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  1. Back To Top | #51

    Default

    Originally posted by Flori_DAMAN
    You have addressed many issues Dean.

    Welcome aboard. One thing that I will suggest though. People that have no interest in meeting a single guy never will. It is not the guy, it is just that they don't prefer one. That is OK cuz some couples seek them.
    Don't focus on trying to convince couples that "if they only met the right one" cuz it doesn't matter. They are not interested and they have every right not to be.
    But as a single swinger you seem to have lots of consideration for the lifestyle and respect for people that you may run into, obviously many, so keep going at it.

    John.
    I will say one thing, John. Because of our first experience we have been reluctant to try another single guy, although finding another man for J to play with is our primary motivation. But, you, ATAK, curious24 and other single males here (I'm sorry if I missed somebody!) have made us start to consider looking through that pile of "dimes" again. Thanks.

    -B
    "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." - Mark Twain
    All about us...

  2. Back To Top | #52

    Default

    Originally posted by BradAndJanet
    I will say one thing, John. Because of our first experience we have been reluctant to try another single guy, although finding another man for J to play with is our primary motivation. But, you, ATAK, curious24 and other single males here (I'm sorry if I missed somebody!) have made us start to consider looking through that pile of "dimes" again. Thanks.

    -B
    wow.. i'm honored to be in that list.. quite surprsing to me! so thanks!

    just keep your finger on that "block email" button.. hehe

    good luck!

  3. Back To Top | #53

    Default Dime a Dozen

    I think couples should be candid and tell the single guys what they actually like and dislike about the approaches. I have some suggestions if any singles care to hear. I was single not long ago then got married and became Hot2trot. Let me know guys if you are interested. If not I will keep my opinions to myself.
    Lets Cowboy Up

  4. Back To Top | #54

    Default dime a dozen

    Sorry about my post earlier if anyone thought I was trying to encourage ANYONE to meeting a single guy if that's not their desire. I was talking to those people who ARE looking to meet single males. I don't like when people insist I must do anything, so to finalize my thoughts on this I shall again say. Sorry if anyone gleaned that from my earlier post. As far as anyone who wishes to chat and heck who knows what will come of it, I am open to start a dialogue. I'ved enjoyed reading the comments and I thank all those that write for sharing. I know, I know, sounds a bit wimpy but it gives me comfort knowing there is a whole world of people with a similar lifestyle.
    Dean
    FYI- ATAK- Congrats on the I before E rule proficiency. Self - deprecating humor is an endearing quality.

  5. Back To Top | #55

    Default

    Originally posted by BradAndJanet
    I will say one thing, John. Because of our first experience we have been reluctant to try another single guy, although finding another man for J to play with is our primary motivation. But, you, ATAK, curious24 and other single males here (I'm sorry if I missed somebody!) have made us start to consider looking through that pile of "dimes" again. Thanks.

    -B
    It is 80 degrees here now.

    sublimely John

  6. Back To Top | #56

    Default Re: dime a dozen

    Originally posted by jamesdean
    Sorry about my post earlier if anyone thought I was trying to encourage ANYONE to meeting a single guy if that's not their desire. I was talking to those people who ARE looking to meet single males. I don't like when people insist I must do anything, so to finalize my thoughts on this I shall again say. Sorry if anyone gleaned that from my earlier post. As far as anyone who wishes to chat and heck who knows what will come of it, I am open to start a dialogue. I'ved enjoyed reading the comments and I thank all those that write for sharing. I know, I know, sounds a bit wimpy but it gives me comfort knowing there is a whole world of people with a similar lifestyle.
    Dean
    FYI- ATAK- Congrats on the I before E rule proficiency. Self - deprecating humor is an endearing quality.
    No need to apoligize but you comments are appreciated. We all have ideas that change as times do. Our own times included. Swinging has taken on a new dimension thanks to Julies swingersboard and many people including yours truly have reconsidered many things.

    Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

    John.

  7. Back To Top | #57

    Default Re: A dime per dozen?

    So much to say about so many things but I will try to keep it as short as possible. I certainly don't think I can speak for all single males and while my experience is probably limited in comparison to many of you, I would like to express my humble opinion on a few things.

    First of all thanks for asking that couples not interested in single males respond to any of this. Those who express a distate for wine shouldn't be judges at a wine contest. And, not everybody likes licorice, but those that do like it a lot.

    As for me, I have been on swing internet sites for about 9 months now and have met a lot of different people. In couples and single females, I have made some friends and met some people I don't want to meet again. I have had my invitations accepted and asked back, and I have been turned down. I have accepted invitations and turned others down. As my profile says "Nothing personal". I know not everyone is that way but I don't want to get naked and have sex with people I don't like as a person and trust. Sue me

    Some couples want a single male once in a while and some on a regular basis. Some only play with a single male because the female is jealous of another female. Some husbands enjoy MFM because like me they are voyeuristic and exhibitionistic and are not jealous. Some do it because it takes a two to one ratio to do a DP. Some just enjoy seeing their wife have a great time without jealousy issues. Some couples enjoy both types of threesomes but have found that single females tend to get emotional issues more quickly and more often than single men, hence some females of a couple having jealousy issues.

    While I think about it, I was married to a serial cheater for many years. I have turned down couples when I found out one or both were married but not to the other half of the "couple". I don't judge you but I don't want to be an accessory either. If you are having sex with others with your spouses knowledge and consent, you are not a cheater. If you are having sex with others without and probably against your spouses knowledge and consent you are a cheater. That's all I have to say about that.

    Am I here for the sex? In a word YES!! But, not just sex. Any single male that a couple considers for a threesome is going to be attractive, poised, intelligent, and personable enough to get plenty of one on one action in "real life". Most of the sex I have is one on one sex with non swinging single females I meet elsewhere. But, I am here for the same reasons the couples are, relatively strings free, safe, recreational sex usually of a voyeuristic/exhibitionistic nature, and time with like minded individuals who don't judge us by a different set of values than the ones we live by. When I leave a couples house after an evening of sex, conversation, and assorted good times, I don't have to think about how long to wait before calling or "how has this changed our relationship" etc. They will call me when they want to play again, simple as that. Perfect example here, a female friend I have sex with when she wants to, told me recently that sex with me was great but she wasn't in love with me and she was having guilt problems because she was having great sex with someone she didn't love. I can't imagine a swinger telling me that. So, now I can't have sex with her without feeling guilty for making her feel guilty, sheeeesh. She took something that had been very pleasurable and made it a drama laden psycoanalyzed activity. No wonder single men flock to these sites and the clubs.

    I am not in a threesome to steal a wife, show someone how to do it, prove anything, or be a stunt cock, (or is that stunk cock?), I am there to enjoy the same things the couples are there for. If I ever find a single female I fall in love with, I hope she is into swinging. If she isn't I will live with it. If she is, I will remember being a single male in the lifestyle and not judge people as bad just because they are a single male. Will I "share" my wife, I hope so as I would enjoy seeing her doing the same things I have seen other wives do and I would be just as accepting.

    I apologize if I have rambled.
    Play safe, it's a big world out there.
    Curiousagain

  8. Back To Top | #58

    Default Re: A dime per dozen?

    I think that there are more single guys trying to get into the lifestyle that are not as honest. At the club we frequent, there is a gentleman that had a female companion for many years, and she moved away. He is still welcome at this club. However, he has not behaved as appropriately as one should.....

  9. Back To Top | #59

    Default Re: A dime per dozen?

    Wow, pretty hard core here... Traditionally, any married person who has sex with another who isn't their spouse is cheating, whether they have permission, or are in the presence of their spouse, so now let's talk about the degree of cheating.

    Is a man who otherwise loves and cherishes their spouse , but who is unfulfilled in their sex life, and who goes out side of the marriage for that fulillment a less moral person? Some whould say yes, but most of the population would say that both are equally at fault.

    What we should really be addressing is that some sincere bond of trust needs to be established for the single male to be allowed into the sex play of the couple. And that a significant component of that must be that the non spousal male must understand his place in the relationship...primarily that he is there for the purpose of bringing heightened pleasure to the couples sex play. If he is there for any other purpose on his part, then he is in the wrong.

    This is presupposing that the couple is evenly balanced in their sexual need and desire and that they are truly swinging for their mutual enjoyment which is rarely the case. For just as most couples have varying sex drives, and are frequently doing this for their spouse's desires, isn't this fact is surely carried over into the swinging lifestyle as well. There are too many permutations in married relationships to go into here, but they are all alive and well in the "swinging" communtiy as well. So to say that the "evil cheating" single male is a bad commodity is only a relative designation, but one with which he is gored most gleefully by these other moral relativists called "swinging couples".

    So I therefore suggest that we back off the mud slinging and rather discuss the true difficulty in interpersonal relationships on such intimate levels that include ones sexuality.

    If single males are relegated to a dark corner from which the elite swinging couple sometimes lowers themselves to select from, then there can never be a fair and balanced quality of relationship because it is prejudged that he is of lesser status. And who of reasonable self worth would set himself within this framework? Wouldn't they truely then be men that no one would reasonably want to be with, in an intimate setting?

    It's so very hard to have it both ways in this worldly existence we lead.

    So look down your nose at single males of what ever declination, but aren't you also failing to see yourselves with retrospect?

  10. Back To Top | #60

    Default Re: A dime per dozen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Menos50
    Wow, pretty hard core here... Traditionally, any married person who has sex with another who isn't their spouse is cheating, whether they have permission, or are in the presence of their spouse, so now let's talk about the degree of cheating.
    Um... huh? Cheating is usually defined as having a sexual (or even simply a deep emotional) relationship with another without the knowledge and agreement of one's spouse. Where'd ya come up with this other idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Menos50
    Is a man who otherwise loves and cherishes their spouse , but who is unfulfilled in their sex life, and who goes out side of the marriage for that fulillment a less moral person? Some whould say yes, but most of the population would say that both are equally at fault.
    Less moral? Yes. As I've said before on this board, it's the lying and disrespect that's the real issue. Most of what population?

    Quote Originally Posted by Menos50
    What we should really be addressing is that some sincere bond of trust needs to be established for the single male to be allowed into the sex play of the couple. And that a significant component of that must be that the non spousal male must understand his place in the relationship...primarily that he is there for the purpose of bringing heightened pleasure to the couples sex play. If he is there for any other purpose on his part, then he is in the wrong.
    It's addressed all the time, successfully, within the context of the single male truly being what he is representing himself as being: single. Not married-and-cheating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menos50
    This is presupposing that the couple is evenly balanced in their sexual need and desire and that they are truly swinging for their mutual enjoyment which is rarely the case.
    Not at all rare in my experience, either as a swinging couple in the past or as a swinging single male, now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menos50
    For just as most couples have varying sex drives, and are frequently doing this for their spouse's desires, isn't this fact is surely carried over into the swinging lifestyle as well.
    It's not the "drive level" that's at issue. It's the approach to sex as something other than exclusive to a marriage. If one member of a couple is consistently "taking one for the team", in the sense that one person has no desire to swing and is doing it only to try and preserve the relationship, then I can pretty much guarantee you that that couple will not long be swinging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menos50
    There are too many permutations in married relationships to go into here, but they are all alive and well in the "swinging" communtiy as well. So to say that the "evil cheating" single male is a bad commodity is only a relative designation, but one with which he is gored most gleefully by these other moral relativists called "swinging couples".
    You've been sliding your definition of a "single male" all over the place, and assuming that most swingers also do the same. Life does not imitate your mind (it imitates mine, but that's not relevant to this discussion... ). For most of us, singles and couples, a "single male" or "single female" is exactly what one would think: a person not currently married or in any other relationship with another, and who is therefore free to participate. Anyone participating without the knowledge and consent of a spouse (or any other partner having an expectation of exclusivity) is not "single"; they're cheating.

    There's no moral relativism here, as you contend. The majority of swingers of all sorts expect that those who are going to swing with them are either: 1) truly single and therefore free to consent or 2) participating as a mutually consenting partnership of some sort. The only "moral relativism" I see here is in your implied idea that anyone having sex with anyone else outside of the typical one-on-one situation has already violated some idea of yours about what "morally pure" sex is all about, and therefore, should have no compunction about violating any other moral or ethical "standard". Frankly, in my experience (and apparently in that of many other participants here) many swingers have a clearly defined moral standard: they simply require "informed consent" for anyone that they will swing with, and anyone who is a party potentially effected by it (as in a spouse who may choose not to swing). I've known couples where only one of the two participated: and where a telephone call or face-to-face discussion with the party who did not swing (in order to confirm their consent and agreement) was no problem whatsoever. The important point is that all affected are freely choosing what transpires.


    Quote Originally Posted by Menos50
    So I therefore suggest that we back off the mud slinging and rather discuss the true difficulty in interpersonal relationships on such intimate levels that include ones sexuality.

    If single males are relegated to a dark corner from which the elite swinging couple sometimes lowers themselves to select from, then there can never be a fair and balanced quality of relationship because it is prejudged that he is of lesser status. And who of reasonable self worth would set himself within this framework? Wouldn't they truely then be men that no one would reasonably want to be with, in an intimate setting?

    It's so very hard to have it both ways in this worldly existence we lead.

    So look down your nose at single males of what ever declination, but aren't you also failing to see yourselves with retrospect?
    There's damn little mudslinging here at any single who represents himself or herself truthfully and doesn't otherwise act like an ass. As a married person of either gender that represents as "single" is not representing truthfully, most all the contentions you raise here are, quite simply, moot. It's quite obvious that the majority of people who regularly participate here see themselves very clearly, both on a day-to-day basis as well as retrospectively, and quite clearly and consistently explain their viewpoint.

  11. Back To Top | #61
    Chimpin' Ain't Easy Spoomonkey's Avatar
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    Married Monkeys - will you be our vine?
    SLS Handle
    Spoomonkey

    Default Re: A dime per dozen?

    I'll just Dito Paphian on this one...

    However, I'll add this: Cheat - To violate rules deliberately, as in a game.

    We are playing within the boundaries of the rules that we, as a couple, have agreed on. We are NOT cheating according to any definition of the word. It is not simply a matter of degrees...

    Your lack of understanding on this simple word put the rest of your post in the context of "this guy just doesn't get it."

    Spoomonkey
    "Eros will have naked bodies; Friendship naked personalities." - C. S. Lewis

  12. Back To Top | #62

    Default Re: A dime per dozen?

    Surely a divorced/seperated etc single male swinger is far more attractive as a single male to couples than a guy new or just been the single male?

    He will be more senstive, understanding and relaxed swinging with a couple(s). We wouldnt go for "normal single guys" who had no or little experience. surely clubs should differentiate between those that have long time experience and new inexperienced single swingers!

    and for single female swingers surely a guy that has fone it before is more suitable than a newbie???

    its aharsh old world

  13. Back To Top | #63

    Default Re: A dime per dozen?

    John - my first step in here - I agree with wqhat you saay - take my situation mid fifties, married for 29 years - she was never reallyu very excited qbout sex, seemed to enjoy it but was never really "hey, lets go do it kind of girl. A little adventurous but not real. I will say no cheating but maybe I just wasn't the best husband, now see things I could have done better, Kids say "Dad, best thing that happened you really deserve someone better. My thoughts were the best thing to do would be to get involved in and around the life style feeling somwwhere there is a gal who for various reasons is going to leave her husband, and/or sad to say people die. If I meet a gal through this venue we would have a much better approach and uinderstanding about sex and have a great start as a new couple. So I would like to go to a club and just get to know people but all this stigma of "Single Males" has me a little wary. Thanks,


    John.[/QUOTE]

  14. Back To Top | #64

    Default Re: A dime per dozen?

    Quote Originally Posted by macissmart
    My thoughts were the best thing to do would be to get involved in and around the life style feeling somwwhere there is a gal who for various reasons is going to leave her husband, and/or sad to say people die. If I meet a gal through this venue we would have a much better approach and uinderstanding about sex and have a great start as a new couple.
    Greetings and welcome from a fellow single male. I understand how a divorce can give a man a number of opportunities to pursue things he never could in his marriage, but I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself (and greatly restricting your possibilites) in pursuing only women who have experience in the lifestyle. Most women who have done this, have done it only within the context of a committed relationship. In other words, they want to be in the relationship first...then they'll talk about swinging. Those few women who are looking for male swing partners are, well...they're so few and far between you're probably not going to find one anyway, so there's no use discussing them here.

    Being somebody's "ticket" is NEVER a one-sided deal. Most women who are agreeable to being some guys ticket into this lifestyle do so in the expectation that the man will be their ticket out of some other lifestyle. How much bullshit are you willing to put up with, and how much expense are you willing to incur, just to have somebody to swing with?

  15. Back To Top | #65
    Chimpin' Ain't Easy Spoomonkey's Avatar
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    Married Monkeys - will you be our vine?
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    Spoomonkey

    Default Re: A dime per dozen?

    Quote Originally Posted by macissmart
    My thoughts were the best thing to do would be to get involved in and around the life style feeling somwwhere there is a gal who for various reasons is going to leave her husband, and/or sad to say people die.
    Dude - this makes you sound like a freaking vulture...

    And it is EXACTLY the kind of "stigma" that some single males are trying to avoid. This is the kind of stuff that totally turns us off of most single men - and this is the kind of sick attitude that makes it tough for sincere couples to find good singles...

    Spoomonkey
    "Eros will have naked bodies; Friendship naked personalities." - C. S. Lewis

  16. Back To Top | #66

    Default Re: A dime per dozen?

    Well I'm kind of late into this discussion ... I guess my first question would be why Flori_Daman (if thats right) said his mate had died .... and it seems she hadn't or am i too many wines down here LOL. Anyway hubby and I had a great first MFM experience and from all reports we were lucky. However he has since married and - well he's a hard act to follow. But ... one of our very first criteria with each other, was that anyone we involved in our "playtime" had to be fully aware of the risks. So by that we meant that if your spouse doesn't know about it they are taking risks both emotionally and physically that they are not even aware of. We have met many people online (mostly males) who have attempted to deceive us but it doesn't take long to see through it if you're aware. Only once did we actually play in a situation which was a married man with a girlfriend and as soon as they "fessed up" shortly afterwards it was "bye bye from us". This is not a moral judgement on anyone else, it is i guess some kind of ruling that helps us to feel a touch less hedonistic! If we're not hurting anyone else than its OK. Do we need that? Well yes I guess to some degree we do. But for the single males out there, and only for the really truly single males out there .... don't be too disheartened. As was said earlier, many couples just are not interested in MFM, its not necessarily personal or discriminatory. I am not Bi. and have been in many situations where I've had to gently push away the bi.fem. because its just not my thing.

  17. Back To Top | #67

    Default Re: A dime per dozen?

    Ok, I'll bring back the signature of an "old" post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Flori_DAMAN
    John (the celibate swinger).
    Well... that's what define you as the "right" single swinger. Seriously.

    Swinger couples (are supposed to) have a satisfying sex live inside their marriages. Looking at them as a unit, they'd be ok about being "swinging celibates", when they actually meet someone else for sex, it is just for fun, not because of a crave coming from an "enforced to celibate" (i.e., who doesn't find who to fuck with). This leads to an attitude most of them share.

    Part of the prescreening problem is how to know tell if the others (singles or married) are "celibate swinger" or "enforced to celibate" (for couples, let say those who doesn't enjoy it with their spouses), because the later ones (and this is true even for couples) are the ones in a rush that could be risky for a couple, a risk going from the uncomfortability to the plain drama.

    This prescreening is more easy with couples. Being two, those who crave and rush often end up exposing themselves (it is easy to hide it for just one person). With women, the prescreening would be even harder. Culturaly women are taguht to celibate, or at least know how to behave as if they were celibes and become very proficient on hidding the craving and rush thing... even to the point required to avoid the unconfortability or the drama most of the times, should that crave were there.

    Males are toguht in the macho, competitive stuff, something requiring to expose the crave and even the rush fulfillment, as opposed to women, so we're not proficient enough to hide this when we have the crave: we may do it during the seduction game (with a gal, with a couple), but once succeded in that game, we're unable to hide the crave and for the other one (couple or even a gal) it became exposed.

    So we, males, actually know how to pass trough such a prescreening proccess. If having the crave, we're not proficient to hide it afterwards... once the ball is rolling, and when too late for the other involved (single or couple).

    This isn't an issue when singles meet each other. Let say, you meet a woman, you either know if she wants an uncommited relationship or a commited one. In the later case, such a commitment takes time, you have to be patient and spend time proving who you are in a longer prescreening proccess.

    But for couples, they already have a commitment themselves to preserve, anyone else getting involved with them should at least know the value of a commitment, both the commitment they have and a commitment requred for third parties (singles or couples) that they won't challenge the couple commitment. Among couples you can suppose both ot them have the same problem to address, and they will colaborate with each other and enforce the rules, and that can be done fast enough as to get the fun they all look for.

    When the couple meets the single, the problem would be how to ensure the understanding of the commitment the single have is enough for them to ensure they can preserve their own one, and to ensure the singe guy would fit to the rules.

    So I believe the "swinging celibate" attitude, to be up to stick to the rules and pay attention to the effects the single actions may have in the couple commitments, even at the price of keep being "swinging celibate" if required, is the key point here. And how to find this trough a prescreening.

    I know, I am breaking your rules... we don't seek for single guys, but actually we don't deny the chance. Just the prescreening proccess able to make us confident enough about a single guy seems to require an effort that insn't needed with couples, that doesn't worth the price... as we wouldn't be swinging at all if the effor were the same with couples either.

    The problem I have here is, everithing that can be said to help us prescreen guys can be used by some guys to learn how to give us an answer.

    And this isn't a matter of granting rights to singles to have a fair chance to be known. In fact, there are singles who have increasing chances, but those are regulars in the club we attend whose attitude is consistent as the time goes on, thus allowing us to a slower prescreening proccess. Such a request for granting rights is unfair to us: we cannot realy on such a prescreening and we have way more to loose than the single in the exchange.

    Someone said in a post, as the thumb rule for cheaters: "never fuck with anyone who have less to loose than yourself". I believe this is true not only for cheaters, also for swingers. If we perceive a couple have less to loose than us, we trend to run away, but this is the perception we have with every single we knew.

    Let's take macissmart previous comment:

    "My thoughts were the best thing to do would be to get involved in and around the life style feeling somwwhere there is a gal who for various reasons is going to leave her husband".

    This guy not only have less to loose than me, he also is hoping me to loose my wife, hoping for my marriage commitment to fall appart. I know he won't succeed, he have no chance, but this attitude may lead to a very anoying situation that has nothing to do with what we're looking for when swinging.

    We beaten him because of his words. He may come here under a new nickname after learning that telling this is the fatest way to loose in his prescreening. How can you tell, then, how many other guys around are hidding the same sort of toughts while giving us his best smile for a prescreening?

    For a lot of couples this is a risk we don't have proficiencies to deal with, and by risk I mean a very concrete threat of harm to our marriage. As I said before, if we were feeling so threatened by couples, we wouldn't be swinging at all, but the fact is, most couples doesn't threat us, they have to deal with the same threats, and the couples that can actually threat us are easily seen.

    It isn't a matter of an "stigma", it's just about self preservation. And I hate to not know any way to tell appart the "right" singles from the "bad" ones, because I like the tought of an MFM... and even when two couples can engage into a MFM as well.

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