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  1. Back To Top | #51
    big_daddy_37604
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    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Quote Originally Posted by Atilla
    ok, last night I was chatting with a guy who is married but his wife doesn't swing. I asked him if she knew what he was doing, he said yes she did and that she didn't have a problem with it as long as she knew where he was and when he would be getting home.

    First off, that sounds like a Mother to me not a wife. My Mom always wanted to know where I was and what I was doing.

    Secondly, is this common? I'm thinking that there can't be much of a marriage there if she's willing to let him go off on his own.

    Also, gut instinct says NO, No, No to me
    I am one of those guys that plays alone, and yes my wife does know all about it and encourages me to find someone. You see in this lifestyle, I believe we've all met people that get pleasure from different things. For my wife, it's me telling her about an encounter that I've had with another couple or female. (I guess you could say that she swings vicariously through my swinging.)

    As for talking to the couple that's interested in playing with me, sometimes she does, and sometimes she doesn't.

    That's not to say that I don't respect the decision of those couples that choose not to get together with me, because again, it's a cardinal rule for those of us in the lifestyle to respect others choices and the "no" answer. And there are plenty of couples out there that accept my wife's lifetyle option and what turns her on.

    big_daddy_37604

  2. Back To Top | #52
    Chimpin' Ain't Easy Spoomonkey's Avatar
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    Married Monkeys - will you be our vine?
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    Spoomonkey

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Quote Originally Posted by big_daddy_37604
    That's not to say that I don't respect the decision of those couples that choose not to get together with me, because again, it's a cardinal rule for those of us in the lifestyle to respect others choices and the "no" answer. And there are plenty of couples out there that accept my wife's lifetyle option and what turns her on.
    And just for those of you who whine that some of us are so quick to pass judgement - I'd like to jump in quickly and say that I COMPLETELY respect this sort of arrangement. I also appreciate his respect for the choices of those among us who would not be comfortable playing with him - for whatever reasons we might have.

    Big Daddy - here's a beer for you

    Spoomonkey
    "Eros will have naked bodies; Friendship naked personalities." - C. S. Lewis

  3. Back To Top | #53

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Spoo,

    Monogamous couples are "stingy bastards who won't sleep with anyone". Excuse me???

    I'm confident that if you were to meet Mrs. Van, I would fall into the "stingy bastard" category. Guilty as charged...

    On the other hand, regarding myself, I've saved you from getting the "Not a chance in Hell!" signal from Mrs. Spoo.

    You owe me a beer...

    Van

  4. Back To Top | #54

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Quote Originally Posted by toby962
    I thought swingers may have been a good idea but popular opinion is deffinitly against me.
    Not my opinion, Toby, and not my wife's either. We are a bit more tolerant than the average swinger toward men (and women) who go behind their partners backs. Long gone are the days when I used to be much more judgmental. Especially younger people tend to be very intolerant. That's possibly why many swingers are older and more experienced people. We understand that not everybody has the luxury of a partner who has wrestled him(her)self free from the restrictive way of thinking imposed by our generally sex negative society (embodied for instance by time-honored institutions like the Roman-Catholic Mother Church, Walt Disney Studios, Barbara Cartland, Days of our Lives, etc. etc.....). And the urge to have a variety of sex partners is very strong, in both men and women. Swingers should understand that. If you can do it openly with the consent or participation of your partner, that is great. It doesn't come better than that. But if that turns out to be impossible, then that's just the way it is. Why should you sacrifice yourself, why should you be abysmally unhappy for the rest of your married life. Sooner or later it will catch up with you. It is very hard to consistently play the devoted and loving husband, if you are continuously resentful. Been there, done that in my first marriage. It is just not good for you. However I do think you should do everything you possibly can to win your wife over. A lot has been said, on this forum and elsewhere on the Web, on how to go about that. Extramarital sex, with or without your spouse's consent, corresponds to a very real and irrepressable human need. It is funny to see how people have two sets of standards. A (vanilla) sister of my wife's, when watching Oprah's show on swinging, spontaneously exclaimed that she had never heard of such idiocy before. She thought it was profoundly immoral. But I know for a fact that she cheats on her husband (whom she loves very much). If her husband, though, were to even entertain the thought of extracurricular activity himself, all hell would break loose, if ever she were to find out. My wife (whom I love very much) and I are into MFM. We both prefer it. We don't cheat. Everything is out in the open and she can even see other men without me being present. I just want to know who she is with and where, also for her own safety. If she were to cheat on me, and I found out, I would not be terribly upset. But I would ask her not to do it anymore. Mind you, all this doesn't mean that lying and cheating are always ok. No, that is definitely not the case. But sometimes you don't have the choice (the instinct is just too strong). It is not right that a wife should force her husband to live his life entirely according to her rules, no more than the other way around. It is for this reason that my wife and I occasionally - we are very selective - do accept married men who cheat on their wives. We also derive - possibly a false - sense of security - diseasewise - from this. Finally I would like to remark that I never cheat on my wife, nor lie to her. But I can imagine there are situations where it cannot be avoided, which includes cases in which a lie is a lot more merciful and sensible than the cold truth. I think swingers should be just as unjudgmental themselves as they would like vanilla people to be.

  5. Back To Top | #55

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Quote Originally Posted by Compersor
    Why should you sacrifice yourself, why should you be abysmally unhappy for the rest of your married life...But sometimes you don't have the choice (the instinct is just too strong)...But I can imagine there are situations where it cannot be avoided, which includes cases in which a lie is a lot more merciful and sensible than the cold truth. I think swingers should be just as unjudgmental themselves as they would like vanilla people to be.
    You're absolutely right. Why should one sacrifice oneself and be abysmally unhappy for the rest of one's married life? However I very strongly disagree that "sometimes you don't have the choice". You always have a choice. Poeple are not born married. We are not children who are trapped in an abusive situation that we cannot escape from. And if one party is suffering mental, emotional, verbal or physical abuse, they need to get the hell out of that poisonous relationship anyway. What the hell is the point of being married anyway? Is it to make the marriage last as many years as you can tolerate one another?? I believe in quality over quantity. Work on the quality, and the quantity will come of its own accord. Marriage is overprescribed in my opinion; no one takes it seriously anymore. There are the ones who believe that marriage is "until death do us part [or until we change our minds]", the ones who say "for better or worse, until death do us part [no matter how unhealthy and miserable it makes us]", and then there are the ones who wish they had more than one lifetime, because one just isn't long enough. I'm proud to say Mr. and I are in that last category. It's rare and wonderful.

    If someone feels so constrained and unhappy in their marriage, they need to communicate that to their spouse, BEFORE they take matters into their own hands. And looking at the situation from the "Golden Rule" viewpoint, I think given the choice between being lied to in order to "protect me" from reality or being given the dignity of making an informed decision, I'd take the latter any day and twice on Sunday. This is not us being judgmental; this is just common sense. This is treating other people like the adults they are and not babysitting them. It's respecting your own needs without treading on anyone else's. Yeah, reality can sure sting. It's not fun to find out that, no, you and your spouse do not get along and never will. But if that is the absolute truth, why would you waste your life hiding your head in the sand avoiding it? It will all come out in the end, anyway. And then how stupid do you feel, having wasted so much time 'settling' for an unsatisfactory life? You don't get a do-over in real life. Make it count.

    Bottom line? Cheaters are cheaters and they don't have an excuse that's good enough in my book. Each person is responsible for their own happiness.

    P.S.>> I have posted so many times on this subject, I think I've said all there is for me to say on it. Therefore, this post is not the beginning of an argument. I have no interest in taking up Julie's valuable server space with my redundancies.
    Fear is a symptom of ignorance. Knowledge is the cure.

  6. Back To Top | #56
    Chimpin' Ain't Easy Spoomonkey's Avatar
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    Married Monkeys - will you be our vine?
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    Spoomonkey

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Quote Originally Posted by intuition897
    P.S.>> I have posted so many times on this subject, I think I've said all there is for me to say on it. Therefore, this post is not the beginning of an argument. I have no interest in taking up Julie's valuable server space with my redundancies.
    Yeah - after a while, you just kind of get tired of bopping the same mole...

    I feel the same way - and this subject always gets my hackles up. But - you can only bang your head against the same wall for so long before you move on.

    But - as long as there is a swinging community - there will be cheaters who see us as a convenient "fix" to their marital cowardice. So... I'll see you next week

    Same bat-topic, same bat-response...

    Spoomonkey
    "Eros will have naked bodies; Friendship naked personalities." - C. S. Lewis

  7. Back To Top | #57

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Quote Originally Posted by WesternSwing
    I would think if they are not swingers and he really is allowed to play alone, it would open up a whole can of trouble in the future. I don't know of any relationships like that. Now I do know of several swing couples that one member of the couple is allowed to play alone and the other has no desire to. But, I think this different because most of the time they are in the lifestyle together.

    So I would believe that A) he is lying or B) he has her permission but it will blow-up in his (and someone else's) face eventually. Either way, good reasons to steer clear of this guy.

    Mr. WS

    This is my point exactly. I think he's lying and I'm sorry to all who have open relationships but the warning bells are going off here. There are alot of people who lie about their situations out there. We've met everything from this type of guy to picture collectors. I really don't want to get in the middle of a person's marriage whether it's already gone sour and have his wife coming head hunting. This is just a place I don't want to venture to. So, to stay safe, we're staying clear of this one.

    Wow, I've been gone for a bit because of a move. I'm amazed at all the responses and the debate that's has come up with this thread. My first response was, "Holy Shit"

    There is some awesome comments here and far too many to quote. Thanks for the input.
    Only in Canada you say? Pity.

  8. Back To Top | #58

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    I am a married male who plays alone. One of the first things I tell them is that I am married and play alone, that she knows and that they are more than welcome to meet her in person. Never had problems.

  9. Back To Top | #59

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Quote Originally Posted by grabbyzz
    I am a married male who plays alone. One of the first things I tell them is that I am married and play alone, that she knows and that they are more than welcome to meet her in person. Never had problems.
    Whenever this topic comes up, there is inevitibly a lot of defensive accusations that swingers are 'intolerant' of others' choices. I'd have to agree that yes, as a group, we are intolerant of dishonesty. Anyone who displays dishonesty in any way shape or form drops right off our 'playdar'; it's a real turn-off.

    However, situations like grabbyzz' don't fall into the dishonest category, so there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that particular couple's play-style. Some couples still prefer to avoid married-playing-single because they feel it may become too complicated (? I'm guessing), but it's simply a preference, not intolerance.
    Fear is a symptom of ignorance. Knowledge is the cure.

  10. Back To Top | #60

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    I'm guessing that what it all comes down to is a matter of personal preference. In my original post, I couldn't understand how the wife could just let her husband go out and screw whoever so long as he let her know where she was. Is that her personal preference though? or is their love life so tired that she just doesn't want to waste the energy anymore trying to make him happy and she's given him permission to go elsewhere to be satisfied?

    Several couples here have posted that they do go seperate ways. That's fine, but in my original post, he does but she doesn't. So this is different from you people. He getting some but she isn't. Why? does she not have interest in being with other people, is she just tired and fed up trying to keep him satisfied that she's told him to go elsewhere, or does she actually get something out of this arrangement?

    Regardless, we stay far, far away from this just cause we don't know the total circumstances behind the situation and we don't want to get involved in something that could get nasty.

    Bottom line? it's a matter of personal preference, am I correct?

    The fact is that whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, cheating is a way of life for far more couples than swinging is.
    I sooooo agree with this comment.


    I am one of those guys that plays alone, and yes my wife does know all about it and encourages me to find someone. You see in this lifestyle, I believe we've all met people that get pleasure from different things. For my wife, it's me telling her about an encounter that I've had with another couple or female. (I guess you could say that she swings vicariously through my swinging.)
    Are you sure of that???? I would question this being that I am a female. You know how it is, we say one thing but mean a totally different thing. You may have taken it for what she said but I would have my doubts.
    Only in Canada you say? Pity.

  11. Back To Top | #61

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    oh and one more thing that I need to add to this discussion.

    I was once a bored married female who was tired of putting out relentlessly for my hubby who had a raging sex drive compared to mine. I DID actually think at one point to letting him loose to find his own fun and enjoyment but just cause I was tired of putting out for him when I didn't want to. Is this what these wives have done?

    When we discussed swinging, I thought you never know unless you try it whether you're going to like it or not AND if you can't beat them, then join them. We're having a blast now, our sex life is awesome both with partners or by ourselves, I never complain of having sex with my husband and if anything my sex drive has increased.
    Only in Canada you say? Pity.

  12. Back To Top | #62

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Bottom line? it's a matter of personal preference, am I correct?
    I think that sums it up fairly succinctly. It doesn't matter to me if; a) he's cheating; b) has permission; c) his wife is just tired of putting out and told him to go get it elsewhere. That should matter to him and his wife. What matters to me is what I choose....that is to say what I prefer (as above). That determines what kind of person I am. And that's far more important IMO.
    And for the record, my gut tells me that a male playing on his own 'with his wife's permission' is a rare bird and not likely one that I'd want to get tangled up with. I would be concerned about the possibility of contributing to an unhappy situation.

  13. Back To Top | #63

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Quote Originally Posted by JnCC
    The fact is that whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, cheating is a way of life for far more couples than swinging is. That's been true since the dawn of mankind, and will likely be a part of our mating strategy until the last homo-sapien on earth falls dead.
    i completely agree jncc. swinging [sic: cheating and open marriage] is condoned in many traditional societies and always has been. notice i combine the two, as if they are one, because really when you look at some tribal groups, including some that still exist, along with ancient societies that were important enough to leave a written history, infidelity and 'multiple sex partners after mating' go hand in hand, no matter what semantic spin you want the idea to have.
    i woke up this morning and i got myself a beer, the future's uncertain and the end is always near, so let it roll baby roll.....

  14. Back To Top | #64

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Quote Originally Posted by kittylikesmfm
    i completely agree jncc. swinging [sic: cheating and open marriage] is condoned in many traditional societies and always has been. notice i combine the two, as if they are one, because really when you look at some tribal groups, including some that still exist, along with ancient societies that were important enough to leave a written history, infidelity and 'multiple sex partners after mating' go hand in hand, no matter what semantic spin you want the idea to have.

    I disagree with this assessment. There is far more difference than semantics in "open marriages" and "cheating".

    I consider an open marriage to be one where both partners are aware of the other partner's sexual proclivities outside the marriage, and is approving of the fact, whether they, themselves, actually participate in kind.

    Conversely, cheating involves duplicity and deceit. Sneaking around without the other partner's knowledge and/or approval, simply out of complete disrespect of the marriage and the principals that their spouse holds toward sex and marriage.

    In my opinion, they are not one in the same, nor even close.
    Life is not measured by how many breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.

  15. Back To Top | #65

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Quote Originally Posted by txduo2000
    I consider an open marriage to be one where both partners are aware of the other partner's sexual proclivities outside the marriage, and is approving of the fact, whether they, themselves, actually participate in kind.

    Conversely, cheating involves duplicity and deceit. Sneaking around without the other partner's knowledge and/or approval, simply out of complete disrespect of the marriage and the principals that their spouse holds toward sex and marriage.

    In my opinion, they are not one in the same, nor even close.
    txduo I totally agree with you on the differences between open marriage and cheating. The two are not even close. In the latter (cheating) someone is deceived and gets hurt. In an open marriage everyone is in agreement with what is going on and no one gets hurt.

    Mrs Spoomonkey
    Love is friendship set aflame

  16. Back To Top | #66

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    I don't think she was saying that swinging and cheating were the same, I think she was saying there are similarities. I know this is a hot button among both swingers and the "morally righteous" alike, and regardless of which side of the debate a person is on, nothing said here is likely to change anybody's mind about it. But before this topic once again roars into a war of semantics and personal sniping, at least consider that 98% of all married people are in relationships in which sex outside the marriage isn't condoned under ANY circumstances. By the reckoning of most of the population then, swingers, (who DO have sex outside the marriage) are seen as "unfaithful"...if not to their spouses, then at least to the vows of their marriage.

    Some years ago, there was an ad campaign which asked whether Certs candy was a "candy mint" or a "breath mint." I didn't waste a whole lot of time pondering the question. I just figured it could be either, depending on why the person was putting it in their mouth. Likewise, swinging. I honestly believe some people do it in lieu of cheating. I also believe others do it because they find it an intensely bonding experience.

    My experience in the lifestyle was that for me, it was a little of both.

    Quote Originally Posted by txduo2000
    I consider an open marriage to be one where both partners are aware of the other partner's sexual proclivities outside the marriage, and is approving of the fact, whether they, themselves, actually participate in kind.

    Conversely, cheating involves duplicity and deceit. Sneaking around without the other partner's knowledge and/or approval, simply out of complete disrespect of the marriage and the principals that their spouse holds toward sex and marriage.
    If I'm not mistaken, the O'Neil's, who literally "wrote the book" on "Open Marriage" in the early 70's, divorced just a few years after their work was published. After all the happy-horseshit about how they "trusted each other implicitly" and "communicated so well," it turned out that she had fallen in love with one of her "secondaries."

    If anybody has any better information on that fiasco, I'd be interested in hearing it.

  17. Back To Top | #67

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    I use to think there were certain rules that had to be followed for a marriage to work. After having most of those fail to prevent failure and seeing all sorts of marriages that work or don't work as the case may be; I figure if something works for you, stick with it, and if it doesn't try something different.

    I pretty much have the same philosophy about swinging at this point. As JNCC said, some are in it as a bonding experience or an experience to share together. Some are in it as a substitute for cheating. Some are in it for a little of both. Whatever floats your boat is fine with me as long as it doesn't affect my paycheck, my love life, or my sex life.

    Personally, I can't, don't, and won't endorse or assist cheating for all of the obvious and previously explained reasons. But, there are those who do. In fact, I think most non swingers tolerate cheating as long as it isn't their spouse doing it, whereas most non swingers think swingers are "doing a bad thing". Most swingers abhor cheating, but then some don't care.

    To each his own. As long as someone doesn't try to involve me in something I don't want to be involved in, I've become pretty tolerant of others actions.
    But, there is the key, as long as they don't try to involve me against my will.
    I hear a lot about the cheating single males. I think most of them involved in the net are on swing sites cause they're looking for sex. The cheating females involved in the net are on vanilla dating sites because they are looking for sex AND a replacement for their present spouse.

    None of us are gonna change the world. At some point you have to say "just leave me out of it". As I have stated in the past, any time I have been told by a female that she and her husband "have an open marriage" or she has "permission" I simply ask if that means it would be OK for me to clear it with him personally. To date, without exception, they have been gone faster than a paycheck.
    Why is it we can pleasure ourselves but not tickle ourselves?

  18. Back To Top | #68

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    Damn. That was one long thread.

    It's really too, too bad that this sort of discussion doesn't come up in sex-ed or other sorts of classes on a regular basis long before most people get married for the first time. Might save a lot of pain (and money!).

    It seems that many that cheat can't conceive of (or can't approach with their spouse) the idea of playing together, or swinging in general, without the preconceived idea that it is cheating--just not being called as such. So, they figure, what's the problem with a little extra-marital sex? There's a whole bunch of people saying that they do it all the time--swingers!

    The problem is, it isn't the sex that's the real issue. The real issue is lying and the betrayal of trust.

    And therein lies the reason most folks who do swing are so down on cheating, methinks. Trust has everything to do with being able to swing together as a couple and stay together as a couple. Why, if a couple has gone through the effort of building enough trust to start swinging, would most couples want to include someone who hasn't made that effort? Apart from the potential for major drama (and trauma), the sort of attitude that cheating implies simply doesn't mesh well with the sort mindset that most swinging couples have about swinging.

    I think what a lot of people misbelieve about swingers is that they're "easy". It seems to be a general conception: that since swinging folks have sex with more than just their spouse/SO, they must not have any moral values at all, and just want to fuck anyone who happens along. And if they have no morals about that, then they obviously won't care if someone's cheating. So the people who are cheating look at swingers, figuring that there's an easy situation: swinging folks won't tell their spouse they're cheating, won't do something uncomfortable like show up at their front door uninvited, etc. After all, they just want to fuck, right? The thing is, that's dead wrong.

    And the problem is... that doesn't change the basic situation: if you're cheating, you're being extremely dishonest with the very person about whom you claim to care most. And worse, IMNSHO, you've stolen something--something you had no right to at all: your SO's ability to make an informed choice for him- or herself. (They put medical and legal people in jail for stuff like failing to get informed consent--it's that important.)

    And that, to me (and it appears, to many others here as well) is the major portion of the issue. Because it inevitably leads to questions, stated or not, like: "What else is a cheating spouse lying about?" "Does he (she) love her (him) more than me?" "Does he (she) respect me at all?" And that's without beginning to think of the questions the swingers involved are gonna start thinking about...

    It's all down hill (like, from 5000 feet without benefit of a 'chute) from there. The only questions are how large the crater is gonna be, and how much 'collateral damage' will occur.

    So the thing is... if you're cheating, you really don't fit into most swingers' concept of what swinging is--you're not really a swinger, by most swingers' self-definition. And you don't fit into monogamous folks' idea of monogamy, either--cause you're not a faithful spouse by their self-definition. Is it any wonder that neither group usually wants to give a cheater the time of day?

    On the other hand, if everyone involved in the relationship knows what's going on, no one is being cheated on. Whether you're open to separate play, couples-only play, polyamory, or any of a host of other possibilities, the crucial difference is that no one is lying. So... no betrayal of trust, as the rules are mutually agreed upon. There was informed consent.

    People who make truly open relationships (from swinging to polyamory, and everything else in between) work deserve a lot of respect. It isn't easy (in fact, I'd say--from personal experience--that it's more difficult than faithful monogamy). It requires lots of communication and trust--just the very thing that people who are cheating cannot bring to the table and, it seems to me--the root cause of swingers being so down on cheating.

  19. Back To Top | #69

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    BRAVO Paphian! Well said!! CuriousAgain, once again you've also hit the nail on the head. I've actually just put this thread in my browser favorites. Inevitably we get waves of 'mingle' men (married, but trying to play single) wanting to hook up with swingers here, and it would be really nice to have this thread to link to for them. With so much common sense here, it almost feels like finding a lost goldmine. In some ways you don't want to let anyone else know it's here, because if this site gets flooded, it'll change. But at the same time, you want to tell everyone about it because there is just SOOO much ignorance and stupidity out there! You want to tell them, "Stop screwing around and hurting each other! It isn't necessary! LOOK at this website and READ this; absorb what these people are saying for God's sake because it's the truth."
    Fear is a symptom of ignorance. Knowledge is the cure.

  20. Back To Top | #70

    Default Re: The Single Male who is Married

    I still think there is a distinctive difference between a cheater and "most" swingers. I say "most" because we have had experience with the couple that uses it in place of out and out cheating behind their spouses back like Jncc mentioned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jncc
    Likewise, swinging. I honestly believe some people do it in lieu of cheating. I also believe others do it because they find it an intensely bonding experience.
    One couple we met would always come to the club and she would hunt down a single male and disappear to a room with him. Sure enough some time later a fight would occur and they'd leave. To much drama!! And the husband is hurt and frustrated. She was a cheater under the guise of swinger.

    We look for the people who are in it for the intense bonding experience they have together as a couple. If we know someone is cheating we'll let them know how we feel about it and definately not play. Can't change them or stop anyone who doesn't care from playing with them but we don't want any part of it. Doesn't matter if it's a male or female. We found out after play with a single female that she was cheating. Can't take the play back but it won't happen again.

    So like Curious said we can't change the world or the fact that there are cheaters out there. But we want no part of it and don't condon it.

    Mrs Spoomonkey
    Love is friendship set aflame

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