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My wife and I have been together for 22 years, married 16 and have always had a good relationship. We've been in the LS for just over 4 years. Our first full swap was 3 1/2 years ago. She hit it off with the other guy great; she described him as a tomcat seeking prey. Apparently she likes a somewhat domineering male. Although I was with his wife 1 or 2 times, I really didn't feel the right chemistry, so that was it for me, with exception of some parties we had where it just worked out that I did her. He had asked my wife to call him after that first time, and they have been in in phone contact ever since, once or twice a week, which I had no problem with because my wife has always been upfront with me about all.

 

When it was known that his wife wasn't my type, he told my wife not to tell me that they had phoned each other because he didn't want me going into aol chat and telling his wife that they had been in contact. Apparently he kept things from his wife. My wife tells me everything so I said that wasn't cool at all. Nevertheless, after 1 MFM with my wife and him, I wasn't into him telling my wife to keep things from me, and him going behind his wifes back to do as he wanted. My wife was enamored with him and though I expressed my grave concern that he was cheating on his wife, I allowed my wife to get together with him on occasion, like once every few months over the past few years but still saying I didn't like him keeping this a secret from his wife, as its something I never would do.

 

Fast forward to our local club last month. We were chatting with a couple newly acquainted with us in our off premise club, and they said they knew that other couple (we didn't say anything about my wife being with that guy for the past 3 years occasionally), but the other couple says "we know them, his wife cheated on him a few years back; he found out was pissed and told the other woman and they nearly got divorced over it."

 

Well that was it. When I heard that drama, I said to my wife "that's VERY uncool, and if relative strangers are knowledgeable about their drama, you will probably become known as the other woman of a cheating spouse, and we'll be blacklisted from our local LS community."

 

So anyway, last night I said why don't we have 3 couples over Sat night because we've only gone dancing at our local club for the past month but haven't had any playtime. She said great, and that she had planned to go out on Friday night with this guy if ok with me. I said, here I am thinking about something for both of us on Sat., and she already has made plans for herself on Friday for an intimate encounter. So now I'm thinking that she really only goes along with all our playdates to keep me in the game, so I'll allow her to keep on going with this other guy. I called her out on it, and she says she just really likes him, but if I demand it's over then she'll be mopey and dissappointed, but will have to deal with it. Anyway, we talked some more and as a solution I am trying to convince her to convince this guy to get his wife in on it; I'll do his wife to take one for the team (she's actually very foxxy) for my wife to be happy and see the guy, but for her to keep on going with him while he's doing it all behind her back is just not cool with me.

 

What do you think? Thanks.

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I think you're right, Tom, and I'd stick to my guns if I were you. Since "taking one for the team" doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice in this case, I think you've struck a good compromise. Maybe if you get to know Mrs. Playmate better, it won't be an imposition at all.

 

What is it exactly that your wife likes about the guy? Have you asked her?

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Personally, I think your wife is showing you (not to mention the other woman) a huge lack of respect.

 

You've voiced you concerns and that you're not happy with her playing with this man behind his wife's back, yet...she continues to do so.

 

I would ask your wife how she'd feel if you were playing behind her back...so she'd get a feel of what the other woman could be feeling. And, I'd ask her how she would feel if you were playing with someone that she didn't want you to play with.

 

IMO...you two need to stop and re-evaluate this situation.

 

Teresa

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What is it exactly that your wife likes about the guy? Have you asked her?

 

She says she likes the way he fucks her, but I think it goes way beyond that. She has also said they talk about lots of stuff, like the breast cancer his wife is going through now.

 

I would ask your wife how she'd feel if you were playing behind her back...so she'd get a feel of what the other woman could be feeling. And, I'd ask her how she would feel if you were playing with someone that she didn't want you to play with.

 

In addition to asking her that very same question a number of times verbatim, I also said the other guy is very hypocritical because when he found out his wife was cheating on him, he went and told the other guys wife about it. Now that he's doing the cheating, should I go tell his wife? I have said to my wife many times over this, it's not swinging, it's cheating (on his part). She's enabling him to do it though, and that has all degrees of wrong written all over it.

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lizandtom said:

 

When it was known that his wife wasn't my type, he told my wife not to tell me that they had phoned each other because he didn't want me going into aol chat and telling his wife that they had been in contact. Apparently he kept things from his wife. My wife tells me everything so I said that wasn't cool at all. Nevertheless, after 1 MFM with my wife and him, I wasn't into him telling my wife to keep things from me, and him going behind his wife's back to do as he wanted. My wife was enamored with him and though I expressed my grave concern that he was cheating on his wife, I allowed my wife to get together with him on occasion, like once every few months over the past few years but still saying I didn't like him keeping this a secret from his wife, as its something I never would do.

 

...she says she just really likes him, but if I demand it's over then she'll be mopey and disappointed, but will have to deal with it.

Tom~

 

Years ago you felt things weren't going right, yet you let it continue, all because you don't want to deal with a "mopey and disappointed" wife? Well, I've got news for you, wife's get mopey now and then. When we do, you need talk to us and get things straightened out, sooner than later.

 

I think waiting so long to deal with this problem has only made things worse. But you do have to deal with it because it's not going to get better letting things slide as you have.

 

Maybe you can think about why you have postponed facing your wife more directly about the lying (by the other man to his wife) and the secrecy. Maybe you have been worried that you will discover something about your wife's need for this man that you don't want to hear. Maybe you feel telling your wife that you don't want her to play with him will cause her to leave you, or cheat on you. Maybe ending the relationship with this man will cause your swinging to end.

 

Whatever the reason(s), it's time to stand up to your wife.

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It sounds like the two of you did not establish a good set of rules when you started out a few years ago. Your swinging style seems excessively open and carefree, without much regard to your own relationship or your playmate's relationships, for that matter.

 

Assuming it is not too late, lay down some ground rules for various scenarios. You have some experience now so this should not be too difficult. To be honest, this other couple sounds like they come with a fair amount of drama attached. Is this something you really want to deal with? There are plenty of fish in the sea! :rolleyes:

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BTW, thanks for the comments and input from everyone.

 

LikeMinds321 said:
...because you don't want to deal with a "mopey and disappointed" wife? Well, I've got news for you, wife's get mopey now and then. When we do, you need talk to us and get things straightened out, sooner than later.

 

I think waiting so long to deal with this problem has only made things worse. But you do have to deal with it because it's not going to get better letting things slide as you have.

 

Maybe you can think about why you have postponed facing your wife more directly about the lying (by the other man to his wife) and the secrecy. Maybe you have been worried that you will discover something about your wife's need for this man that you don't want to hear. Maybe you feel telling your wife that you don't want her to play with him will cause her to leave you, or cheat on you. Maybe ending the relationship with this man will cause your swinging to end.

 

Whatever the reason(s), it's time to stand up to your wife.

 

Likeminds, I have expressed disapproval of the other guy's cheating each and every time. The guy is chicken shit to tell his wife because he knows she'll disapprove and say no because they're not playing together. When they come to our parties, we all have fun without issues, and all couples are full swap and easygoing. I have been very vocal to my wife though about the guy being a snake in the grass for the unauthorized get-togethers.

 

I have let it continue because I rationalize that if it makes her happy then why not as long as I'm not being deceived in anyway and our relationship is still strong (which it is; we love each other and know that WE come first). After all, we've had dozens of partners over the past 4 years in all types of situations, and I have a hall pass as well, although I have only used it maybe twice.

 

Like I said, I told her to convince him to talk to his wife and get her involved in a good way, otherwise it cannot continue. Should anything more be done iyho? Thx.

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...Assuming it is not too late, lay down some ground rules for various scenarios. You have some experience now so this should not be too difficult. To be honest, this other couple sounds like they come with a fair amount of drama attached. Is this something you really want to deal with? There are plenty of fish in the sea! :rolleyes:

 

Totally agreed, that's exactly how I feel; why not just find another that floats her boat, but thus the title of the thread explains it. IMHO we don't choose with whom we fall for, it just happens. Regarding rules, we have been a really good team thus far in view of swinging; we communicate constantly about feelings, attractions, etc etc., it's just this one issue of her "friend" cheating and not respecting his own spouse that bugs me.

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I'm a newbie here so my opinion is probably not as important as others since I don't have any real experience to talk about. However, I have dealt with my husband's emotional affair with a co-worker so I do know what you're going through.

 

If I were in your shoes, I would cut ties with this couple and move on. I know you've known them for a while, but I see lots of red flags concerning your wife and her attachment to this guy. It may be harmless now, but it just sounds like it could quickly take a turn in a bad direction.

 

It sounds like their relationship is a bit on the rocky side, and I personally wouldn't want to deal with a couple going through all that drama. Good luck to you :)

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lizandtom said:

 

I'm thinking that she really only goes along with all our playdates to keep me in the game, so I'll allow her to keep on going with this other guy....

 

Like I said, I told her to convince him to talk to his wife and get her involved in a good way, otherwise it cannot continue. Should anything more be done iyho? Thx.

Tom~

 

What you posted in #7 reiterates what you've already said, and I do understand how you have tried to convince your wife to change her view of this guy.

 

Getting this guy's wife involved doesn't seem plausible, with all you've said. As others have already pointed out, you taking one for the team would not be advisable or satisfying.

 

It's not your or your wife's place to tell this man's wife that he's cheating on her with YOUR wife. Your wife is having an affair with this woman's husband and the wife is not going to want to hear about it from you.

 

You asked me "should anything more be done?"

 

Tell your wife that you don't want her to see him anymore and ask her to stop all communication with him. Don't invite this couple to your parties. Drop them.

 

Then see what your wife does.

 

You believe your wife has fallen for this guy, you probably wonder if she is in love with him. She may be. If so, you should find out and face this head on. If your wife is keeping you in the game only so she can be allowed to have an affair with her playmate, that's not healthy swinging.

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JKlovers said:

If I were in your shoes, I would cut ties with this couple and move on. I know you've known them for a while, but I see lots of red flags concerning your wife and her attachment to this guy. It may be harmless now, but it just sounds like it could quickly take a turn in a bad direction.

 

It sounds too personal to me.. Once the guy asked your wife to keep things from you he should have lost all your trust. If there is nothing to hide, there is nothing to hide. Your wife should have keyed in on this too.. once a liar always a liar.. there are no degrees. From what I hear on a constant basis the whole premise of swinging is about trust and honesty.. lose him like a bad penny.. if your wife is sincere and not playing you, she will get over being mopey quickly because you are the most important person in her life and in her bed.

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The other posters are trying to be sensitve and politically correct to protect your feelings and not make you feel any worse than you already are. I'm going to tell it like it is to give you a reality check so you can take back your life and hopefully save your marriage.

 

This dude and your wife are a couple of pukes and are taking advantage of you and the other wife and you are being a pussy for letting them push you around and get away with their shit while you knew all along this wasn't right.

 

You have made many mistakes throughout this whole ordeal, don't try to fix it by making one more huge mistake by trying to schmooze the other wife so your wife can cheat on you more with this schlep.

 

It may be three years late in coming but you need to toss this dickhole out to the curb and tell your wife if she wants to stay married with you then she needs to sever all ties with this guy... no texts, no emails no nothing.

 

This is nothing more than a sanctioned affair and you are sanctioning it by your inaction. This is nothing but a drama bomb full of pain and destruction getting ready to go off. If you want to save your marriage you are going to have to man up, velcro your balls back on and take your marriage back.

 

First thing in the morning go to a family law lawyer and find out how to get all your assets into your name. Find out how to protect your paternal rights and start drawing up the divorce papers and get all your ducks in row and to your advantage. Once you have all your shit together then you call a "Come-to-Jesus" meeting with her and show her that you have your shit together and you mean business and give her the option of living "mopey and disappointed" without her boytoy untill you two can get some good counseling. Or she can have the boytoy while she is fighting for visitation rights of her kids while living in a van down by the river.

 

I'm being hard on you because you knew from day one that this was not a good situation and you saw all the red flags and yet you did nothing to stop it. Now that you are starting to see the shitpot that you have all created you trying to backpedal by coming up with some cock-a-may-me plan to fuck his wife so your wife can keep her affair going with this asshole. You know you've fucked up, so quit digging yourself in deeper and pull the plug on this whole ugly, messed up situation before you have a real disaster on your hands.

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She has also said they talk about lots of stuff, like the breast cancer his wife is going through now.

 

Okay, what? His wife has breast cancer, and he's tomcatting behind her back? And your wife is cool with that? I'm sorry, that is just plain wrong. Obviously they are not thinking, so you have to do it for them.

 

I have let it continue because I rationalize that if it makes her happy then why not as long as I'm not being deceived in anyway

 

You've had the opportunity to rationalize it. The other wife HAS been deceived, and that is NOT swinging.

 

One way or another, if you respect yourself and your marriage, AND their marriage, you have to put your foot down.

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PB&J is dead right on this one. (Forget my advice about taking one for the team. That was before you revealed the breast cancer.)

 

I know about breast cancer. Mrs. Alura has had two bouts with it. The second chemo treatment damaged her heart putting her into Congestive Heart Failure. She spent an entire month in intensive care and was released to hospice care with the prognosis that she would live for three days to three weeks. Due to her own gumption and survivor personality, she's still alive and quite active almost three years later.

 

Could I have cheated on her when she was living that nightmare? Hell, No! She says she couldn't have survived without my support. I don't know about that, but I can damned sure assure you that I gave every ounce of myself I could during the ordeal.

 

That low-life bastard who is fucking your wife needs to be at home with his own woman and you need not be enabling him.

 

His wife needs support. If he won't give it to her, perhaps you should.

 

And what if his wife dies? Does he already have a replacement in the wings?

 

Shit!

 

Mr. Alura

("Tell us how you really feel, Al.")

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My own opinion:

It's not about the other guy. Plain and simple, swinging is something two people do with others TOGETHER. If she is wrapped around him and you aren't getting any, it's not swinging. He's on the make and she's on the take, and you are left home to bake.

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Susan here-- What a mess! Does this other guy have an ounce of character or personal honor? Does your wife? My goodness, what a pair of self serving, self absorbed individuals.

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Yeah, out of all of this I would be most upset that my wife was showing me so much disrespect. Forget trying to get his wife involved, what I suggest is telling her that you don't want her to see him anymore and it's time for you and her to find some new playmates (or spend time with other playmates you already have). I know you have already done this, but this time don't phrase it as you asking her if she is ok with it. Tell her that you are no longer ok with the situation and you want her to stop seeing him and stop talking to him.

 

The point here isn't really to get her to stop (that is the ideal situation), the point is to gauge her reaction. If you lead the conversation, are strong and firm yet she still resists then you now know that her desire for him outweighs her respect for you as a man. Tough thing to hear and I agree with the other poster that this is likely the reason you have let this go on so long.

 

Now, even if she expresses her resistance to ending things with him it doesn't mean that you can't salvage things. It doesn't mean that you can't change her perception of you. It doesn't mean that things won't turn around. You can change things, but you need to know where you are at right now so you can understand what you need to do.

 

Let us know how it goes and what her reaction is. Remember, don't ask her to stop seeing him; tell her that you are no longer comfortable with the situation and that it's time for her to end her relationship with him. No explanation, don't make a big "we need to talk" lead in to things. While you're hanging around watching some TV or grabbing a coffee just pop it out there. No lead in, just casual but firm.

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Hey, lets back up quite a bit. iapr, our relationship isn't on the brink of disaster; we still have a great relationship, plenty of sex with each other, with others, strong home and financials, communicate on everything. I can't say it's all one sided, as I have 2 or 3 wives of play couples I chat with regularly, but I don't play alone with them, mostly because it's my choice for us to play as a couple. If I say stop with the guy, it stops.

 

We say to each other time and time again, why cheat when you can have others with your spouse knowing, and I wouldn't mind who she bangs as long as she likes him and he treats us both with respect. The other guy playing without his wifes knowledge is the sole issue that irks me, and I said "no more" last night to her until his wife says ok; only fair. Apparently the guy doesn't have balls enough to stand up to her, so thats a moot point. Ultimate threats and legal action aren't warranted here between us, because things are far from falling apart; things are still fine here with exception of this one sore point.

 

Alura, sorry the Mrs. went through such a horrible situation, but so glad that she's come out of it ok.

 

Susan, the other guy undoubtedly has no morals or character because of keeping this all a secret from his wife. I would have to defend my wife here though, because she asks my permission for each and every encounter (only like 4-5 / year max) and if I'm not ok with it, she wouldn't or won't pursue meeting up with him.

 

Slevin, good points on the gauging the reaction aspect. Yesterday when I was moody after hearing she wanted to go out Fri night with him, she forced out what was bothering me and I told her in it's entirety about the situation. I said I'd be pissy if she kept on with him, and said that she'd be pissy if I told her to stop. She said it would come down to either me being upset on this, or her. She said that we were the most important aspect here, in love, and she'd rather go through the pain in ending it.

 

She was clearly down about it early last night, but bounced back later on.

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Susan here--So, what you're saying is she likes fucking a man who is without character or personal honor and would feel emotional pain if she were to stop fucking him. Yeah, everything is great between you two, she has her head on straight, yep, you betcha...and if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon.

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LikeMinds321 said:
{snip} Maybe you have been worried that you will discover something about your wife's need for this man that you don't want to hear. Maybe you feel telling your wife that you don't want her to play with him will cause her to leave you, or cheat on you.

I think LikeMinds is right on here. Perhaps there is something to this that you don't want to face.

 

I know from experience that there are situations where we put up with things that, if we were not the ones involved, we'd say, "Hell no, I'd never put up with that". He is plainly doing something wrong, but I'm sure he's not all bad... just the parts that we on the SB are hearing about. So I'm not going to jump on your s**t for allowing your wife to play with someone who is cheating, and cheating on a sick spouse, even though it does sound vile. I know that it is easy to want to give your wife what she wants, because you don't see it as a threat to your relationship, or maybe (as above) because you are afraid to face the fear that there IS a threat to your place in the "who gets me the most hot" category.

 

But... the truth is that you have told her, your wife, that it doesn't feel right. You've told her several times. She really must be in his thrall to consider your discomfort less important than her desire for him. Does she admit that he is doing something wrong? Does she think it would be unreasonable for you to call an end to their sneaking around?

 

And, by the way, why DOES he sneak around? Has he asked his wife if he can see your wife on their own, and she said no?

 

Anyway... it seems like she has an incredible case of the hots for him, that is clouding her judgment. I've been there. It can make you do stupid things, things you wouldn't otherwise do. If you both know it's wrong and can't lead anywhere good, I hope you get her to acknowledge that she should stop seeing him. If you use a veto, that is your perfect right. She should be all right with that too, even though she will have withdrawal for a while. Good luck. Please let us know what happens.

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Hey, lets back up quite a bit. iapr, our relationship isn't on the brink of disaster; we still have a great relationship, plenty of sex with each other, with others, strong home and financials, communicate on everything. I can't say it's all one sided, as I have 2 or 3 wives of play couples I chat with regularly, but I don't play alone with them, mostly because it's my choice for us to play as a couple. If I say stop with the guy, it stops.

 

Let me address what I see as an underlying problem here. The fact that your wife chats intimately with this guy. To me that is not part of swinging. Neither Mrs. Lol nor myself talk with play partners spouses on a regular basis, common sense tells us that's just not part of this. Perhaps a poll on how many times does someone talk intimately on a regular basis with their play partners might be in order, I'd like to know if we are out of sync with the norm, although I do not think so.:confused:

 

Mr. Omg

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Susan here-- LOL OMG is quite correct. I may be physically intimate with a Swing partner, yet being intimate about my personal life or being interested in their personal life is quite unseemly to me. It would be highly inappropriate since such discussions are part of forming deep bonds. Such bonds and connections are inappropriate for a sex partner that I'm not married to.

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Tom, I gave your situation some serious thought today. I really don't think ripping you or telling you what I would do would change things. I kept thinking all day you're stuck, in a situation. I know you just want to validate everything at this point. I could point out from the beginning as you posted, the flags were a flying. But, sometimes we aren't perfect. I'll give you both that. Guess what, neither are we. I do feel this other guy is a manipulator. I think he has known from the beginning he could play you both.

 

Just wondering how you all are doing today?

 

I guess my questions may be along the lines of.

 

How do you think it went this far?

 

I know we felt an obligation to people in the lifestyle to not make waves for fear of being labeled the Drama ones or rejected at times. We had a few naive times about thinking people in the lifestyle were all good. Everything would be O.k., as long as we were accepted. I can testify not everyone in the lifestyle is of good character. For now, I place the blame on this other man. I think he uses the affair between his wife and someone els, and even her condition, to manipulate others as I have said. I can feel for you guys, I can't judge you.

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Another day, another stepping stone :) . After going out to dinner with the kids and settling down in from of the tv tonight, I asked my wife if we were good. Blankly I got, what do you mean? I repeated, are we good about what we talked about yesterday? Then added I felt badly like taking a favorite toy away, but pointed out again that I put my foot down because it was wrong on so many levels. She retorted that she was trying to put it out of her mind and bringing it up again wasn't a good thing. The most dangerous thing is what she said next though; "that was the only toy I had." That to me told chapters about the depth of it; ugg. Slevin, going behind my back has crossed my mind, but without trust we might as well not be married, imho. I pay the cell bills, so I think I'd know soon enough.

 

Fuse, to answer your question about why the guy goes behind his wife's back needs a little rewind. We played as a foursome (us 2 them 2) in the beginning, like 2 times. My wife has an enormous sex drive and this guy was upper 40's and was winding down in the lifestyle a bit, so when my wife boosted his ego he jumped all over it. Shortly thereafter he suggested a MFM ; I had no objection being new and open minded and my wife loved the idea. So in the beginning he was allowed to play as part of a MFM (his wife had her period so he had a hall pass. After that one time, I wasn't into it and said so, mostly because I didn't like the machismo attitude, and it was known that I had little chemistry with his wife. Because my wife and he had a strong attraction, she asked if they could get together and I said ok because we all knew each other well enough. I didn't know in the beginning though that he wasn't telling his wife it was just the two of them. She was under the impression, and still is, that it was a MFM. Her bout with breast cancer came about around April of this year, so he was solely at her side for a few months and not straying, to his credit. When my wife hadn't heard from him in a few months, she got all kinds of depressed that he wasn't interested anymore. I actually found out through mutual friends about the cancer and told my wife about it so she wouldn't be as bummed. I probably shouldn't have said a word, but hindsight is always crystal clear.

 

The other wife had cheated a number of years ago on this guy for over a year, and when this guy found out he told the other wife and the third couple almost got divorced over it; she was crushed. So again, what irks me and the reason I am putting a stop to it all is because this guy didn't like being cheated on so much, wtf gives him the right to do it now? Revenge?

 

Susan, you and LOL are absolutely right in the realm of "lets keep swing stuff, well, swing stuff" and not cross the line, but I'm not being so hardlined because neither I nor my wife believes in not being able to work issues out between us. The lifestyle is many things to many people but the main premise is to fulfill fantasies without deceit and as long as everyone is comfortable. I was relatively comfortable. Now that we've heard about other cheating stories about this couple from years past in the last few weeks, I am now not comfortable, so made it abundantly clear, so that's why it's being stopped now and not earlier.

 

FunD's, thanks for the concern. It's appreciated. We are two well educated, rational business minded parents who have our sights on the bigger picture; family, home, education. The lifestyle is just a natural extension of who we are, with this one issue. I don't feel stuck; I feel that I have my worth in the lifestyle equally; with 3 women who had never had an O in a number of years in the lifestyle, I was able to deliver, so I know I have at least a few fans which is good for the esteem ;)

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I think the lifestyle needs to NOT be a part of your marriage until you two have gone to counseling and worked this out.

 

Your wife was extrodinarily disrespectful to you and damaged that trust you need to be swingers.

 

Get out of the life, get it together.

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lizandtom said:
Quote
Another day, another stepping stone :) . After going out to dinner with the kids and settling down in from of the tv tonight, I asked my wife if we were good. Blankly I got, what do you mean? I repeated, are we good about what we talked about yesterday? Then added I felt badly like taking a favorite toy away, but pointed out again that I put my foot down because it was wrong on so many levels. She retorted that she was trying to put it out of her mind and bringing it up again wasn't a good thing. The most dangerous thing is what she said next though; "that was the only toy I had." That to me told chapters about the depth of it; ugg. Slevin, going behind my back has crossed my mind, but without trust we might as well not be married, imho. I pay the cell bills, so I think I'd know soon enough.

 

Quote
FunD's, thanks for the concern. It's appreciated. We are two well educated, rational business minded parents who have our sights on the bigger picture; family, home, edukatiun. The lifestyle is just a natural extension of who we are, with this one issue. I don't feel stuck; I feel that I have my worth in the lifestyle equally; with 3 women who had never had an O in a number of years in the lifestyle, I was able to deliver, so I know I have at least a few fans which is good for the esteem

 

Personally If Mrs.fun said what your wife said, I would drop it until she wanted to talk. It sounds to me like she is saying " not now" at least. Our experience is a little different than yours. I know I wanted to keep a swinging relationship going once when Mrs.fun wanted to end things with a particular couple. We had a year of getting together. I was actually blind to the facts my wife was pointing out. The thing is we stopped seeing them. Mrs.fun was right on just like you. It took some time, I didn't want to give them up. Honestly the female half had manipulated me. I just couldn't see it. I did stop the relationship. It was over and had to do allot of ignoring on my part. Mrs.fun stuck to her guns ( and was right) about us not needing the potential drama. Did it cause some mistrust ? sure did. I can see why. They weren't being honest. With each other, us , and everyone els. After we stopped seeing them. Sure enough the cheating behind each others back kept on going. Not with us, but others. Cheating usually comes to light one way or another. We were lucky to have gotten out when we did. Its a shame but its not a perfect world. There are so many good playpartners out there. I think you just found someone who should sort out and take care of themselves, for now.

 

That's kind of why I felt I couldn't judge. I know from personal experience its not so easy to just break things off sometimes. I felt a bit stuck between a rock and a hard place. Keeping this about Mrs.fun and I, between ourselves(swinging). Has paid off more than once. Cruel maybe, but its what is best for us.

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Let her be Mopey and Disappointed . As she has said we come 1st she will soon get over him.

 

Go back to your original intentions where you are the only favorite toy.

 

Always remember to put the friends toys away before going home.

 

This appears to have got too personal and intimate between your wife and him.

 

You know the answer

 

All the best instituting it.

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Wow, tough situation. I'm not going to judge any of the players at all, as I have no right to judge anyone else. I will say that it's easy for us human beings to fool ourselves sometimes, there's not a perfect person on the planet. I totally understand you wanting to give your wife happiness and being willing to "bend the rules" to let that happen. I can understand that perhaps at some level this play might be a bit of a "grudge fuck" for him. I can understand that your wife might feel like maybe it's OK since his wife cheated on him. I can certainly understand that the perceived deceit really bothers you, it would bother me too. You come across as a very sensitive and giving fellow, and I'm sure your wife realizes this.

 

Question: Do you know for certain that his wife does not know about this one-on-one play? Is it possible that he and his wife have worked out some sort of agreement that you don't know about that makes it "ok" for him to play alone with your wife? Who knows, maybe his wife has told him "I cheated on you, and I'll allow you the same privilege to make things fair and even." Who knows if you haven't asked this question? It sounds like you may not know their position with absolute certainty...I'd back up a bit and just validate your assumptions. I know from myself that I make all sorts of wrong assumptions all the time!

 

Here's a thought: Assuming the answer above is "no they don't", would your wife be willing to tell him that he has to come clean with his wife or stop seeing her? That puts the choice in his court.

 

I'd say the thing to focus on is you and your wife. For him and his wife, whatever they choose to do (whether it's "good" or "bad" by anyone else's terms) is their choice, not yours. The way I see it, YOU are not responsible for HIS (and his wife's) decisions. Focus on what you think is best for YOU and YOUR WIFE. Turn the situation around...if you were in this spot instead of her, what would you want her to do for you? Would you want her to allow it, or would you want her to tell you to stop?

 

The thing that bothers me most about this is that it seems to be hurting your trust for your wife. Shouldn't anything swinging-related have the opposite effect? Based on a couple posts, you've said that you have wondered if she would go behind your back. That to me seems to be the biggest red flag of all. All of it should be about you both at least in some sense.

 

My wife has played alone with a cyber-BF with my blessing. She had a good time, and wants to do it again, and I've said OK. I'm still looking for my first encounter, but I realize it'll take a while because I'm picky. The freedom that I've given my wife is being returned by her in that not only is she giving me the same freedom, but she realizes it's more difficult for a man to make a connection and she's actively helping me do that (I didn't need to help her!). I made a choice to ask a close female friend if she wanted to join me for an encounter...she's married but I also know for a fact that she's just not a cheater, so I completely trust her enough to either structure it in a way that's completely fair to her hubby if she said "yes", or I know she'll just say "no". (She'd need to tell me the terms of course, but once she did, I wouldn't question whether she's lying or not...she's just not a liar. In my case, I think the odds that he's cheated on her are pretty good...I know for a fact that he's engaged in some play without her and without her permission, so I'm sure she'd at least be letting him know "it's her turn" if not asking for "permission". I don't think I'd trust any other person this much with the exception of my wife, but I do trust this woman enough to feel comfortable with what she tells me. I haven't gotten an "official" answer back from her, but I expect it to be "no, I can't". Even though he's engaged in some play and she hasn't, she still seems to make the choices that she thinks are best for her relationship rather than for herself personally.) Sometimes there are gray areas where it's really hard to decide what is actually "right", and I can certainly empathize with you that you're in one of them.

 

Hang in there. You obviously love your wife...just make sure she knows that and that you've let this go on because you want her to be happy, but that you feel like it's time to either put this chapter behind you or "clean it up" such that it's all acceptable.

 

Good luck,

Loki

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One other thing I should say. You feel like you and your wife have a very good relationship, and that's good. This may be a test of that, so don't be afraid to do what YOU feel is right. It doesn't sound like she would, but if she dumped you to run off with him, would you really want her to stay with you anyway? I wouldn't. If she's capable of making what sounds like such a really bad decision, you probably don't need her!

 

My point here is don't try to "control" what she does...human beings tend to resist that, I think. Instead tell her how you FEEL and what you WANT, and give her the opportunity to make the right decisions. So, maybe don't mandate that she "stop seeing him"...ask her if you can both come up with a solution that makes it fair and honest for everyone concerned, one of the options being that she stop seeing him.

 

Loki

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lizandtom said:
Alura, sorry the Mrs. went through such a horrible situation, but so glad that she's come out of it ok.

 

Thanks, Tom. I apologize for the vehemence of my post. I tend to get emotional when it comes to "for better or for worse."

 

I wish I could remember the exact percentage, but a shocking number of men seek divorce after their wives have a mastectomy.

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I wish I could remember the exact percentage, but a shocking number of men seek divorce after their wives have a mastectomy.

 

Really? Boy, that sure suggests that many men are married to their wives only because they are physically attractive rather than because they love them as a person, doesn't it? If they loved them as a person, then a mastectomy not only wouldn't matter, they'd be drawing closer to help them adapt to life after a mastectomy. I guess human beings (including myself sometimes) just don't surprise me anymore.

 

Loki

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Wow. I can't imagine divorcing my wife because she was sick. It just wouldn't happen, I'd be there with her every step of the way. But then, I grew up mostly around women, so I guess I'm just a "girlie-man".

 

Loki

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Same here Loki and Alura ; I'm in the 'till death do us part camp. Interesting article, but doesn't come as a surprise to me. I share the opinion that most guys haven't experienced the ultimate domestic responsibilities to stick it out, and especially having a terminally ill relative to care for. In addition to running my 3 businesses from a home office, I've been the primary caregiver for our two kids for about 6 years when my wife wanted to go back to work and I can attest it's all encompassing.

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I have to echo those that think its pretty horrible that this guy is already worrying about his own libido when his wife was diagnosed with cancer just six months ago. OK sure, he "stuck by her for a few months" and maybe now she is in remission, but my goodness... The experience I have had with loved ones who have had cancer hasnt been that the second they seem like they'll survive Im back focusing entirely on myself! This guy sounds like a real asshole, to be honest.

 

That said, what do you think your wife meant by "he's my only toy"? Thats a very odd comment considering your situation (multiple playmates, long time in lifestyle, great sex together)

 

I hate to throw a dark cloud over you, but I'd really be on the lookout if I were in your shoes. I also think that a total pause from the lifestyle while you examine exactly what the heck went wrong here might be in order. I would give her some space for now and not press, but I would also just quietly stop all activity in the meantime.

 

I know that you feel comfortable that the only problem here is that the other guy is hiding something from his wife, but from the outside based on what you've revealed, it looks like there is more going on than just that.

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lizandtom said:
If I say stop with the guy, it stops.

 

Susan, the other guy undoubtedly has no morals or character because of keeping this all a secret from his wife. I would have to defend my wife here though, because she asks my permission for each and every encounter (only like 4-5 / year max) and if I'm not ok with it, she wouldn't or won't pursue meeting up with him.

 

She was clearly down about it early last night, but bounced back later on.

 

I probably spouted off enough last time and got my point across so I'll tone it down quite a bit and be a bit more rational this time.

 

I am quoting these statements above because I really question their accuracy. First off if this guy has no morals or character, what does that make your wife? What does that make you for turning the other way?

 

I agree with the others that have said this is not swinging, this is adultery only in this case you call yourselves swingers and you support it.

 

Now as far as you saying that she asks for permission to see him. Umm, haven't you stated a couple times that you don't like her seeing him and don't like their arrangement? Has she pouted and threatened to be "mopey and disappointed" and then hooked up with him anyway?

 

Asking permission and then doing what you want regardless of the answer is not truly asking permission. It is just paying lip service.

 

She may have been down initially when you talked you talked to her but my fear would be that the reason she "bounced back" later on is she realized that the pattern has already been set and she will see him when she wants anyway.

 

Watch your back Jack.

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Tom, a little late to jump in, but I have a life experience that is not dissimilar from the one you are involved in and sharing with all of us “experts” here! ?

 

I’ve attempted to post this story previously, but had Julie delete it… just a bit too personal it seemed. Let me try to share enough now which might help you to see this from another perspective. First off, I am happier with Mrs Co and our relationship than at any time previously in my 33 years of married life. During my marriage, like you and Liz, I was totally committed to our relationship and we to each other (or so I thought).

 

DW was interested in finding a fm for another FMF encounter. We had been with several couples by then and had only one previous FMF experience. We found her, she was married and had a hall pass from her out-of-the-country (ootc) spouse to play. We did. We did a few times, it was great fun for everyone.

 

Upon our ootc's return, our play evolved into foursomes. We played together a few times. It became apparent that fm and I were not evolving in our play, where it was fun for either of us any longer. So we stopped. We did have a few MFM encounters after that with ootc. We all had a great time. A real gentleman and performer.

 

DW and I always had the fantasy about a hotwife date. She would share everything with me, upon her return. We would share the set-up, but not the encounter. She would return to me, with the story and some extended eroticism. It happened. Many times more difficult during the time of their encounter on me than I would have suspected. Not like I didn’t know exactly what they would be doing! When she returned, the story was exceptionally erotic to hear, and it had the desired effect upon our own sexual play.

 

We played with several other couples after this. Some many, many times together. However unbeknown to me DW and the ootc not only kept in contact, they kept up their encounters. I was now out of the loop!

 

I had an extended out of town assignment lasting for 4 weeks. DW even came for a conjugal visit mid-way through. Upon my return, DW informed me that I was about to become single, as she was getting a divorce. WOW! It dropped on me like a bunker-buster in Iraq!

 

Well, as things turned out, we did indeed get the big “D” and DW and ootc got married soon after. Our story did not end there. DW and ootc didn’t make it. They divorced within a year. DW came back. I was still very much in love with my Bride of 27 years.

 

We did not make it. This attempt lasted almost a year. We parted as two people no longer in love. Peaceful at last, for me.

 

So, my 33 years of marriage… well the first 27 ended as told here... my last 6 years have been with Mrs Co, we met a year after DW and I had parted ways. And I’ve never been happier in a relationship.

 

Regardless of how this plays out for you and Liz you can find yourself being a very, very happy man and husband!

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Co, that's a good ending (or good new beginning) for you; glad it worked out. Sounds like maybe that's not the case for DW but not your problem.

 

After reading and incorporating all the comments and advice from everyone who posted, I reiterated to Liz on Friday night that I didn't want her having any contact with the other guy anymore. The main reason was because of their issues and my feeling like this other guy can go out there, and against the laws of swinging , get some without the blessing of his spouse, and cop out of the open communication and effort all of us other lifestyle guys put into our relationships. I also reiterated that in swinging, if it becomes uncomfortable for anyone, you stop. She didn't. She did say that she was majorly dissappointed that she's had something for the past 3 years and now it's being taken away from her and she has no control over it at all.

 

She flipped. My saying it again must have sunk in because we got into a huge MAJOR fight over it to the point that we hardly spoke until Sunday morning.

 

BUT we opened the chat again. This is where I have to reiterate again, especially to you Edison Susan, that our relationship really is one of endurance and strength. I told her early Sunday morning that if it meant that much to her, go ahead and see whoever she wanted; it's better than the alternative of having a shell of a wife.

 

She calmly explained that she was upset that her power was all of a sudden taken away from her and not the dissappointment of not seeing the other guy again. She was relieved that although I restored her power to choose what she will do, she can respect my discomfort about this whole situation and refrain.

 

This is completely on the level. Before we were married, I would not marry her unless she quit smoking due to the health hazzard and the fact that she would eventually be a mother. She did quit but I found a pack of cigarettes within a year of marriage and tore them up. She freaked when I did that because she wanted the butts there so she could choose NOT to smoke them and when I tore them up, I took away her power to just say no. If nothing else, she is honest, whether it would appear that way or not. I do know her better than myself.

 

To summarize, we have discussed not only that particular issue with the other guy, but are back into the swing of things. We both truly do enjoy swinging; the flirtation, the appeal of attention from others, giving attention to others which appeal to us and befriending others even though we may not have chemistry with, and getting downright naked and open with those that we do. Neither of us have had any issue with jealousy, just this moral issue on my part.

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Susan here: Power ? So, she kept old cigarettes around so she had the 'power' not to smoke them ? And, she wants to keep this guy around so she has the 'power' not to fuck him ? Yep, you two are fine, yep , you betcha.

 

By the way, what exactly did she have with this guy over the last three years that's worth keeping since she knows he is not a man of any character. By the way, it's not a moral issue on YOUR part, it is a moral issue, period.

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I'm glad you're feeling better about the situation. I'm still concerned for you though. She shouldn't be worried about power, she should be worried about her relationship with you and how you both feel. If I told my wife I wasn't comfortable with her seeing someone (or with anything we were doing) she would instantly stop what was going on. No questions asked, no sulking and no bullshit about power. The fact that your wife didn't respect you enough to stop when it was brought up the first time tells me she doesn't respect you or your relationship as much as you think she does.

 

The fact that you told her she could see this guy if she wanted tells me that she will now feel justified in sneaking around behind your back. I will put money on her fucking him and not telling you, then when caught claiming you said it was ok.

 

Unfortunately, not the first time I've seen crazy shit like that happen. Keep vigilant.

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Tom, I just wanted to say that you sound like a really nice guy with a great heart. You're obviously trying hard to give your wife what she wants but struggling with the morality of the choices. I hope this all works out the best for both of you. If your wife has a heart as good as yours, I think she'll honor your request.

 

I can kinda understand the "power" thing...my wife detests feeling like there is any kind of control being exerted on her and she'll reactively resist something if I appear to "demand" it. She'll come around later after she's gotten past the reaction and thought it over, but her initial reaction is to resist...it's just the way she is. People are people, ya know? We all have our flaws and react certain ways based on our wiring.

 

We all have complexities that are deeper than meet the eye. It sounds to me like this guy, for whatever reason, gives her a big self-esteem boost. I can understand her wanting to hang onto that. And it very well might be the self-esteem boost moreso than the person. If that's the case, I'd say it's just a matter of finding another person who has a similar effect but is in a more acceptable situation (although I realize that may not be an easy task). I do think however that if you give her permission (as it sounds like you have), that she will probably feel OK to continue. I think you probably need to think on this and be clear with her on exactly whether she has your permission or not. As I've been told by the folks here, you are the "gate-keeper" in this case.

 

You guys sound a bit like my wife and I...when we're troubled about something or arguing, we'll tell each other "no", but then later both of us have thought it over and usually give in to what the other wants or needs, after we see that it's important to each other. I'd say just make sure she understands that it'll hurt you and hurt your relationship if she sees the guy again, don't water it down but gently make it unmistakably clear that it's not what you want her to do...if her heart is in the right place, she will choose not to if she knows it will hurt you.

 

Loki

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Tom,

 

You are really wrapping yourself around this issue so tightly that some perspective from a distance may help you to see what is going on. Am I correct that Liz's male friend has NOT told his spouse about their play? If that is true, you are sitting on a time bomb. It is not a matter "if" it will explode, only a matter of "when." SHE will eventually discover their AFFAIR. Did you catch that word? AFFAIR They are NOT swingers. They are not Lifestylers. THEY are involved in an AFFAIR. THEY are cheating! Perhaps not YOU, but certainly the other male's spouse. Do you understand this can not work in the long run? It really isn't an "if" situation only a "when" situation when this whole thing blows up on ALL of you!

 

Did anyone say "duck?"

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I agree; this is a big problem waiting to happen.

 

Tangentially, though, I know someone who quit smoking a few months ago, and keeps a pack of cigarettes around just like an earlier post described. It makes absolutely no sense to me...I don't see how it is possible, to be honest. But the guy has no reason to lie to me (I'd play with him either way), and his wife is no dummy. So he has the benefit of the doubt. --- End of tangent ---

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Cocpl, no kidding. That is why I wanted it over a long time ago; I don't need a pissed spouse coming after us with a butchers knife. Over the past few days, my wife has repeatedly referred to her actions as totally unfair to me that she didn't stop a long time ago when sensing I was uncomfortable with the situation. Personally I didn't care she was with that guy, only that the guys wife didn't know, and she's really nice; I didn't think it was fair to her.

 

So far, the psychological approach has worked as planned. I tell my wife I'm uncomfortable with the situation, and that in swinging if ANYONE IS UNCOMFORTABLE FOR ANY REASON, ITS SUPPOSED TO STOP, but she's a big girl, and can choose to go on with him or not.

 

In the cigarette analogy, I have said I really want for you to decide for yourself to quit smoking. In this situation I have said I really want her to decide not to see him anymore, but she's a big girl so do what she's got to do. We have spent a lot of time the past week together and she has said repeatedly that she's been wrong over the past two years for seeing the guy.

 

If she feels she's sworn off him out of her own volition, that's the best of both worlds, and mission accomplished. Though many cynical on here wouldn't believe it, she would never go behind my back, so it's never been an issue of trust between us.

 

Psychology's great when applied correctly :)

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    • By spicylife42
      The hubs and I were very active in the lifestyle for several years.  We had a great time, we had lax rules where we were ok with each other playing solo.  I traveled with him on business and had a particular lover I was completely head over heals for.  The sex was like no other, he felt it too.  Fast forward many years, we’re out of the lifestyle. He became an alcoholic and our marriage imploded.  During all of this, we had split briefly. He came back but I let him know that I didn’t have feelings for him anymore.  We could try to coexist, for the family.  We have lived this way for 6/7 years.  Last fall T, reached out to me and I went to see him.  It was electric, as it always is.

      Well I was planning to see him again, and I was going to tell the hubs b4 I left, that I was going to see T.  Explosion!  He had suspected since last fall, how can he ever believe me again, oh yeah sure I was going to tell him... yada yada.  Hubs says well if this is the way we are going to spend the rest of our marriage we might as well get a divorce.

      He’s the one that drug me kicking and screaming into the lifestyle, we allowed each other freedoms.  I’m heartbroken and mad! 
    • By JW6145
      I’ve been lurking a while and read a ton here the boards. Now I’ve gotten myself into a situation that is not talked about very much on here. I’ve fallen in love with a playmate. I really didn’t mean for it to happen, and from what she tells me she didn’t mean for it to happen either. Let me start by saying I’ve been completely open and 100% honest with my wife, and my playmate Becca tells me that she has been mostly open with her husband. We’ll get to that in a bit.
       
      Becca and I met at a club, just a few months ago. From the first I thought she was attractive, I mean let’s face it, we’re here to fuck attractive people, right? My wife, Angie, and I went to the club that night to have some fun. We’re experienced swingers-we don’t play alot, swinging does not rule our lives- but we’ve had our share of fun. The night I met Becca was no different; we hoped to meet some fun people, have some good to great sex, and maybe make some friends we could hang out with on a regular basis.
       
      Becca and I both realized pretty quickly that there is a strong physical attraction between the two of us. The sex is effortless and I’ve never fit together with anyone better. After that first night of being together, my wife Angie and Becca’s husband Rob exchanged numbers. Becca asked for my number but I declined, telling her she could just text Angie if she wanted. I don’t normally like to have communication with the women I play with outside of swinging situations. I was not able to get Becca out of my head for the next several days- which is unusual for me. I threw caution to the wind sent her my number via SLS. She texted me a few hours later. Over the next several days we exchanged texts and even spoke on the phone a few times. All with Angie’s knowledge.
       
      We all four got together again a few weeks later-and it was even better than the first time. It was that night that I recognized that I had developed emotional feelings for Becca, and I was pretty sure that she had developed similar feelings for me.
       
      A few days after we were all together the second time I told my wife about my feelings for Becca. I told her I didn’t know if I was getting our sexual chemistry mixed up with emotion but I thought that could be the case. To my surprise Angie did not freak out. She told me she suspected something was up-given the amount of communication between Becca and I. I took a few weeks to sort out my feelings and spent many more hours talking to both Angie and Becca. I realized that I was probably in love with Becca. And I told them both so. Becca told me she feels the same way. This is not the “oh, I’ve just fucked someone new, I hope they like me best” kind of feeling. We’ve both been with other people since we met and it has not cooled our emotions. This is raw, real and deep.
       
      When I told Angie all of this she gave me license to pursue a relationship with Becca and follow it wherever it may lead. I did not ask for this, Angie offered it to me. Angie is secure about our commitment to each other-I am not leaving my wife and Becca and Angie both know that. Becca also has no intention of leaving her husband.
       
      Becca has talked with her husband Rob about us and the feelings we’ve developed for each other. What she has not told him is that she thinks loves me, she does not know how he would react to that (here is the mostly open part that I alluded to in the first paragraph). She has told him our feelings are deep but has not gone into how much we care for each other. Rob is completely comfortable with texts and calls throughout the day, but not with Becca and I meeting without him and Angie there-even for lunch or dinner. I completely understand and respect this. I don’t like it, but I respect it. I suspect if the shoe were on the other foot I would feel the same way. I really genuinely like Rob by the way, he treats both Becca and Angie really well-and he and Angie have really great sex together. Angie has told Rob that it’s just sex between the two of them and Rob feels the same way. They have no other feelings for each other past that.
       
      Becca and I text every day and talk several times a week; I know about her life and children, and she knows about mine. We have similar interests and lives outside of swinging, we are in similar businesses. We have become emotional rocks for each other. I get emotional needs met from her that I do not get from Angie. Again, I have been upfront with Angie about all this and she is fine with it.
       
      So here are my big questions: Do these things really ever work, or are we on the express train to Dramaville?
       
      Is it possible to keep something like this going long term?
       
      How do we navigate the fact that Rob is not comfortable with Becca and I meeting without him around (again, we will not be going against his wishes on this one) and knowing that he and Angie will want to have more variety in their swinging soon, which will leave less opportunity for Becca and I to be together?
       
      Any thoughts from the wise sages on here are welcome. I’m a big boy-if I’ve being naïve about anything please tell me. I can take it.
    • By Bluespruce1
      We have been playing with a couple for about five years on and off. We see them at our club, at some resorts and at local house parties. Wherever we are, she always seeks out my husband. We have all been together many times and I enjoy her husband very much, but for my husband and I, it’s literally just sex.
       
      She is very different with my husband lately than with her other partners. I believe she has fallen for him. When I see them together, she is very passionate and attentive to him in ways that I don’t see when she’s with other men. My husband rolls with it and is always a pleaser.
       
      We don’t want to make things uncomfortable or lose their friendship, but we are getting uncomfortable with the notion that she may be interested in a deeper relationship than we have experienced with other partners.
       
      Should we just go with it? I’m not sure I can handle sharing him that way and I don’t think he’s interested in that type of relationship either. Thoughts about when the sex leads to something more?
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