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This is a question I received:

 

One of the major concerns my wife has is "what if the swingers club gets raided while we are there?" Does this happen? What can I tell her?

 

I'm interested to see if anyone has any thoughts on this subject. Has anyone ever been at a club when it's been raided?

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Why would a club be raided? There's no prostitution going on, and any decent club will prohibit drugs, and as far as I know, most clubs don't even serve alcohol.

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Originally posted by NJ Couple:

Why would a club be raided? There's no prostitution going on, and any decent club will prohibit drugs, and as far as I know, most clubs don't even serve alcohol.

 

It has happened on many occasions across the US. Just because you aren't doing anything illegal at the club doesn't mean that some people won't say you ARE. The cops can come in at any time and detain everyone there for whatever reason they come up with "public nudity", "adultery", whatever. Chances are it won't hold but it can cause problems.

 

Other problems that have occurred (as with one club in MI) is the press. At an off-premise club in MI, the local FOX News affiliate managed to sneak into the party with a camera and broadcast what they saw (which was nothing) and tried to tell the public what was going on. This of course led to the members of that club being quite scared to attend again.

 

Some states have actually outlawed swinging, in most states it is illegal indirectly because adultery is illegal. Remember the US is a very prudish country, once you marry you aren't supposed to have sex with other people.

 

This is why house parties are becoming more and more popular again, with advertising only being done via word of mouth.

 

Most clubs do make every effort to make sure that there is no reason for anyone from the outside to be able to come in and cause problems, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. All it takes is an "anonymous" tip from a competing club (yes clubs do compete) to the police for them to come in during a party and cause problems.

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Guest CyberMWCouple

In many states, there is a law against 'Pandering'. Pandering is defined as: A person who provides the means of helping to satisfy the ignoble ambitions or desires, vices, etc. of another. As you can see, the owners of a club could possibly be held accountable for actions of the members. This is the reason there are Off-premise clubs.

 

Personally, we are not into the club 'scene', for this and other reasons. But I must admit that it is a scary thing to think that you might wind up on TV as a member of a 'Sex Gang'.

 

Does this answer your question?

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Is there a website with ACCURATE information about the various laws, state by state, that concern swing clubs and swinging in general? And what about local ordinances? I can easily imagine a district attorney or sheriff here in rural Central Pennsylvania raiding a club for some cheap publicity.

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Hmmm. Seems to us that it would be best to stay away from the clubs just before elections. That's when this sort of raid usually takes place. :mad: Why do Americans insist on electing the type of people who are more than willing to stoop to power politics? :confused:

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I don't know of any websites with info regarding such laws from state to state. In most cases your club owners would have already done their homework and made sure that whatever they are doing is completely legal.

 

However, even if what they (and you) are doing is completely legal they can still come up with reasons to go after a club. And it does happen all the time.

 

Another issue is the media. I've seen many cases where someone from the media has snuck into a swingers club with a camera and reported on what they saw. That usually tends to freak the club members out and scare them away for a while.

 

I'd say one of your best bets is to stick with a club that is pretty well established (aka been around a while) or one that they are associated with. It seems like sometimes newer club owners/hosts don't quite realize some of the things they do to cause themselves problems. For instance, one club that I know of that started recently actually INVITED someone from a news station to cover their party. Grantd we've seen some fairly impartial articles lately posted here but in general that doesn't happen. That invite led to the police in the area knowing about the party, which had them sitting just down the street from the hall after the parties just waiting to pull people over on their way out. It also scared a lot of the members to the point where the following party or two was pretty dead and those that were there were scared to do anything other than sit at tables and drink.

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Guest <TessnBob>

It is a shame that people even have to worry about going out to a club because it might get raided. We have done a lot of research on this subject and this is what we've found:

* On Premise. Off-Premise and house parties are all susceptible to raids.

* Length of time a club has been established doesn't affect one's chances to be raided.

* Most raids aren't by the ABC or alcohol related.

* Many of the raids happened because other clubs initiated an investigation

* It doesn't matter how a club is set up ALL clubs are possible targets.

* There are only 2 places where "swing clubs" are currently forbidden: Phoenix & Hollywood Fl (both bans are currently being fought in court)

 

That is the bad news... The good news is that there has been many recent victories that should discourage future raids. Club owners are also getting smarter and better information is being shared to help prevent these raids.

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Thanks for the great info Bob & Tess. Interesting that swing clubs are banned in Phoenix considering how many swing clubs that exist there.

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We went to the club that was raided about 4 months after the fact. We did not know at the time what had happened there. We hooked up with a couple there. He worked at FOX broadcasting (not a reporter), and their interest was piqued by the story...just thought I would share that tidbit.

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This was a very old question that never got any response, but with the recent raids that have happened I wanted to bump it up and see if we could get some feedback from anyone who might have been involved in a raid.

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When I ran my swing club in Hawaii, I was still enlisted in the Air Force. Most of my club members (there were 300 couples when I took over... 3,000 couples when I handed the reins over to my successor) were military, but I also had police, politicians, newspaper folks, government folks... people from all walks of life. Luckily, we never faced any form of political harassment.

 

Those clubs that have been raided recently (and especially the one in NYC) have all had more than just legal proceedings on their premises. Although one can argue that it is nearly impossible to keep drugs out of a club, the difference in the NYC club is that the employees were allegedly selling drugs. And there was more than just sex between consenting adults - whereas my club was an on-premise club, I never hired anyone in to perform sex acts of any sort. The NYC club was allegedly involved in some form of prostitution, primarily for the single men that were in attendance.

 

I have not heard of other clubs that were raided recently except for the NYC club from 2 or 3 weeks ago. If there were others, can someone list where they were located? Having worked in management in a swing club and having known dozens and dozens of other club owners or managers, I feel confident in saying that, in 9 of 10 situations, the local law enforcement does not harass swing clubs/parties, so long as they do not get out of hand and do not allow illegal or illicit activities on site.

 

I would bet that most, if not all, of the clubs that have recently been raided were those that allowed illegal/illicit activities to occur on premise. I don't think that you would have seen them raided otherwise.

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Public interests groups, if they hear about something they feel will lower property values or attract "the wrong crowd" will notify local news crews, who are too happy to raid a sexually oriented business for higher ratings. It doesn't even have to be a sex business. I read about a sporting goods store in either Utah or Idaho that closed and moved to a different city because a group complained that they sold thong bikinis and didn't want their granddaughters buying them. Another group, with the help of the police and sheriff's department in Pierce County, tried to open a 15-21 dance club but was shot down by a group that didn't want teenagers congregating in one spot after dark. Its not the same thing, but complaints by enough people are just as powerful as breaking an actual law. It can't put you in jail, but it can send you to court and put you out of business.

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So much for a free country... seems that too many zealots are holding the purse strings to the government... and making the government follow their wishes - no teen gatherings... no sporting goods stores with thong bikinis... no social clubs for consenting adults...

 

My forefathers came to this country in 1699. The first of them landed in Perth Amboy, NJ, about 20-25 miles from where I live now, because Scotland was as bad as the rest of the UK and Europe - bias based on religion, the caste system & other mundane and trivial things. Considering this country was based on freedoms and the ability to choose that which you felt was acceptable to you, one can argue - strongly I might add - that we have become what was once our own worst enemy - censors, bigots, zealots & the like.

 

Maybe it is time to build a new Mayflower...

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We've been in two raids at bdsm events. One in NJ everyone just had to not be nekkid or actually make physical contact with anyone and it was allowed to go on (a 3 day event no less). The other was in Philly where everyone had to leave, they used fire code violations. Both events we were vending at so it kinda stank.

Recently, the ChristNazi's put the kabosh on the Black Rose event planned for Ocean City Md. Basically, the clerk of the liquor board threatened to pull the hotel's liquor license if we were there. Keep in mind we would have had the entire hotel and it would be closed to the public. Since we don't want to harm those who support us we decided to move the event to a friendlier environment. So PG county got our $300,000 + in their economy instead of OC. And the event was a great success.

 

A big plug here. Anyone who cares about their freedoms should check out this site: NCSFreedom - National Coalition for Sexual Freedom - NCSFreedom.org

 

These folks are a great resource when dealing with cops, media, and others.

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Since a lot of swingers turn out to be in Law Enforcement, these raids can get a little awkward, to say the least. Imagine seeing you buddy and his wife naked with another couple during a raid! :eek:

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Originally posted by Vjklander

We've been in two raids at bdsm events...

Both events we were vending at so it kinda stank.

 

Maybe we didn't hear about these incidents either because they were related to the BDSM lifestyle or because local news medias felt it wasn't important. Most likely it was the media that didn't feel it was of any real news-worthiness.

 

And there may be many more incidents where the event doesn't go on because of pulled licenses, failure to get a license or some other issue prior to the event. In those cases, the public simply doesn't know that there was an issue in the first place.

 

Regardless of both previous points though, I don't know if I would include events such as you mentioned, especially the BDSM events, because there WAS vending at the event. Although they do qualify as First Amendment liberties taken from us, I would group them separately from a simple swing club only because a swing club is more socially inclined - people gather to meet and to socialize... and to have sex in some clubs... without it being a service-oriented gathering and they are typically private and by invitation only. To the best of my understanding, the events that you described, especially those having vendors present, are often open to the public and service-oriented - people attend these functions to gather information; purchase equipment, toys, etc.; listen to speakers; attend courses. And they are multi-day events to boot. So I would group them separately from the swing club raids.

 

However, the bottom line is that they are both First Amendment issues - the government doesn't allow its citizens to enjoy themselves as they see fit and too often sticks its nose, and its morals, where they do not belong. I am sure our forefathers did not think this is how government would treat its citizens when they drafted the Bill of Rights and the Constitution!

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Maybe it is time to build a new Mayflower..

 

but where would we go?

 

Maybe it's time we took back what is ours and that we start exposing the

christNazis
and other assorted "zealot" types for what they are....

 

If, as I have often heard, "the pen is mightier than the sword" then we need to start penning more often against those that weild their sword to excess.

 

=================================

 

about raids: I've never been involved in one myself -- I was told once though that using a local eating establishment as my meeting place for potential playmates I had met online would result in my being arrested as a prostitute. When I said "let's go to jail" to the kind officer he said "oh, they won't prosecute you, they'll just hold you for 72 hours and then dismiss it..." hmmmmm "harrassment" or a kind warning....?

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Originally posted by BettyAnnMBSC

about raids: I've never been involved in one myself -- I was told once though that using a local eating establishment as my meeting place for potential playmates I had met online would result in my being arrested as a prostitute.

 

BettyAnn... just one word - WOW!!!!!!!!

 

I can't believe that a cop would say such a thing! I would LOVE to see a cop try and arrest the two of us for talking with a couple or a bi female we had met to discuss swinging.

 

First of all, a prostitution charge must have an offer and an acceptance. Not simply 'Wanna have sex? Yes.' For a prostitution charge to have any teeth what so ever, you need to discuss the act as well as the cost. I don't know about anyone else on this board, but we have never charged anyone a fee to get into bed with us... nor have we been charged.

 

Second, how can a cop, with a straight face, say it is against the law to meet with potential friends in a restaurant? By meeting, you are effectively interviewing them to be friends... no matter how intimate or not you might become. Does this mean that I can no longer bring potential employees to a restaurant because it, too, will be construed as prostitution?

 

Finally, if this is how law enforcement plans on cracking down on swingers, then we, as a group MUST do something about it... the religious right has sadly taken too much control of the nation, from politics down to the retail stores! It is becoming more apparent by the day that the supposed separation of church & state no longer exists... and that the religious right is force-feeding their drivel down the unwitting public's throats!

 

Wow... that story has me VERY fired up & pissed off!!!! Thanks for sharing it though!!

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As a club owner, I am glad to see that some people are outraged that conservative special interest groups have had undue influence. Now however, is the time that you have to do something about it.

 

Most raids fall into 2 categories.

1) lack of licensing or improper zoning

2) drug use/sales

 

In short, clubs get raided because they either break the law or allow their patrons to break the law. Some laws may need to be changed, but generally speaking clubs are founded either as a hobby (and the proper business research is never done) or because "everybody knows sex sells" and someone is trying to make a quick buck without concern for their patrons.

 

To those of you who have seen past posts of mine I apologize for once again getting on this particular soapbox. BUT, please do some research about the legality of the club you choose to patronize. There is no law that says "thou shalt not party" but once someone requires a "donation" or charges admission they are running a business and not holding a party.

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So... hypothetically speaking if I had a party at my home where I served eight to ten munchies (something like; crab dip, shrimp cocktail, and the like), invited 3 or 4 couples and left a "donation cup" (for lack of a better term) on the munchie table. Would I be breaking the law? The "donation would go toward the food expense, and would not be "required at the door". Or would it only be breaking the law if some of the couples had sex?

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No, it would only be against the law if a "donation" was required to gain access, either directly (PARTY ADMISSION: $25.00 p/couple) or indirectly ("Suggested Donation: $25.00 p/couple" and anybody who didn't pony up the scratch was ostracized or asked to leave). If you decided to hold a little party with 3-4 couples (or even 30-40 couples) and you put a "tip jar" on the table, with the clear understanding that donating and the amount to donate was completely voluntary, then you wouldn't be running a business and wouldn't be held to the same standards.

 

Being in Law Enforcement, I have to agree with Remox when they say that police raids come into three separate catagories... (at least in Pennsylvania)

 

1) Zoning Violations / Lack of a business license

2) Illegal substances (Alcohol or Drugs)

3) Prostitution

 

Speaking from experience, raids for reasons #1 and #2 are the most common cause for police involvement in such social gatherings, swinger-orientated or not.

 

Raids for Zoning Violations or a Lack of a Business License are usually initiated by the people who live in the neighborhood who file complaints. Police usually don't initiate these themselves, and are required to follow up on the filed complaints. Raids for Prostitution are usually citizen-initiated as well.

 

Raids for alcohol or drugs are more common. I've been on several noise complaint calls where I've knocked on the door to tell them to turn down the music to a dull roar when I've seen somebody smoking a joint right inside the party or rows of alcoholic beverages lined up on the tables with clearly underage people taking part.

 

In Pennsylvania, I have not been to one Lifestyle club yet that sells alcohol, or allows anybody under 21, and for a good reason. The Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board take their job very seriously, and will raid any establishment who they feel is serving alcohol either improperly or without a license. I've seen PLCB agents raid established, legit, hotels and bars because of a suspected Liquor License Violation. The PLCB do not have anything even resembling a sense of humor.

 

All in all, in my experience, while raids on Lifestyle-orientated clubs are unfortunate, they're not out of proportion with the amount of like actions against other establishments. And, usually, it turns out that there was a violation taking place. Again, this is just in my experience.

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4funfriend... I wouldn't bet on simply asking for donations (vs making it mandatory) would be legal. It depends on the laws of the particular community in which you hold the party and, more importantly, the mood of the arresting officer, prosecutor and judge. Chris & Amelia... bear with me here :) The fact is, if a law enforcement official wants to push prostitution charges, they will find loopholes to do so. Just because you didn't specifically ask for a donation doesn't mean it is not prostitution in the eyes of some LE officials. Again, it really depends on their mood... or personality... when it comes to that grey area.

 

Chris & Amelia... I am sure that you would agree that my comment above, although not in agreement with yours, is more accurate. A cop that is having a bad day or is affected by some other influence (divorce, death, accident, whatever) could be a prick and charge you with prostitution. That cop might have a rough time getting the DA to agree to those charges, but you have to admit that mood & personality does, on occasion, come into play, especially in areas like this that are so grey and lacking in definition. Perhaps another way to explain it... you would charge me with prostitution if I visited a prostitute and, although she and I didn't discuss cost, I knew what I should pay her and I left the money in a 'donation' till on my way out the door. Money still changed hands and a service was rendered. A good lawyer could get me off the charges, but that's another story :)

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First of all, a prostitution charge must have an offer and an acceptance. Not simply 'Wanna have sex? Yes.' For a prostitution charge to have any teeth what so ever, you need to discuss the act as well as the cost.

 

Understand that this happened in a very small back-country South Carolina town (the same town that gave a ticket to a guy on I85 for having a Calvin decal peeing on a Ford)

 

While a formal charge of prostitution might well require some formal evidence -- it is reality that small town law enforcement frequently "enforce" things a little too harshly or flat-out improperly.

 

In this case, my interests in meeting that evening had become a bit more public (met through a well known message board) than it should have...

 

But remember always -- while they may not be able to get a conviction, they can charge you with anything they think they have a reasonable suspicion of.... So the fine officer arrests you (or simply detains you for further questioning) for something and then the nice folks at the State's Attorney office decides not to pursue it... whatcha gonna do?

 

Interestingly, many people think it's perfectly OK to do that in some cases and abhorrent in others....

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Originally posted by BiCoupleNJ

Chris & Amelia... I am sure that you would agree that my comment above, although not in agreement with yours, is more accurate. A cop that is having a bad day or is affected by some other influence (divorce, death, accident, whatever) could be a prick and charge you with prostitution.

I won't disagree with that one bit. While I like to think that I'm an utmost professional, as are most of my colleagues, we are only human, and as such alot of the human variables come into play. If the cop is having a bad day, he/she may take it out on somebody. It's not right or proper, but it does happen.

 

I myself have gone to work feeling pretty cranky, and if you come off as snippy, usually the person you're dealing with may pick up on that and feel that you're directing your anger at them. They, in turn, will get argumentative, which results in the cop going into a defensive posture, which results in the citizen feeling he's being harassed, cause him to go into a combative posture, which results in the cop....etc. etc. etc. It's a vicious circle, which usually results in somebody getting hurt and/or arrested over nothing.

 

 

That cop might have a rough time getting the DA to agree to those charges

Most ADA's won't go along with criminal charges unless he or she feels they have a fairly good chance of conviction. They don't want to screw up their win-lose ratio. ;)

 

 

Perhaps another way to explain it... you would charge me with prostitution if I visited a prostitute and, although she and I didn't discuss cost, I knew what I should pay her and I left the money in a 'donation' till on my way out the door. Money still changed hands and a service was rendered.

And the intent to commit a crime, in this case Prostitution, was there. In many cases, it all comes down to the intent of the actor(s). In the case, you both knew that a set amount of money would be exchanged for sex. As such, the crime of prostitution was committed.

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I got to thinking a little after reading... and rereading... all the posts about this subject this morning. And, being a total analytical type, finding arguments in places that arguments simply don't exist, I came to a conclusion all of us in here have probably had for a long time (I did, too, but I just never commented on it)....

 

The government needs to GET THE F&CK OUT OF OUR LIVES... and let us all enjoy that in which we feel is most appropriate, so long as no one is being hurt or put in harm's way as a result...

 

Neither of us do drugs, but, if people want to smoke pot, legalize it and tax it - end of budget deficit.

 

Neither of us uses prostitutes, but, if people want to have sex with them, legalize and tax it - new budget surplus.

 

The list can go on and on...

 

Remox introduced us all to ILA... I am introducing everyone, including the two of us, to GO GET FOOOL -->

GOvernment GEt The F&ck Out Of Our Lives! :mad:

 

Sound good? Who's with us? Crap... guess we'll have to go it alone :lol:

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Originally posted by BiCoupleNJ

Those clubs that have been raided recently (and especially the one in NYC) have all had more than just legal proceedings on their premises. ..the difference in the NYC club is that the employees were allegedly selling drugs...clubs that were raided recently except for the NYC club from 2 or 3 weeks ago.

 

Okay, what did I miss? What club in NYC got raided recently??? Any links available? Sorry for my ignorance and thanks.

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I think I might be able to speak as one of the country's "experts" on this subject and shed a little light on this thread. As the chairman of the ILA I get a phone call on almost every raid that happens at a club around the country. Most of these clubs haven't signed up for the ILA or thought about helping this movement move forward, but the minute they are raided they come running for help (but that is another thread).

 

Here's some facts: In the last 5 years there has been at least 20 raids that I am aware of (sounds like a lot, but in the overall scheme of things, that really isn't a lot considering the number of clubs in existence). The only club charged with prostitution was a club in Canada and they successfully fought and won their battle and recently a new law passed by the Canadian Parliament at least opens the door to have legal "swing" clubs in Canada.

 

Most of the clubs were raided for zoning and the only other reason was for drugs. Let's start with the drugs. In some cases the local law enforcement community has used drugs to get a warrant so they can get access to a club hoping to find lots of drugs or other illegal activity. So far, we haven't seen any clubs successfully prosecuted for this (one case is currently going to trial in Mn, but I am pretty sure those charges will either be dropped or will not lead to a conviction).

 

Besides zoning, the only other case, in recent history, was the Trapeze case in S. Florida. They were charged with running an "obscene" business but the judge threw out the case saying that the only persons offended were the undercover officers making the arrests. This was a great case and set good precedence. 4 of the patrons that were arrested are suing the law enforcement agency and hopefully will get a cash award.

 

Finally, we get to zoning, our biggest threat. Currently, there are no local ordinances in any city where I (or anyone else for that matter) can apply for a permit to open a "swing" club. This is a problem. There are in fact two communities that have outlawed "swing" clubs all together: Phoenix, AZ and Hollywood, Fl. In most cases clubs have closed down or lost the case when fighting zoning ordinances. Mostly because the club owner simply cannot afford to fight the battle. The local law enforcement wins by default. In the case of Phoenix, Club Chameleon has already spent well over $150,000 and is fighting this in 3 different courts and is on their 3rd appeal in the Federal Appellate court. They are vowing to fight their case to the end (Supreme court?) but it is a difficult case. Their club was "raided" last weekend for the 3rd time.

 

Now to clear up the word "raid". What does raid mean? In the case of Phenix, it means that they come with 30 officers and bust in like gangbusters so that they can arrest the owner. It is not illegal in their eyes to attend a "swing" club, just to run one. Sure, it was scary, but the only person they were looking for was the owner. In other cases, like Trapeze, they arrested club members, in others, they photographed everyone in the club to scare and intimidate the members.

 

So what do we do? Shun clubs and head to private house parties? Many of the 20 raids I referred to earlier were at house parties where someone was charging a "donation" but really running a business out of their home. I think these types of parties are actually the highest risk.

 

I think the risk of getting "caught in a raid" is very minimal and should not scare you away from attending clubs, conventions or resorts. We can all huddle in our homes afraid to go outside, meet others and live our lives, but what a high price to pay for our fear.

 

And if you ever find yourself caught in a raid, remain calm, do not say anything, get a lawyer.

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I appreciate you offering your expertise on this subject.

 

However, you are not fully informed in this particular situation. The 'club' that was raided wasn't actually a club. You probably don't recall, but back a number of years, there was a latin 'club' in NYC in which quite a few people died when a person tossed a can of gasoline into the only entrance/exit of a club and lit fire to it and soaked rags. He did this because he wanted to get back at someone that was in the club. It is in this same building that the 'club' that was recently raided was located. It was not a 'club' as you, ILA or I would consider one. Think of it more along the lines of a bar or a speakeasy from the 30s.

 

The people that ran this 'club' are well known in NYC as owners of massage shops that front prostitution rings. Of those brought out during the raid, I believe any were couples. The people were primarily single males and single women, none of which knew each other outside of this establishment.

 

The 'club' in question did have a license to operate as a bar or a lounge. That isn't why it was raided. It was raided specifically for the prostitution ring that was run inside the establishment. The raid happened to also turn up drugs, which is not unusual for its location, clientele or primary function. The owners happened to note that Le Trapeze and other swing oriented clubs weren't raided as often, if at all, as ethnic clubs are in NYC, so they called the place a 'swing' club to divert attention from themselves.

 

Whereas Phoenix was a bonafide swing organization trying to simply enjoy the lifestyle, this place was nothing more than a front for prostitution and drugs. Quite a significant difference.

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Highlights of My Latest Updates:

 

1) Cops Bust Club Chameleon Saturday Night 12/6/03

 

2) AZ Republic Reports charges dismissed and Lawsuit filed against City.

 

1) Cops Bust Club Chameleon Saturday Night 12/6/03

Just when folks are celebrating the dismissal of the running a swing club charges the cops bust Club Chameleon again

 

From Club Chameleon Board:

For those of you still looking for info about last night... my wife and I were there the entire night and I'm happy to share my perspective. A little before 11 a number of Phx police officers - I would say a dozen - came into the club. They immediately spread out through out the club - opening all unlocked doors and shining flashlights. They arrested Kyle within the first few minutes and then basically just stood around until after the Club's lawyer showed up - probably 45 minutes later.

 

During the time they were in the club things were weird but the cops didn't hassle anyone. A few members were freaked and left but the staff did a great job keeping things as calm as possible and believe it or not a great number of people really didn't realize that something was even happening.

 

Myself and a few other members that were up front at the bar had a fairly lengthy discussion with the officers. They said that nobody attending the club was in any trouble at all and that they were not trying to close the club or cause any "trouble". They claimed that the club was violating Phx city ordinances regarding live public sex acts and that they were attempting to arrest Milo/Nancy or the mgmt responsible for this.

 

There was quite an exchange between the officers and members concerning whether there was in fact any violations occurring. The police claimed to have received "reports" of activities in the open areas during the past 2 weeks. They also said that they considered rooms without locks as public areas. As such they felt that people having a good time in the TV room for example would be a violation.

 

When asked specifically what was needed to make the club "conform" they refused to answer other than to say that the ordinance is clear and that members shouldn't worry because it is up to the club management to enforce and comply.

 

There was a little confusion immediately after the police left - nobody was really sure/clear on what was off limits. Initially the staff asked everyone to stay out of the "unlocked" rooms (mass hy, TV, and couples room) but within a few minutes they announced that only the TV room was off limits for the rest of the night.

 

The Couples and Mass H rooms had locks available on the doors so their immediate solution was to lock them and place staff at the doors to handle admission. Other than having to have staff unlock the doors to let you in everything was normal.

 

So for those of you wondering - that's what we experienced last night. The staff did a great job and although it was weird for awhile I would say that everyone still had a good time. I hope you will all join us in continuing to support the club and in sending M&N, Kyle, and the rest of the mgmt team are best wishes

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And in the Parking Lost

.........so much for "victory" - at 11pm the police were out in force last night. Two checking license plates in the parking lot. Two at the doorway with pad & pen, two more at the entrance of the parking lot. This city is out of control, the "holier than thou" crowd really needs to get some grip on reality. Phoenix now has it's very own "American Taliban leaders" where freedom of choice no longer has a place - you will be told how to live and act, ENJOY!! How sad.

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Another humous report

The most humorous parts of the evening were when Zoe (the worlds sexiest DJ) rounded up all her "cop" songs....and played them one after another....Marley's "I shot the sherrif" got a loud round of applause and yells! And as for nothing (sexual) happening? Well, I personally witnessed one of the raunchiest nights I have seen in ages in Mass Hysteria and the TV was being used and used well....the screens were just showing the previews of the film, but NOBODY cared! My husbands view point was...."this is my club, damnit, and I intend to use it!" So we did! And we will continue to do the same. SEE YOU ALL THIS SATURDAY FOR THE TOY SHOW AND GIRLS ONLY PARTY!!!!!!!

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The police seemed to enjoy the standing ovation they received when they were leaving but they didn't seem to care much for Zoe playing "I Shot the Sheriff" or her remark that "If your into handcuffs, we have a real treat for you tonight!" The rest of us liked it alot, though!!!!

 

2) AZ Republic Reports charges dismissed and Lawsuit filed against City but obviously didn't know about the Saturday night Bust at Club C.

To make matters even more confusing (although something here maybe a hint good for sexworkers):

 

Swingers hit back at city

The Arizona Republic Dec. 8, 2003

 

PHOENIX - The relentless battle between a swinger's club and Phoenix officials moved into a new phase Friday with the filing of a $500,000 claim against the city alleging false arrest and malicious prosecution.

 

Milo Fencl and operators of three other establishments were arrested during a Phoenix police operation last year that targeted social clubs where patrons openly engage in sex. Fencl and co-defendants claimed the misdemeanor criminal prosecution violated constitutional rights to free expression and association.

 

Various tangents of the legal conflict have been waged in Phoenix Municipal Court, Maricopa County Superior Court, the Arizona Court of Appeals, the U.S. District Court and the 9th Circuit Court.

 

Last week, city prosecutors dropped charges against Fencl, owner of Club Chameleon, who promptly had attorney Nick Hentoff submit a letter demanding $500,000 in personal damages. The letter paves the way for a lawsuit. Hentoff previously demanded $15 million on behalf of the club owners, and filed a civil complaint that remains open in Superior Court.

 

City officials, who were unavailable Friday, have said the statute was adopted to protect public health and morality. Even among consensual swingers, they argued, sexual acts are not protected by the First Amendment.

 

Fencl is the third defendant to have charges dropped; a fourth pleaded guilty.

 

The city has since modified its law, he added, and Club Chameleon has changed its operation so that sexual intercourse and other consenting acts by patrons occur in private.

 

Dave in Phoenix

Liberated Christians

http://www.libchrist.com

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United We Should Stand

For consenting adult private sex rights

Uniting Swinges, Adult Entertainers and Sexworkers

 

My "sermon" to swingers on the Club Chameleon Board

 

--- L M

> lessons learned by the gay community. They gained respect of lawmakers only one way, by showing power of their numbers by organizing nationally.

 

Amen...but...

 

> Wouldn't it be nice to have the President of the ILA come to Phx and talk to the council and mayor about this problem.

 

Dave in Phoenix said:

I think it would be more effective if a group of members from a Council persons district got together and tried to meet with their "representative".

 

But sarcastically I say "good luck". Based on prior experiences with City Council, they only want to meet with the religious right groups - they sadly are a vastly larger voting block than swingers and share most of the Council's personal beliefs it seems.

 

But I think folks should be contacting their Council reps, trying to meet, express outrage (in a nice way).

 

But as in many cities in the U.S., it seems very difficult to get anything done at the Council or legislative level, and our best friends are often the Courts. So we have to play the game, of restrictive laws, busts and then hope to win in Court fights which is expensive. However as a privacy issue we eventually may start winning in the Courts.

 

It is a slow hard battle against those that wish to protect the "morality" of citizens by force since many of us won't voluntary follow the dominant religious morality beliefs of the culture (Christian/Jew/Mormon). I get especially upset since their "morality" has no biblical basis only sex negative traditions. Whether you are Christian or not, our culture and laws are clearly impacted by the power of the Christian majority.

 

The other smaller glimmer of hope is getting laws changed by referendum. We saw it succeed in Los Angeles where in November 2003, enough signatures were raised to force a vote on 6 foot law for strip clubs where dancers can't come within six feet of a customer while topless or nude. In the face of a referendum the city backed down and mostly rescinded the law.

 

My idea is that various sex positive groups work together including adult entertainment (technically porn isn't prostitution only in California based on the Freeman California Supreme Court decision), swingers, strippers (in Phoenix it is a criminal act for a dancer on stage to touch her own breasts) and the huge sexwork industry of escorts etc which is my main interest, since not finding the right partner for swinging. I bet there are more escort/sexworker clients in the U.S. than swingers! Most just won't admit it.

 

In my view, we should have a united focus on "consenting adult private sex" which should be legal in all of its forms from swinging to sexwork, porn (shot in private) and strippers (private locked rooms). Street prostitution should remain illegal as a public nuisance issue unless in special zones of tolerance. Sexwork and swinging should be done in private including in private swing clubs like Club C for swingers or house/hotel room parties.

 

Polls taken even my Phoenix conservative media after "Operation House Call" seem to support the right of adult sexuality in private, even the City in the AZ Republic article 12/1/03 reporting the Club C story made "in private" the main issue. And we now have a U.S. Supreme Court case supporting the right of privacy for gay sexuality.

 

We should do what we can on the Council and Legislative front. But with groups such as The National Community Foundation based on Scottsdale working hard and fulfilling its stated goal to help 1000 cities across America pass more and more restrictive adult sex laws (to "protect neighborhoods and children"), it is the Courts or a Referendum process that seems more likely to be successful.

 

We have seen the legal system vs lawmakers beginning to show success regarding Operation House Call (the local conservative media even calling it Sheriff Joe's publicity stunt for using 350 officers to arrest 80 private sexworkers and their clients in one of the largest such stings in U.S. history). All charges have been dropped. But like it seems with Milo's they can still be re filed, except the customers were dropped based on entrapment (the cops set up operations in the busted sexworkers homes and lured clients in).

 

The U.S. is virtually the only country in the world where consenting adult private sex is illegal (which is why I enjoy Canada so much. Phoenix I believe is still the only city in the world where swing clubs are illegal. The city's argument against swing clubs has been based on either prostitution or protecting morality theories.

 

Phoenix is also a focal point for other cities across the nation regarding swinging. The morality fight began in Phoenix but it is in all U.S. swingers interest to be concerned what happens in Phoenix. If the religious groups are successful in restrictions on adult sexual freedoms in Phoenix, it will expand to other cities who are watching the legal fight in Phoenix. On the other hand if we can have victory of private rights to sexual freedom over morality laws it will help all sex positive adults in the U.S.

 

In Phoenix it has been mostly Club C under the powerful direction of Milo, Nancy, many Club members and attorney Nick Hentoff that have been the primary fighters for swingers. I like Nicks filing lawsuits against the city for their actions against Milo/Nancy and Club C.

 

Stevi Secret has fought the legal battles and won cases in the adult entertainment industry. She has been in the forefront of successful legal battles in Nevada and other places for adult entertainers. Stevi gave the "unite with swingers, sexworkers, adult entertainers" speech yesterday to her group. She owns a Phoenix strip club which features different porn star each week - Stevi Secrets . The club hosted a great fund raiser last weekend for PAW which helps adult entertainers in trouble. Stevi is a porn star and features with strip acts in major clubs in Las Vegas and San Francisco. We have been working closely together on issues for a number of years. She especially wants me to keep her group informed of the swing clubs issue and supports the common goals of swing clubs and adult entertainment/sexwork.

 

I am giving my "unite" sermon...and included Stevi's to my Private List Community of about 300 subscribers which is about sexwork in Phoenix, but needs to be via private e-mail for its legal protections. I founded the group in 1996.

 

I will also have my "unite sermons" consolidated soon on both libchrist.com and sexwork.com.

 

We have enjoyed some great media support. I have been very pleasantly surprised by the mostly on our side media take and their theme of wasting taxpayers dollars going after private adult sexworkers and swingers vs serious crimes that actually hurt people not morality crimes. The Channel 5 report on cops spending $22,000 on drinking and dancer tips in strip clubs to watch for slightest illegal touch was timely.

 

On with the battle.. the winning the war against morality laws is worth the fight for right of all sex positive people to have the right to consenting adult sexual privacy, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"!

 

Dave in Phoenix

Liberated Christians

Liberated Christians Polyamory, Swing, Biblical, Sybian Cyber Center

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Perhaps raids on swingers clubs could form the basis for the sequel to 'SWAT'?

 

Samuel L Jackson: "Let's nail those deviants!!!"

 

(Assuming he survived the first movie?)

 

;)

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>

 

I never refered to the club in NYC (referred to in your earlier posts). My posting was a geneal answer to those concerned about "raids". I do not have further information on the NYC club, so I cannot comment on it specifically.

 

I think the points I made are still valid, I hope you will agree on this point.

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While reading this thread, I remembered of one raids that happed here in Atlanta over a year ago. What the owner did was absolutely moronic to say the least. They didn't have a permit. No business license. Claimed to be a private club, when anyone could go in with 25 bucks. And to top it off, one of the participants on stage happened to be a 16-y.o. girl :duh:

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The other interesting thing in the Phoenix situation is that the ordinance passed states something to the effect that it is illegal to charge people to come in to your establishment for the purpose of having sex. So why are none of the hotel managers or owners under arrest? The Phoenix other problem in town is that there were several people having parties for a donation. There are a couple of people that have now started to threaten them if they have any more parties. So the cops are raiding the clubs, the house parties are being threatened and the people will no longer have parties. So in effect the local news channel got their way. All of this was started as the result of an "investigative report". No one cared, or even knew about the clubs, until the local news ran out of real stories and had to start creating them.

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I have been involved in the cities process from the beginning. In 1999 with great cooperation from the Scottsdale based National Community Foundation (Christians with goal to help 1000 cities across America pass anti-sex laws to "protect neighborhoods and children) proposed making swing clubs illegal in Phoneix to protect the "health and morals" of citizens. One of their other main arguments was it was prostitution and clubs create crime in their areas. Obviously that made no sense, but neither does protecting neigborhoods and children. You don't need to have arguments that make sense when your fighting on religious moral grounds it seems.

 

There were.. 5 or 6 public hearings. I was at all of them and spoke against the law change (they also made new restrictive laws for strip clubs). Club C was there very well represeneted. I think it was Club C's laywer, although not certain that even had reserached police reports and showed that if you want to fight crime, close all the Circle K stores, not the swing clubs that had very low rates of police calls.

 

About 90% of all the speakers at all the public hearings and the final "big" overflow Council meeting were AGAINST the proposed law changes. The only speakers for the law was the representitive from National Community Foundation and a few "church ladies" I remember one "little old lady" who was so upset with what was going on that she said she would move out of Phoenix if the law did not get passed since she doesn't want to live in such an immoral city that would allow these terrible clubs to operate.

 

At the final city council meeting after the last speaker was heard, their was a motion to pass the law and a "breathingtaking" fast roll call where despite all the overwheliming opposition it was UNANAMOUSLY approved on an EMERGENCY BASIS which means a dire health threat and bypassses the usual waiting period before goes into effect.

 

I have far more details of these events on libchrist.com but that is a summary of what I recall from 1999. The ONLY club in my view that has really been "in there" in the fight to protect your rights as swingers is Milo and Nancy of Club C. The worst club that just wants to run and hide and pretend there is no issue is Guys and Dolls where Robert got very upset with me for my reports since it may discourage business, even though I point out clearly no customer is at risk, only the brave club owners fighting for swingers rights to enjoy these clubs in Phoenix

 

That is how it came about. The National Community Foundation is watching the Phoenix legal fight and I'm sure there are many other cities with its help in writing the Phoenix law are waiting for the Court results in Phoenix to enact the same or modified law based on Phoenix experience in the Courts, in zillions of cities across America.

 

In my view the only practical hope of solving the problem other than hopeing for a favorable Court ruling is a referendum petition to get the issue to the voters. I use to think that was hopeless. But with the recent uproar of most about wasting police resources to fight victimless crimes (swing clubs, private sexworkers, $22,000 spent in drinks and tips at strip clubs), the public may have had enough and might actually vote to get rid of at least the swing club law but it would be a costly hard fight. At least the swing club law is only a Phoeinx issue, vs sexworkers which have both City and State laws that would have to be changed.

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Originally posted by davephx

In my view the only practical hope of solving the problem other than hoping for a favorable Court ruling is a referendum petition to get the issue to the voters. I use to think that was hopeless. But with the recent uproar of most about wasting police resources to fight victimless crimes (swing clubs, private sexworkers, $22,000 spent in drinks and tips at strip clubs), the public may have had enough and might actually vote to get rid of at least the swing club law but it would be a costly hard fight. At least the swing club law is only a Phoeinx issue, vs sexworkers which have both City and State laws that would have to be changed.

 

Dave,

 

As much as I would like to see a public referendum to address this issue in Phoenix as well as nationwide, we have to stop and ask ourselves - Who are we kidding? Something of this nature, no matter how many public citizens are behind it, will never get on a ballot, let alone passed into legislation.

 

Although I very much appreciate your comments and fortitude in trying to get swingers looked upon as the normal people that we all are, we all must know that there are only two places in the US in which supporting legislation like this is not political suicide - San Francisco and Las Vegas. No matter where else in the US one might be, being a politician and supporting any legislation supporting free sexual rights for consenting adults will be frowned upon and will get that politician nothing other than a landslide loss. I hate saying that, but I think that we all know it is true and is the case more often than not.

 

Consider this - how many times have we all heard about town meetings such as the one you referred to where the public outcry is so different from the council's point of view? Many. Then, when the council gives in and allows the referendum on the following election ballot, the referendum doesn't pass because 1) not enough people actually came out to vote, 2) those that did come out to vote weren't the same ones that were at the town meeting and, 3) even those that did come to the meeting to voice a need for a referendum voted against it when their morals were put on the line and they faced accountability. It has happened too many times to count. And it is a sad account of humanity as it clearly indicates most people... not all, but most people are all talk and no action.

 

Frankly, I have to admit that, at the moment, Liz and I fall into the category of those all talk/no action people. There is, however, a valid reason - I don't wish to have my family know that we are swingers. And in an effort to minimize our exposure, we don't get involved in the public eye. Perhaps if my parents lived out of state or were not alive, that would be a different story. But I face my family on a near daily basis and, although I call myself a swinger and feel very strongly about the freedom to express myself in a sexual manner as I see fit - when it does not break other laws such as pandering, prostitution, public lewdness, etc - I would have to be a silent partner simply because I don't wish to alienate my family.

 

Perhaps that's the biggest problem we all face - we cannot be 100% behind a movement to make swinging a choice without legal ramifications until being a swinger is accepted by the general public. And swinging will not be accepted in public until more people like me step out of the shadows and support the cause openly. We are perpetuating our own, perfect Catch-22.

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Originally posted by BiCoupleNJ

 

We are perpetuating our own, perfect Catch-22.

 

While we stand around doing nothing our rights will be taken away by people out to "protect" the community and children.

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BiCoupleNJ

 

Actually a referendum if gets enough valid signitures (I think its about 20,000 for Phoenix), in Az it HAS to go on the ballot. Just a few weeks ago, such a referendum was successful when enough signatures were raised in Los Angeles for the City to reverse the 6 foot rule for strip clubs instead of taking it to the voters.

 

In TV polls here in Phoenix, after Operation House Call, whcih was one of the biggest sting operation in the U.S. against 80 private sexworkers and clients, ran 80% calling it a waste of police resources. The usually very conservative media here has been virtuall 100% raising the issue of using police resources to go after sex in private. The swing club issue is far simplier than the overall sex in private issue.

 

I agree it will not be easy if it goes to a vote. There will be a huge anti sex campaign from both Christian and Morman leaders.

 

Regarding privacy - voting is the ultimate in privacy. No one will know you voted for or against swing clubs or sexworkers.

 

Instead of just sitting back and letter our sexual freedoms be dictated by those in control, many of us feel something needs to be done. Even a failed vote will get the issue discussed and gradally over time I think it will be more and more supported if money can be raised (not simple) to educate the public etc.

 

The only other hope is in the Courts on privacy issues.

 

I agree no way there is going to be anything favorable from Council on swing clubes or State Legislature on sexwork issue. Too much of a huge Huge Morman voting blocking at the State level and very conservative Phoenix City Council.

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Originally posted by davephx

Actually a referendum if gets enough valid signitures (I think its about 20,000 for Phoenix), in Az it HAS to go on the ballot.

...

Regarding privacy - voting is the ultimate in privacy. No one will know you voted for or against swing clubs or sexworkers.

 

Originally posted by bill&sabrina

While we stand around doing nothing our rights will be taken away by people out to "protect" the community and children.

 

Dave, you are correct and that point had not crossed my mind when I left my last message. A petition with sufficient votes will get a referendum on the ballot.

 

But I quoted your point regarding voting being the ultimate privacy for a very specific reason - you cannot get to that level of security and privacy... without opening yourself up to the public eye by signing the petition. Again, a Catch-22 that most people would avoid as the last thing they want to see is their name made public because they signed a petition supporting swingers. Despite the fundamental desire to keep the cops out of the sex business arena for most people and the desire to live a life free from harassment for swingers, when putting pen to paper, I still contend that many will find a reason to not sign. I have seen it happen before.

 

And to Bill's comment... actually to EVERYONE...

 

We can all help ourselves to a degree by voting out those that show a morally superior attitude at election time. For those individuals in office that feel a particular right isn't morally upstanding, perhaps a letter writing campaign or, better yet, a bussing campaign - gather a large group of people opposed to the right being taken from you and make every effort to go to every single town meeting. And invite the press, too, because nothing will get done if it isn't picked up by the media. Or take out a large scale ad showing your displeasure with the potential loss of a right.

 

You are correct in inferring that we should not sit idly by, but I have seen the consequences - my brother has spoken out for gay rights for years. He has received over 400 traffic tickets and had once been charged with endangering the welfare of a child, along with many other harassments, all because of his opinion and his fortitude in speaking out. He's not broken the law other than going 5-10 mph over the speed limit regularly, but that is a very common law broken by thousands of people a day. Yet the police in several areas near us focus on him quite regularly. And it is because of situations like this that most - not all, but most people would rather stay idle and not reveal their name nor their opinion in the public eye.

 

Even when I ran my swingers newsletter years ago, the post office was tracing mail coming to my business. It didn't stop me as I thought it was funny that they did that, but it was a harassment none the less.

 

I am simply stepping into the role of devil's advocate here. And, although the points of view brought forth by many people on this thread are well thought out and solidly supported, I fear the reality is, when it comes down to brass tacks, you may very well find yourself standing alone against those that play 'morality police'. It is sad, but I fear it is true.

 

Time to step down... soapbox

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To Davephx and BiCoupleNJ...I haven't contributed an iota to this thread because ya'll are talking so far beyond my range of thought, but just wanted to say...ya'll are making some excellent and enlightening points. Keep up the good work! Most enjoyable and informative reading. Thanks - EBF :)

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Went to the VELVET SWING in Van Nuys, and talked to John the proprietor.

 

He had some wild stories from 2001. A militant evangelical local church started to protest the number of cars and visitors-'appearing' at this quaint Single Family Residence in Van Nuys. This is a city, that can be great-but 5 blocks away it can be a gang war zone. But there are good people there too. There are also a few demented, sadistic and 'nosy' (not noisy) types on the street as well.

 

John's club in the past became very popular. A bit too popular. It was attracting attention. Plus, John was charging a modest donation fee at the door-which is totally illegal-and he has since stopped charging. He learned how mean the cops could be, (When they are on a "Mission".) They would kick in the front door-and throw drugs in the lobby-for entrapment. Welcome to LA. The joke was everyone kept fucking and ignored the cops (in hidden lofts etc) because REALLY this is just a private party, ok? Keyword private.

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Originally posted by MikePulse

Went to the VELVET SWING in Van Nuys, and talked to John the proprietor.

...

John was charging a modest donation fee at the door-which is totally illegal-and he has since stopped charging.

...

He learned how mean the cops could be, (When they are on a "Mission".) They would kick in the front door-and throw drugs in the lobby-for entrapment.

...

this is just a private party, ok? Keyword private.

 

Accepting donations at the door is NOT illegal. It is only construed to be illegal by authorities to further their moral pursuits. The issue with accepting a donation, as mentioned earlier in this thread, is that it can be construed as a payment for sex, which CAN result in a prostitution or pandering charge. But it is not, in it's most basic sense, illegal. My ex and I used that to our advantage - when someone that came into the club showed an interest in either me or my ex, if we were not interested, we'd simply explain it away as being considered prostitution because we took their entrance fee which, twisted in our favor, meant we would be receiving money for sex. We didn't use it often, but it was handy when we did :)

 

This issue does, however, play directly into your comment about cops - although MANY... nay MOST... cops are not corrupt, there are some out there that, as you mention, can and will do almost anything to arrest someone like your friend John. I have seen it many times in the past. And knowing that John accepted money to allow members entry, they could construe that as a payment for sexual services, no matter how outlandish and untrue that really might be.

 

Something that was odd about Hawaii - when I ran my swing club in Honolulu, the police never once bothered us. We called them several times for various reasons, one being a hit & run accident that left a club member's car totaled. Although no one was in a sexual way when the police arrived, they could plainly see that we were not your normal, mainstream club as people were milling about in slinky clothing - some even topless or nude - and they ignored it completely. I don't know why, but they did. If only all police across the US were as open-minded and acceptable of swingers like the Hawaii force was back then, we'd never be having this discussion.

 

One more comment - you said that the party was private. Privacy is one of those terms that can be interpreted in many ways by authorities when it comes to a desire to arrest someone. In fact, I'd go so far as to say there is no such thing as privacy if law enforcement is on a mission with moral underpinnings!

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As someone who works for an attorney & a soon to be law student, my experience with law enforcement (swinging or not) is that if they want to get you for something they will find loopholes to charge you with something. I'm not saying anything bad about law enforcement, there are good cops & bad cops. Although, sadly it seems that you seem to find a lot more bad ones vs. good ones. As long as there is something going on in a community, whatever it is, that is controversial there will be people trying to "take it down."

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Sorry, I forgot to add something to my last post. As to what FrenchConx said in one of posts about what to do in a raid, don't say anything & get a lawyer. That is 100% true! I work for a lawyer, & about 99% of the crap we have to clean up for someone they created themselves b/c they opened their mouths. Police will try to get you to talk & make you think that you are helping yourself, but you are not. If police make a deal with someone they get it in writing & with an attorney present. So I would say the most important thing to do if involved with a raid, NEVER SAY ANYTHING! ALWAYS ASK FOR AN ATTORNEY TO BE PRESENT.

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Originally posted by HotCoupleGnS

... the most important thing to do if involved with a raid, NEVER SAY ANYTHING! ALWAYS ASK FOR AN ATTORNEY TO BE PRESENT.

 

Very good advice, GnS. But it does certainly paint a sad picture of society that we would have to consider retaining an attorney at all for simply exercising our right to enjoy ourselves in the company of other consenting adults that have gathered for the same reasons we have. Sad indeed!

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I am a police officer and I don't understand the laws about swinging either. One Saturday night we decided to meet another couple at their home in Alabama for some adult fun. The next morning there was a story about a social that got raided not far away. During the raid there were two arrest. One for open container because a girl was in the hotel halls with an open beer. The other was a girl that had on a sheer top that exposed her nipples. The other guy and I are both cops and didn't understand the basis for the raid.

 

Most of the clubs around Atlanta are on-premise and I know of one that even hires off-duty officer for security. They also offer free membership to anyone turning in illegal drug users.

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I am a police officer and I don't understand the laws about swinging either. One Saturday night we decided to meet another couple at their home in Alabama for some adult fun. The next morning there was a story about a social that got raided not far away. During the raid there were two arrest. One for open container because a girl was in the hotel halls with an open beer. The other was a girl that had on a sheer top that exposed her nipples. The other guy and I are both cops and didn't understand the basis for the raid.

 

Most of the clubs around Atlanta are on-premise and I know of one that even hires off-duty officer for security. They also offer free membership to anyone turning in illegal drug users.

 

 

Was that Decatur a few years ago?

 

That is one thing you really have to watch out for. One of the main socials here JUST FINALLY became legal in the drinking sense. The social was held in a dry county but was BYOB. Talking to the owner he said he had actually talked to local police and they did know what was going on and basically as long as things stayed in the social hall there was nothing to worry about. But it's still a bit scary to think that as risky as the idea of swinging already is that they could end up getting raided on something as simple as alcohol.

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      Mary took a few minutes to change into what she called a ‘trolling outfit.’ As I remember, that night it was a black babydoll with a loose bodice, thong, low heels. Many men admired her legs as I checked the forty or so women, many as scantily clad as my wife. None of our regular playmates seemed to be in attendance that evening, but we had our customs, we weren’t concerned. Perhaps an hour and a half later, I sat at a table next to the dance floor, Mary was on her feet, on the parquet, moving her body, seeing if anyone would move in. A slow sequence of men approached her, danced with her. Some would take liberties such as moving their hands under her garment, feeling the small of her back, perhaps place their palm on the roundness of her ass.
       
      I’d seen this many times before, I waited for one of two reactions.
       
      The first was that she’d spin away from the man; it signified she wasn’t interested in what he had to offer.
       
      The second was that she’d get closer, I’d watch her whisper in his ear. I knew the question, “Where’s your wife?” Some of them would shake their heads, they were attending as one of the few single men the club allowed, and when they received Mary’s response, they’d move away - that’s not what we were looking for at the moment.
       
      But the man might indicate where his wife was dancing a few feet away. When this kind of thing happened, Mary would glance to me and give our special signal - she’d put one hand on the back of her head, one on her stomach. When I got the cue, I’d come out, we’d dance as a foursome.
       
      As I approached, a man grasped the elbow of a tall attractive lady who was more modestly dressed, at least for the club. There was no conversation on the dance floor, the heavy volume of music and the thumping of the bass wouldn’t allow for speech. But I could tell the woman was interested in me, the four of us paired off and I often found myself facing this vixen. It was obvious they were as interested in us as I was in them, I could tell by the way Mary was rubbing against the man that she felt the same.
       
      After a couple of songs, Mary led the way off the floor, holding his hand, leading us off into a corner away from the speakers. As we sat, the man said, “I’m Ed, this is my wife, Marilyn.”
       
      Marilyn and I softly shook hands, I believe she raised the hem of her skirt to give me a view of her upper thighs. Ed had no problem seeing Mary’s legs, or where they met - she was sitting so that the babydoll was gathered to her side, leaning forward so her globes were exposed to his view.
       
      “Do you come here often?” Ed asked.
       
      “Every few weeks,” I responded, “you?”
       
      “This is our first time here.” Mary gave him a look that asked for further info. “We’re just starting this,” he admitted.
       
      Marilyn picked it up. “We’ve only had one time with a couple of friends. We liked it, heard about this place, decided to see if we could get into more trouble.”
       
      “Trouble’s our middle name,” I joked.
       
      Our conversation continued, where do you live, what movies have you seen lately, etc. It was a screen, of course, we were all calculating if the four of us would be pleasurable bedmates. I paid my attention to Marilyn, my wife had told me numerous times not to worry about her, she can take care of herself. My hand found Marilyn’s knee, she smiled at me, encouraged me to reach a tad higher. We bent towards each other, our mouths met.
       
      Marilyn opened her lips to me, the kiss was ardent, her mouth moist. She licked at my upper lip, her hand fondled the back of my neck. Our tongues clashed, promising cupidity, mimicking what I presumed our bodies might be doing in a few scant moments.
       
      We broke for a moment, Marilyn invited, “Would you guys want to go to one of the rooms?”
       
      I, of course, was all for it, but then I heard Mary. “Uh, not right now. But thanks.”
       
      We’ve always had the guideline that if one person doesn’t want to do something, she speaks for both of us. Regretfully, I pecked at Marilyn’s lips a last time, we stood, went separate ways.
       
      “You’re not upset, are you?” Mary asked me.
       
      “Of course not, not at all. You’re not in the mood?”
       
      “Oh, I’m in the mood all right, just not with Ed.”
       
      “Something wrong with him?” I asked.
       
      “I tried to get him interested,” Mary revealed, “but his kiss was a little cold, indifferent. I put my hand on his leg, he was too busy watching you and Marilyn, he never responded. My guess is that if we went into a room, he’d be watching you two, I’m not even sure he’d get hard for me.” It was a reasonable thought, it had happened to us a couple times before. “Hope you don’t mind, bet she’d have been a firecracker.”
       
      “Maybe. But you’re a firecracker too.”
       
      We headed back to the dance floor, in search of another couple.
    • By Ntexcouple
      I have posted several stories about Dee’s and my adventures in the swinging lifestyle. Then, I lost the love of my life to a drunk driver. I never knew a hurt as bad as losing the one person that gave meaning to my very soul. The first year I was just getting by, living if you want to call it that, day to day. I would wake up, go to work, come home, and sit outside drinking and feel sorry for myself. I still had friends that Dee and I had made, and they would try to get me out from time to time, but I just felt I was the odd man out, and it was more of a pity fuck than anything else was.
       
      Sue and Don were our best friends in the lifestyle, and they tried their best, but without Dee, I just couldn’t get back into it anymore. One Saturday, I was at home setting out by the pool, drinking, and, as usual, feeling sorry for myself when Sue showed up. She walked into the backyard, took one look at me, and gave it to me with both barrels.
       
      She said that Dee was dead, and as much as we loved her, that was not going to change. She is dead, and she is gone, and the way I was living my life, I might as well be dead also. Dee loved life, and she would not want me to be living like I was. She told me it was time for me to move on and start living again. After about an hour of us talking and crying, she had to get back home. I sat there the rest of the afternoon, thinking about what she had said and how true it was. Dee would not want me moping around, just like if I had been killed in that crash; I would want her to get on with her life. I set the beer down and just thought of all the things Sue had said. I called her that night and told her she was right and it was time that I started living again. She said that they were going to go to a house party the next weekend, and they had a friend that wanted to meet me. She told me her friend had seen some pictures of me, and she would e-mail some pictures of her, and if I wanted, she would fix us up for the party. I agreed, and she sent the pictures of Nancy for me to look at.
       
      The pictures she sent were of Nancy clothed, and I know the pictures of me that Sue had were not clothed pictures but were pictures of some of the parties we had been to. So she had the advantage over me in that regard. Nancy is a good-looking woman about 7 years younger than me, 5’6"/7" tall. She had blond hair and a good-looking body, from what I saw in her swimsuit picture. I called Sue the next day and told her that I would like to meet Nancy. She gave me her phone # and said she was expecting a call from me. She also said to be at their house at 6:30 Friday night, and we would all go to the party together.
       
      I called Nancy, and we talked for about an hour just to get to know something about each other. She knew all about Dee from Sue and said she went through something like that 3 years ago. Her husband of 18 years just up and left her with twin boys to raise. She had been single a little more than a year when her sons went off to college, and she decided to start living her life for herself. She was upfront and outspoken and said that she had always liked sex, but over the years, it had become predictable and ho-hum with her husband until he left. She told me that she got into swinging with a friend from work and her husband. She found that she liked the excitement of having sex with different people, both men and women, and she was not looking for a husband, just a fuck buddy. I agreed with her and told her I was not looking for a life partner but just needed to start living again.
       
      As Friday approached, I began to get nervous about going to the party. I knew several of the couples that were going to be there because Dee and I had been with them for some time or another. Even the thought of fucking Sue, no matter how many times she and I had fucked each other, made me nervous. I stopped by Don and Sue’s house Thursday night after work and told them I did not think I could go thou with it. We were sitting at their bar, and Sue told me I was just nervous about meeting Nancy. She said that I already knew most of the couples that would be there and I just needed to relax.
       
      Sue then took my hand and told me to come with her. She walked me into the den in front of the couch and undid my pants, and pushed them down to my knees. She then told me to sit down and got on her knees in front of me. She reached into my underwear and started to stroke my dick. I could feel my dick responding to her soft touch when she said to just close my eyes and relax and enjoy. With that, she pulled my underwear down to my knees and started to lick my hard shaft and balls. When her tongue left my balls and started up my shaft, her left hand would start holding and roll my balls around oh so softly. As her tongue got to the head of my dick, her right hand would start to stroke my shaft. Her mouth opened, and she took the head of my dick in her mouth and swirled her tongue around it. I had almost forgotten how hot her mouth felt when she would suck my dick or how good she was at it. She knew just what she was doing and how to please a man with her tongue, mouth and hands.
       
      I opened my eyes to watch her head bob up and down and see my dick disappearing and reappearing from her mouth. I saw Don sitting at the bar, just watching his wife suck another man's dick. This was not the first time Don has seen his wife suck my dick, but in the past, he was with Dee or any of the other ladies in our little group. If not, he was most likely helping me with Sue, either licking her pussy or fucking her while she sucked my dick. But to watch him sitting there fully dressed while she was sucking me was a little strange and comforting at the same time. I realized just how good of friends they both were.
       
      I started to feel my climax grow deep down. I guess it had been a while, and I felt a rush of heat as I started to shoot my cum in Sue’s mouth. She sucked and stroked my shaft to get all she could out. I also forgot just how horny Sue got when she had a fresh load of cum shot in her mouth. She was humping my leg like a dog, and I could feel the heat of her pussy through both her pants and mine. As I tried to catch my breath, she looked up and asked if I was relaxed now. I told her that I was, and she said good, now go home and have a good night's sleep and they would see me at 6:30 Friday.
       
      Don started to protest that I could not come over and get his wife all hot and bothered and just leave him there alone to take care of her. Sue kissed me on the cheek and said yes, he can because he will need all his strength for when she and Nancy get a hold of me the next night.
       
      I stood up and redid my pants and told Don good luck, and as I was leaving, I heard Sue tell him to get his clothes off right now. She needed a good hard fuck.
       
      Friday came, and I arrived at Sue and Don’s house at 6:30 as planned. Nancy was not there yet, but Sue told me that we were not expected at the party until 8. Sue, Don, and I were sitting at their bar talking, and I asked where was this party we were going to and they said it was at a couple's house (Dan and Barbara) who they had met about 8 months ago. I did not know them, and I asked if they knew that I was coming, and without knowing me, were they ok with that. Sue told me that they knew and were fine with it, also that Robert and Cathy, and David and Joann would also be there, and that they all had vouched for me. Sue asked if I was still nervous, and I said yes I was.
       
      Meeting a lady for the first time, as a single, would make any man nervous, much less one you were going to a swinging house party with her as your date. Who would not be nervous? But knowing 3 couples that were going to be there helped somewhat. (Robert and Cathy were the first couple that Dee and I ever played with when we got into swinging, and David and Joann were part of the group that we got together with for about 3 years).
       
      Nancy arrived about 15 minutes later, looking stunning. She wore a low-cut gray blouse and a black skirt that stopped about halfway to her knees. Dark stockings and black high heels. She stood 5’7", about 135 lbs., and had legs to die for. Blonde hair, blue eyes, great smile, and very well-gifted up top. Her blouse was cut just right so that the mounds of her tits were showing down to the top of her nipples. She had an incredible tan line that went from a dark bronze color to almost show white ½" above her nipples. She was in her early 40’s, and I started to feel very nervous again. The four of us sat and talked until it was time to leave for the party, Sue ran and got her party bag, and we all loaded up in their SUV for the drive over. Nancy and I were going to sit in the back seat for the drive over, and as she was getting in, I saw she had on black garters that were holding up her stockings; with her low-cut blouse, I already knew she was bra-less, panty-less, well only time would tell.
       
      We arrived at the party, and I was introduced to Dan and Barbara. They are a nice-looking couple, early 40’s early 50’s, like most of the couples there. I saw that Robert and Cathy were already there, along with David and Joann. With a total of 10 couples there at the time, that made it 3 that I knew and 6 plus Nancy that I did not know. (I kept hearing Dee’s words; Mingle and meet, Mingle and meet over and over in my head).
       
      The party was going along like most house parties did, with people greeting one another, some snacks, some drinks, music, and dancing. Small groups standing around talking, a lot of flirting going on. As time went by, there were more people in different stages of undressed. A couple would be seen walking down the hall towards one of the bedrooms, more couples would be going out to enjoy the hot tub on the patio. Everyone was having a good time excluding myself. I had almost forgotten how at ease one could be and how much fun it was to be around people that thought of recreational sex the same as Dee and I did.
       
      (You see someone and you say, "I would like to fuck that person" They look at you and say, " I would like to fuck that person", and the two of you get together and fuck. Both enjoy it, and that is that. Your spouse knows about it and, most of the time, is there to enjoy it with you if not joining in. No jealousies ,no hard feelings, no fights, and most of all, no means no. But in the back of my mind, I kept thinking that I am now a single man in a couple’s lifestyle.)
       
      I was talking to a couple when I looked towards the area that had been set aside for dancing, where I saw Nancy, Joann, and Barbara all dancing together. All three had shed their blouses and were giving one hell of a sexy dance performance. I knew from what I could see from her low-cut blouse that Nancy had a nice set of tits, but to see her dancing topless they were great. They were round and firm with nipples that stood out ¾". At 43 years of age, they were more than likely bought, but real or Memorex, I did not care. I just wanted to suck on them. Her stomach was flat and firm and showed that she took care of herself at the gym. She still had her skirt on, but those long legs and that flat-toned stomach just started me to think how beautiful the meeting place must look.
       
      When the song ended, Nancy walked over to me and put her arms around my neck and kissed me. She looked me in the eyes and said, let's go. I want to have you alone first, and I had no problem with that. We walked down the hall and checked the first two bedrooms and found them occupied. The master bedroom was at the end of the hall, and when we opened the door, we saw Sue and Dan had already gotten there. We started to close the door, and Dan said to come on in. There was more than enough room on the bed; he and Sue only needed half of it.
       
      Nancy put her arms around my neck and kissed me, and whispered that she wanted me naked. At this point, she started to unbutton my shirt. I felt her firm breast pressing against my chest as I ran my hands down her sides. Her skirt had no snaps but was held up by the elastic waistband. It was just a matter of hooking my thumbs under the waistband and stretching it out a little so it would slide down her long legs. Just as I had suspected, she was panty-less. As she undid my pants, I cupped one of her tits in my hand and lowered my mouth to her nipple. My other hand found her wet hot pussy, and I started to finger fuck her with ease. Her hands had pushed my pants down to my knees, and she was stroking my swollen cock with both of her hands. I could hear her breathing getting heavier with each passing moment as I sucked her nipple and fingered her sweet wet hole. She looked me in the eye and pulled my head closer to hers for a long sexual kiss. She started slowly going down to her knees, all the while kissing my chest and stomach. When she reached my now rock-hard shaft, she cupped my balls and the base of my dick in both hands and opened her mouth to take its head into her mouth.
       
      As I stood there getting this magnificent blow-job from this woman, I looked over to the bed. Sue and Dan had moved to the sixty/nine position, and Sue was sucking his cock like she did mine the night before. Dan had his face buried between Sue’s legs, licking her sweet pussy for all its worth. He had his hands spreading it as far as he could to get his tongue in as deep as he could. I remembered just how good Sue’s pussy tasted when she would come, and she always came from a good licking. I wondered just how Nancy’s pussy would taste and did she enjoy it as much as Sue. It would not be much longer before I would find out because of the way she was sucking my dick and watching Sue and Dan, I started to unload in her mouth. My first squirt was deep inside her mouth; the second one she had pulled back but had her mouth open so that it landed in her mouth but mostly on the tongue. As she was swallowing the first two loads, the third hit her closed lips and started to run down her chin. She wiped it off with her finger and then cleaned her finger with her tongue. She stood up and looked me in the eye, and said thank you, we kissed deep and long, and then I told her it was my turn. As she landed down on the bed, I removed my shoes, socks, and pants. She was on her back naked except for her garters and stockings.
       
      I laded down beside her and started to kiss her gently on the neck; slowly, I worked my way down to her nipples, where I sucked and nibbled on each one of them. All the while, I was running my fingers in and out of her hot wet pussy. Her pussy was neatly shaved with just a puff of blond hair left above it. I have always preferred a little hair left instead of an all-shaved pussy, (I wondered if Sue had told her that and she shaved that way just for me). I was working my way down to her honey pot, and she was opening her legs for me. I normally like to work a woman by kissing, nibbling, and sucking on the inside of their legs before I dive into pussy licking. That always seemed to bring their tension up a notch, so when I did go for the gold, they were more than ready for it. With Nancy having her garters and stockings on, that kind of blocked that approach. I soon found out that she did not need that step of foreplay; I also found out that she was anything but a quiet climaxer. I had no sooner started licking, sucking, and nibbling her pussy than she started humping and screaming and cumming. She was begging me to fuck her right then, I needed a little more time to recoup from my climax before I could go on, and she didn’t seem to want to give it to me. I looked from between the legs, and I don’t know if Sue saw the whipped dog look in my eyes or if she was so turned on by Nancy's pleading for a hard fucking or what, but Sue came to my rescue once again.
       
      Sue was on top of Dan, and he was hammering away at her for all he was worth. Sue leaned over and started kissing Nancy and telling her to let it come. I was still down licking her pussy and thinking, "Let this climax run its course, and things will settle down till I recover and can produce again. With Sue's kissing and sucking Nancy's tits and Nancy sucking on Sue’s tits and a double effect. Dan announced that he was coming, and I felt myself coming back into the game. As I slid back up on Nancy to where I could enter her, Sue sat back up on Dan and started riding him hard. She was about to have her own climax and needed to concentrate on that. Just as I put the head of my dick to Nancy’s pussy she said NO, not this way; she pushed me off and got on her hands and knees and said do me from behind; I like it this way the best.
       
      I have no problem with doggie style, so I got behind her and guided the head of my dick into her pussy. I normally like to start slowly, but Nancy told me to do it hard and fast. So I jammed it into the hilt. She instantly started to rock back and forth, and it took a couple of seconds to get into her rhythm, but I got there and was on the in-stroke when she was rocking back and on the outstroke when she was going forward. Like I said before, you know when Nancy comes, everybody knows when Nancy comes, and it did not take long for her to come doggie style.
       
      After she came down from her climax, her body just went limp, and she sank onto the bed face down. Ok, I understand about fast climaxes; been there and done that a time or two myself, but this is the first time I had experienced it happening with the woman I was with. Normally it’s the man that has this happening. I lay down beside her and put my arm around he, and kissed her on her shoulder. I can hear and feel her breathing hard, but that is all the response I get. I look over and Sue is still riding Dan’s dick. I see that glazed-over look in her eyes, one that I have seen many times before, and I know that she won’t last much longer. Just then, I see Dan arch his back and drive into Sue as deep as he can go, his hands are pulling Sue down onto his shaft, and I know that he is releasing his load into her. Sue is wide-eyed and tells him Yes, give it to me, and I know from being there that she has also reached her climax. I lay there and watched her rock back and forth as Dan kept his back arched to give her as much dick as he could. I know the feeling of her pussy muscles on a dick, and I know what he is feeling at this moment. They are constricting and relaxing, constricting and relaxing as she rocks back and forth. Milking every bit of his juice out that they can. I watch as they slow down, and then Sue collapses onto Dan’s chest; she starts that silly giggle that lets you know that you did a good job.
       
      Sue rolled onto her back next to Nancy and looked at me, and asked if I was enjoying myself, and I told him yes. Dan said he needed a drink and asked if any of us wanted one. Sue wanted a margarita, Nancy wanted a glass of ice water, and I said I could use a beer. As Dan was off to get the drinks, the three of us sat up in the bed, the women sat cross-legged, and I just slid up between them and used the headboard as a backrest. I could smell the must of just fucked pussy in the air. There were two women sitting crossed-legged with their pussies open for all to see, and I still had a hard-on. Sue spoke first and said to Nancy, " Did I not tell you he was a good fuck or not" At that point, I could have crawled under the bed, except that Sue was now rubbing my hard dick. Nancy agreed and said that she can’t wait to go again. Sue said that the night was young, but Nancy would just have to wait her turn now because she was next. Thank god Dan showed up with the drinks.
       
      The four of us sat there talking and sipping our drinks. We could hear the party going on in the other part of the house with the music and the occasional orgasm from one of the partygoers or another. Sue asked if we knew where Don was, and Dan said he saw him with Joann, to which Sue said, "Well, he will be occupied for a while". All this time, Sue was stroking my hard cock, then she said that it looked like I was ready to go again, and so was she. Nancy asked her if we could all do it like they did it at the last party. Sue looked at me and then back at Nancy and said that she thought it would be all right. I must have had a questioning look on my face because Sue told me that I would defiantly like this.
       
      Sue had me sit on the side of the bed with my feet on the floor. She then turned around and straddled me backward. I felt her guide my dick into her pussy as she sat down on my lap. " As exciting as the unknown is when having sex with a new partner, it is just as exciting as being in the know and having sex with someone that you have been with before. You know just what they like, and they know what trips your button; Sue knew just what to do to trip my button." She started to rotate her hips to give my dick that just-right grinding. Feeling her slow humping up and down along with the rotation was driving me insane. About that time, I felt a tongue wrapping around my balls and work up my shaft to where I was buried into Sue’s wet box. I looked around Sue to see Nancy on her hands and knees licking not only my balls and dick but also Sue’s wet pussy, and Dan was behind Nancy just fucking away. Sue started to rotate and moan, which caused me to shove up harder; Nancy was licking and sucking faster, which made Sue moan and rotate faster. It was like a snowball rolling downhill. The more it went on, the faster it got. I don’t know what was going on with Dan, and I did not care. I know that I came harder and longer into Sue’s pussy than I can ever remember doing. I remember falling back onto the bed with Sue laying on top of me and still feeling a tongue licking the both of us, and then I heard a far-off scream that said fuck me fuck yes fuck me.
       
      Sue was pulling on my arms and telling me it was time that we rejoined the party. We walked down the hall naked and into the den. We went to the bar, and I sat down on one of the stools. Sue went and got us both a drink and stood between my legs with her arms around my neck. She asked me what I thought of Nancy, and I told her that she was definitely different than any woman that I knew. She said that there was a long story behind that and she would tell me later, but not tonight, I laid my head down between her breast, and she was holding me and rubbing the back of my head when Don came walking up to join us.
       
      Don sat down on a stool, and Sue went over and put her arms around him and asked if he was having fun; I said that he looked like he had been road hard and put up wet. To which he came back with a one-word answer. " Joann". Sue and I just laughed, and I asked if she was still a whirlwind in bed, and he said that she was a man killer if you let her.
      Sue kissed us both and said that we men better get used to the whirlwinds because they are going to rule the world someday.
       
      Note from Jay:
      I have tried to express some of my feelings, thoughts, and happenings into the stories about how I got back into swinging after Dee’s death. I know that it is not your typical swing stories that you are used to reading here. I know that I have brought up couples out of the blue for those that have not been on this site for very long. There are stories posted by " Jay and Dee" that tells how we got started in the swinging lifestyle, how we found out that Don and Sue were swingers, and stories that were milestones in Dee’s and my journey into this wonderful lifestyle.
       
      A lifestyle that I thought had ended with Dee's death. A lifestyle of freedom, pleasure, understanding, and pure joy that I thought I would never be a part of again if it were not for Sue. Some might read into these stories that I have an infatuation with Sue. That is not true. I love Sue. If you go back and read The Surprise, you will know that I have known Sue since we were in elementary school. Her older brother was my best friend until we graduated high school; now, her husband is my best friend.
       
      If it were not for Sue and Don standing by me and pulling me out of my depression, getting me back into not only the lifestyle but life itself did I meet Pam.
       
      Pam is another story all together
       
      I lost Dee in 2004, and the stories about how I got back into the swing happened in 2006. In future stories, I will try not to go back too far into the past, but sometimes my thoughts go there, to a time, a place, or a person that is so important to me that I must bring it up for the story context.
    • By Spoomonkey
      I don't remember - in detail - just what it was that was said between myself and Marilyn that convinced her to swing. I know that I didn't discover the hidden key to the floodgate. But now, as I sit here thinking of her, picturing the passion on her face as she jerks another man's cock, I am flooded with excitement about the next time. But this is a story about our first time.

      Most people are sexual caterpillars, humping through life, eating off the same leaf, and waiting to be taken as lunch by whatever bird it is that finds us delectable. Some of us evolve. I've had the pleasure of watching Mari become a truly stunning sexual creature - a truly amazing phoenix on fire. I recall the long and sometimes frustrating 'raccoon stage' from the first talk to the first play. I remember waiting like a child for Christmas - eager and smiling, hopeful and naive. And I remember watching Mari emerge.

      It was a Friday night - our second at a club. I am not sure how many expectations either of us had - we'd promised ourselves not to 'expect.' We arrived early - when the TVs had not yet flipped over to porn movies and still played the Discovery Channel. Pretzel baskets not yet out, Mari and I found a place at the liquor-less bar. Our first time at a club, we went with a couple that we were friends with. They'd monopolized us that night, and we wanted to branch out - to meet new friends - to try new things. Nothing against them, we thought the world of those two, but we were ready to fly solo. So we waited. Unsure of how to talk to anyone - unsure of what to do next. I think we clung to that bar for an hour, Mari in her brown mini and sheer black top, me in a stew of nervousness that I hadn't felt since junior high. Eyes were on Mari - I could feel that. Not at all unexpected with her long legs riding a lucky barstool, gorgeous and generous breasts threatening to pour from her low top, bright green eyes dancing between a perfect smile and brown/red hair that could melt any man. I remember watching people watching us, watching them stare shamelessly at her.

      The club filled quickly that night - couples made their way to familiar cliques as a flood of single men made helpless attempts to get in on the play. I didn't know what we were looking for, but I was hopeful that we'd find it - so I took Mari by the hand and decided to explore. The barstools were doing nothing but putting our backs to the crowd. I wasn't surprised when a clumsily discreet gaggle of singles followed my Mari like puppies as we slowly made our way from room to room. Eventually, we found ourselves on the 'party floor' with a half dozen single men who tried so very hard to look casual but were obviously hoping that their choice of clothes or hairstyle had been the perfect one - and that Mari would snatch them up before they knew what hit them. Feeling a bit ornery, I leaned back against the wall, my beer in one hand, and whispered to Mari, "I want you to go down on me." I think the request shocked her a bit.

      "Right. Right now? Right here?" I could tell that she was feeling like a bad girl - she had the look, the walk. I knew she wanted to play - and I could think of no better way than to tease a crowd of men.

      "Yes," I said, smiling. "Right here and right now." I reached down to unzip myself as she dropped to her knees in front of me. My cock had been hard all day, knowing that tonight we'd be here - chasing the 'unexpected' - and it was obvious that Mari shared my excitement as she took me all the way down with one eager move. Her tongue danced on my shaft as her head bobbed happily. Her expert hands worked on what little cock she couldn't take in, and twelve eyes on six single men ate every movement. I was - for a short time - king of the 'party floor' as the most incredible woman in the club sucked my cock in front of a half dozen. I realized that as incredible as this was - this spotlight on my wife's giftedness - it was just the first step, a cracking of the egg, so to speak - the cocoon was just starting to open. Mari gobbled me with abandon, surprisingly unashamed, wonderfully aware of nothing but her husband's eager erection and approaching release. I sipped my beer and grinned as hungry eyes locked on the back of Mari's head. I could have watched that scene all night long, but it was far too early to 'cash in my chips.' Besides - I got to take this beauty home - so I helped her to her feet as she wiped the corners of her mouth. I think I saw a blush then, but it could have been desire. Either way, it didn't slow her down. I was ready to head downstairs and leave this group to their own devices, but a conversation about something - I don't remember what - kept me in place.

      Mari was approached by a single guy, and I remember thinking that it would be good for her to flirt. So - I turned my attention to whatever meaningless banter I was sharing - and left Mari to her fun. I don't know how long I talked - but I remember turning to look at Mari and the one guy with balls enough to approach her. And was surprised to see them kissing deeply, his hand enjoying her perfect breast. I processed a momentary jealousy. Who wouldn't be jealous of a woman as beautiful as Marilyn? What man in his right mind would offer such a perfect woman to the wiles of desperate single men? The kind of man who is so secure in his soulmate's love that he knows that no one will ever touch her heart just by groping her boob. And with that, I was over it. And my wicked smile returned.

      "Do I need to go get supplies?" I asked as I walked up behind Mari.

      "Hmmm?" She asked, somewhat dreamily, obviously ready to try her first threesome.

      "Supplies. Condoms." I said, trying not to kill the moment.

      "They're downstairs." Mari looked at her new friend, David, who was obviously willing. She smiled and nodded.

      "Okay," I said. "But here are the rules while I'm gone." I have an alpha male personality when it comes to swinging - provider, protector, top dog. "Just talk. No hands - no kissing - while I'm gone." Then I looked at David. "Break a rule, I break an arm." I think he knew I meant it.

      His nervous, stuttering, "Sure," gave me the assurance I needed to head downstairs. I didn't remember the walk to the locker room being so long, but the anticipation seemed to stretch the halls and stairways. But soon, I was back with an overly optimistic fist full of condoms and a hard-on that made it hard to walk. David and Marilyn were talking innocently, leaning against the wall - but seeing me was all it took for talk to end. Mari took David's hand and led him to a private room; I pushed the door closed as we entered, waving at the five guys who looked disappointed that we weren't going to put on a show.

      David wasted little time pulling Mari's breasts free and sucking on her long nipples. His style was rough, but Mari seemed to love the feel of this stranger's tongue and gently nipping teeth. I knelt behind her, pushing her skirt around her hips, and flicked her ass with my tongue. I slipped two fingers in her dripping pussy and felt her body jerk at the anticipated intrusion. Her hips rocked against my fingers and tongue as David pulled off Mari's top and bra, spilling her breasts into his hands and waiting mouth. Mari rubbed David's cock through his slacks, eager to find out just what she'd gotten herself into. Our collective passions blurred the room as hands un-hooked, unzipped, un-buckled, and soon the only clothes left were Mari's black garter and stockings. David had taken to his knees, taking his rough style of play to Mari's tender box as Mari resumed the head we'd started in the common area - her passion making her suck even harder, with more abandon. I thrust into her mouth gently, knowing that in her current state, she couldn't focus enough to keep me from going too deep. I watched her perfect tits roll as her body rocked on David's aggressive tongue. I switched places with David, letting him enjoy Mari's mouth for the first time. Mari gave a perfect, eager head, and I knew David was in for a treat - but I wanted my time with my wife's perfect pussy. Her long lips and deep folds are the perfect play place for big boys, and my tongue traced her outer lips through the gentle maze that leads to her dripping entrance and tingling clit. I slipped my fingers inside of Mari, curling them gently to find that magical-mythical spot that always seems to make a good orgasm a screaming one, and my tongue flicked gently at her oh-so-ready clit. I looked up to see David fucking Mari's mouth - and Mari thrusting back hungrily. I heard her cock-filtered moans as I brought her to the brink of orgasm. I quickened my tongue and my inner stroking, and Mari's mouth popped off of David's shaft. Her fist pumped him purposefully, but her eyes and attention were now focused on my face, pressed against her pussy. Her hips bucked with the beginnings of her orgasm, and her moans turned to screams as she came against my tongue. Mari fucked my fingers powerfully, her pussy sucking and pulling them deeper inside, and she threw her head back into the pillow and let out a long "YES!" as a wave overcame her.

      David knelt beside her, a stunned look on his face. "That was hot." Mari laughed at his grasp of the obvious as she pulled her knees together and her legs up - but we weren't going to let her off that easily. "Be gentle," I said as David went back down, and I brought my throbbing cock to Mari's mouth. I've always loved the way that Mari says thanks for a job well done - and tonight was no exception. David's tongue brought Mari over the edge two more quick times as she sucked my cock. Her body shivered weakly as the first orgasm had taken so much out of her. She moaned around my width but never let me go until her desperation got the best of her.

      "Fuck me." She said, her voice breathy, "Fuck me, please." I took her first, as David's cock hung in Mari's face, rubbing against her cheek as she thrust her body back against me. I pushed her legs to her chest as I buried my cock deeply into her. Her heat was tremendous, her body on fire as it lived out a fantasy it was so reluctant to even admit. David watched as I took my wife hard, thrusting deeply and angling my body to hit her just right. Mari gritted her teeth as she let out a strained moan, her fourth orgasm coming as a surprise - short but powerful. I pulled out quickly, knowing that there was one other thing that Mari wanted to try before we'd be able to call this a night. I lay against the wall as Mari got to her knees. She sucked hard as David pushed into her for the first time. It was her first 'extra' cock, and she seemed to shake from head to toe. "Is he in?" I asked, wanting her to process the reality of this moment. "Mmmm-Hmmm," she groaned as he pounded her. David fucked my beautiful wife hard from behind, thrusting deeply and quickly, racing towards an orgasm that had such a gorgeous build-up. And he reached that place far too quickly.

      "Where do you want him to cum?" I asked, stroking Mari's hair. "I want to see it," she said, her tongue flicking the head of my cock. "I want him to cum all over me." David responded to her wishes, pulling out and removing his spent condom. Mari rolled over on her back, pushing her breasts together and urging him to cover them. He had no problem doing so. David's excitement was apparent as jet after jet of his hot load landed on Mari's perfect tits.

      "Oh, god, yes," she cooed as he came. David let out one last grunt as his body jerked, and one last long stream of cum dripped onto my wife. I kissed Mari - realizing that I had seen her emerge. My perfect butterfly, covered with another man's seed. David collapsed at the end of the bed as Mari and I wrapped our hearts tightly around each other. We basked in the afterglow of an incredible fantasy, unaware that, for us, the night was young. We dressed, David and Mari kissed one last time, and then we left the room for the next adventuresome group.

      We fully expected to leave soon thereafter. Instead, almost unbelievingly, the stars aligned, and we had another encounter.

      Mari went to the bar, still sexily disheveled, and started talking to a single woman that we had met earlier, helping her fend off a torrent of attention, gladly taking on some for herself. Knowing she was having fun, I left her alone while I went to the restroom.

      I normally don't strike up conversations at the urinal, but all rules have exceptions.

      "I'm not gay," I said to the guy spilling beer one stall over, "but that is a really nice shirt."

      I wouldn't have said it if I hadn't meant it. Dark blue flames on white silk. Sharp as a switchblade.

      "Thanks," He said. "My wife bought it. I don't remember where."

      "Well - it's a great-looking shirt."

      The conversation eroded as our bathroom purposes came to an end, and we awkwardly took turns with the soap dispenser. He left before my paws were dry, and as I wiped the last of the evidence on my jeans, I walked out to put what I thought would be the final hit on my wife.I was quite wrong.

      Mr Nice Shirt was in the hallway with a gorgeous blond - tall and thin, with stunning blue eyes and long legs on high heels.

      "Hey, hon." he said, "where did you get this shirt? This guy likes it."

      She told me - but hell if I remember. I was captivated by her. Where she bought the shirt went in one ear and out the other, but her, I was drinking in till I reached the bottom of the glass. It was a nice shirt - but she was significantly nicer. I watched her lips as she talked and wondered what they tasted like; I watched her chest when she paused - also wondering what it tasted like. Soon the shirt was forgotten.

      But - I found out later - they thought I was a single, which wasn't their thing - and they excused themselves. I made my dejected way back to Mari - still with her single friend - still at the center of a crowd. I walked to the center and kissed her hard, because I could, and whispered in her ear, "Are you ready to go?" She nodded and told me she needed to check her hair before she did. I wasn't the only one who watched her walk to the restroom - perfect hips massaging the inside of her brown suede skirt. I sat at the bar, watching what passed for porn on the satellite feed, and waited...And waited...And realized I wasn't enjoying the porn enough to not be worried about my wife...I wandered through the club, weaving my way between connections being made and broken - singles getting lucky or rejected - women being fondled or ignored... The witching hour had arrived, and folks were grouping off with the hopes that productive conversations weren't about to produce wilted results. And in the bathroom door, Mari had become the target of Mr Cool-Shirt and his incredible wife. They stood in a tight but respectful group, chittering like old friends... I watch Mari laugh at some witty thing and then look up to see me walking her way.

      "That's my husband," she said, maybe a bit too proudly, and the blond woman whom I'd already memorized turned and smiled - wickedly surprised if that is a workable combination. A three-way conversation in the door of the women's room became a spirited four-way as we realized that - not only was I, not a single guy, we all had much more than that in common; two pairs of soulmates on different planes of experience. Best friends who do everything together - who were about to drift upstairs...

      They had been to many clubs and had much background in the lifestyle, and as we made our way upstairs, they shared themselves in a way that makes the lifestyle so much more than sex. We drifted from room to room, listening to them talk about their "hobby" and how they survived within it. For a moment, the idea of "playing" with our new friends disappeared as these gorgeous people became so incredibly fascinating. It seemed like every line of conversation revealed more in common, more useful advice, more to like...And then she closed the door...

      "I like you guys," Kim - this gorgeous blond said, her voice going from friendly to lusty. "Let's play."

      Mari and I snapped back to reality quickly. We were in a swing club, and we were not going home anytime soon... I didn't need to look at Mari to know that she was okay with this. I'd watched her as she watched Joe's lips move when he talked. I had seen her smile when he touched her shoulder. And I had absolutely nothing to think about as Kim lay on the bed, smiling and lifting her legs to show a shaved and pantiless play area.

      "What do you say?" She asked, staring at me hypnotically.

      Nothing... There was nothing I could say. I was hers - but better yet, she was about to be mine. Joe sat on a chair in the corner of the room - thinking, I suppose, that he might watch for a while. But Mari was having none of that, straddling his lap and wrapping her tongue around his. Kim lay on her back, and I ran my hands down her legs, lifting her feet and helping her with the boots that she wasn't going to be needing for a while. Her long thin legs were, on their own, plenty to enjoy - but when the boots were shed, my hands wandered higher as I slid onto the bed with her, kissing her gently at first - enjoying her soft but expert tongue. Her hands made short work of my belt as mine found her small, tight breasts. She seemed eager to catch up with Mari, who had quickly moved to a kneel in front of Joe and was blowing him madly - her head bobbing furiously.

      I didn't object and let her push me over to my back. My eyes caught Joe's, and he smiled widely, dazed but certainly feeling every stroke of Mari's expert tongue. Mari worked his shaft with one tight fist and had pushed the blue flamed shirt up to his strong chest. She was moaning around him - and he encouraged her. The sounds were nearly as hot as the visual of my beautiful wife gobbling our new friend with such abandon. I could have lost myself watching the two of them, just experiencing the pleasure my wife was giving another man, but I was soon pulled expertly out of the moment as bright blue eyes looked up at me past short blond hair, and a wet tongue flicked between a wicked grin and eagerly tasted the tip of my cock...I looked down at Kim as she rolled her tongue around the head of my cock, seeming to savor the taste. Her eyes locked on mine, and her smile never failed......until she took me into her mouth, slowly swallowing half of me and then pulling me out just as deliberately. I groaned, body twitching and cock responding to her attentions.

      "You like that?" she asked, a trail of my excitement still leading to her lips.I just swallowed and grinned - and she correctly took that as a "yes". Her eyes finally left mine as she took me again, this time with abandon. Her tongue danced around my cock as her lips tightly massaged my shaft. Her hands jerked me and my hips rocked slightly, finding her manic rhythm. I closed my eyes and enjoyed her expertise, my fingers twisting in her short hair. I could feel her taking me deeper until it seemed the head of my cock was so deep in her that I could almost feel it with the hand that was on the back of her head. Her warmth was complimented by a perfect wetness. She stroked me with one hand as her other hand massaged my balls - coaxing my cum from them - eager for a taste of her good work. I heard a squeal and looked up just in time to see a naked Mari tossed onto the bed beside us. Joe was naked as well - his tall, thin frame sporting a desperate erection. He dropped to the bed between Mari's legs and began to kiss her breasts, one after another, commenting loudly on her large, long nipples. Kim was looking over, obviously admiring them herself. She looked up at me, her lips still around my excitement, her face flushed. I smiled at her and nodded - unable to ask her if she wanted what Mari was about to be getting... Somehow she read me and nodded back - letting me go with a gentle pop - and climbed up on the bed, shedding what little clothing she still had on. I pulled off my shirt and settled between her legs.

      The wives were now on the bed, lying side by side, with two enthusiastic husbands now heading south hungrily. Kim's pussy was perfectly shaved with small lips and a perfect clit. I licked gently at first, tasting her fully... This was the first pussy I'd tasted since my marriage, and I was going to enjoy it fully. I slipped my hands beneath her ass to lift her slightly, angling her just right... And sunk my tongue deeply into her, tasting her as she tightened around the intrusion. She whimpered slightly and bucked - and I lost myself... My fingers swam in and out of her as my tongue found every unique spot that seemed to make her jerk with electricity. Her eyes were clamped shut as I ate her, and her hands gripped my head harder and more desperately, soon governing my attentions to just her clit as she climbed higher... Closer to the edge of orgasm. I heard Mari scream as she came, thrashing her hips forcefully against Joe's face, forcing him to hang on... Kim heard her, too, and seemed to catch Mari's orgasm just as Mari was coming down... One loud "OHH!" was all she moaned as her body spasmed beneath my feasting tongue. She jerked hard, holding my face tightly to her and riding her orgasm out against my tongue. I held her thighs as she began to land. She slid her hands to my cheeks and pulled herself to me. "My god," was all she said before she kissed me and pulled me back to the bed.

      Joe was on top of Mari, thrusting his fingers into her roughly, and Kim held me as we watched Mari cum again. Mari's vocal aerobics shook the walls again as she came a second time, right on top of her first one. She seemed to cum for minutes before she finally stopped thrusting her hips against Joe's aggressive hand.

      "Wow," Kim said, looking at me. "Is she always this loud?"

      "I'd like to think so," I replied, smiling.

      "I have no doubt, then."

      Kim grinned as she kissed me, pushing me to my knees. She crawled in front of me and took me in her mouth again, egging me on to thrust. I did so - watching as Mari laid Joe on the bed and then knelt between his legs again. I grabbed Kim's perfect ass with both hands and pushed forward gently, barely containing my arousal as Mari began to stroke Joe's thick cock.I heard Kim sucking me wetly, accepting my thrusts as Joe moaned with approval as Mari gave him a masterful hand job, puckering her lips around the head of his cock as she stroked him. My head swam for ten minutes, watching my wife and feeling Joe's. I was near the edge when Joe screamed out his arrival. Kim flipped around quickly, eager to watch her husband's pleasure, and slid a hand down to cup his balls just as he erupted. His first shot a foot into the air. Mari moaned, "YESSS!" as he came - excited at the sight of his orgasm. His hips thrust slightly as the rest of his orgasm ran down his cock and over Mari's still-pumping fist.

      He lay there - satisfied - and Kim turned, grinning, back to me. The only difference is that this time - so did Mari. I had four lustful eyes looking at me hungrily, and I knew that one of my favorite fantasies was going to come true. I was pushed back into the pillow and watched as a blond and brunette devoured my cock - neither of them losing steam. One would suck my balls while the other pistoned on my hot shaft - then they'd switch - dancing their tongues up either side of me as they went... "This is a vision you'll never forget," Joe chattered - coming back to his senses. I quietly agreed with him, watching as they pleasured me - unable to drink it in enough. Just the sight was enough to make me cum... The sensation of two talented tongues, two eager mouths, brought me closer to the edge than I ever thought possible... Joe seemed to agree, now standing at the side of the bed stroking a resurrected erection. But - I was the first to see them kiss...And it was almost too much... Kim and Mari's tongues soon discovered each other and left my cock to pursue each other. I was remarkably okay with that. Kim and Mari's passionate lip lock was more than Joe could handle.

      "Oh my god," he said to Mari. "I had no idea you were into that."

      "I wasn't," Mari said truthfully - and then quickly returned to what she swears was one of the best kissers she'd ever known. I joined Joe in the perverse ritual, not caring if they ever touched me again - as long as they didn't stop touching each other. Their hands fondled each other, their tongues twisted together... And the room seemed to heat up by twenty degrees.

      I'd never thought I'd see my wife so wild for another woman, but there they were, wrapped together, making out like high school kids. The scene proved to be too much, and Joe yelled out Mari's name. Mari moved over beneath him, her tongue out and eager, just as Joe came again. If it is possible, his second orgasm seemed larger than his first, streaming into Mari's open mouth in jet after jet. And that was enough for me... I knelt over Kim and let go of her waiting tongue. She excitedly swallowed what she caught - what she didn't streamed down her cheeks as I jerked out the last of my orgasm and collapsed beside her...I remember Joe leaving and coming back with a glass of pop for all of us to share, but for the life of me, I don't remember much else. We all lay together for a while - talking again like old friends and laughing. The biggest difference this time was being able to watch breasts jiggle with every well-told joke or story.

      We exchanged e-mails, hugs, and kisses... But I wasn't offered the shirt...When we finally left - the club owner was cleaning up, barely beating the sun, which would be showing itself soon. One of the staff smiled at us and said somewhat meekly, "You guys sounded great." I suppose she's right - a perfect encounter inspires some wonderful loudness. The night was a surprise from the start - we'd done more than we'd ever expected and made friends on top of it. And it was one of those friendships that inspired me to surprise Mari with one last step in her now complete emergence.
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