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foozballnow

Outed by vanilla friends - my wife received this email

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Hi everyone, We do our best to keep your fun life and our vanilla life separate. However a few friends found out recently and my wife received this email from the female half of the other couple. We don't even know where to go from here...let's see what you think. Sorry for the length, she rambles and tries to sound smart with big words.

 

Here is one part...

 

There are many things that I have seen that I do not necessarily agree with and I am not one to judge as I have done my fair share of crazy things. First, but I think above all else, I keep morality a priority. As you know, everyone has their threshold of what they could or couldn't tolerate in a relationship, so I am no one to butt into your life -- I just don't think I could agree with the kinds of things that I have heard (or activities) that you are now a part of. Truth is, I really did look up to you. Not only as a person, but as a friend. What I should say is that I feel some what ashamed. I don't approve of your lifestyle lately (again I am not your parent for you to be concerned at all on anything that I say, as I am just expressing the way I feel) and by that I mean, the constant drinking, the photos published on ****** of you bending over in front of other men/women, etc. I feel as if I were to not check your ****** in several months, I wouldn't miss a thing -- I would see the same pictures just different backgrounds. Again, please don't take this offensively, just try to understand what I am saying.

 

then she goes on...

 

I am not sure if the way I perceive things have changed since my priorities in life have shifted since I first met you. I just feel like somewhere along the lines, you lost sense of who you really are. You have always had a more open mind than me -- and I guess that's where we differ, however, I think there is a fine line between morality and dignity.

 

Whatever you and *husband* do in private is none of my business and by all means completely out of my league, and I trust that hopefully, *husband* will always have your best interest at heart.

 

I have always been very old fashioned in my way of thinking and please forgive me if you find any of what I am saying to be insulting, but marriage to me is sacred. I think marriage is between two people and two people only. As I could agree with you, I think everyone should have fun and try things at least once, however, I am scared to think that you could possibly be taking this swinging thing to a whole new level. Again, I am limited as to my conclusions because I am not involved in your life, so please correct me if you deem it necessary.

 

.........................

 

My wife wrote back saying I thought best friends were friends no matter what. I mean now I feel like we are being judged. As in this community we know can happen from time to time. But why would someone write something like this? To end a friendship? To get you to stop? I'm confused and actually angered. I need my swinging community to back me up here. Is this a little out of line?

 

To complicate matters, I am the godfather of their child. And no, they never married. LoL. imagine that. To someone who marriage is sacred?

 

Advice on where to go from here with this?

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I don't know where to go, but she is judging you regardless of her statement otherwise. Just this quote alone highlights that: "some where along the lines, you lost sense of who you really are". That quote taken by itself could be non-judgmental. But, when put in the context of all the comments about morality and swinging, yeah she's judging you alright.

 

Generic advice; A person when faced with something they can not change has two choices. They can either (a) adapt or (b) remove it from their lives. This person might be trying to do the latter, but in a somewhat polite way.

 

For your own part, you have a choice too. This person does not approve of you swinging, and it's obvious it'll be a catching point between you. You can't expect her to be more accepting of you two as swingers. You can decide to either remain friends or choose not to. If you do decide to remain friends, I'd make it clear that your swinging activities are not up for discussion. You don't ask her to participate, and there's no reason for her to be concerned or otherwise even aware of your activities.

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To complicate matters, I am the godfather of their child. And no, they never married. LoL. imagine that. To someone who marriage is sacred?

 

A few things...

 

First off, tell her that until she's married, she has no idea what a marriage is - so shut up.

 

Second, her opinion is just that - her opinion - so shut up.

 

Third, she isn't your mother, lover, or wife, so whatever she has to say is irrelevant - so shut up.

 

Fourth - how the heck did they find out you were swingers in the first place? It's time for you to shut up.

 

Let this woman know that you got her unsolicited opinion, and that you're taking it with the appropriate grains of salt. Then tell her that the next time you want her opinion, you'll ask for it. Until that time, she should keep her nose out of your business. You, on the other hand, should keep your business to yourself. What you and your wife do is nobody's business but your own. In other words - shut up.

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"please correct me if you deem it necessary"

Oh, it's necessary alright.

"I am not one to judge"

"I am no one to butt into your life"

"I don't approve of your lifestyle"

But it was necessary for you to send me this email criticizing my morals and defending yours. That IS judgmental.

 

"Whatever you and *husband* do in private is none of my busines"

Yet you feel the need to critisize me.

"I really did look up to you" "I feel some what ashamed"

So what I do when you are not around and has no effect on your life causes you to lose respect for me? I do not require my friends to live their lives by my rules and standards. I do not force my version of morality and dignity on anyone. The fact that I have not done this to you shows my respect for you and your life choices. I'm sorry that you feel that I'm not living up to your standards. If you can't find it in your heart to respect me for the things I do and have done in our friendship, maybe it is you that has changed.

 

--

 

At least that's the way I would have responded. I don't have much time for people who feel the need to tell me how much better they are then me.

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It sounds like your friend had an 'image' in her mind of your wife being someone to look up to and as someone to strive to be like.

 

The fact that she has a child while unmarried yet acts this way sort of makes sense in light of this.

 

Your wife was the what she wanted to be, instead of who she was.

 

Now your wife does something she doesn't understand and completely shatters that image your friend had of your wife. She is trying to 'save' your wife in such a way that can reestablish your friends mental image of your wife.

 

It is sort of like hero worship when you figure out your hero is 100% human. My guess is she now angry with herself for that hero worship and being what most weak minded people do when they are angry with themselves, she will take it out on and blame your wife for ruining her perfect illusion.

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foozballnow said:

My wife wrote back saying I thought best friends were friends no matter what. I mean now I feel like we are being judged. As in this community we know can happen from time to time. But why would someone write something like this? To end a friendship? To get you to stop? Im confused and actually anger. I need my swinging community to back me up here. Is this a little out of line?

 

I think the belief that you should be "friends no matter what" is unrealistic in life and I'm always perplexed by how many people think this. There are always reasons for a friendship to end. Not all friendships are meant to last forever.

 

Yes, she is judging you, and it is okay for her to do so; saying she is "not one to judge" is silly, but people are so hung up on being nonjudgmental that they often feel compelled to add that overused statement to their criticism. Right now, you are probably judging her...what kind of person she is, whether you want to remain friends, etc. We make judgments in life based on the knowledge we gain, and from there we make decisions based on our judgments.

 

From reading your other posts, I know that you and your wife are both about 24 years old. You have many years ahead of you and new friends will be made. Even though you are the godfather of this woman's child, I encourage you not to let it get in the way of how you handle your friendship with her. Don't feel obligated to maintain a friendship that may no longer be healthy.

 

I think this woman is both surprised by what she discovered about you and maybe even a bit envious.

 

The last thing I recommend is telling her to "shut up." That would only make matters worse for you. Make her angry and she is likely to say horrible things about you to others in your community. From reading your prior posts you sound like a mature, level-headed couple. Use that to your advantage and be diplomatic in your communication with her. Your anger is understandable, but you don't need to let her see it.

 

Since I don't know the depth of your friendship I can't tell you what you should say to her. What I would say to my friend would depend on whether I felt it was time to break off the friendship. If so, I'd keep my e-mail succinct, I'd not go into my personal beliefs about swinging, or my relationship with my spouse, or how we play, or moral issues. I'd stay away from hot topics and would close the discussion down as quickly as possible.

 

Please keep us posted on your thoughts and how things go.

 

Good luck.

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People tend to have very fixed ideas about what a relationship is even though they likely never stopped to examine why they subscribe to certain ideas/beliefs or why they do what they do. I know it feels terrible to be judged but try not to take it personally. I think people react the way they do out of fear so try not to hold all the things they said against them. If they care to try and understand where you are coming from there is plenty of reading material you can recommend. If they don't wish to understand they can at least respect your privacy by not telling others about you.

 

Deviation from the relationship norm is an understandably scary idea to many people so try to keep this in mind and be compassionate toward them in future communications. It sounds like you do need to have further contact. You should decide what needs to be addressed with them and make a game plan about how you can go about it without becoming angry and defensive.

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"Advice on where to go from here with this?"

 

I would send a short reply saying:

"We will both miss both of you".

And that would conclude the message.

Signing it is optional.

:cool:

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"Advice on where to go from here with this?"

 

I would send a short reply saying:

"We will both miss both of you".

And that would conclude the message.

Signing it is optional.

:cool:

I like this.

 

If my husband and I decided to close the relationship with this couple, this is what we'd write.

 

Nice, simple, succinct.

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You could always say how you are no different now then the day before she found out. That the only thing that has changed is her perception of you.

 

Oh and you could add how saying "I'm not judging but what you are doing is wrong" is just as dumb as saying "I'm not racist but I don't like minorities."

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How public are these photos? That might be a concern of yours going forward.

 

I strongly suspect that your friendship is over, or at least will never anywhere near as close.

 

When reading her email, my thought was "I'm sorry I'm not what you thought I was", but I doubt that's an appropriate line to include. Probably comes off as too snarky (although if a friend of mine said these things to me, I would mean that sentiment genuinely... I would be truly sorry that they misperceived who I was so severely, regardless of whose fault that was)

 

~mr not sorry.

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I like the advice of just a short, simple response. Don't go into details trying to defend your decisions of entering this lifestyle. After all, they were YOUR decisions, not hers.

 

Then just give her some space. She'll have to decide if the friendship is worth overlooking, not necessarily accepting, your choices. The ball is in her court. A true friend will overlook your decisions in the lifestyle. They don't have to agree with them, but they respect you enough to stay out of that part of your life and keep the friendship where it belongs.

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I am going to keep my reply on this short...

 

If what you are doing is not affecting HER then it is none of her business.

Who is she (or anyone) to judge something that doesnt directly affect them.

 

Melody

 

PS...And for that matter...if she is so hotty totty why in the heck is she looking at your profile on any site that is for lifestyles that is not her cup of tea.

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I like the advice of just a short, simple response. Don't go into details trying to defend your decisions of entering this lifestyle. After all, they were YOUR decisions, not hers.

 

Then just give her some space. She'll have to decide if the friendship is worth overlooking, not necessarily accepting, your choices. The ball is in her court. A true friend will overlook your decisions in the lifestyle. They don't have to agree with them, but they respect you enough to stay out of that part of your life and keep the friendship where it belongs.

 

I agree, a short email is the best reply. I disagree with giving her some space to decide what she wants to do. You should make up your mind about whether you want her as a friend anymore or not. Personally, this one email is enough for me to know that she is not the close friend I thought she was. It would be enough for me to remove her from my group of friends. I take loyalty and friendship extremely seriously and an email like that is a slap in the face to me.

 

If you want to keep her as a friend then an email like: "I am sorry you feel that way. I hope it doesn't cause our friendship to end, I have always valued your friendship. I understand if you'd rather not continue our friendship."

 

In all honesty though, I think this girl is looking for a bit of drama. I'd hazard a guess that she is always in some sort of drama, though is probably always claiming that she hates drama and talking about how drama free she is. Don't get sucked in to her drama.

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Ouch, I sure that had a little sting to it and perhaps even A LOT of sting to it.

 

the first thing I have is a question, if she is so saintly where is it she is seeing your pictures????

 

Anyway, here are a few thoughts. Some people do find some things morally objectionable and are so turned off by them that they cannot continue a relationship. As an example if I found out one of my friends was a child molester I would not be able to morally rectify that enough to maintain a relationship with that person no matter how much enjoyed that person up untill the time I found out.

 

Unfortunately some people hold swingers in almost as high esteem as child molesters and murderers etc etc. From the tone and the terms this gal used I would say that she finds the whole concept of swinging totally distastefull and offensive and her opinion of you is now in the gutter.

 

In reading her message I get the tone that she is saddened that you are not what she perceived you to be and that she is not able to morally rectify her distaste for your swinging activities and allow herself to maintain a friendship with you. That is her call and there really isn't anything you can do about it to change her views. Her views may change over time as her own life and her own moral beliefs and values change but that is out of your control.

 

This is one of the realities and one of the facts of life of the lifestyle. some people find it offensive and distastefull. This is exactly why so many people value privacy and discretion so dearly. Friendships can be lost over it.

 

Anyway, my advice is don't argue, don't get mad and above all don't try to change her mind or her values. As she expressed how she felt about your activities but did not appear to try and get you to change your beliefs or behaviours I think it is fair for you to express that you are saddened by the loss of her friendship and companionship but as she did not try to change your moral beliefs you should not try to change hers or attempt to defend yourselves or defend your decisions made as consenting adults.

 

You could say you are saddened by the loss of her friendship but understand that some people will not understand or agree with your lifestyle choices. I would also state that you will leave the door open for any future correspondence should she ever have a change of heart and then leave it at that.

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Fuck em if they can't take a joke. That she had the balls to send such an email in the first place tells the tale. We are very no nonsense about this. If you are judgmental about our lifestyle take a hike. Period.

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Fuck em if they can't take a joke. That she had the balls to send such an email in the first place tells the tale. We are very no nonsense about this. If you are judgmental about our lifestyle take a hike. Period.

 

Part of me wants to agree with you but I think the reality is that a lot of people will be taking hikes around you if that is really how you conduct your affairs. (I dont' mean you you knb, I mean people in general)

 

Unfortunately this isn't just a vanilla phenominon either, people in the lifestyle will judge and disavow you too for your lifestyle activities. There are people that are actice swingers themselves that will decide at some point that you swing "too much" or "too little" and will turn their backs. People have lost friendships over swinging too much or swinging with the wrong crowd or with the wrong color or because they screw single males or because they don't screw singles etc etc etc etc - the list can go on forever.

 

It may be wrong and it may not be fair but everyone judges and everyone is judged by others. When someone does something or becomes something that someone else finds distastefull they will severe the ties whether it makes sense to anyone else or not.

 

My question still stands to the OP, How was this gal able to see your pictures? The reason I ask is any pictures you put up anywhere is your billboard and people will judge you based on what they see and even though that picture may be a nanosecond frozen in time out of your life that is what they are going to base their perception of you on.

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Part of me wants to agree with you but I think the reality is that a lot of people will be taking hikes around you if that is really how you conduct your affairs. (I dont' mean you you knb, I mean people in general)

 

Not sure why you'd say that. We make no secret about our lifestyle outside of work and some family. Our neighbors know. Our friends know. Our neighbors friends and our friends neighbors also know. Heck, our neighbors parents know, and one night we were all at a casino night party, neighbors mom was a bit drunk and was outing me to the dealers! "Psst... I know things about him..." while pointing at me. It was hilarious.

 

To date we have had not a single negative reaction nor have we lost any relationships. That said, were we ever to receive an email like the OP got, if we chose to respond at all, it would likely be to say too bad so sad.

 

I would not wish to associate with someone of such a mindset.

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I certainly agree with the majority here and my reaction would be to send a stiff little reply saying something along the lines of "Thank you for revealing yourself as judgmental, narrow-minded and intrusive, otherwise I might have continued to think you were someone I might want as a friend."

 

However, if you are at all desirous of keeping a relationship with this person, you need to go into educator mode. She's taking the standard morality of our culture, judging you and coming up shocked. You can't really say "don't judge me" because that's already happened. All you can do (and I stress, you don't NEED to do this and she doesn't sound worth saving to me, but you may wish to try) is get together with her (I wouldn't try this over email) and express that you understand that she might be shocked, but you'd like to explain some things. Then give her a summary of the swinging ethics and rationale, as well as a chance to ask questions.

 

On the plus side, this gives you a chance to salvage the friendship and expand her world view. It also makes you the much better person.

 

On the minus side, it's annoying and she might end up even more upset than before (you've THOUGHT about this horrible betrayal of marriage and decided it was OKAY!!!!). But I did want to point out the option.

 

Mrs. Ivory, who wants every situation to be a learning situation.

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"Advice on where to go from here with this?"

 

I would send a short reply saying:

"We will both miss both of you".

And that would conclude the message.

Signing it is optional.

:cool:

 

I'm going with this as the reply of choice.

 

We try to keep things simple, and this does it. No bridges burned, nothing said that will later be regretted. It puts the ball back in the offended couple's court. I'm thinking, if I sent a judgmental "you used to be my hero" letter to someone and this was their reply, I would pretty much be stopped in my tracks, and forced to make a decision about either letting it go, or letting the friend go.

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I certainly agree with the majority here and my reaction would be to send a stiff little reply saying something along the lines of "Thank you for revealing yourself as judgmental, narrow-minded and intrusive, otherwise I might have continued to think you were someone I might want as a friend."

 

A reply like that would certainly make you feel good in the moment. A bit of venting, a bit of retribution, a bit 'sticking it to her'. Unfortunately it would also just feed into the drama. It's not going to make her rethink anything, it's going to make her respond with even more passive aggressive 'non-judgmental' behaviour. She'll play the victim, she will talk to all your friends about how she tried to support you as a friend in a non-judgmental way and you responded in an aggressive manner that used to be "out of character". I'd also expect she would start to let slip your swinging as well, as further signs that "you've changed".

 

That's a bit of mind-reading there. Might not happen, but a response like that would increase the likelhood of a situation like that manifesting itself. Much better to either not respond, or to respond in a nice way. It won't feel as good to you, but it's better for you.

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Much better to either not respond, or to respond in a nice way. It won't feel as good to you, but it's better for you.

 

Agree 100%. Don't get nasty or defensive, or again, feel the need to defend your choices.

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"Advice on where to go from here with this?"

 

I would send a short reply saying:

"We will both miss both of you".

And that would conclude the message.

Signing it is optional.

:cool:

 

I always have the inclination to write back something snarky and it would get me into trouble every time. The message that it'sso wrote is very simple, very clear, gets the point across and leaves nothing to regret.

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I tend to agree with LikeMinds here.. expecting that you will go on forever as friends is expecting a LOT out of people.

 

I think a few pieces of information would be helpful here...

1. How long have you all been friends?

2. How did they end up finding out about your lifestyle

3. Is this a vanilla site that you are posting swingery pics on (it sounds like it). From the way the email was worded I'm guessing MySpace or even Facebook (or something similar).

 

The truth is when you come out to your friends you have to expect that you will lose some of them. A real friend/ a best friend that is really your friend should (in an ideal world) love you no matter what. But, what you have to ask yourself is how good of friends were these people really? Did you purposely come out to them because you really thought they were THAT good of friends? or did they find out accidentally? If you did not intentionally tell them then I'm guessing the reason for not doing so is the same reason most of us don't share this side with our vanilla friends... because we don't expect them to accept it. Somewhere in the back of your mind you had an idea that if they found out they might react this way.

 

LM pointed out that you are young (24 I believe she noted, from other posts), so I'm guessing your friends are in your same age range. Unfortunately, at that age people THINK they know who they really are... but are really just learning. I say that because I still remember what it was like at that age... and I can look back now and know the truth of where I really was. We are all pretty idealistic at that point. You are no exception and neither are your "friends". She obviously had an idealistic view of you and your wife and now the you that she thought you were is not the true you. She says you've lost sight of the real you... the truth is that she never knew the TRUE you to the extent that she thought she did (although she does admit that you were always more open-minded than she is) and she is now angry to realize that and she feels like she's been duped into believing you were someone that she created in her mind.

 

As for how to respond. I think that comes down to your decision as to whether or not you want to attempt to keep them as friends. If you don't, then I'd go with Its'so's response.

 

If you do want to keep them as friends then I would latch onto that one key piece of what she said... that your wife was always more open minded than she is. Go with that. It honestly sounds to me from reading her email that she is trying to wrap her mind around what you guys are doing and somehow thinks that now that is all you are and therefore completely not the people she thought she knew. I think it's important to remind her / them that you are still the same people that they knew before. You just happen to have a hobby that they don't share. They may not find it morally acceptable and that's ok, it becomes up to you to explain that you do. They can either accept you as you are, or they can move on. Let them know that you want them in your life if they want to be there, but if they are going to continue to judge you (which they are doing) then you won't put up with it. There is no reason that this needs to be even be an issue between you or come up in conversation again after this is settled.

 

The messages you got remind me a lot of the discussions (via phone and email) between my mom and I when I accidentally outted myself to her almost 10 years ago. We went back and forth in a similar manner (including her discussing it with my at the time husband) and our basic response was "we are adults this is what we have chosen". Eventually, the topic was completely dropped and has NEVER been discussed again.

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"Advice on where to go from here with this?"

 

I would send a short reply saying:

"We will both miss both of you".

And that would conclude the message.

Signing it is optional.

:cool:

 

Right on...........:EG:

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Well thank you for all the posts. Where it stands now we wrote her a short email basically saying we are sorry she feels that way about our lifestyle but hope that in the future she can accept it and that we have enjoyed her as a friend.

 

She responded by saying such a short email proves to her that my wife hasn't changed and won't change so that basically she doesn't want to be friends anymore. I guess all in all this is the way things should be, this friendship seems to be getting toxic.

 

Secondly for those of you asking about the pictures. The pictures are not on a lifestyle website. They are on a normal social networking site and only my wife's friends are able to view them. We have since made the restrictions even more. Additionally, the pictures are nothing more than us dancing and having cocktails. There is no skin shown or anything raunchy

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Foozball,

 

My strongest suggestion is to keep your swinging life completely separate from your vanilla life. We do, there are no ties between who knows up publicly, our "friends," and our "Swinging Friends." But you have blended the two situations somehow, I can't tell from your posts. But you did. So you need to go back and find out how you caused this to happen.

 

Good Luck!

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Friends, Acquaintances, often just the same, both fickle.

It will take time but you will move on already have.

Other than that you rattled her insecure bones.

She probably watches to much doctor Phil or similar crap.

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foozballnow said:
Well thank you for all the posts. Where it stands now we wrote her a short email basically saying we are sorry she feels that way about our lifestyle but hope that in the future she can accept it and that we have enjoyed her as a friend.

 

That's pretty cool of you guys to do that in such a way.

 

 

Quote
She responded by saying such a short email proves to her that my wife hasn't changed and won't change so that basically she doesn't want to be friends anymore. I guess all in all this is the way things should be, this friendship seems to be getting toxic.

 

Anytime people who don't understand our lifestyle and feel the need to give us their opinion like this. We just smile, carry on our lives and let them wonder. Silence is golden sometimes.....

 

We do have to wonder ourselves, reading the initial e-mail. If in a few years they may take an interest themselves. It sounds to us like they are interested, but just have to battle their own judgments, about themselves, not you actually...:rolleyes:

 

You could always send them a link to the Swingers Board :)

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She responded by saying such a short email proves to her that my wife hasn't changed and won't change so that basically she doesn't want to be friends anymore. I guess all in all this is the way things should be, this friendship seems to be getting toxic.

 

This response by her proves she was attempting to change your wife, regardless of her words to the contrary.

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They don't pay your bills or write your paycheck... It's your life, live it the way you want to.

 

Word... :thumbsup:

 

For someone who says she's non-judgmental, clearly her letter indicates the contrary. She does not understand the lifestyle and probably never will.

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This situation is very predictable. Telling your vanilla friends that you are in the swing lifestyle usually leads to losing friends. The only unusual aspect here is that the message was sent. Usually, your (former) friends keep their sentiments to themselves and just drift away.

 

I would not try to justify or defend your lifestyle choices. My response would have been to politely say "I don't want to discuss that." Leave the choice of breaking the friendship up to your friend. Remember, the "guilty" party is not your friend. She is just being overly honest, as you apparently were. It is similar to a husband admitting he kissed another woman, thinking there was nothing wrong with it, and expecting his wife not to be hurt.

 

Judging your friend's lifestyle choices does not change anything either. It only brings you down to her level.

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This is classic humanity...condemn what you don't understand.

 

It's my guess she hasn't taken the time to learn from those with experience what our lifestyle is all about. She hasn't learned that no means no, that cheating is unacceptable, that critisizing others who are different without knowing the details is childish and that quality swinging relationships are based on trust, admiration and a certain 'love' we have for one another.

 

She mentions drinking...maybe there's too much drinking. This detail would be worth examining for the sake of your health.

 

In the end I wouldn't fight it. Live as you will, keep the details and what you do clear of her and when she really wants to know she'll ask. Only then will she be open minded enough to consider as acceptable the details of what we find to be so fulfilling.

 

Trace

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Chico said:

 

It sounds like your friend had an 'image' in her mind of your wife being someone to look up to and as someone to strive to be like.

 

The fact that she has a child while unmarried yet acts this way sort of makes sense in light of this.

 

Your wife was the what she wanted to be, instead of who she was.

 

Now your wife does something she doesn't understand and completely shatters that image your friend had of your wife. She is trying to 'save' your wife in such a way that can reestablish your friends mental image of your wife.

 

Its sort of like hero worship when you figure out your hero is 100% human. My guess is she now angry with herself for that hero worship and being what most weak minded people do when they are angry with themselves, she will take it out on and blame your wife for ruining her perfect illusion.

 

 

Can't add anymore to what Chicup said. He nailed this. It hurts exponentially more when it is family whose illusion is broken. Fun can become pain and no fun. There is no going back.

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Kind of like when my best friend and I supported different candidates for the election. I got over it and so did he. But I was a bit shocked at first. I thought that we sympatico when it came to the pertinent issues.

 

If your wife's friend cannot find a way to realize that the person she respected is still the same person, regardless of a certain recreational lifestyle, then the respect and the friendship was never really there. It was just another case of people treating others as objects instead of living breathing people.

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foozballnow said:
Secondly for those of you asking about the pictures. The pictures are not on a lifestyle website. They are on a normal social networking site and only my wife's friends are able to view them. We have since made the restrictions even more. Additionally, the pictures are nothing more than us dancing and having cocktails. There is no skin shown or anything raunchy

 

Then my question would be what gave this woman the idea you were swingers? Based on this I would have given her the old "what are you talking about"?... deny deny deny and then reply to her with the We will miss you.. since we don't need judgemental drama in our lives.

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very short reply.

 

stick a fork in it and consider it done. move her on... life's too short for drama bombs, either in or out of the lifestyle.

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FOOZBALLNOW: Well thank you for all the posts. Where it stands now we wrote her a short email basically saying we are sorry she feels that way about our lifestyle but hope that in the future she can accept it and that we have enjoyed her as a friend.

 

She responded by saying such a short email proves to her that my wife hasn't changed and won't change so that basically she doesn't want to be friends anymore. I guess all in all this is the way things should be, this friendship seems to be getting toxic.

 

Secondly for those of you asking about the pictures. The pictures are not on a lifestyle website. They are on a normal social networking site and only my wife's friends are able to view them. We have since made the restrictions even more. Additionally, the pictures are nothing more than us dancing and having cocktails. There is no skin shown or anything raunchy

 

My friend, its a sad thing that has occured, and to echo most of the posts that woman who while saying one thing and writing another was attempting to sit in judgement over your wife and you..

 

We have been prayed for, for far less, by those that felt they were of a higher station morally than us.. to which we simply replied.. Why Thank YOU!!

 

Marriage is between two people (unless you are one of warren jeff's followers) However the swinging lifestyle isnt about marriage, its about something completely different, Enjoying sharing fun times with like minded friends, sex, and good feelings.. One has nothing to do with the other, unless it causes PROBLEMS in the marriage, but you DONT HAVE TO BE MARRIED to enjoy it.. It helps though to share it with your significant other

 

Two equally evil thoughts occur to me, the first is, to write one last letter, to state the simple fact.. that, you werent looking for her to JOIN you..adding "The thought NEVER crossed our minds..NOT ONCE..Gawd No!"

 

The other is, to ask has she felt this way the WHOLE time she has known you, Adding that you were into this longer than you have KNOWN her.. and who you were then didnt bother her in the least..

 

People like this unfortunately are litteraly around every corner, and not ever worth a dime a dozen, as far as we are concerned..

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i understand all the talk about being honest with folks. I myself happen to be brutally honest with folks people say sometimes to honest. I don't think you can ever be too honest. See, I call a duck a duck a cat a cat and a dog a dog. What I mean is I call it as I see it and the way I see honesty is this however as I say this I will always continue to be honest...

 

EVERYBODY SAYS TELL ME THE TRUTH, DON'T LIE TO ME, BUT IN REALITY THEY DON'T WANT TO REALLY HEAR THE TRUTH BECAUSE THEY MAY HAVE TO LOOK AT THEMSELVES AND DISCOVER THINGS THEY DON'T WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THEMSELVES and then all of a sudden after you give them what they want as stand there in shock you just became the worlds biggest asshole. I mean if you look fat in a pair of jeans to me, don't ask me if you do look fat unless you are prepared to hear what I have to say.

 

Now as far as the couple that was outted by their vanilla friends, I like the too bad so sad approach. And yes, say it with all honesty but when deciding whether or not to keep the friendship it is more important to be brutally honest with yourselves. After all it is your chosen lifestyle, not theirs.

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On 3/27/2009 at 12:49 PM, foozballnow said:

Hi everyone, We do our best to keep your fun life and our vanilla life separate. However a few friends found out recently and my wife received this email from the female half of the other couple. We don't even know where to go from here...let's see what you think. Sorry for the length, she rambles and tries to sound smart with big words.

 

Here is one part...

 

There are many things that I have seen that I do not necessarily agree with and I am not one to judge as I have done my fair share of crazy things. First, but I think above all else, I keep morality a priority. As you know, everyone has their threshold of what they could or couldn't tolerate in a relationship, so I am no one to butt into your life -- I just don't think I could agree with the kinds of things that I have heard (or activities) that you are now a part of. Truth is, I really did look up to you. Not only as a person, but as a friend. What I should say is that I feel some what ashamed. I don't approve of your lifestyle lately (again I am not your parent for you to be concerned at all on anything that I say, as I am just expressing the way I feel) and by that I mean, the constant drinking, the photos published on ****** of you bending over in front of other men/women, etc. I feel as if I were to not check your ****** in several months, I wouldn't miss a thing -- I would see the same pictures just different backgrounds. Again, please don't take this offensively, just try to understand what I am saying.

 

then she goes on...

 

I am not sure if the way I perceive things have changed since my priorities in life have shifted since I first met you. I just feel like somewhere along the lines, you lost sense of who you really are. You have always had a more open mind than me -- and I guess that's where we differ, however, I think there is a fine line between morality and dignity.

 

Whatever you and *husband* do in private is none of my business and by all means completely out of my league, and I trust that hopefully, *husband* will always have your best interest at heart.

 

I have always been very old fashioned in my way of thinking and please forgive me if you find any of what I am saying to be insulting, but marriage to me is sacred. I think marriage is between two people and two people only. As I could agree with you, I think everyone should have fun and try things at least once, however, I am scared to think that you could possibly be taking this swinging thing to a whole new level. Again, I am limited as to my conclusions because I am not involved in your life, so please correct me if you deem it necessary.

Well for someone that feels its not there place to butt in I feel like she kinda bull in the China shopped it.  So I had something like this pop up once, they say my picture on a swing site, to which I replied, curious, so do you visit swing town often?  Are you a member there, you little minx you never told me you were into swinging!  She did not have an answer just denied being a swinger.  I then asked her if she had known before seeing the picture, to which she said no.  I proceeded to say that is because you are my friend not my fuck buddy.  I know how to have an appropriate relationship with my friends and family without having sex with them.  And I know how to talk respectfully and I know when to mind my own business.  Currently you are talking about something that you have no right to talk to me about.  Who ever showed you that picture is a member of swing Town and if they aren't swinging yet they want too.  So we can be done with this conversation and go back to a normal friendship, devoid of sexual references, or you can take your judgemental ass out that door and never darken it again, because I am a grown adult and I'll fuck whomever I want in the privacy of my own home.  She left but then returned two days later very apologetic.  Don't let them shame you, your grown ass adults.  

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Two things:

The first is that since the pictures were vanillish if a bit wild and intended for non LS friends to see, how did you friend make the leap to you being swingers?

 

The second is , after all these years how did this finally play out?

 

I ask this because there was a time when my wife was shocked by finding out that her best friend was a Lesbian. She was confused and heartbroken. She considered just ending the friendship. Fortunately she thought things through before saying anything.

 

She decided that this friend had gone through some of my wifes transformative moments and my wife through hers ,and through that all they had held firm to their friendship.

 

This lady hadn't changed anything about herself. All of her admirable traits were still there. My wife just had a bit more information. She decided that she needed to adjust her view point . She went from an uninformed person as far as same sex relationships into who she is now.  They remain as they were, friends for longer than the forty years that we have been together. This friend is the only non LS person that my wife has felt free to share our LS choice with.

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There is a larger issue here. Every human of our ken has preferences. Food preferences, movie preferences, sports team preferences, political preferences and...yes...even sex preferences. Preferences are not values. Values such as honesty, trust, and so on. Values are not integrity--integrity derives from persons living and not compromising those values. Most of us gravitate to persons who have values and live those values and are thus considered to have integrity. 

 

Preferences invade relationships when those preferences become somehow threatening. Most commonly this arises from an expression of intolerance. For example, we recently received a post from someone who told us that if we failed to embrace Jesus as our personal savior, we had no right to call ourselves Americans. (one of us is Jewish). Sometimes it is an expression of ridicule, "you actually shop there?"  The simplest way to avoid such things is to recognize that there is a difference in preference and substitute a genuine curiosity with the question "why"?  It shows respect for preference as preference. 

 

Swinging is a preference.

 

Sexual orientation is emphatically not a preference. It is how someone is 'wired' and all wirings are deserving of respect provided they do not impinge on others' safety or integrity. We have gay friends, lesbian friends, bi friends, and straight friends. Intermediate as well. Friends with whatever pronouns he/she/they choose. 

 

It is reasonable to inquire as a curiosity "why do you swing" in the context of a happy marriage? The question need not be answered, of course. 

 

It is never reasonable to question--much less judge--someone's sexual orientation.

 

Neither sexual preference nor sexual orientation nor, for that matter, should  sexual interest be a threat to anyone in the LS owing to the first rule "No means no". 

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I wouldn't have replied. I've found that people who want to push their beliefs on you, put you down because they think their beliefs are superior, are just terrible people. Who are they to say anything about how you live life? 

 

Again, I wouldn't have replied. I would have marked their email as spam and moved on. 

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