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  1. Back To Top | #26

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    Originally posted by Alura
    ... I thought bi sex with a male did necessarily mean anal intercourse.
    ...
    I'd say it covers a whole range of M/M interaction, from kissing, mutual masturbation, oral sex and anal intercourse. While I have never had a strong desire to kiss another man or engage in anal sex, I did enjoy giving and receiving oral sex in the context of a foursome. Part of that was that I knew that one of the ladies involved enjoyed watching, but I won't say that I didn't enjoy it myself.

    I guess that makes me bi, or a bit more than just 'bi-curious'. I'd probably do it again, given the right circumstances, but it's not something I would particularly seek out either.

    Like many have said, when there are four or more involved, things are gonna go 'bump' occasionally, and that does not bother me in the slightest. One thing for sure though, I'd never do anything that would make anyone (male or female) uncomfortable.

    -B
    "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." - Mark Twain
    All about us...

  2. Back To Top | #27
    Purveyors of Perviness ionsawmill's Avatar
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    He's Bisexual She's still thinking about it. They are happily married!
    SLS Handle
    ionsawmill

    Default JBICouple

    I agree that there are more bisexual men in the swinging lifestyle than people would want to believe. I was told, when I started investigating the lifestyle, that I should keep my bisexuality to myself. I decided to be honest and open about my sexuality, even if it meant that we never find anyone compatible. How many men entering the lifestyle are willing to make that kind of commitment? Instead, they pass as straights and either suppress their bisexual tendancies or live a double life. Odds are that if you've been in swinging for long, you've had sex with a bisexual man, whether you knew it or not.

    One of our unfulfilled fantasies is double vaginal insertion. I can't imagine any "very str8" man rubbing his penis against mine, regardless of its location. (By "very str8", I mean the men who announce vociferously their staightness and wilt in the presence of another male member.) Of course, there's no accounting for the ability that we men have to rationalize almost anything. Somehow, the presence of a woman acts as a buffer that allows the straight man to reason away the presence of the other male, despite the fact that most of his own sensation may be caused by male-male contact.

    Somehow, we are supposed to believe that there are more bisexual females in swinging than in the general population and that, conversely, there are less bisexual men. How likely is that, considering the homogeneity of the swinging subculture?

    I really think that if women were inherently more bisexual than men, then there would be less close-ups of penises in hetero porn. Guys in porn flicks would remain clothed throughout the entire show, only exposing the least necessary flesh. They would be as unattractive as possible and preferably out of shape. Instead, they are Calvin Klein underwear models making a few extra bucks on the side.
    IonSawmill@Yahoo.com
    He is "Tainted Homily" - She is "Deal Earner"

  3. Back To Top | #28

    Default Re: JBICouple

    Originally posted by ionsawmill
    One of our unfulfilled fantasies is double vaginal insertion. I can't imagine any "very str8" man rubbing his penis against mine, regardless of its location. (By "very str8", I mean the men who announce vociferously their staightness and wilt in the presence of another male member.) Of course, there's no accounting for the ability that we men have to rationalize almost anything. Somehow, the presence of a woman acts as a buffer that allows the straight man to reason away the presence of the other male, despite the fact that most of his own sensation may be caused by male-male contact.
    That ability to rationalize the irrational certainly is a remarkable gift. But picking up on one of Mr Alura's thoughts, a person's bi-ness in such a situation is surely largely determined by their thought process at the time?

    Taking your example of double vaginal penetration: if the male's primary concern is for the pleasure of the female, with little - if any - regard for his own, can he really be assessed as being bi? If he is consciously thinking to himself: "I'm really relishing the sensation of rubbing my cock against another man's", there well may be a good-sized element of bi-ness to him. If he's thinking: "I am enjoying the overall experience of fucking this woman in conjunction with another man", then it's going to depend on the jury's interpretation. If he's thinking: "I'm uncomfortable with having my dick in such proximity to another man's tool, but I'm enjoying the pleasure it's giving my partner" can he really be assessed as being bi?

    Would such a man be rationalising away his bisexual tendencies?
    It's not going to be an orgy. It's a toga party . . .

  4. Back To Top | #29

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    Can't help it ........must post the obvious.......LMAO!
    If a woman licks a pussy, or snuggles under sexual content with another woman: She's bi.

    However! If a man sucks a cock, as long as it is for the pleasure of a woman, or his main focus is for the woman: He's bi curious or experimenting, but straight.

    Have to agree with ionsawmill: Guys are amazing!
    Of course, that's probably because the following (warped outlook)also appears to be true:

    A woman kisses another woman and she's full blown bi as far as society is concerned! No getting out of it! You are bi. period!

    Now let a man kiss another guy, just one little kiss, and OMG he's gay! No turning back now! You are gay. period!
    No more pussy for you!






    People live in cities, but people are alive in the woods.

  5. Back To Top | #30

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    Originally posted by jcbicouple
    Can't help it ........must post the obvious.......LMAO!
    If a woman licks a pussy, or snuggles under sexual content with another woman: She's bi.

    However! If a man sucks a cock, as long as it is for the pleasure of a woman, or his main focus is for the woman: He's bi curious or experimenting, but straight.
    If you're picking up on the point that I made, then I have to agree that more extreme actions - like masturbating another man, or sucking him - would indicate a bi- aspect to his sexuality regardless of what he's thinking at the time. Or what he tells himself/his partner/his friends to try and make himself feel better later.
    It's not going to be an orgy. It's a toga party . . .

  6. Back To Top | #31

    Default Re: Its a simple concept, really

    Originally posted by EternallySingle
    I knew three men from a small community in Brazil who laughed at the fact that I wouldn't join them and their girlfriends in a mutual masturbation party. Where they grew up, the terms homosexuality, bisexuality, and heterosexuality didn't exist until the 1940's when missionaries tried Christianizing them. They simply believed sex was sex and as long as noone was forced, everything was enjoyable.
    Hopefully this isn't too long an absence in this thread... and it can be started up again.

    As a bisexual male in a bisexual couple, I often contemplate why Liz is openly accepted as being bi while I am not offered the same acceptance. As a bisexual that engages only in oral sex with other men (at this time anyway!! ), I do not let too many people know of my sexual choice, simply to steer clear of any labels that others might give me as a result.

    OK... time to open up a HUGE can of worms....
    To answer why bisexual males are not accepted, I can accept many of the possible causes that have been discussed, but EternallySingle hit the nail on the head, although I am not sure he meant to do so! It is organized religion that has forced male-male sex into the closets and dark booths at adult book stores. There are a number of entries in the bible that mention male-male sex. In nearly all instances, the act of male-male sex is looked upon in a negative light.

    Does this mean I am agnostic and find religion a blight on humanity? No. Many people need religion. I am a Catholic, albeit non-practicing. And I do believe in some form of a higher power or god that looks over us and has a master plan for us. In medieval times and prior, male-male sex was acceptable. As man interpreted the teachings of the bible, the basic tenets were changed to more accurately mirror what the person or group interpreting them felt was appropriate. At a point in history, someone got it into their head that male-male sex was unacceptable and, with hellfire and brimstone, convinced others into believing the same. Soon, enough people were convinced and, lo & behold, male-male sex was now a no-no. Somehow, no one ever took it upon themselves to argue against the point until very recently, for example the same sex marriages that have been performed across the US. But that fight still has a long way to go. AND... as most gay or lesbian people will tell you, it does not address bisexuality - bi people tend to be ostracized by both heterosexual and gay/lesbian people. Sigh

    Anyway... one more point - if one looks at any indigenous race that has lived without outside influence (i.e., the Aborigines in the 1950s), you'd see that male-male sex is not frowned upon and, in some instances, it is highly acceptable. I am not necessarily suggesting a man having anal intercourse with another is accepted, but oral sex, masturbation... things of that nature have been very accepted in many cultures for centuries. Oh... that's right... right up until... organized religion showed up!

    OK... those who wish to stone me... line up on the right, but make sure to take a number!
    BiCoupleNJ
    From the beautiful shores of Central NJ :-)

  7. Back To Top | #32

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    Dito to BiCoupleNJ... As I state in my profile I am Bi however, I will NEVER push that fact on anyone, nor will I never bring it up unless asked. NOT because I'm shy, just because there's too many homophobes who think Bi is Gay. I just believe that everyone should know who their swinging with. My girlfriend (Bi-Lea) and I recently re-united with ferocity and she never knew untill recently (two months ago) that I was Bi, even though at the beginning she wasn't too thrilled at the idea, she is starting to understand and slowly excepting and actually asking more and more questions about my borders with other guys. For the record, I don't enjoy anal and I just don't like kissing other guys, not that there is anything wrong with it but it's not something I enjoy..

    To an ending people, Just because you think it, doesn't make you Bi. If you confront your "desires", then yes your Bi.. It's OK, let others know, they have the right to know just like you have the right to "enjoy"...

    One last thing promise. Things do go bump in the night, and No your not Bi unless it was enjoyable to you, then what you do with it is simply what you do with it!!!!

    Life is short people, lets do what we do best and enjoy it!!

    -- Dave --
    Life is great if you live each day like it's your first! - Dave & Lea

  8. Back To Top | #33

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    hey great topic. i agree with dave & lea im also bi. there is a diff between bi & gay. im not into kissing and hugging etc with another guy but have no prob in a 3some or moresome. i have been with a couple of guys one on one blowjobs are great done the anal thing - on top- but dont really get into that. its more fun when a woman is there either watching or teasing or joining in. dp's are great knowing she is getting double pleasure is what gets me off. it feels good to me to know the other person is getting blown away. you have to be secure with yourself to enjoy being with other people anyway. dont worry about whose touching who or who has the biggest dick. i get off watching 2 women enjoy each other so i can see how she would feel watching 2 guys.

  9. Back To Top | #34

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    In my own opinion, I think that the most important difference between bi & gay was made by the last two posters (Dee_Lee & bser): gay males have an emotional bond to each other, which is often manifested in a kiss or a loving touch. Bisexual males, as odd as this might sound, are open to oral and, perhaps, anal sex with other men, but do not have an emotional, loving bond with that other man, thereby usually not engaging in kissing and other forms of intimacy that would be shared with the opposite sex and/or a loved one.
    Yeah, I know it sounds weird... you'll let a guy stick his cock down your throat and you might even swallow his load... but you won't kiss him. But to me, that seems to be the one differentiator between a bisexual and a gay male.
    Any thoughts?
    Jerry
    BiCoupleNJ
    From the beautiful shores of Central NJ :-)

  10. Back To Top | #35

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    Not to be disrespectful to gay men, but neither me nor my wife think the idea of man-on-man action is attractive or exciting. It kinda grosses us out.

    But, hey, to each our own. We're just not interested in it. I have very little desire to partake in the man-sausage (shrug).

    On the other hand, both of us think women are attractive. So she has a little bi play now and then, but nothing serious. She prefers men most of the time.

    It's simple, really.

  11. Back To Top | #36

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    Originally posted by BiCoupleNJ
    In my own opinion, I think that the most important difference between bi & gay was made by the last two posters (Dee_Lee & bser): gay males have an emotional bond to each other, which is often manifested in a kiss or a loving touch.
    A co-worker and friend of mine is gay, and we were talking about this one day. He was in the process of breaking up with his boyfriend, and I made an off-hand comment about "at least you don't have to worry about catching your wife sleeping with another guy!"* His reply was "Hah! Let me tell you something! Gay men are the worst whores in the whole world!"

    I was taken aback a bit, to say the least. Maybe I was just being naive.

    * - No, he has no idea that me and my wife Swing.
    I find your ideas intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

  12. Back To Top | #37

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    Originally posted by Chris&Amelia
    His reply was "Hah! Let me tell you something! Gay men are the worst whores in the whole world!"

    I was taken aback a bit, to say the least. Maybe I was just being naive.
    Chris,

    According to the local gay community, this is absolutely true - my brother is gay and he is one of the first to tell you that he wishes he wasn't, primarily because he can't find a guy to 'settle down' with, so to speak.

    But... and this is a REALLY BIG BUT.... you missed the point entirely: the suggestion that gay men might be the worst whores, as per your co-worker, has nothing at all to do with emotional bonding. Commitment and bonding are two entirely different animals. To put this into your own perspective (that being a hetero male), just because you are married and show love and affection - an emotional bond - to your wife, it does not guarantee that you would not cheat on her with other women. Not that you would, but maybe that clarifies my position a little better for you. Better yet, let's use a term that hasn't been used in many a year (except where Warren Beatty is concerned) - womanizer. A man might show love and affection to a woman in public or elsewhere, but that has nothing to do with commitment or monogamy. A gay male might show love and affection to another man, but that has nothing to do with commitment or monogamy. A bisexual male typically will not show love nor affection to another male. Therein lies the difference.

    Again, just my own opinion here, but my opinion is based on nearly 20 years in the lifestyle in which I have run a swing club with over 3000 members and published a swingers contact newsletter with nearly 1000 subscribers.

    Jerry
    BiCoupleNJ
    From the beautiful shores of Central NJ :-)

  13. Back To Top | #38
    Purveyors of Perviness ionsawmill's Avatar
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    He's Bisexual She's still thinking about it. They are happily married!
    SLS Handle
    ionsawmill

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    Ok. I'll bite. What do you call a guy who does form emotional bonds with males and females and will have sex with both, but prefers sex with women?

    I've been married for 9 years, but I've been friends with the same guy for almost 20 years.

    Do I love him? Yes!

    Would I have sex with him? In a minute.

    I could see myself in a long term sexual relationship with him. We've shared everything else. We've known each other so long that we can almost read each other's minds. Just like I'd do anything for my wife, I'd do anything for him. He's exactly what I'm looking for in a man. There's just one problem; he's straight. We've discussed it, and he's just not into guys. If not for the fact that he and my wife don't find each other the least bit attractive, he'd would have been our first "third".

    I don't think that a guy is bisexual if they tolerate sex with men as long as they don't feel emotionally attached. Hedonist might be a better term. You have to ask yourself this question: am I attracted to men or just tolerent of men.

    T.H.
    IonSawmill@Yahoo.com
    He is "Tainted Homily" - She is "Deal Earner"

  14. Back To Top | #39

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    Originally posted by ionsawmill
    I don't think that a guy is bisexual if they tolerate sex with men as long as they don't feel emotionally attached. Hedonist might be a better term. You have to ask yourself this question: am I attracted to men or just tolerent of men.
    T.H.
    T.H.,

    Now you are getting into the realm of argument that is most commonly fought over in predominantly gay communities, at least based on what my brother, who is, as I mentioned, gay, suggests. He has lived here in the central NJ area where there are several large gay communities as well as in San Francisco, San Diego and South Beach, FL.
    In predominantly gay communities, gay & lesbian people argue that women that call themselves bisexual are really straight and only performing a sexual act against their norm to please their man. These same groups suggest that a man that calls himself bisexual is really gay and only holds on to a hetero relationship to hide that fact. Keep in mind that these are only generalizations and are not indicative of all gay/lesbian people.
    Based on those comments, both you and I would be considered closet gay males, although I am sure that is hardly the truth with either of us. In fact, I know that I cannot have an emotional bond with another man that is even remotely close to that which I hold with Liz or even girls that I call dear & close friends.
    My initial comments, as broad as they are, are based on the closest conclusion that one can come to in today's day of labelling every person, no matter what they do. And that is a key word - label. For whatever reason, we have become a race of labellers - one cannot be simply 'man' or 'woman'... one must have a label - white, rich, black, asian, jew, gay, etc. Therein lies the problem - and the confusion - in our subject of this thread.
    About a year ago, a very dear girlfriend came to visit. I have known and loved her for more than 20 years. And, by love, I mean a love that transcends simple friendships and is as strong as that which Liz and I have in marriage. Perhaps stronger. During her visit, we got on the subject of bisexuality as she is a very sexual and emotional being, one that can truly love anyone, be they man or woman. Not necessarily in a sexual sense, but certainly in a heart-felt, emotional sense. She was concerned that her husband wasn't happy about doing the 'womanly' chores around the house - dishes, cooking, etc. I happen to be THE cook in my family, berating Liz if she so much as enters my kitchen when I am preparing dinner
    The end result of this conversation was that the trouble with the world in general is labels - at the most basic level, humankind feels there is a need to label everything as being a male or female activity. This results in a significant breakdown in humanity insofar as sharing and living peacefully is concerned. How many times have you heard a guy bitch that the dishes were piling up because his wife wasn't doing 'her job'? Or how often have you heard the wife complaining that the husband wasn't doing 'his job', cutting the lawn? The list of arguments are endless.
    SOOOO.... how does all this tie into this thread? I fell into the same trap - feeling a need to define what is and what is not bisexual/gay. By defining, in my terms, those words, I generalized and assumed... coming to a conclusion that does not fit you at all. That's not really a bad thing, but it is the norm for all of us these days - we ALL have to pigeonhole someone and label them, thereby reducing a human with a variety of choices... that might alter their choices from time to time... down to a definition of something they may not actually be at all.
    TH - you are different than I am by nature of your ability to have an emotional, loving and sexual relationship with another man. I congratulate you for that ability. But we are the same in that we are both sexual beings that have an ability to appreciate sexual activity with others, be they men or women. We are not heterosexual... we are not bisexual... we are not homosexual... we are simply sexual beings.
    Thank you for pointing out the error in my ways... and letting me ramble on like this... I DO so like to talk (so you can see) on subjects like this!!! :-)
    Jerry
    BiCoupleNJ
    From the beautiful shores of Central NJ :-)

  15. Back To Top | #40

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    We label and categorize in an effort to control our environments. Rather than just accept what a person is, or isn't, we need a compartment to allocate them to. A way of judgmentalizing and therefore being able to take a position. Transexual and transgendered issues are good examples. What category do they fall into in our present understanding? Where do we slot them?

    Why slot them at all?

  16. Back To Top | #41

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    You are so right, yawanna!
    The world has become one of excessive competitiveness & comparison and minimal trust. If that weren't so, we could all 'just get along'.
    Your point about transsexual and transgender issues are far worse than this bit of discussion on what constitutes bisexuality in a man. I am sure that, given time, we could come up with dozens and maybe even hundreds of 'groups' such as these in which harassment, bias and other issues exist.
    I don't think humans will ever attain a level of acceptance of all people before being wiped off the face of the earth. But I guess we can all make small steps towards meeting that goal... towards accepting people for what they are, not what we think they are... and maybe come close to that Nirvana!
    Jerry

  17. Back To Top | #42
    Purveyors of Perviness ionsawmill's Avatar
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    He's Bisexual She's still thinking about it. They are happily married!
    SLS Handle
    ionsawmill

    Default Labels and why I like them.

    I think labels are a good thing. On the whole, humans are conceptual thinkers. We tend to think of things in the abstract. Try to think of an apple. You're more likely to think of an idealized apple than any specific apple. There are green apples, yellow apples and red apples, but you most likely thought of a red apple. If every time you had a conversation with another person, you had to stop and redefine all the concepts discussed, you'd find yourself bogged down in definitions and not really getting anywhere. If I said, "Go out and buy an apple." and we had to stop and define exactly what constituted an apple, I'd starve before I got that apple. Is it still an apple if it's not red? Is it still an apple if it's not ripe and juicy? What if it has spots? If your "apple-concept" differs from my "apple-concept" (and it surely does), then we can never come to an agreement without creating a commonly held ideal of what an apple is.

    Thus we create labels which represent generalizations about the world around us. It's a necessary part of human communication.

    For ease of communication, it's necessary for all parties to agree on what a term means. I say that bisexuals are those who are have a sexual orientation to persons of either sex. This is dependent on my definition of sexual attraction, which includes an emotional attachment. Your definition carries no emotional prerequisite, therefore my definition is too specific for our discussion. Someone else defined bisexuality based on experience, not orientation. If we narrow the definition to make it suit our needs, we arrive at something like this: bisexuals are persons who are sexually oriented toward (defined as "seek sexual stimulation from/with") persons of either sex. This one will work for me. If someone is only participating in same-sex stimulation for someone else's benefit or enjoyment, then they are not actively seeking same-sex stimulation. Only someone who actively seeks out stimulation from or with persons of both sexes could be called bisexual. By this definition, no experience is required. Even if I've never been with another man, I am actively seeking same-sex and opposite sex arrangements. That makes me bisexual. Note that we didn't need to attach an emotional bond, or lack thereof, to this definition. It's neat and tidy and does the job well, in my estimation.
    IonSawmill@Yahoo.com
    He is "Tainted Homily" - She is "Deal Earner"

  18. Back To Top | #43

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    Well, when it comes to sex with a lady, I say

    I would welcome a reply through my page if any lady would like to help me find out.

    But I can remember swinging privately after being at a club with a couple then from Syracuse NY. This was to be a MfM affair and he had a very large cock. As it was she wanted me to go down on him as she said it turned her on. I attempted to but could not "get into it" all that much. But I did it because I did like her.
    It is just a big turn on for a guy to scoop a woman up in his arm while she is next to him and hold her so she rests her head on his chest and he can caress her back and butt and feel that smooth flesh.
    Men, I think, are just to busy being competitive and the MM sex is still not the same as FF sex. FF sex is more like sharing in an experience, not one having dominion over the other. Mutual masturbation I think comes closer to the FF sex thing in the male world, and we can get into that.
    facelick
    cek
    But, when all is said and done
    my biggest thrill is seeing the lady in question estactic with pleasure.

  19. Back To Top | #44
    Purveyors of Perviness ionsawmill's Avatar
    Status
    He's Bisexual She's still thinking about it. They are happily married!
    SLS Handle
    ionsawmill

    Default Labels, Labels, everywhere!

    Apparently, we're not the only ones having problems with labels:

    __________________________________________________ _________
    From the San Francisco Chronicle

    Nuances of gay identities reflected in new language
    'Homosexual' is passť in a 'boi's' life

    Rona Marech, Chronicle Staff Writer - Sunday, February 8, 2004

    First, there was the term "homosexual," then "gay" and
    "lesbian" then the once taboo "dyke" and "queer."

    Now, all bets are off.

    With the universe of gender and sexual identities
    expanding, a gay youth culture emerging, acceptance of
    gays rising and label loyalty falling, the gay lexicon
    has exploded with scores of new words and blended
    phrases that delineate every conceivable stop on the
    identity spectrum -- at least for this week.

    Someone who is "genderqueer," for example, views the
    gender options as more than just male and female or
    doesn't fit into the binary male-female system. A
    "trannydyke" is a transgender person (whose gender is
    different than the one assigned at birth) attracted to
    people with a more feminine gender, while a
    "pansexual" is attracted to people of multiple
    genders. A "boi" describes a boyish gay guy or a
    biological female with a male presentation; and
    "heteroflexible" refers to a straight person with a
    queer mind-set.

    The list of terms, which have hotly contested
    definitions, goes on:

    "FTM" for female to male,
    "MTF" for male to female,
    "boydyke"
    "trannyboy"
    "trannyfag"
    "multigendered"
    "polygendered"
    "queerboi"
    "transboi"
    "transguy"
    "transman"
    "half-dyke"
    "bi-dyke"
    "stud"
    "stem"
    "trisexual"
    "omnisexual"
    "multisexual"

    "The language thing is tricky," said Thom Lynch, the
    director of the San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual,
    Transgender Community Center. "I feel sorry for
    straight people."

    Tricky, maybe, but also healthy and empowering, said
    Carolyn Laub, the director of the Gay-Straight
    Alliance Network, which links gay and lesbian student
    clubs in the state.

    "We in society and in our generation are developing
    new understandings of sexual orientation and gender
    identities and what that means to us," she said. "We
    don't really have enough language to describe that;
    therefore, we have to create new words."

    For those back in the linguistic dark ages still
    wondering what's wrong with "homosexual," the
    evolution of queer identity language has progressed
    something like this: "Homosexual" sounded pathological
    and clinical, so activists went about creating their
    own words, starting with "gay" and "lesbian." That was
    well and good, but terms like "dyke" and "queer" had
    an appealing spikiness and served double-duty by
    stripping the sting from words that had heretofore
    been considered unspeakably nasty.

    The adjustment took time for some: As recently as
    2002, visitors at the San Francisco community center
    routinely complained about a sign proudly pronouncing
    it "the queerest place on Earth," Lynch said. But in
    the Bay Area, in the age of "Queer Eye for the
    Straight Guy," that sort of sensitivity is beginning
    to seem almost quaint. Even some straight people have
    adopted the word because they have gay parents or an
    affinity for gay culture.

    These days, "queer" is especially handy because it's
    vague enough to encompass just about everyone. The
    word and its newfangled linguistic cousins have become
    indispensable as the transgender population in the Bay
    Area has grown exponentially - into the tens of
    thousands, advocates say - and sexual identities have
    become increasingly complicated.

    "If you're not a man or woman, words like 'gay' or
    'lesbian' don't fit you anymore," said Sam Davis,
    founder of United Genders of The Universe, a support
    group and speakers bureau. "The words from just a few
    years ago aren't adequate to talk about who we are,
    where we're coming from and who we like."

    Dee Braur, a 17-year-old with a tuft of greenish hair,
    calls herself "half-dyke." "I'm bisexual but I lean
    more toward women than men," she said. Men, she added,
    annoy her.

    "Trisexual" also works, she said with a snicker: "I'll
    try anything once and if I like it, I'll try it again
    and again and again."

    Andy Duran, 19, said: "People are feeling like, what's
    the point of labeling? If I must label, let me create
    my own."

    That said, Duran uses "queer" -- among others --
    because "it's the one that leaves the most for
    discovery... It's not really limiting. I can date a
    woman or a man. I can date someone who's transgender
    or genderqueer."

    Tiffany Solomon, who is 19 and technically a lesbian,
    is put off by the word "lesbian."

    "I think of a shorthaired woman who wears flannel.
    It's bad to a degree, but it's something that becomes
    embedded when you're young and queer and look on TV
    and you only have stereotypes to go on," she said. She
    calls herself a "metrosexual" -- the word used to
    describe straight men who have a gay sensibility when
    it comes to fashion and grooming -- because she also
    identifies with gay male culture.

    Justin, who is 19 and didn't want to use his last name
    because he's not out to his family as transgender,
    calls himself a "boi" -- with an "i" -- because he
    feels like a boy -- with a "y" -- but "I don't have
    the boy parts, as much as I wish I did."

    "I'm still learning the ropes of just being me," he
    added.

    Lynn Breedlove, a musician and author, spent years as
    a "butch dyke," but nowadays, he prefers to
    interchange pronouns and, depending on his mood, goes
    back and forth between the old label and "trannyboy."
    "Because I'm like Peter Pan -eternally youthful but
    I'm always played by a girl," Breedlove said. "It's
    more a faggy aesthetic thing. I don't want hair on my
    face and chest. Ooh, I don't want to be transman -
    that sounds really furry."

    While Breedlove is old enough to have an age complex
    -he explained his refusal to divulge his age as a
    "rock star thing" - a lot of the identity fluidity,
    name mania and word invention is bubbling up from the
    next generation of queer youth.

    "Now that community resources are in place and public
    acceptance has increased, it's more feasible for
    adolescents to come out during adolescence," said
    Caitlin Ryan, a researcher at San Francisco State
    University who has studied lesbian, gay and bisexual
    youth. "What we're getting in the LGBT community is
    the power of youth. It's their expression and
    exuberance and energy and also their contribution to
    the culture."

    It makes sense that youth, in particular, are coming
    up with new words and trying them on, considering that
    "identity development is one of the most important
    developmental tasks of adolescence," she said.

    Growing acceptance of gays and lesbians has also
    encouraged idiosyncrasy, Ryan said. "Identities are
    very personal. That was much less true 20 years ago,
    when identity was more around community. Now that
    there's a community, a vibrant one with resources,
    there's more room for personal identity. Before, the
    tribe was so much more important," she said.

    To further complicate matters, race and ethnicity
    affect who is using which words. Some people of color
    prefer the word "stud" to "butch," meaning a
    masculine-identified lesbian. Which makes someone who
    falls between a stud and a femme -- a more "feminine"
    lesbian -- a "stem."

    And genderbending and genderqueerness aren't as
    prevalent among people of color, said Mateo Cruz,
    who's Latino and a staff member at the Pacific Center,
    Berkeley's LGBT center.

    In these communities, "queer" and the terms it spawned
    have a reputation of being "white," so some shy away
    from them in favor of "same-gender-loving people" or
    "men who sleep with men," or -- among Spanish-speakers
    -- "homosexual," which is also a Spanish word.

    "A lot of the stereotypes of what a 'queer' person is
    supposed to be, especially in mainstream media, is
    always a white person," said Solomon, who is African
    American. "A lot of issues people of color have with
    their families is their parents are saying, 'If you're
    gay, then you want to be white.' Because that's all
    they see. So yeah, 'queer' is not a word that a lot of
    people of color use."

    No wonder Cruz sometimes grows frustrated when he
    leads discussions about appropriate language in
    anti-homophobia workshops. It can take an hour for his
    savviest students to list the "hundreds" of words they
    know for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender
    people. Then the discussion about what the words mean,
    who can use them and whether they're polite, often
    drags on ad nauseam.

    When Cruz's coding system -- circles, big X's and
    dotted lines to connote cool, uncool, and
    sometimes-cool terms -- inevitably breaks down, he
    throws up his hands.

    "However people self-identify," he tells students, "we
    have to respect."

    What it all means
    Definitions of many words in the gay lexicon are hotly
    contested. Here is a sample:

    Genderqueer: Someone who views the gender options as
    more than just male and female or who doesn't fit into
    the binary male-female system.

    Transgender: An umbrella term for transgression of the
    binary gender system. May include surgical, hormonal
    or nonhormonal changes that result in a gender
    identity different from the one assigned at birth.

    Pansexual: Someone attracted to people of multiple
    genders.

    Trannydyke: A transgender person attracted to people
    with a more feminine gender.

    Trannyfag: A transgender person attracted to people
    with a more masculine gender.

    Boi: A boyish gay guy or a biological female with a
    boyish presentation.

    Heteroflexible: A straight person with a queer mind-set.

  20. Back To Top | #45
    She's a lurker; he's not leftcoastcouple's Avatar
    Status
    Married Couple (But mostly Mr.)

    Default

    Originally posted by bser
    hey great topic. i agree with dave & lea im also bi. there is a diff between bi & gay. im not into kissing and hugging etc with another guy but have no prob in a 3some or moresome. i have been with a couple of guys one on one blowjobs are great done the anal thing - on top- but dont really get into that. its more fun when a woman is there either watching or teasing or joining in. dp's are great knowing she is getting double pleasure is what gets me off. it feels good to me to know the other person is getting blown away. you have to be secure with yourself to enjoy being with other people anyway. dont worry about whose touching who or who has the biggest dick. i get off watching 2 women enjoy each other so i can see how she would feel watching 2 guys.
    Hope I'm not too late jumping in here, but it took me some time to get up the guts. I'm going WAY out on a limb here, because I've never discussed this with anyone but my wife--not even in a semi-anonymous way.

    I grew up as many men do in this country, adopting the mindset that homosexuality was black and white--you were either gay or straight--and ridiculing anyone even suspected of being a "fag." However, after the first time my wife and I played with other guys, I was forced to examine my stereotypes. Because the fact is, much as I hated to admit it to myself, I had a sexual response to the guys as well as the overall situation.

    There was no contact between me and the guys and I didn't do anything to let on, but the realization was there. Shortly afterwards, I began having occasional homoerotic dreams and fantasies, and I even went so far as to rent a few bisexual videotapes, too scared to rent "gay" ones but still wanting to gauge my reaction to the MM content.

    End result was this: I came to the conclusion that I'm at times turned on by cocks and the thought of manual or oral contact with a man. Yet, the thought of anal (giving or receiving) with a guy is NOT a turnon, and the thought of general intimacy with a guy--touching and particularly kissing--is actually a major turnoff. And while I find that it's not all guys (in fact very few), it's a relief to be able to be honest with myself, to be able to admit, when I see that rare guy, "Yeah, I would," particularly in a MMF with my wife. What Mr. Alura described--giving oral to (my) wife while she takes it doggy style from another guy--is a huge fantasy of mine, and if we were all into it and it felt right, I could see myself going a bit further, given the convenience of the position.

    I've never acted upon any of this and don't know if I ever will. My wife knew about this realization as it evolved and is completely accepting of it, yet there seems no interest on her part to see anything done about it.

    But I'm wondering: Am I alone in being turned on by certain bisexual activities (manual, oral) and turned off by others (anal, kissing, carressing)? The former gets me excited, while the latter leaves me thinking what else Mr. Alura said, that men are "hard, muscular, hairy and yucky.

    PS--I think the answer to the original question posted by phone bugs is clearly homophobia. No need to elaborate on that.

  21. Back To Top | #46
    Purveyors of Perviness ionsawmill's Avatar
    Status
    He's Bisexual She's still thinking about it. They are happily married!
    SLS Handle
    ionsawmill

    Default

    Originally posted by leftcoastcouple
    But I'm wondering: Am I alone in being turned on by certain bisexual activities (manual, oral) and turned off by others (anal, kissing, carressing)? The former gets me excited, while the latter leaves me thinking what else Mr. Alura said, that men are "hard, muscular, hairy and yucky.
    You're not alone. Bisexuality is as unique as bisexuals. In other words, everybody has their do's and don'ts. It's not different than hetero preferences. There are some guys who won't perform oral sex for their wives or girlfriends. They just won't go there. Some women absolutely refuse to perform fellatio. They just won't go there.

    In the same manner, there are bisexual and even gay men who just will not have anal sex. There are some who will be "tops" but not "bottoms", like me.

    There are many other variations on the theme. As you can see from the above posts, some men will do oral and anal but won't kiss.

    Decide where your limits are, and do whatever feels comfortable to you.
    IonSawmill@Yahoo.com
    He is "Tainted Homily" - She is "Deal Earner"

  22. Back To Top | #47

    Default

    Originally posted by leftcoastcouple
    Hope I'm not too late jumping in here, but it took me some time to get up the guts.
    ...
    But I'm wondering: Am I alone in being turned on by certain bisexual activities (manual, oral) and turned off by others (anal, kissing, carressing)? The former gets me excited, while the latter leaves me thinking what else Mr. Alura said, that men are "hard, muscular, hairy and yucky.
    Mr Leftcoast...
    First, no, it is NEVER too late to jump into a conversation such as this one... attitudes and people change, so there is always a need to revisit old threads like this one on occasion. Thanks for offering your point of view
    Second, congratulations ( ) on taking what is an incredible step forward for anyone, especially a man in this day & age - admitting to people other than loved ones that you have a sexual response to bisexual activities!
    You and I are much more alike than we are different. Although I am curious about anal, I don't really know if I would ever go through with it. But I'll readily (or, perhaps, greedily??) suck a guy's cock, but kissing or intimacy with a guy just doesn't do it for me. It is like that beer commercial for Bud Light (I think!!!) from a couple years ago...
    Man #1: "I love you man!"
    Man #2: "You still aren't getting my bud Light."
    If I want any intimacy with another guy, I'll just pull up the anchor & spend 6 or 8 hours on the ocean fishing... that's intimate enough for my tastes!

    Oh... ionsawmill... thanks for that article on the sexual labels. It was a good read, both pleasant and funny at times. It also reminded me that, when that girlfriend and I spoke about the gender mixes when it came to jobs around the house, I had come up with poly-sexual - one that is simultaneously open to sex with both women and men. I suppose that, based on the info in that article, I might also have to add transgenders to that list

    Jerry
    BiCoupleNJ
    From the beautiful shores of Central NJ :-)

  23. Back To Top | #48
    Purveyors of Perviness ionsawmill's Avatar
    Status
    He's Bisexual She's still thinking about it. They are happily married!
    SLS Handle
    ionsawmill

    Default

    I saw this porn vid on HBO's Real Sex one time that featured two beautiful women kissing and caressing each other's firm breasts while splashing about in a large tub. They were gorgeous! I was thinking, "These girls are hot!" Debussy's "Arabesque No. 1" was playing on a piano in the background. They locked in a passionate embrace, standing as they did so and revealing a couple of large cocks!

    All I could think was, "These girls are hot!" Even after they revealed their "secrets"(as they say in Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil), I still couldn't think of them as guys. I guess first impressions last the longest. Since I saw them from the waist up for the first few minutes, they were women; women with penises.

    I still can't hear Arabesque No. 1 without thinking of that. It haunts me to this day.

  24. Back To Top | #49

    Default

    Originally posted by ionsawmill
    All I could think was, "These girls are hot!" Even after they revealed their "secrets", I still couldn't think of them as guys.
    Living in the heavily alt lifestyle central Jersey Shore, one can see all sorts of things, including some of the most incredibly delicious women on earth. Well... they LOOK like women!!!!
    Normally, it is so easy to tell a TG/TV/TS because there are only so many ways to hide large hands, a bulge in your crotch or an Adam's Apple. But I have seen some TG/TV/TS online and locally that would make me think twice about ever kissing a woman without first asking what was between 'her' legs. LOL!
    Jerry
    BiCoupleNJ
    From the beautiful shores of Central NJ :-)

  25. Back To Top | #50

    Default

    Watch a female playing with a female is a strong turn on for me... while watch two men playing together is more complicated. The fear to be judged as a gay makes me feel embarrassed with this...

    Am I bi curious ? not sure but may be... How would I react if a guy was giving me a blow job ? not sure I should appreciate it because of the guilty feeling... Should I be pleased to give him the same favor... I don't think so!

    Now things are slightly different with transexuals or "she-males"... things could be different here because I regard them more like females than like males even if they have a cock...

    They look like a female, the have often a female body with long legs and big boobs... They can look very sexy and attractive, so - in such case - I suppose I could have sex with a true transexual (but not with a male disguised like a female)... into my opinion and my concern there is a huge difference between a "she-male" and a male disguised... in the first case I can have the fantasy to play with "her" while in the second case I shall not play with "him".

    Kinky isn't it...

    JC

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