jdtpcouple

You're right about that. STD's were the biggest concern we had when first considering entering the lifestyle. I/we read thread after thread concerning this topic before attending our first party. I must admit even now it is very reassuring to see that blue bar on this poll.

I see there are a few other stay at home moms out there I answered other for myself, but he'd be under construction worker, more specifically commercial floor installation.

I agree. I think it comes from the need to justify the "truth" of her religion. To validate her sacrifices by condemning those who indulge. In order to condemn, you must incriminate, in order to incriminate, you must discover...it's a process that is rationalized by telling herself she is only looking out for me in an "eternal" sense. I have to admit that the thought crossed my mind, " I wonder if she'd go so far as to try and take my kids away?" I want to say no way, she'd never, that she'd be too afraid of losing, then never seeing them again. I want to say that, but given her irrationality and judgments so far...plus it wouldn't be hard for her to find a lawyer in the church who would represent her for free, while I would have to pay to keep my own children. I can't even imagine it, the very idea seems so unreasonable that it's like a horror film. Still...the thought had crossed my mind, "Where would I go for representation?" It would be all over the news, but I don't really know of swinger organizations that help with that sort of thing like there are in the poly world ie Loving More. I gotta say I agree here. My husband & I were just talking about alternative babysitters & he mentioned his mom. The question we discussed was what if she asks why my mom isn't sitting for us anymore. Do we have a cover story as to why she isn't around? We came up with several untruths, all of which would lead his mom to call my mom in an attempt to help reconcile us. I think its better just to not ask his mom to sit for us, thereby avoiding the initial question as to why my mom isn't and not have to tell a cover story at all. Anything we say will lead to her nosing around too. If we're caught lying then we have to face the accusations of, "If there's nothing wrong with it then why were you lying about it?" Duh! The update so far: All's quiet on the repressive front. She hasn't contacted me, I won't contact her. As far as I'm concerned I don't need to work to make things right, because I didn't do anything wrong. Besides any attempt to contact her will only antagonize her. Nothing from my dad, or anyone else on that side of the family. I'm sure he knows and is either equally angry, or remaining silent as to present a united parental front. As for not telling extended family. It looks like they haven't/won't but I fear as soon as I get comfortable thinking that way, someone will turn up...maybe I'm just paranoid, I don't think anyone will blame me? Still so far, so good.

Amen to that! Not so much. As a kid I could have forgone the struggles I had if I had "admitted" I was wrong and conformed to their values. I didn't then, I won't now. When it was all said and done it was her who came to me, she who had to accept me for who I am and present the request to rebuild the relationship. Thus far she's been able to reconcile what she believes with the things we didn't hide from her: The fact that we watch pornography, visit strip clubs, purchase sex toys etc. Up until now she hasn't tried to "change" me again, remembering I already proved I don't need her to survive. This may seem weird, and I know a lot of you will disagree here but the short answer is: yes. Let me explain. In their lives they will encounter people like her, who think they know whats right and will try to impose their standards on them. They need to know that people will think they have a right to decide things for them. They need to know those people are full of shit and they should make their own decisions and accept responsibility for the consequences of their actions, good or bad. They need to see that its ok to stand up to for who they are. I learned early in life that my value as a person does not lie in whether or not someone else chooses to love me or be a part of my life. People will come, they will go, I am still great no matter what they choose to do. I want my children to learn this concept too and they will emulate what I do much more than what I say. That being said, that does NOT by any way mean I'll allow her to become abusive to me further. Yes she had access to my PC, yes she abused that access. Maybe I take it too lightly but I sort of see it as opening the bathroom cabinet when you visit someone's home, or reading tabloid magazines. People have a fascination with finding out about others. Ultimately, she only harmed herself because she was the one who ended up crying and my husband and I have only become more convinced that we are making the absolute right choice for our marriage and happiness. Still a valid point worth making though for the other horses who haven't "jumped the gun." Our PC is set up so that we have an adult windows profile and a kids one. (Window XP "switch users" function) So they have Spiderman as their background image and their web browser opens up to Sesame Workshop instead of our Gmail homepage. Recently though we purchased a laptop computer and in light of recent events we began discussing the option of only using the laptop for adult sites and "giving" the PC to the kids. We can password protect the laptop so even if they snoop in our room when they get old enough, they won't be able to access anything "good"

Please remember that (to generalize) religion responds to sex by using fear and shame. Don't buy into that bullshit! The man was their neighbor and had child pornography on his computer. He was a sick freak and his defense attorneys tried to get him off by blaming swinging. Lets pretend he wasn't. Lets pretend as she (mom) implied, that the mother met him at a swing party, rejected him, and he followed her home, stole her daughter, raped, and killed her. My husband is good at the analogies so I'll let him speak here: "Saying someone raped and killed a child because they are a swinger is like saying someone molests children because they are gay". My husband had another jewel for me too when she asked if I thought the parents questioned their lifestyle choice after losing their daughter. "This past Sun a man walked into a church and opened fire on the congregation. Does she think the church members question their lifestyle now that their friends/family are gone? If they hadn't gone to church, that wouldn't have happened to them right?" So were these examples results of a lifestyle choice, or random encounters with truly insane individuals willing to take another human life?

Well I haven't heard anything from anyone so far. I'm sure she'll tell my step-dad at the very least. Maybe her closest church friends or bishop. My dad may extend the info to grandma & aunt...So far its just my speculation. Thanks. I guess I have developed a well of patience for her emotional responses after growing up with it. I have the ability to hear the bait without taking it. I filter through the emotion and only provide informative logical responses. (Plus my dad's a salesman so I guess I learned some side stepping talk too) No kidding, I remember laughing at her when she told me I wanted to get pregnant to "make him stay." It's ridiculous, if I wanted to get pregnant, why was I on the pill? As for current events, the same applies. The fact that I explore my sexuality with the knowledge and consent of my husband instead of taking the vanilla road & cheating is appalling to her. She wouldn't approve of cheating either...but she'd accept it over swinging any day. I just don't get that. Sort of. I can name some vanilla friends who'd be frightened by the idea of swinging and lay in to me about it. That's the reason we'd like to keep them vanilla friends. Leaving religion & sex out of the conversation they are good people and fun friends to have....they wouldn't in a million years hold their tongue and say "to each his own" on this topic. Some of them, given the time and information, would be able to get past their fear, others wouldn't. I hear you on that. I used the principle of "free agency" with my mother. For non LDS its the teaching that God wants us to "choose the right" but ultimately it is up to us to make our own choices and accept responsibility for them. Thank you for all your quotes & research. I learned a lot just from your post. I can't wait to dig deeper into the information.

Thank you to everyone who replied, and for all your support. I greatly appreciate getting so many responses to my situation. No kidding. I have learned over the years that my mom will initially respond with emotion. She feels that emotion, deals with it (eventually), then and only then can logic or reason be introduced. The people she'll talk to though...my step-dad, grandma, aunts...they'll be more likely to hear me when I speak in the language of "common sense." Thanks, I intend to repeat the part about teaching my kids about sex verbatim. Probably to someone who will be open to hearing me though. This is the attitude I took at 17 also. I am, who I am, if you choose to be a part of my life...great! If not, I respect your decision to believe what you will and will gladly welcome you back should you find a way to reconcile your religious conflict. LOL. I just named 3 sets of vanilla friends that fit the 3 descriptions above. That's the reason we don't openly present our lifestyle to them. We know they won't get it & don't expect them to, but if they're asking... I think this is true in theory, but in practice I would alienate friends who may not agree, but who won't necessarily walk away from the friendship either. Golden, this is exactly what I was looking for. In the short time that we've been active in the lifestyle we've met two couples that I could realistically see having lasting friendships with. I would not have thought to make that point though, so I thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Yesterday I got off the phone with my sobbing mother. She didn't say how she figured it out, but I'm guessing her access to my PC did the trick. One too many clicks on my internet browser back button, and the web history speaks for itself. She tried to be clever & started the conversation by talking about the little girl who was kidnapped and murdered because "her parents were swingers." Then asked, "If you had the chance to choose that lifestyle, would you be willing to put your kids very lives at risk for your own selfish sexual gratification?" It wasn't hard for me to see that she had A - figured me/us out, and B - made up her mind about what "those people' are like She tried to say she was only concerned about the effect it would have on the children...then slipped up with a mention of how I was raised with "the teachings." Yes, she's religious. My bi-sexuality equals the eternal burning of my soul to her. As far as her woe, "Won't someone think of the children"... Our adult time is separate from our family time. Our home is just that...a home. Right now the kids are preschoolers. They are focused on learning how to spell their own name and count to 100. At the appropriate age, we'll begin talking with our kids about sex. We'll provide them with honest, accurate information about the different ways to express sexuality. We'll warn them about the dangers of STD's and educate them about how to protect themselves and their partner(s). All of this will be done without the use of fear, shame, or judgment. While I don't expect others to agree with my chosen lifestyle...all I can be is me. As we began exploring the lifestyle we decided we wouldn't announce it to our friends/family because we know that the word swinger carries a negative connotation to most people. It would upset them and as a result put a strain on our relationship with them. At the same time we agreed that, were they to ask/find out, we wouldn't lie either. There are no negative consequences professionally, so we have the ability to be open about it. That being said, my husband is a very private person. He feels very strongly that our sex life is not anyone else's business. Unless we choose to share it with them, We shouldn't have to discuss it, defend ourselves, or justify our choices. Me? I'm more "Love it or leave it." I won't push my liberal views on sexuality on others, but if you are asking, don't think I'll sugar coat myself to try and fit in the socially and morally acceptable, hetero-monogamous box that you/God deem "good." When I was 17 my mom searched my room and found my birth control pills. She packed everything I owned & threw me out, never to speak to me again (for about a year). She was convinced I'd be in the streets, doing drugs & paying for them with prostitution. A senior in high school and not able to legally obtain my own place to live, I stayed with a school friend for a couple of months until graduation. Then I was on my own. I was cut off emotionally, socially, and financially from the sheltered Mormon community I was raised in. I attended junior college full time, worked two part time jobs (child labor laws preventing me from getting one full time), and lived in a seedy pay by the week motel where they didn't care that I was a minor as long as I paid the $125/week on time. In my own defiant way, I remained a "good" kid with "bad" morals. The days of being ashamed of my sexual desires are long over for me. I would like to represent the lifestyle in a positive way and being prepared for the verbal assaults that are inevitably in my future will help me do this. I think its important for me to point out that we've only visited 3 on premise clubs since June of this year. I've heard people who've been in the lifestyle for over a year describe themselves as newbies, so what does that make us? Our experiences have all been so positive, but we are still finding our way. What I want to know from the board is this: What judgments can I expect to be thrown at me/us? Has anyone else had this happen to them? What will people ask me about? How did/would you respond? I'm not really looking for discussions about the kids, or whether or not I should have lied/covered it up. I didn't, it's out there, now how do I/we deal with it? Here's what I'm expecting so far: *accusations of defiling the sanctity of holy matrimony *homosexuality is a sin *sex with anyone besides your spouse IS cheating *you're going to get AIDS & die, then you'll really be sorry Please, add to my list and provide your answers/response.

I know the request was for experienced ladies to respond, but seeing as not too many actually have...you may find my inexperience helpful as well (at least I hope so). We have had two experiences so far. The first was a six-some with two other couples & consisted of ONLY girl-girl play & sex with the same partners. Our second trip we spent the car ride discussing soft swap boundaries. We decided we'd stick to girl-girl play, but found some common ground on the swapping issues that were "optional." Now that you have my entire sexual swinger history , let me attempt to answer the question: #1 The Husband I pulled the two quotes that made my soul yell "yes, yes, yes" when I read them. I had no idea how much my comfort level would change with another man touching me, until my husband whispered in my ear, "Can he touch your breasts?" While socializing he put my husband at ease, my husband liked him. His comfort = my comfort. #2 Talking/Flirting I thought I was just a prude! That my overbearing religious conservative upbringing had ruined my ability to enjoy casual sex with men. What a relief! The other guy asked me to dance on the stripper pole at the club. I am usually very shy & would never do this on my own, but at his request and in the company of his girlfriend, I danced naked on the stripper pole. It feels good to know that someone else finds you attractive. This could be its own thread entitled "Flirting for Dummies" Thanks for the detail & examples here, I will use them when I am approaching other women myself. If she is digging you is the key to this part, but that said, I totally agree. The non-sexual touches can send tingling to the sexual places, creating a desire for those places to be touched too. #3 Laughter reduces stress And if you are making my husband laugh, this helps too. The sound is infectious. The trick is letting your sense of humor show & seeing if I/we find it funny too. I even found a couple of examples here in this thread that made me laugh out loud: Hahahahaha, being confident while still having the ability to poke fun at yourself is funny to me. Silly and off the wall, I especially like when it crosses the line of political correctness. But sense of humor is an individual trait so let yours show & watch for her reaction. I tend to laugh at things most other women would be offended by. Well I hope that my simple reiteration of what was already said helped gentlemen. As I get more swinger experience under my belt (so to speak) I'll share then too.

Agreed completely. "Nice" respones are for someone who shows me the respect of asking first. Rejection in and of itself is not "nice" so I often get flustered at what to say. If is helpful to hear the phrases others have used to convey "thank you, but no" so I don't have to think on the spot - I'm so bad at that Hooray for him, and hats off to you! Would've have been a perfect scenerio if you hadn't been so rudely interuppted. This is good to know. I think it is as important for the other men in the scene to disapprove of this kind of behavior. I do however see the point that a relative stranger would not be obligated to look out for you to the same extent as your spouse or b/f. I'm just glad there wasn't a "What's her problem?" attitude from the other guy or others at the party. No its not just in your opinion...He didn't learn to ask after the first girl, kept at it after #2, third time it still didn't click that he needed to ASK, fourth time seals the deal. He's not a swinger, he IS a predator. (If I was his wife I'd want to get away from him too) Also, as one of the "married lesbians" out there can I just say Shame on her for leaving him unattended to prey on others. To be fair its possible she doesn't know how he acts when she's not around...possible but I doubt it, he is her husband after all.

Ha! Are you kidding me? EVERY year when we watch the AVN awards I ask my husband if they have their own show or they do that thing like the Oscars where they tape the "stuff no one wants to see" the day before & only broadcast whats marketable. I'm so excited they have their own awards ...although it does seem a little like AVN is excluding them Porn stars are always complaining that there aren't enough "hot" men to work with, the truth is that they are out there, getting paid twice as much to fuck each other rather than the starlets. Now I'll have to hunt down that awards show. Hooray for the guys who aren't afraid to give it to each other too :)

Ok my initial response is "lucky girl" as I find bi-guys a turn on. I get what you are saying about his reservations in confiding in you being swinger related because even in an open minded community like swinging there can still be a homophobic atmosphere in the "boys club". I think you got a good start with giving him a positive reaction before he brings it up. I would have advised you to be patient with him, but then I read the post about HIV. The "cheating" is a relationship issue, not a swinging thing and his extra curricular activities put your sexual health & those you swing with at risk. I dislike the use of the word "confront" because it makes it feel as if you are going to attack him with your proof of his bisexuality, resulting in him being defensive if not fully denying it. Try to bring it up in a loving way, showing support & present what you know as an attempt at growing closer. The "cheating" and condom use part of the conversation will follow naturally. He will be more likely to be honest about how many partners he's had on the side & if he used protection if you are not screaming "I know you are cheating with this guy & I can prove it too!"

Love the math...I wonder if she's being selfish, or he's "cheating" on his own. Maybe he cleverly waits for her to be otherwise occupied & sneaks off instead of communicating his desires to be with women too. If my husband disappeared while I was with a woman to go get action without me I'd be hurt & upset. But same room play is our personal boundary I guess. Oh I so agree with that! Exhibitionism is being turned on by others watching - not acting. One may really like to "wag their tail" without liking the idea of a complete stranger helping themselves. Once again we see eye to eye. I tend to focus on my pleasure & the person I am pleasing & tune everything else out. In our 6some I can tell you what I did with my husband or either of the two women, but when he told me after that both the other men came twice I was so surprised. I hadn't paid attention. Thanks for the polite lines. I can't explain how much I appreciate this because I want to be "nice" when saying no & tend to freeze up & not know what to say. Although I haven't had any similar experiences yet, you have relieved some of my anxiety about them cuz I feel more prepared to deal with it if I already know what I'm going to say (before I punch the jerk in the face...lol j/k) Ok we are brand new to swinging and after carefully reading all the response I have one question: Is there any expectation/obligation on the male she was orally pleasing to wave the guy away before he started touching? I noticed the b/f took action to get rid of the guy, but why didn't the guy she was with let her know during the man's approach? I realize it may have all happened too fast in this particular instance, but I noticed a lack of conversation about the responsibility (if any) of the guy she was servicing. I'd love to hear all your thoughts on this.

Ok I am totally with you on this topic, except for the distinction that I am a bi-female. To me two people who are totally into each other in the heat of the moment is HOT. Two girls...HOT, boy-girl...HOT, two guys...HOT!

Thats terrible! I may feel comfortable telling everyone & anyone about myself...but to out other people feels like a betrayal of the worst kind. I mean they wouldn't cross another couples boundaries during playtime, so why would you think its ok to do so outside of the bedroom? I can see why you go to all the trouble of going out of town although I agree it sucks that you have to.