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  1. Back To Top | #1

    Default Loving your swinging partner?

    My partner felt she loved her swinging partner. He was the 1st guy she was with apart from me. On reflection she feels it was just lust and admits she does like the guy a lot. I don't mind that, and would expect that.

    Have any of you ever fallen in love with your swinging friends or has your partner? Or even felt mildly in love? And if so, how has that affected your feelings towards them/relationship with him/her?

    Just wondering if falling in love is a big no-no in swinging.

    John

  2. Back To Top | #2

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnUK1
    Have any of you ever fallen in love with your swinging friends or has your partner? Or even felt mildly in love? And if so, how has that affected your feelings towards them/relationship with him/her?

    Just wondering if falling in love is a big no-no in swinging.

    John
    Hi John, There's no one way of thinking in swinging (so many styles, grey areas), but by-and-large, swingers usually keep emotional attachments out of it, or strive to. Otherwise, it's venturing off into something else - Polyamory.

    Here was an excellent conversation I think you'd like to read - Emotional Attachments and how to handle them. This conversation delves into all the questions you asked.

    Best wishes.

  3. Back To Top | #3

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Yes, it would be a big no-no for us and I think in swinging generally. When you incorporate love of a third partner (or more) then that becomes what is known as polyamory. polyamory is a seperate thing from swinging, although their are some polyamory people who are also swingers.
    R (He is R, she is P)

  4. Back To Top | #4

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Thanks for the link, Tybee Swing!

  5. Back To Top | #5

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Sorry, I am a little late with this advice, but one of the "rules" my wife and I had when swinging was if either one of us ever felt that the other one had strong feelings for someone we were swinging with, then we would just quit seeing that couple. We NEVER wanted to put our relationship in any danger.

  6. Back To Top | #6

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    I've thought of this scenario a lot and what would happen if by chance, this might happen in our relationship.

    It's been a LONG time since I've had a different partner. I think it's true for most women, at least for me, that you have to have some sort of feelings for you partner, even it's just friendship. I do believe that that friendship might go over a fine line and turn into more amorous feelings; especially if you see this person over and over again for friendship or for fun.

    Falling in love for us would be a big no-no. If I felt I was having more than friendship feelings for my partner, I would first of all, tell my husband what I was feeling, and secondly, tell our partner that we'd have to quit for a while and take a much needed break.

    I will not sacrifice my marriage for a threesome or moresome.
    Dave & Holly

  7. Back To Top | #7

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Susan here--I have often felt emotions for the person I'm having sex with. I don't 'meet and mate' (well,one crazy weekend I did, but that's another story) so I have some type of relationship with the person. I simply know that these emotions are biochemical and psychological and not genuine, per se. I acknowledge them in my own mind, but realize it's part of the fantasy and that they're not to be indulged or acted on. I don't fight them or repress them either, I use them to enjoy the sex even more and that's using it in a positive way.

  8. Back To Top | #8

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Most of our playmates we have no real emotions for.

    One set we have known and played with for 5 years now. I wouldn't call it Polyamory but its more than just friends. I think it would be more odd after 5 years of close friendship and sex if we didn't have some feelings for them. Its not love, if they leave there will be no broken hearts, but we will miss them more than any vanilla friends.

  9. Back To Top | #9

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    We've been there... and it was ok for us. Just that we both developed feelings towards the third one (and she corresponded). But as it was said, this actually was a polyamory relationship.

    I believe this have to do with what do you feel able to threat your marriage. In our case, I cannot figure out of anything able to treat our marriage (but having a careless attitude ourselves, but that'd be another story).

  10. Back To Top | #10

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    When we first entertained swinging, we signed up on SLS and went to a few Meet n Greets that were always hosted by the same two couples. They were all very hospitable and it was evident that they were a 'foursome'. Their children all knew each other, etc...

    About 6 months later, their SLS profiles both posted a"No Longer Looking" tag line, and come to find out, they had permanently swapped partners in 'real life'.

    V

  11. Back To Top | #11

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    I think many view falling in love with a playmate as a no-no in swinging, but that is mostly because swinging differs from polyamory in the amount of affection felt for your partner(s). I feel also that when stronger emotions come into play you have now crossed the line into a polyamorous relationship.

    This has happened with us. Mrs. WS got attached to the first couple we swung with, and I feel this had allot to do with her conservative upbringing and the need to not feel dirty and slutty for having and enjoying sex outside of her marriage. This soon faded away though.

    Although about a year ago we started swinging with a single male that she did fall for. They carried-on for several months but he eventually fell for the wife of friends of ours and they have had an openly polyamorous relationship since about December. It has worked well for them. The break-up for my wife was really hard on her. She was crushed well because... she was dumped. And she felt she shouldn't have felt that way and the guilt of that even made the break-up worse.

    How did it effect me? At first I was a titch jealous, but as the relationship continued and I fully realized she wasn't going to leave me for him, and he was making her happy in this part of her life that she needed fulfillment in at that time, I became comfortable with it. I was friends with him also and we would go out as a threesome and play that way sometimes or sometimes she would see him alone. It was all very open and above-board. We are still friends with him, we just don't play with him anymore.

    So, yes it can happen, and it can work. It just really depends on the people involved, and everybody is different.

    Mr. WS
    "Sex is something you do, sexuality is something you are." ~ Anna Freud
    Blog: Bigger Love

  12. Back To Top | #12

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Quote Originally Posted by WesternSwing
    ...and I feel this had allot to do with her conservative upbringing and the need to not feel dirty and slutty for having and enjoying sex outside of her marriage. This soon faded away though...
    Mr. WS
    How long did it take, Mr WS (or Mrs. WS?) I feel my wifes conservatibve upbringing has something to do with her reluctance to fully embrace the lifestyle. It also may have something to do with her mother's behavior when she was younger. It may mostly have something to do with her feeling that what she's doing is wrong. When I hear her say that, I just freeze and realize that this won't work, and I tell her that, but then she says she wants to continue on. When she says she liked a guy she was with in the past, I'm overjoyed. I honestly expect that she will (and I will) like a person alot...hopefully more than one. I really hate to fuck someone and know that it was just a fuck. I think it's natural to expect that some feelings will be there...why else would you want to see someone again?

    Regardless, I am trying to go with the flow...

    M.D.
    "Just nod if you can hear me..."

    David Gilmour

  13. Back To Top | #13

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Quote Originally Posted by DBL D
    How long did it take, Mr WS (or Mrs. WS?)
    We were married for six years before we started swinging. I didn't have the conservative upbringing she did and thus I've always had a very liberal ideal of sex. Over the six years Mrs. WS became more and more daring and open and started to shed allot of that conservative guilt that her mother had openly placed on her about her body and sex. So when the time came that we decided to take the plunge it was more growth for her. It was kind of the natural progression I guess. It got to the point where she wanted to expirement with her bi-side. The experiences I've related above weren't even on the radar scope at the time, but happened.

    She still fights with some guilt every now and then, but for the most part has really put most of it behind her. I'm glad. Everything she is doing, and has done, is wonderful. I have relished and rejoiced in her growth as a whole woman.

    Mr. WS
    "Sex is something you do, sexuality is something you are." ~ Anna Freud
    Blog: Bigger Love

  14. Back To Top | #14

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Quote Originally Posted by DBL D
    I honestly expect that she will (and I will) like a person alot...hopefully more than one. I really hate to fuck someone and know that it was just a fuck. I think it's natural to expect that some feelings will be there...why else would you want to see someone again?

    Regardless, I am trying to go with the flow...

    M.D.
    I wholly agree with you.

    I believe we bump against a "naming convention" here. We all develop feelings towards the people we have around, but from what I've seen amnong swingers (and not only in this board), the word "love" it's what seems to be forbidden and not the feelings themselves.

    Of course, there are people who as soon as they recognize certain feelings they stop playing as a preventive measure. It is ok, but sometimes I wonder what could happen if they explore those feelings. I am pretty sure that a solid marriage wouldn't be at risk because of this. In the other hand, I understad that since we look for having fun, such an exploration would be "off topic", so... why you'd try?

    We have this couple we use to play with, they become great friends of us besides the sex. They have this aproach where they dislike feelings involved, while we're open to explore our feelings as well. Some time ago I was talking with the female half of them about our friendship, and I told her "I know this may freak you out, but guys, we love you two". She gave me her histation look and I told her "well... we're great friends, some of us may not want to have sex anymore but I would like to have you as vanilla friends anyway, so the sex, even when great, is accesory, we both trust you two, and I cannot figure out a reason for our friendship to break appart, since whatever may happen, we all feel confident enough as to talk about it. I know the word love is freaking, but please, explain to me why it wouldn't fit".

    I know several members could say "ok, dude, that's great but it isn't love", they can bring me arguments to support this, but I believe that, ultimatelly, those arguments would be grounded in sutile definitions that are there just to prove the word doesn't fit.

    Perhaps the problem is that in our culture we're not supposed to talk too much about feelings. Since we're supposed to develop certain feelings only with our spouse and closest relatives, we're not supposed to have other feelings stronger enough as to develop a language usefull to tell appart one strong feeling from another. It's like travelling in time to the Middle Age in Europe, where sex was so forbidden than you had very few words to describe a sexual relationship: you cannot talk about a clitoris, nor a vaginal orgasm, nor about technics for giving oral sex, just because you lack the vocabulary to make yourself understand.

    But we're swingers, today, and we engage in relationsips that wasn't supposed to happen. We develop levels of intimacy with others that were supposed to be reserved to our spouses, and it's natural that there will be some feelings involved. However, we're in the Middle Age of swinging, and we still accept the vanilla vocabulary and stick to the vanilla language, thus finding ourselves forced to tell appart shades of colors by claiming they're white or black.

    Perhaps if we were having more words to describe the shades of love, it would be way more easy to deal with those issues.

  15. Back To Top | #15

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Great post sereneiders.

    I've said before that some swingers are poly, and some poly are swingers, but not all swingers are poly and not all polys are swinger. We see this often. Being we're "poly-friendly" we have been accepted into the poly community here and go to many poly events like pot lucks and movie nights, etc. Of course it helps that two of Mrs. WS high school friends are both poly.

    We do see that some polys when not involved in a poly relationship tend to swing, but not all. These same couples when involved in a poly relationship do not swing.

    What you don't see a whole lot of is swingers in poly relationships. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said:
    Perhaps the problem is that in our culture we're not supposed to talk too much about feelings. Since we're supposed to develop certain feelings only with our spouse and closest relatives, we're not supposed to have other feelings stronger enough as to develop a language usefull to tell appart one strong feeling from another.
    .
    Society and conventionality have molded us into thinking that we are not supposed to love anyone but our spouse. Hell, many think you are not supposed to lust anyone but your SO.

    I think you were also spot-on with:
    Of course, there are people who as soon as they recognize certain feelings they stop playing as a preventive measure. It is ok, but sometimes I wonder what could happen if they explore those feelings. I am pretty sure that a solid marriage wouldn't be at risk because of this.
    It is really exploring uncharted waters, but in our case, it has been a very worthwhile journey. Although Mrs. WS and I have a great marriage, I have seen the positive effects being loved by, and loving more than just one has had on her. This other person provided something to her that I couldn't at the time, but not everything I can (make sense?). He filled a role in her life that she needed at that time. She was very, very, very happy during this period. Her being that happy made me very happy and made me feel really good about myself that I was a big party of this happiness. It is a journey of the ego-self to the Higher Self-Self. It was as much a growth experience for me as it was for her.

    And you know what? It has made our marriage even stronger than just swinging has. I would encourage Mrs. WS to seek such a relationship again.

    I know that within the swinger lifestyle poly relationships are looked upon with great skepticism, but I think that it is because some don't understand the whole dynamics of it. Like swinging, it isn't for everyone.

    Mr. WS
    "Sex is something you do, sexuality is something you are." ~ Anna Freud
    Blog: Bigger Love

  16. Back To Top | #16

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    While being poly/semi-poly could be great, I think this thread may well be a 'turn off' thread for new swingers.

    It seems one of the big fears of swingers is having their spouse fall inlove with their swing partner. For us, and I think most swingers, we have seperated the 'love' from sex. Casual sex is just that, casual, the emotional attachment/guilt issue has been removed from the equation and that needs to be stressed.

    One of the best parts of swinging, at least for us, was finding out that our relationship was not based on a foundation of sex, we love each other more than ever because of this.

  17. Back To Top | #17

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicup
    While being poly/semi-poly could be great, I think this thread may well be a 'turn off' thread for new swingers.

    It seems one of the big fears of swingers is having their spouse fall inlove with their swing partner. For us, and I think most swingers, we have seperated the 'love' from sex. Casual sex is just that, casual, the emotional attachment/guilt issue has been removed from the equation and that needs to be stressed.

    One of the best parts of swinging, at least for us, was finding out that our relationship was not based on a foundation of sex, we love each other more than ever because of this.
    I agree with you.

    The fact is, feelings are involved, and we have to learn to deal with them, either by means of rules preventing them to develop, or by means of analyzing those feelings to understand and isolate the threats we fear.

    Some singers, like myself, are poly-friendly (and as WesternSwing said, some poly aren't swinger-friendly). It's just another flavor of swinging, as there are swingers who kiss partners and swingers wuo doesn't.

    Now, if you believe we shouldn't discuss this flavor here, I'd have to ask you where we'd supposed to do it, and moreover, which other flavors that don't fit your tastes shouldn't be discussed here as well.

    Anyway, as far as I know, it isn't the forum purpose to advocate for swinging nor to make propaganda, but to discuss the swingers issues. This IS a swinger issue, those new swingers will have to choose how to deal with feelings. For those not wanting to deny the feelings, or those who actually believe it isn't that easy to avoid them, not finding our "poly-friendly" oppinions in the forum, bot only the "poly-unfriendly" oppinions, would do more harm that good (unless you actually want them to NOT swing based on those fears just to minimize the chance of bumping against them in a bed).

    In any case, I find your posts very consistent: for some topics you dislike the idea of discussing in deep, and I wonder if this isn't because you have your own structures that you are confortable with and you don't want anyone to challenge them. I can even correlate this post with other discussions we had before, and it is interensting the way you advocate for letting us be lead by our fears and the stereotypes instead of broaden our sight to be able to understand before reaching to a conclussion.

    You have your own recipe on how to deal with the "feelings" issue, it is enough for you and it is ok. But then you believe that it should be enough for everyone around, that "new swingers" wouldn't be able to deal with the issue in any other ways than yours, that if the poly idea is a "turn off" for you, it must be a "turn off" for others as well. Even the words you choose, a "turn off", equalize rejection with indiference (i.e., for some the feelings development could be just something unwanted without leading them to rejection of swinging because of the risk), so you end up purposing me to shut up and keep the new swingers in the dark about othe ways to deal with feelings.

    I don't remember who's the member whose signature say something like "fears are the illness, knowledge is the cure".

    Let's avoid "protecting" new swingers by hidding information. Let's give them more credit, after all they're adults as well, and who knows? They may be even brighter than us two and some of them could give us a better insight for those things that we suppose to "know better" than them.

  18. Back To Top | #18

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Quote Originally Posted by sereneiders

    Now, if you believe we shouldn't discuss this flavor here, I'd have to ask you where we'd supposed to do it, and moreover, which other flavors that don't fit your tastes shouldn't be discussed here as well.

    Not a lot of time to get into this right now, being I'm at work, but just a quick note would be you assume a bit to much into the motivation of my posting. It wasn't that you shouldn't discuss it, in fact its a good discussion, but that new people reading this shouldn't assume that most swingers are open to a poly relationship, or that it is a common development in swinging. We have 100's of lurkers, and really only a handful of active posters. I think this gives a somewhat skewed version of what swinging is/can be.

  19. Back To Top | #19

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicup
    Not a lot of time to get into this right now, being I'm at work, but just a quick note would be you assume a bit to much into the motivation of my posting. It wasn't that you shouldn't discuss it, in fact its a good discussion, but that new people reading this shouldn't assume that most swingers are open to a poly relationship, or that it is a common development in swinging. We have 100's of lurkers, and really only a handful of active posters. I think this gives a somewhat skewed version of what swinging is/can be.
    Ok. I agree, this may confuse someone on what's swinging about, so:

    For the record:

    SWINGING DOESN'T IMPLY A POLYAMORAL RELATIONSHIP.

    Most swingers doesn't want to get emotionally involved with their playmates, and this is the norm among swingers.

    Very few swingers would allow to get emotionally involved with their partners, and some of those very few would even pursue this. However, since they're aware that this isn't the norm, they would AVOID getting emotionally involved with other swingers who stick to the norm.




    Now, you'd agree with me the later sentence deserve to be there. Those swingers who are poly-friendly wouldn't pursuit to get emotionally involved with non poly-friendly swingers, the same way that swingers wouldn't purstuit to get into the bed of vanilla marriages. Thinking the opposite, in both cases, would be a prejudice.

    In any case, the 100's of lurkers around the board may get to read some posts where the odds of swinging bring to surface. If they were up to stick to the first thing they read, then it's very likely that swinging isn't for them anyway. Otherwise the forum administrators should have to add clarifying posts in every thread, "for the record". The fact is, the lurker who's really curious about swinging would have to gather a lot of information before making up his/her mind, and the forum have plenty of oppinions posted as for them to understand what's swinging about, and they have the chance to post a question asking us to clarify their doubts.

    I am not a swinging advocator. I already said "swinging isn't for you" in many lurkers' posts. Lurkers deserve to get to know all and every issue more experienced swingers have, and if they're curious about swinging, they have a lot of homework to do. Let's them do it.

  20. Back To Top | #20

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Quote Originally Posted by WesternSwing
    We were married for six years before we started swinging. I didn't have the conservative upbringing she did and thus I've always had a very liberal ideal of sex. Over the six years Mrs. WS became more and more daring and open and started to shed allot of that conservative guilt that her mother had openly placed on her about her body and sex. So when the time came that we decided to take the plunge it was more growth for her. It was kind of the natural progression I guess. It got to the point where she wanted to expirement with her bi-side. The experiences I've related above weren't even on the radar scope at the time, but happened.

    She still fights with some guilt every now and then, but for the most part has really put most of it behind her. I'm glad. Everything she is doing, and has done, is wonderful. I have relished and rejoiced in her growth as a whole woman.

    Mr. WS
    Thank you Mr. WS, but what I was asking was how long it took after you started swinging before she became comfortable with the idea?

    I'm not intending to hijack the thread but I think the problems are somehow related to each other. I don't mean that I expect Fem D to have to fall in love with someone in order to really feel comfortable with them, just as I wouldn't say that I couldn't do a one night stand. I just like it more when I know that the lady really likes how I treated her and wants to see me again. I just say that if you want to see someone in particular again that indicates a level of feelings. Not love...but strong desire. We all know how many different ways there are to love a person(s), and now we all know there are even more ways to do it! (after we have swung for a bit.) I just don't see a problem with being into another couple.


    There have ben a few couples who have contacted us who admit that they are looking for a LTR...to me that means that feelings will develop. We say that we want to become friends with couples. We have found out just what that means to different couples. The bottom line is that if you aren't comfortable with any of it you shouldn't do it. I don't think that this should scare away beginners. It tells them what to expect and how to deal with it when it happens. You can find all kinds of swinger/polys out there. It still doesn't meant that you are a match just because of the similarity of that in your profile.

    Male D
    "Just nod if you can hear me..."

    David Gilmour

  21. Back To Top | #21

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Man! We humans sure have a difficult time the the 'love' word!

    I equate love to be that devotion and committment to someone. The feeling you also have for kids or even pets.

    But, when we meet someone that turns us on and then also like them as a person we sometimes think we love them.

    We can unjoy someone's company, enjoy tremendously having a sexual relationship with them, and even enjoy a long time intimacy without loving them.

    I'm the type who doesn't like to have sex with someone I don't know at all. Been there, done that, and didn't find it anymore rewarding than masturbating.

    And for swinging partners the folks you really know will make it less likely for anyone to feel threatened or jealous. You know the other couple has a great relationship and respect it. They know you do too and respect yours. But you know that there's an attraction for each other's spouses too and can enjoy it.

    You like this other spouse. You enjoy being with them, flirting, touching, and making love. But you don't want to live the rest of your life with them as man and wife. You're making love, not in love.
    58 years old and married for 34 of 'em.
    "Caged contentedly, yet still looking out beyond the bars."

  22. Back To Top | #22

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Quote Originally Posted by sereneiders
    I believe we bump against a "naming convention" here. We all develop feelings towards the people we have around, but from what I've seen amnong swingers (and not only in this board), the word "love" it's what seems to be forbidden and not the feelings themselves.
    Hi sereneiders, I disagree that it's just the "L word" that's avoided by many swingers and not the feelings, themselves. Many of us just do not want the emotional attachments beyond being buddies with other couples. We want the romantic/emotional attachment to be reserved for our mates, only. We have physical sex with others just for fun, recreationally. It's just a shared activity, like vanilla friend's shared activities. Many people, including women, can separate love and sex with no problem. I feel that this should be respected by those who DO like the love feelings with their swing partners and prefer that.

    Quote Originally Posted by sereneiders
    We have this couple we use to play with, they become great friends of us besides the sex. They have this aproach where they dislike feelings involved, while we're open to explore our feelings as well. Some time ago I was talking with the female half of them about our friendship, and I told her "I know this may freak you out, but guys, we love you two". She gave me her histation look and I told her "well... we're great friends, some of us may not want to have sex anymore but I would like to have you as vanilla friends anyway, so the sex, even when great, is accesory, we both trust you two, and I cannot figure out a reason for our friendship to break appart, since whatever may happen, we all feel confident enough as to talk about it. I know the word love is freaking, but please, explain to me why it wouldn't fit".
    If they don't want to share emotional attachments outside of their relationship, shouldn't you respect their wishes? People who feel like this can become friends with other couples on an ongoing basis, but still not want this level of attachment and "love".

    You're "open to explore your feelings" in your relationship, you said. That's great, but it seems like if you impose that on a couple who doesn't want to do that, it's not fair to them. To me, it would be about the same as trying to cross some other boundary they may have, and they have both agreed between themselves that they don't go there.

    Just my thoughts.

  23. Back To Top | #23

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tybee Swing
    Hi sereneiders, I disagree that it's just the "L word" that's avoided by many swingers and not the feelings, themselves. Many of us just do not want the emotional attachments beyond being buddies with other couples. We want the romantic/emotional attachment to be reserved for our mates, only. We have physical sex with others just for fun, recreationally. It's just a shared activity, like vanilla friend's shared activities. Many people, including women, can separate love and sex with no problem. I feel that this should be respected by those who DO like the love feelings with their swing partners and prefer that.
    It seems to me that either you got this the wrong way, or I failed to properly express my toughts (perhaps because of the language barrier, since English isn't my own language and some times I have a hard time to express some ideas).

    What I am saying is, besides that for you it's not desirable to develop feelings, it is something that MAY happen anyway, because feelings are beyond our control. At most, you'd develop rules and pay attention to warning signs to trigger those rules, as to stop the ball and prevent those feelings to further evolve.

    And of course, this is less likely to happen if you share just one night (semething that we do, too), that if you keep seeing your playmates, thus increasing the chances of develop feelings.

    Even for those who separate sex from love (and indeed, I believe that those are two unrelated things), they require a minimal degree of attraction, of "chemics", before having sex with someone. The way you feature such an attraction, and what constitutes such a "minimal degree" changes from person to person.

    The point is, that attraction is constituted by feelings as well. But we're not skilled enough to talk about feelings as to tell appart the sutile differences those feelings may have in every case, because we lack a vocabulary to express ourselves, we're forced to choose from a few words to NAME those feelings, in a discrete scale going from "no feelings" at one end, and "love" at the other. And since those feelings are way more close to the "no feelings" end than to the "love" end, we end up saying "we have no feelings", or at most, attempting to NAME them with the "chemics" euphemism.

    Now, if you agree with me so far, and since (as you said) what constitutes such a minimal degree of atraction varies from person to person, there are cases where the minimal is "shifted" in a linear scale: some people require "friendship" feelings (somewhere in between the "no feelings" and "love"), some require "intimacy"... and those words are the ones turning the linear scale into a discrete one. In the other hand, in everyone scale the distance between two points, let say "friendship" and "love", also varies. For some it's shorther, for others it's longer. Moreover, what may consitute "friendship" from one guy, couldn't be "friendship" for another.

    Ultimately we require to develop a minimal set of feelings, and some of us require to prevent those feelings to evolve, thus holding them below a threshold in this scale, and we're barelly able (if able at all) to draw the lines and put the numbers on them for the ruler we're trying to use.

    So when we prettend to be too strict about all of this, I believe we're fooling ourselves, and it seems to me we do this in an attempt to preserve ourselves from the incertainity the lack of vocabulary give to us: we say communication is the key factor as to be able to succesfully swing, so when we're lead into a topic where the language limitation renders us useless to properly communicate, we choose to become conservative, if not to deny the whole problem existence.

    It's not merely the "L word" as it if were a forbidden one, I said "naming convention" because, as opposed as it happens to sex related terms, we lack of a convention to clearly talk about our feelings. This includes, but it isn't limited to, the "L word".

    In any case, being aware of this doesn't mean I am "praying" my truth to every swinger couple we bump into. The fact is, we accept this and try to respect the scale they have the best we do to help them preserve their relationship (as all of us are supposed to do with any limit we express). I only talk about this when it fits, as it happens here. My wife wouldn't even try: she's more skeptic and she would say the whole discussion is pointless and prone to being get the wrong way (and so far, she seems to be right).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tybee Swing
    If they don't want to share emotional attachments outside of their relationship, shouldn't you respect their wishes? People who feel like this can become friends with other couples on an ongoing basis, but still not want this level of attachment and "love".

    You're "open to explore your feelings" in your relationship, you said. That's great, but it seems like if you impose that on a couple who doesn't want to do that, it's not fair to them. To me, it would be about the same as trying to cross some other boundary they may have, and they have both agreed between themselves that they don't go there.

    Just my thoughts.
    Wait a moment! I didn't imposed anything to anyone! I just talked about my feelings with them... and they didn't run away!

    Let's rewind the tape here. This couple was one of the couples we learned the most of what we know about the lifestyle. They know us since we approaced the lifestyle, and we ask them a lot of questions before chosing to give this a try. They were the ones who adviced us to avoid developing feelings, and even by then, we were aware that the whole thing wasn't "clear enough" for us (which later on evolved into out "naming convention" theory ).

    Our relationship evolved naturally into a frienship: we didn't pursued this, nor required this frienship to have sex with them (we don't even remember the name of most of the people we had sex with). In fact, by the time we had sex with them, we didn't imagine the relationship would evolve this far. It just happened.

    We developed enough confidence as to openly discuss many aspects of the lifestyle and of our personal lives and feelings. In this context, this subject bring up again as a chat topic, we explained our point of view to them, and one time I talked about my feelings towards them as to provide an example of what I meant.

    In any case, we're not asking for "reciprocity", but this is because we feel that, besides the words, the reciprocity we expect from the friendship is already there. In any case, this isn't different than what happens inside our marriage: we don't ask "reciprocity" from each other, we just enjoy what each one have to offer to the other, and we found out over and over the reciprocity is already there.

    In our marriage, we're EXTREMELLY respectfull towards each other feelings, limits, privacy, time, and so on, we don't need, nor ask for, our spouse permission to do something, because we know where the limits are, and we know and are up to talk, learn and forgive is some of us make a mistake (since we agree in this viewpoint, any mistake is, by definition, a shared mistake: the mistake from one of us, and the mistake from the other when not making explicit beforehand the expectations). We're aware that we're deemed by the language to commit flaws with the words, and we care more about the actions, what people does along history besides what they actually say, and our history is full of actions fulfilling enough as to prove us about each other good will.

    The only we do is to stick to the same attitude towards the people we have around us. If their actions prove us they care about us, they deserve the feelings we develop towards them. And our reciprocity comes from our actions: once knowing what may harm someone, we'd do our best to avoid doing it. We don't care to much to define our feelings, nor to compare them agains the feelings we have towards other people, including our spouse, mostly beacuse it'd be a pointless waste of time. It's just that we're convinced that the question "who you love the most, daddy or mommy?" is not a valid question (much like a Gödel's incompleteness theorem).

    This is what happens in this case: as for them, besides all the theoretical discussions, they appreciate us for our actions and for our respectfull attitude. I told what I told just because I was sure it was ok to be told, if I were not sure, I wouldn't open my mouth.

    So your claim that I am trying to "impose" something to this couple is way off grounds here.

    I wouldn't even dare to "impose" anything to my own wife, not even those things that I am supposed to have "the right" to impose to her, as to suppose I'd do this to someone else.

  24. Back To Top | #24

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Quote Originally Posted by sereneiders
    So your claim that I am trying to "impose" something to this couple is way off grounds here.
    I'll explain what I saw in that post that made me feel that your statements may have been an imposition:

    "They have this aproach where they dislike feelings involved" - they had shared with you this boundary they had, so you knew how they felt about it.

    "Some time ago I was talking with the female half of them about our friendship, and I told her "I know this may freak you out, but guys, we love you two". She gave me her histation look.." -- I'm pretty sure that's hesitation, right? She was taken aback? Uncomfortable?

    And part of what you told her was -- "I know the word love is freaking, but please, explain to me why it wouldn't fit". That sounded a bit argumentative, as if you were trying to convince her that the love feelings should be acceptable, and she should have to answer to you why not.

    That's all. I'm not really claiming anything, because I don't know your whole relationship, I only know what was typed. I was relating to how I would feel in that situation, if we had friends that had a different set of standards on the emotional attachment issue, and even after knowing ours, the husband still was promoting their view. I might feel that our wishes were being disrespected or brushed off. If the other couple wouldn't accept our particular brand of swinging and withhold their feelings, we might be prone to break it off with them.

    I'm not arguing with you about your right to have feelings. Just sharing how many of us might feel in the same circumstances. Peace.

  25. Back To Top | #25

    Default Re: Loving your swinging partner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tybee Swing
    I'll explain what I saw in that post that made me feel that your statements may have been an imposition:

    "They have this aproach where they dislike feelings involved" - they had shared with you this boundary they had, so you knew how they felt about it.

    "Some time ago I was talking with the female half of them about our friendship, and I told her "I know this may freak you out, but guys, we love you two". She gave me her histation look.." -- I'm pretty sure that's hesitation, right? She was taken aback? Uncomfortable?

    And part of what you told her was -- "I know the word love is freaking, but please, explain to me why it wouldn't fit". That sounded a bit argumentative, as if you were trying to convince her that the love feelings should be acceptable, and she should have to answer to you why not.

    That's all. I'm not really claiming anything, because I don't know your whole relationship, I only know what was typed. I was relating to how I would feel in that situation, if we had friends that had a different set of standards on the emotional attachment issue, and even after knowing ours, the husband still was promoting their view. I might feel that our wishes were being disrespected or brushed off. If the other couple wouldn't accept our particular brand of swinging and withhold their feelings, we might be prone to break it off with them.

    I'm not arguing with you about your right to have feelings. Just sharing how many of us might feel in the same circumstances. Peace.
    Ok. I see your point. The question would be, at which point talking about a subject, discussing a point of view, become an imposition.

    I agree, I was argumentative, as I am being argumentative here. If I am asked to know what I think or believe, or if someone challenge it, I will expose it and be argumentative, because it's the way we discuss.

    Let's suppose I was having sex with this woman and wispered "i love you" in her ear, and THEN, that I said what I said. In this scenario I would be the first one saying I am being "argumentative" to impose my point of view.

    But this didn't happen, nor it will happen. I just was argumentative with people who like to discuss about lifestyle issues and are themselves as argumentative as I am to show they point of view. I didn't break any rule, nor a request from them to avoid discussing the subject. This could be just my belief, but the fact is, none of them felt I break a rule nor that I passed over any limit when telling this. Moreover, they asked to know and understand our position with all of this, I mean questions like "how can you have a girlfriend, develop feelings and avoid this being disrupting for you two?", so the topic was fit.

    Do you believe I shouldn't talk about something like this, just because by just talking about this someone would feel pushed? If so, then you'd agree with Chicup, I shouldn't even bring the subject here.

    About the precise wording I used, I'll ask you to bare in mind that English isn't my born language. In your born language you're able to make a lot of second readings over a sentence, and to pick the way to say something to ensure there are second readings that will be understood (you know the same thing can be told in different ways, let say, being carefull about something or being careless). I can do the same in Spanish, but not in English. I cannot translate to English what I said the same way I said it in Spanish, just because I am unaware of certain second readings like the ones you're doing here in English. I am pretty sure that you found out something from what I wrote that leads you reasonabily to conclude my intentions, but I am unaware of those things you found until someone tells me.

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