supposed to be happening, why isn't she doing this to my wife instead'?

 

Texan, if you're anything like me you might not want to answer this question so no big deal if you don't, but did you also end up pretty inexperienced with women? As in, you like them just fine but you haven't been with huge numbers of them? Is that also part of why you and your wife are looking for new experiences?

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Say, TeamSoBe...you know how I am...get interested in something and start searching out the information...

 

Anyway, I found this information on social phobia or social anxiety disorder and thought you might be interested in reading about it. Likely, you already have since you suspect that as being your problem, but it might give you some new information. This is a really good site that I use with much of my work with all articles peer reviewed, etc. Hope it might prove helpful to you.

 

Social Phobia

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Oh wow, cool, thank you! I haven't done much reading into this because it never occurred to me until recently that there was anything wrong with me. This latest woman who fits my pattern of aggressive women who do all of the work for me is what clued me in that maybe I'm screwed up. I grew up with the disorder terms from the DSM floating around my home all the time because of my dad and I have kind of tuned most of it out so I don't know much about it.

 

I also started thinking about it because of Ricky Williams. For the non sports fans, Ricky Williams was until just recently one of the best running backs in the NFL. He quit and just bolted because of social anxiety disorder. I noticed a lot of similarities when I read his story after he quit.

 

I think that our Texan friend also has a good grip on what's going on with both of us when he says that we have been taught our whole lives to be respectful of women and not to impose ourselves on them. Also in swinging, when you get into swinging it's all about boundaries, and normally there is a big fat boundary telling the guys to stay off of the women. At some point in some situations the rules change and we get a green light to mount up and slide in the penis, but some guys like the two of us posting here never learned how to realize when that green light happens or how to conduct ourselves at that point. Our whole natures are built around restraining ourselves from the things that we want to do to the women around us. Especially in swinging.

 

I'm about to go and do some reading. At the very least I feel somewhat better today just from knowing that I'm not the only guy in the world who feels like this.

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hmmm .... this reminds me of myself to a degree...

 

Quote
....it's all about boundaries, and normally there is a big fat boundary telling the guys to stay off of the women. At some point in some situations the rules change and we get a green light to mount up and slide in the penis, but some guys like the two of us posting here never learned how to realize when that green light happens ...

 

It is more. Not trusting my instincts when it comes to signals that women give.

 

Unless you are very blunt, I will remain polite and seem somewhat stand-offish.

 

Good luck TeamSoBe, knowing there is a problem is half the battle to resolving it.

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Mephisto, I definitely feel you. I sometimes see signals that my brain registers but then my self-control won't allow me to respond to. Like, oh, say, a girl shoving her tongue down my throat for 20 minutes straight. I talk myself out of believing a lot of winks and smiles and things like that from women and I think that I prevent things from going further because they think I'm not interested.

 

I'm reading this link that Elusive Bi Fem posted about social anxiety disorder, and wow. Yep, that's me. I learned something new about myself today:

 

Patients fear being humiliated or embarrassed by their actions and may become intensely anxious, with increased heart rate, diaphoresis, and other signs of autonomic arousal. These physical symptoms may cause additional anxiety, often leading to a conditioned fear response that reinforces the anxiety of public situations.

 

That's me right there. One of the things that freaked me out about this encounter that I keep talking about was that it was a relatively hot dance party and seeing this couple (it was a surprise) made me anxious. Started to get a bit damp and I have long hair. She went to pay attention to me and touch my hair at one point and that freaked me out since I knew that I was sweating. It never occurred to me that other people might have had other things running through their heads at the time other than preoccupation over feeling wet and slimy.

 

So this is all very interesting. Now I have to figure out what to do about it. I happen to be armed with a huge array of behavior modification techniques that I'm really good at using on myself. I think that's what got me into this in the first place.

 

Here's a question with a simple answer that I don't know: if any of the swinging ladies here met a couple where you like both of them but the guy was timid like I'm suggesting, would you want to know what's going on or would you want him to just suck it up and try to act as confidently as he's able? I'm not really in danger of freaking out and causing a scene or anything, it's just that I feel like I'm faking it when I act confident and it's hard for me. I'm also worried about appearing uninterested by missing obvious signals. Would "I'm a little shy and I usually move slowly but I'm trying to keep up" be an adequate explanation? I don't want to be dishonest or anything but I would like to discuss the whole thing as little as possible. Especially with a woman that I'm hoping to have sex with.

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If any of the swinging ladies here met a couple where you like both of them but the guy was timid like I'm suggesting, would you want to know what's going on or would you want him to just suck it up and try to act as confidently as he's able?

 

I'd rather know if the guy was feeling less than confident in my intentions. Why have the lady try and be a mind-reader and guess on whether you are really interested or not? I'm thinking back on some situations we've been in and I'm thinking now that perhaps it wasn't that they weren't interested...it was just that they didn't see the signs! I know you don't want to discuss the subject at length with a woman you are possibly going to play with, but a little honesty can go a long way. She could reassure you that she's quite alright with you being more assertive with her.

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She could reassure you that she's quite alright with you being more assertive with her.

 

Or....she might become more comfortable in being assertive.

 

I agree. I wouldn't leave her in the dark about what is going on. - EBF :)

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TeamSoBe said:
Here's a question with a simple answer that I don't know: if any of the swinging ladies here met a couple where you like both of them but the guy was timid like I'm suggesting, would you want to know what's going on or would you want him to just suck it up and try to act as confidently as he's able? I'm not really in danger of freaking out and causing a scene or anything, it's just that I feel like I'm faking it when I act confident and it's hard for me. I'm also worried about appearing uninterested by missing obvious signals. Would "I'm a little shy and I usually move slowly but I'm trying to keep up" be an adequate explanation? I don't want to be dishonest or anything but I would like to discuss the whole thing as little as possible. Especially with a woman that I'm hoping to have sex with.

If a guy told me he has a social anxiety problem and needs to go real slow because of his anxiety, I'd be out a there quick. I'd feel for you, but I would not be interested in playing with you.

 

If you said, "I'm a little shy and I usually move slowly but I'm trying to keep up" that would be okay with me as long as I had already become interested in you. But I wouldn't wait around all night for your hand to touch my knee.

 

*****

 

I've read this thread and may not be remembering everything I read, but here are questions that kept popping up in my mind:

 

Do YOU even enjoy swinging? It doesn't sound like it to me. If you don't enjoy swinging you shouldn't be doing it.

 

It sounds like your wife definitely enjoys it. Is this why you are doing it, to keep her happy?

 

You haven't mentioned how your wife is handling your discomfort--is she aware of the terrible difficulty you are having with swinging?

 

What is it EXACTLY that you hope to get out of swinging? Yes, I know...SEX. But is the sex worth it when you consider all the stress that comes before the sex?

 

*****

 

I have read many swingers ads that state the husband is most interested in watching his wife with others, rather than having sex with other woman. Maybe this approach could be a solution for you and your wife. If you are okay with having sex with your wife while others watch, or if you and your wife like MFM threesomes, maybe this is the way to go for you rather than having sex with other woman.

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I just have one more thing that I want to say about psychological diagnosis. It can be as dangerous as it is helpful. One the one hand it is validating to know why one has the problems one has and perhaps get some insight on how to deal with said problems. On the other hand it can encourage symptoms. The more one reads the more one identifies with one's diagnosis. Sometimes playing up symptoms that are listed simply because they are listed and that sort of thing. I'm not saying that you are doing this. All I want to say is that it's important to be gathering information with the goal of getting away from the diagnosis and minimizing the symptoms as much as possible. Does that make sense? I feel like I might not have explained that very well. Ah well.

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All of this input is extremely welcome, thanks so much everybody.

 

LikeMinds, I appreciate all of that harsh truth, that's what I am looking for. I think that I have a grip on this because you manage to paint a pretty good picture of the guy who is so twisted over this that he's unfuckable. I can see that guy that you're painting and look at him and go "nope, that's not me", so that makes me feel better. I'm pretty sure that I'm just a guy who has a lot of anxiety because I'm not used to doing this so fast.

 

I like girls, is what I'm after in this. I love watching her and I love her because she's such an exhibitionist and all of that, but I don't want to be so shy and virginal my whole life. That's what I'm looking for. I really like the carefree weekend time away from jobs and stuff when you can make out with girls in hot tubs. Thus I'm a swinger. Normal enough I think. My wife wants me to get laid because I haven't much so far. We're like the swinger guy with the wife who hasn't been out much who wants to encourage her to open up, only backwards.

 

My wife's opinion on this is that I'm overthinking myself. I told her that it seemed to me that history was repeating itself. When I first met her she jumped me and I was really excited by the attention but it made me uncomfortable and I spent the night with her but I didn't fuck her. Then the next night I did and everything was perfectly normal and she didn't believe me that she was only my second. She thinks that how I'm reacting to this woman is normal and that it would be best for me to just fuck her. Oh and she thinks that it's very unlikely that I went my whole life with a serious undiagnosed psychological condition when my father specializes in diagnosing psychological conditions in kids. Fair point, conclusion is: I'm just shy. She says that I was taught that good little kids get to know people before fucking them and that they are picky about it, and I'm just the product of that education.

 

I agree and I have an idea of what I want to happen. I am just really shy about the idea of being in charge of this. Going out and going after a woman that I like, coming on to her and assuming a green light, fucking her. Never done that in my life.

 

So this makes me a submissive guy, right? If I had my choice I have to say I would rather just sit back and let the ladies come to me! :cool:

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TeamSoBe

 

I feel so much better since reading your last post! I feel very hopeful for you!

 

I agree with your wife...you're overthinking yourself. It's the reason my previous post didn't mention disorder, diagnosis, or DSMIV :lol:

 

You bring up a very insightful way to look at your situation, "We're like the swinger guy with the wife who hasn't been out much who wants to encourage her to open up, only backwards."

 

You've told me more about your wife's thoughts and I now thinks she's a pretty smart cookie.

 

Regarding your shyness...think of it as just that. And realize you can overcome being shy if you want to.

 

I did. :D

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What a great thread - I suspect we've all seen some of the tendencies you cite in all of us - kinda' the nature of the beast.

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Steve,

 

I think you're right. It is the nature of the beast. I think that we can all agree that we men want to be that take charge kind of person, but not want to be too pushy, while at the same time let a woman have her "day" and be as sexy and naughty as she wants to be. Now for whatever reason there are some men,(read players, or playaz', where I come from) who don't have this problem with being aggressive but also leave a trail of broken hearts in their wake, as they aren't swinging, but using women to get what they want. I know what they have as far as what gets them lucky, it's charm. Anyone can have that. But the real question is how do they get past that instinctive reflex that would tell most gentlemen that this is as far as you go without her permission? Ladies what clues would you leave that would tell us that it is time to take it up a notch? Please, for the sake of this discussion, assume that I am ignorant( for I truly am).

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For you does it have anything to do with the fact that you're still unsure about exactly which of the women could realistically be interested in you?

 

When I walk into a party that is full of beautiful women, I have no way to know which might like me. Some are obviously out of my price range. I'm an attractive enough guy but I live in South Beach. There are literally Playboy and Penthouse models and porn stars walking around the parties that we go to and I'm totally accustomed to just tuning that layer of people right out of my consciousness. Other than them, I have no idea how to sense which women are even in my ballpark so I feel like I don't want to make a lot of eye contact with anybody.

 

I'm okay in a room full of people where it's not overtly sexual, like a business function or something. It's the hyped-up sexuality that throws me for a loop because I feel like there is all kinds of double meaning behind every glance and I don't really understand any of it. I just kind of hang by my wife and try to be friendly but I think I must really look like the little foreign lady clinging to her husband at the airport. So many of the couples in our area and at the parties that we attend are girl-girl-only soft swap couples where the women don't want to have anything to do with guys. I just feel kind of lost in that situation. Don't know if any of this sounds familiar. I'm an attractive guy, I swear. I don't sound like it from this but I am. Women do like me, the few who I let in.

 

It helps a lot if you have a wife who is more outgoing and who understands that you're shy who can help women to interact with you. I guess that's my only advice at the moment, it helps me a lot. I try not to rely on my wife to get me laid which is part of why I still am pretty inexperienced even after a few years of swinging. I don't mind if she helps to encourage introductions though. This time around with the current couple I have taken most of the lead on everything but I don't think that I could have done it without her around to support me. I guess that's what every swinger values about their partner but you just don't expect to see women egging their men on to get up the confidence to call a woman for a date.

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Ladies what clues would you leave that would tell us that it is time to take it up a notch? Please, for the sake of this discussion, assume that I am ignorant( for I truly am).

 

I concur here. When women speak the language of seduction to me it comes in all garbled. I can tell pretty well now when I woman likes me. You can too generally right? 'That joke that I just told wasn't really very funny but wow look at her laugh.' 'Hmm I wonder if it's a sign that she moved over here to unbutton my top shirt button...'

 

What I can't tell is when she's expecting me to do something, and what? Get out the loser stamp and hit me square in the forehead, I do not know how to come on to a woman. Like if I'm going to get up the confidence to reach out and touch her somewhere to show that I'm interested and just to touch her. Where? How? I don't get it. I never learned how to do these yawn-and-grab date maneuvers when I was younger. I might seem like I'm putting more thought into this than I really need to but I'm not because I really have no game plan. If a woman doesn't come to me and press herself against me pretty directly then I don't know how to make that happen. I'm a spectacular kisser for the few who come to me, and I can pretty much take it from there. I just can't get to there unless it's the woman's idea.

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You have a wife, ask her to teach you. You can spend a bunch of money on a counselor or try to be more aggressive and teach yourself, but have your wife teach you. Start off with your wife telling you what to do, step by step and then you do it. Role play, be the phone repair guy or the AC service tech and pre-plan with your wife what your going to do; find a good XXX video and imitate what you see during a love making session with your wife.

 

Maybe you need testosterone injections or pills. It's possible you have a medical condition and you need medical assistance. I think if you have enough testosterone in you that you'll want to fuck everyting you can stick your dick into...:) and you'll go after it.

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My two cents worth. I think women would be surprised how many men have at least some of these traits. I was one of those guys in high school and beyond that was not bad looking, but could never get a date. This was the problem. I was totally unsure of what the boundaries were and afraid I might step over them, so I didn't even try. I was (and still am to some degree) very unsure of myself in situations with women period, forget about when sex was (is) involved.

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I agree with the above post suggesting role playing with your wife.

 

I am not and have never been shy. So, if my advice doesn't work, I'm sorry. But, sometimes you have to lie to yourself until you believe the lie and start acting as though the lie is true.

 

What I mean by that is, tell yourself that you are having a good time. Tell yourself that you are desirable (even if you don't believe it) Pretend that you are an aggressive person. When she laughs at your terrible joke, ask her if she'd like to go play. Initiation sometimes take practice.

 

What is the worst thing that could happen? She could say no. Then you move on. If you are kissing for 20 minutes, slide your fingers into her panties, if she moves your hand away, she telling you no. If she moans, you've done the right thing. When you can feel her wetness, remove her panties. If she grabs your erect penis, ask her for a condom. If she gives you one, she's telling you it's ok to have sex with her. DO IT!

 

The more you live acting like an aggressor and an initiator, the easier it becomes.

 

And you are right about lack of confidence being a total turn off. Until you really feel it. Fake it.

 

Good luck to you!

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Yeow, Lady Cleo. I guess it says a lot about me that I read your scenario and I can barely imagine myself being that forward. I have some visualising to do since this doesn't come natural to me, so your post has been pretty illustrative, thanks.

 

I'm kind of practicing all of this with my wife like some here have suggested. She knows what's going on and doesn't mind so it's kind of sexy to 'practice' for a woman with my best friend who's my wife.

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My cheerleaders in this thread may be amused to learn that I kissed a girl on the cheek today, just to see if I could. German girl I just met this afternoon at Starbuck's. Went over perfectly well and now we're chatting by email.

 

(Yes my wife approves of this)

 

Never would have done that before today and I definitely never have in my life. But I'm thinking "That woman on the swinger web site with the story about the hands down the panties is describing a much more forward guy than I am so I'll take what feels normal to me and crank it up a notch as long as the girl seems to be responding." And let me tell you it's very hot and sweaty on the sidewalk in front of a Starbuck's in Miami in the middle of the afternoon in the middle of the summer. My inner voice was screaming about what a bad idea it was but then Forward Guy kicked inner voice's ass and kissed the girl. Ding ding ding, got nothing but smiles.

 

There you go, your good deed for the week. You taught some guy in Florida to flirt. I'm seeing German Girl tomorrow night at a nightclub full of free booze and it's my party. I'll see what I can manage. Doubt it will involve your pantie maneuver but I'll keep that one in the playbook.

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But I'm thinking "That woman on the swinger web site with the story about the hands down the panties is describing a much more forward guy than I am so I'll take what feels normal to me and crank it up a notch as long as the girl seems to be responding."

I'm glad you did... Good for you. I totally agree with your thoughts... Take whatever you think is not right, crank it up a notch (or two), and you might get close... I was Mr. Shy, I'm still kicking myself over all the possibilities (in some cases certainties) I allowed to slip through my fingers because I believed that women didn't want me :sad:

 

At some stage I realised that it simply isn't true. Women want men at least as much as we want them... AND THEY WANT ME!!!! :D They do however like men who are confident and I realised I had to learn this skill. Took a lot of guts and determination, lots of rejections, but eventually I reaped the benefits, as you will soon be doing.

 

It is important to realise that women have voices, if you are the man you describe I cannot imagine you doing something to a woman after she said no. This is your failsafe. This is what your mother tried to teach you as manners, the way it came about and into your thought process was very warped from the principle she was trying to teach. I am very certain of that, it was true for me.

 

Be sure that you will make mistakes on the road to becoming more aggressive, you will offend some people through misinterpereting their signals. This is fortunately true for all men, not just you, me and the other shy types out there... The difference being that other men are used to these rejections, most believe that a rejection doesn't mean you have no chance, it's just a temporary setback... 10 rejections in a row, that is a different story :lol:

 

Your description really is me about 8 years ago, I'm still married to an aggressive wife (that I love way too much to trade in) and I'm still struggling to initiate sex often enough. I still have to force myself to kiss a woman for the first time (and it's always a rush) and I get flustered when they jump me before I noticed their come-hither signals... But I can promise you, if I see the signals going in the right direction, I'm the first one to jump, I conciously try to be the first one in, to grab opportunity with both hands, sometimes (not often) dragging a bit hard, and getting told to screw off...

 

But then again, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take...

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I'll chime in with a different perspective here. If you like aggressive women and you like pleasing women with them being dominant, maybe you should just put that out there as what you're into. I, for one, am very turned on by submissive men. I've always sought them out sexually (pre-marriage) over more aggressive men because I'm a take charge kinda gal. Not to say I don't like aggressive men as well, but a submissive man is not something I would shy away from and I bet there are other women like me out there.

 

Also, about worrying if you're crossing boundaries - ask. If you're not sure, say "you like that?" or "tell me what you want." Most women would oblige, I should think. If they're turned off by talking, they might say some variation of "shut up and fuck me", which would also get that little connundrum worked out ;)

 

Anyway, my point is that if you are turned on by being submissive, be submissive and put it out there as who you are. If I came onto you and you told me you were shy, I would be giddy, but maybe that's just me. However, if YOU (don't change yourself for anyone else, dear) don't like this part of yourself, I think you're definitely on the right track with taking it up one notch at a time.

 

-Courtney

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Not seeing the signs that a woman is interested in you sexually RIGHT NOW is a sign of "being a perfect gentleman with good moral training and strong respect for a woman's well being." All of which makes you extremely lucky to have met a woman willing to marry you.

 

No offense to you or anyone else, but Mrs. SoBe obviously saw through your insecurities and was able to connect with you. Most women can't (or won't?) do that because they have been taught NOT to be aggressive sexually, or even romantically, with men because if a man isn't willing to make the first move, he's not interested. But young boys are also taught not to be forward with girls because its disrespectful. How does western society continue to exist when the majority of us see sex as a neccessary evil and something to be endured?

 

Off my soapbox on the sex and morality thing.

 

First, get some counseling. I did and I was only 18 when I realized I had this problem. Kind of hard not to see there is a problem with you when three girls, all two or three years older than me, have to say that its okay for me to feel them up. Even the girl I lost my virginity to had to practically lock all the doors leading to her basement bedroom before I could relax enough to have sex with her. What really tripped me out was when certain members of my family said they were proud I finally did it and maybe I wouldn't be so timid. Didn't work and I had to find out why.

 

Anyway, something in the back of your mind tells you its not okay to be sexually aggressive with women you don't know. Part of it is growing up being told that women are afraid of sexually aggressive men. Part is believing that, well, crap about women being weaker than us emotionally. Part is an instinct to protect anyone we know is physically weaker than us. Then there is the "what if someone found out?" factor, the "I don't want things to change between us" factor, the "I don't want to be like everyone else that just wants to get in her pants" factor, and so many more it would take days to name them. But you have to get a handle on what is making you hesitant around women before you can determine how you need to change it.

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EternallySingle said:
... Most women can't (or won't?) do that because they have been taught NOT to be aggressive sexually, or even romantically, with men because if a man isn't willing to make the first move, he's not interested. But young boys are also taught not to be forward with girls because its disrespectful. How does western society continue to exist when the majority of us see sex as a necessary evil and something to be endured? ....

 

ES, I love the knack you have for hitting the nail squarely on the head. :lol: I don't know the answer, but I'm thinking that what you're getting at accounts for the familiar litany, "It's so hard to meet anyone these days...", the proliferation of all these dating sites and the popularity of 'speed dating'. Maybe nobody has the nerve to be forward enough to meet people on their own for fear of offending someone. Is this a result of our PC society? :confused:

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Is this a result of our PC society?

 

For at least one guy, yes. I am the product of the intersection of radical feminism and Catholic guilt.

 

If I had been a woman then I would have been a confident, independent slut. I'm a Scorpio and I'm very passionate. I would have been a guilty slut but I would have been a slut and I would have been proud of myself. My wife is that exactly. I'm not.

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For at least one guy, yes. I am the product of the intersection of radical feminism and Catholic guilt.

 

If I had been a woman then I would have been a confident, independent slut. I'm a Scorpio and I'm very passionate. I would have been a guilty slut but I would have been a slut and I would have been proud of myself. My wife is that exactly. I'm not.

 

Before commenting, I wanted to go through the whole thread just to make sure no one stole my thunder. Plus you allude to it here as well.

 

The long and short of the issue at hand is that you nailed it earlier when you said your parents made you what you are, particularly your immersion in feminism by your mother. Maybe she didn't feed you that "all sex (with heterosexual males; a nontrivial difference from lesbian sex, which is perfectly OK) is rape" nonsense, at least not consciously, but the whole "males are inherently e-vil" mindset permeates the feminist movement, particularly the NOW gang segment. And here you were, immersed in it up to your eyeballs at a young and impressionable age.

 

No damn wonder you have major problems approaching women, or even when a woman approaches you while indicating that she wants you. Hell, even when the woman makes it unambiguously clear that she wants you to fuck her brains out, you tend to get overly anxious and are unable to do your manly thing, as it were. Especially if it's a woman you don't know well, or at all (such as at a swingers party or club).

 

And why is this? Because even though you have some babe kissing and grabbing you, telling you in effect "fuck me, baby; I want you inside me", you have been inculcated with the idea that as a hetero male wanting to have sex with this or that woman, you are a bad person, and this is because your mother and her friends impressed this idea on you in one form or another at an early age, and your father did nothing to correct the situation. And now you are stuck with it.

 

You come across as a decent guy, who would not be inclined to harm anyone without cause, most especially a woman. But when you find yourself in an intimate situation with a woman, this faulty programming kicks in and on some level this "I am a bad person for wanting this" comes out, and no one wants to think they are a bad person, so you shut down as a sort of defense mechanism.

 

By your own admission, your sexual life from day one has been impacted by this, with a long delay before having had your first real sex, and usually just functioning as a flesh-and-blood sex toy (with your lips and tongue as the business end of the toy) for most of the women you've been involved with, your own needs and desires being irrelevant and unattended to.

 

Brother, that ain't normal. And I know this because I went through a similar stage myself when I was young (not quite as bad as yours, but similar). I had more than my share of exposure to the feminist philosophy at a young age, which convinced me that my needs were completely subordinate to those of the woman I happened to be with. It took me a long time to get over that nonsense, and it helped cost me a marriage as well.

 

It's not that your partner's needs are any more or less important than your own, but rather that yours and hers are EQUALLY important. This is what true equality is about, not the horseshit the feminists like to spout.

 

After having read your posts here, I would strongly suggest that, to start with, you find yourself a good psychotherapist (and for God's sake, NOT your father, nor anyone he might recommend) and go to work on these issues. I don't know what the DSM IV (or whatever level it's up to now...:)) code would be for your problem, but it amounts to an anxiety issue you have due to adverse things you were taught and experienced at a young age. It will likely take a few years of work to rewrite that bad programming you were given, but it is doable if you put forth the effort.

 

Dude, there is not a goddam thing wrong with wanting a woman, and that includes giving her a righteous fucking, good, hard and deep, just the way she wants it. Note that last; just the way she wants it. The trick is just in how you go about giving her what she wants, while making sure she does her part for YOUR needs as well. Quid pro quo.

 

And if you are concerned that maybe she's not interested in you, and might be upset if you touched her, there's a real simple solution to that as well. Walk up to her and strike up a conversation. And there are two things to watch, and once you learn the trick, you will know inside of thirty seconds if she's interested in you "that way" or not.

 

First, look at her eyes. The eyes are the window to the soul, and when you learn to read them, they will tell you volumes about that person (plus, if a woman is attracted to you, her pupils will dilate; watch for that, too, along with hardening nipples if possible to discern).

 

The other is body language. The way a woman sits or stands in your presence while talking with you, especially in a swinging environment, where everyong is there for basically the same thing, will tell you real quick if she's interested.

 

Learn these tricks, if you don't already know them, and there will never be any question as to whether or not it's "appropriate" to touch her.

 

Good luck, and I hope things work out for you...

 

-- Bear

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I know how much everybody here likes to see updates. I'm happy to report that I nailed her this weekend. Well she nailed me. Whatever.

 

Bear, your post hit me square between the eyes. I spent a lot of time thinking about it. I didn't want to spend a bunch of time talking about it online because I wanted to make a change, so I have left this thread for a few weeks. I totally changed a lot of things about how I handled this woman and I might be able to be more confident with the next one to come along I think.

 

I have avoided using email to talk to this woman becuase that's one of my shy way of hiding. We have kept in touch and gone out once or twice and had a lot of fun, the four of us. One night we went out to a sex club and got freaky deaky on the dance floor with two other couples and she ended up jumping me and lap dancing me crazy. Lots of sex between three other couples and us that night but my wife and I didn't swap with anybody. This weekend we were evacuated from Miami Beach because of hurricane Frances and so I engineered it so that my wife and I were holed up with our hurricane supplies with them in their beautiful high-rise condo in Miami.

 

I can leave out the details, you can pretty much guess them. In the end she got me by being pretty aggressive and jumping on me but at least I managed to send clear enough signals and make the whole thing happen. Then since she and I are compatible with her being aggressive and me being submissive and all, she ended up begging for my snausage and somehow oh hey there's a condom and bump bump yay I have had four women now and holy hurricane Batman this Latina is seriously hot.

 

This couple seems to agree with my wife that my shy thing is humble and cute and properly matched with some chivalry. I'm apparently in line to meet some aggressive Brasilianas soon who appreciate shy and gentle American guys who work out.

 

So I guess I'm a lot more comfortable now. If people can get me and like me enough to do the things that she did to me this weekend then I'm happy being submissive. Thanks for the support folks.

 

* Footnote: Oh and my wife got laid. Yay. That used to be the only thing going on during our sex adventure weekends. Now it's a footnote because my wife was kind enough to pull back and let me have some fun. She and the woman didn't even really get together yet. Left room for a sequel. !!!

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Is this social anxiety disorder?

 

If there was ever, in this world a reason for having that disease, (SAD) in the medical jounals, it would have to be your case: The SAD swinger.

 

I mean you're just like "Monk" the complusive-obbessivie dick. If you had it before you even considered swinging you must really be into masochism. You may even have it in it's purest form; and yes i do agree your wife has your number.

 

Not that it's a bad thing: mental masochism. You probably like it that your wife gets to watch you fumble and fear doing something you're not supposed to do. When in reality from what i've read and experienced as a woman: if it feels good: we like it!

 

Besides, if you're still not sure, you could just ask. That is a really big turn-on! Whispering in my ear, does this feel good, do you like this: will get my juices flowing harder than Niagra falls.

 

If you feel uncertain about what yeees means try something else and ask, how about this? If she liked the first move better, she'll take you back to it. I have a theory that it's all in the talk. For me, talking dirty to me, is like turning on a faucet: if you get my flow. Ask her about every move and let her think she's in control when you know in fact: you're in control!

 

I don't believe that all women want to be controlled; and haven't you ever heard that in theory the submissive one is in control? If you put your hand on a woman's thigh and she doesn't get up and walk away: you're in control! If you move it a little higher and she doesn't move it back lower: you're in control.

 

If kissing isn't against your rules and you kiss her: you're in control! If she kisses you back: you're in control. If kissing on the lips is a no-no, there's a multiitude of other places on a woman's body that really need to be kissed: the neck, the breast, the bare shoulder; and yeees, even the fingers. I love it when a man kisses somewhere different; and often i'm surprised that it turned me on so much. Try new places and if she enjoyes it, guess what: you're in control!

 

Even if you don't kiss there must be something you do when you feel the time is right to get her in a horizontal mood. If you get her there: you're in control. Even if she has to drag you there by your hair, if you're going where you wish: you're still in control!

 

I am no therapist, but, if swinging doesn't shock you out of SAD; i would hold out little hope that even a perscription happy licenced professional could help you...

 

Inevitably, it's who you are; and anyway, if you change, perhaps, you wouldn't be as attractive to your wife!

 

just my $0.02 for free

 

littlebit54

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