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incommunicado

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incommunicado last won the day on February 22 2011

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  1. Totally hot! Congrats! Now... just to make sure... this is the recount of the FIRST time your wife was with your friend? Or the second? It seems like they were already familiar by the time this one happened. Just want to make sure you aren't holding out on us .
  2. Sorry, didn't read through all the answers, forgive me if I repeat what someone else has said... I've heard, read, and experienced the whole increased/decreased libido thing. (MOSTLY) men get cranky because they aren't getting laid as much as they want to, and (MOSTLY) women have a range of emotion about the mans attitude, ranging from sympathy and agreement, to inadequacy for not being more amorous, to feeling extremely pressured and put-upon. But rarely do the (MOSTLY) men, consider and address the possible causes... 1) External causes: Stress, anxiety, depression, day-to-day bullshit that everyone has to deal with, that can easily manifest in decreased libido. I'll summarize what my wife has said to me. "It's hard to feel sexy towards you when I am stressed and you are one of the causes of my stress." So, in a nutshell, maybe it's you. Just sayin'. But, if it is, you are going to have to take your lumps and figure out how you can be a stress reliever not a stress causer. And, let me tell you, offering her oral sex to relieve her stress is NOT gonna cut it. I've tried. Counseling for one or both of you, to help to learn how to work with, and around stresses, and to help her not see you as a stress causer, may be in order. Oh, and if this IS the case... and you do stuff to make her life easier... don't expect it to turn around and get you laid more often, right away. Slow, and steady wins the race. 2) Internal causes: Age, childbirth, any variety of medical conditions, or metabolic changes can cause hormonal changes including a decrease in testosterone. I know what you may be thinking... "but that's a male hormone!" And, right you are my friend. But, it is also what makes us all horny. Decreased testosterone, decreased sex drive. You could encourage her, in a supportive fashion, to have her testosterone levels tested. If they fall below normal, the solution can be as simple as rubbing a little bit of cream on the back of her hand. A few weeks and she could be ready to roll. Of course, then you have to figure out if she's ready to roll with YOU. The things I've mentioned? All fixable. Stepping out on your wife? It's indelible, and, if she finds out, can never be fixed, even if it doesn't end your marriage. Choose wisely young Skywalker. Good luck.
  3. Your recent post has shed a totally different light on things. First, though there are no absolutes, there is credence to the phrase, "once a cheater, always a cheater." There is probably a deep rooted reason you were unfaithful in all your relationships. Statistically, it is not likely to be because you are at heart, truly non-monogamous. But, for whatever the reason, once one starts cheating it is very difficult to stop. That you have cheated on all your previous partners, gives some indication that there is a problem with commitment. The fact that you cheated on your last relationship with your current one, is another statistical indication that you are destined to cheat again (the one you cheated with, invariably gets cheated on). So, in addressing your situation at hand... what if your instinct to cheat is back? What if it is strong enough to create this need, but is held in check by your love and devotion to your husband? Perhaps you are looking for another outlet for the desire that drives the cheating. You NEED to swing, perhaps because your desires drive you towards sex outside the marriage, but you don't wish to be unfaithful, or to hurt your husband. So, you create what you see as a win-win scenario. Only a counselor (possibly several) can help you figure it out for sure. You can even find lifestyle friendly counselors. That's what we did. Because, ultimately, you may get what you want, which, in a way, only indulges your desires, but doesn't solve anything. Or, your husband may ultimately say, it's me or your sexual freedom, and you'll have to make the hard choice. Good luck!
  4. I, respectfully, don't entirely agree. You could easily infer by your statement, that swingers are what we are, because we are enlightened to the fact that humans are basically non-monogamous. I believe that we are willing to explore our sexual fantasies and desires, which involve non-monogamy. But, that most of us are still, basically, spiritually, monogamous. Most of us, re-invent our definition of fidelity, because we still need the comfort of those limitations. We create rules for our swinging, and, if certain lines are crossed, we feel as cheated on as we would if we were "vanilla" and our spouse stepped out on us. Very FEW of us, have a no-holds-barred, open door policy for spouses to play. To me, this speaks to the reality of monogamy as intrinsic to most of us, even swingers. We just put a different spin on it. Re: the statement about couples divorcing or living in misery... Marriages fail, whether people divorce or not, for so many reasons. Most of them documented by psychologists (i.e., feelings of neglect, changes in how you view your spouse, insecurity and need for validation, lack of a positive male or female role model growing up etc.) Psychology is not subject to religious dogma or social mores, so, if non-monogamy were the magic bullet, it would have been highly publicized and treated as the cure for many relationship ills. At the beginning of my post, I said I didn't entirely agree with Couplers' statement. I do believe that there ARE people who determine/accept that they are truly, by nature, non-monogamous, and are "coming out" (unfortunately to spouses who are monogamous). But, I don't believe they are an emerging majority. I will say what I always say to my gay friends who are convinced that, somehow, EVERYONE is gay" It applies to swingers, and non-monogamists, and so many others...."there are a lot more of you, than we think, but a lot less of you, than you think.
  5. I find the poll results very interesting thus far... Better than twice as many men, as women have posted that they could just quit for their spouse. I wonder if that is because more men than women have read the thread? Or have women who read it have abstained from voting? I also see that, of the few that voted "NO", 3 times the number of women voted "NO", than men. I find this interesting because of the stats that it's the men that get the women into swinging and the women that take to it like ducks to water. Considering that sex outside the marriage has been know to end even swinging marriages, this begs the question... if you couldn't or wouldn't quite swinging for your spouse, if he/she asked you to, what would be the alternative? An ultimatum? Cheating? Are you prepared to sacrifice your relationship if it came down to it? Are you prepared to counter "You would if you value our relationship." with "You wouldn't ask me to if you did."? At the end of the day, what price are you willing to pay? Thank you all for playing our show!
  6. I would agree with you the approach, trying to leverage what she wants, did seem petulant. But, again, there are swingers who do this all the time. I've read of many wives who get to have bi relations or have sex with other men and all their husbands are allowed to do is watch or have sex with them. To me, that's not swinging, but it is a broad term The abuse, the not believing she deserves love, and her admission she may need help, shed real light on things are indicators that she DOES need help before she can actually make a real decision about what she should do. Couples counseling may also be a good idea. Good luck!
  7. It's always difficult when you are in love with someone to have your perception of them shattered. You love your girlfriend, and you don't want to do this, but it's been made clear, without say as much, that this is a deal breaker in your relationship. If I were younger, I would tell you that "She can't stop doing it" is not true. That she's being selfish and prioritizing her desire for an open door policy over her commitment to you. That, this is one of those cases where it's not "you would if you loved me," but, "you wouldn't if you loved me." But, I'm not younger. I don't see the world as black and white as I used to. There are people who are perfectly capable of great love, but NOT sexual fidelity. Recently, Dan Savage, who writes the advice column "Savage Love" covered the topic (look up "Savage Love", and "Sex Before Dawn") Where people thanked him, saying that they thought there was something wrong with them because they were capable of great love, but could not keep from stepping out on their partners. One woman said she loves her husband, but sex with others is like a safety valve for her that helps her maintain her sanity. Dan's strongest advice to people in this position was, 1) Accept that you are one of those people that can love, but cannot remain sexually faithful, and 2) Be honest with your partners. He suggested it's best to seek partners who can accept this. On the surface, it may seem that your girlfriend is being selfish. Telling you that she wants a man but will settle for a woman as long as you don't touch her seems to reinforce this. But, you would be amazed by the one-sided rules that many swingers have, and this doesn't even come across as the worst I've heard. So, maybe it's not about selfishness. Maybe she has simply expressed that she is not a monogamous person, that this is something she enjoys, and she wants YOU to enjoy it with her, but she's not going to change who she is and suddenly become completely sexually faithful, even if she loves you. The question is, can you handle it? You're here because you don't want to lose her. But, you don't want to do it either. And, from a swinger point of view, that's a deal breaker. One partner says no, it's no for both. The relationship is more important than the extracurricular play. But, sometimes it's not that simple. Sometimes, even if we choose not to believe it, there are people who simply are not cut out for fidelity, even if they are capable of great love. And for them, there are people who either work the same way, or are very open and very accepting and can give them that freedom. You have to figure out if you are one of those people, or if you need to move on and find someone who can love only you, and wants to love only you. One bit of devils advocacy... if 50-60% of all men and woman are unfaithful to their partner at some point in time in their relationship, the odds are against most of us. As tough a pill as it is to swallow, would you rather have a partner who is open about her need for non-monogamy? Or, one who, for whatever reason, years down the road, commits an indelible act that they can never take back and you can, possibly, never forgive? One is the devil you know, the other is a matter of faith and trust. But, that's what relationships are supposed to be built on anyway. Good luck! I hope you find what you need.
  8. I agree with everyone who said they could do it, but not erase the memories. We have an advantage, in that our swinging has been VERY infrequent, and we have no friends in the lifestyle to give up or try to transition to vanilla status.
  9. I've seen a lot of threads lately where the wife has an experience that shakes the husband's confidence. I've also seen posts, periodically, that say something like, my wife/my husband, wants to quit swinging, and I don't, what should I do? All situations the did, or could, call into question continuing in swinging. Which made me wonder... Could you quit? I mean for good. Not bide your time until he/she comes around again. Could you walk away from it today, (virtually) never look back, and live happily only having sex with your spouse for the rest of your life? I'll start... I could.
  10. I'm a lot more like a woman in my thinking than my wife is. I need friendship and trust. What made swinging work for me was that our main partners were vanilla friends we had known for 6 , 11 and 12 years respectively. There was a lot of social intimacy and trust in addition to the attraction that ultimately led us to play. The few people we have played with in the lifestyle, were people we just managed to hit it off with, but there was definitely a "friends first" kind of connection. For my wife, a strong, confident personality, some attractiveness, and my permission, and she's ready to roll. Sure, there's a social interaction, but I could take weeks or months to bond enough with people and she can take an hour or two. So, closeness, friendship and trust are something I think you and I can agree upon. But, that may be where we split off in our thinking. I used the sex toy analogy, to say that, playmates, however close our friendship may be with them, are not people we bond with on either a romantic level, or one of irresistible, mountain moving passion for one another level. To us, there's a huge difference between being very attracted and turned on my someone and being so swept up in a giant wave of ardeur with them. It's one thing to come down from your orgasm. It's another thing entirely to have to come down from your partner because they are so intoxicating, and to reconnect with your husband or wife. But, we're not poly-amorous in the slightest. Our feelings, attraction, and connection to others will never be allowed to be that strong. And, on the rare occasion it's become too intense, we've cut it off. We also don't belief that we (note I said WE, not YOU) can be "in love" with more than one person at a time. And, if it seems to happen, we believe that it is because love and connection is being taken away from someone else. This is what we attribute to that need to come down and reconnect with a spouse after an incredibly connected sexual experience. It's because emotional energy that would normally always belong to your spouse, was given completely to someone else, and has to be taken back from the other person to be given to your spouse again. But, I agree, in the end, it's about what you and your partner agree too, and how you maintain your communication with one another. I think the questions the original poster still needs to answer are: Was his wife really having just a great time, or did she get a little too swept away? And, what is there comfort level. I would find the level of intensity he described seeing, and you describe in your situation as very threatening to my relationship. I want my wife to have a great time. I don't want her even temporarily "in love with", or unable to resist, another man. I would be very hurt if my wife pushed me away like that, or if my wife didn't want to have to think about me all the time while she was having sex with someone else. For us (different strokes, I understand) being a presence in each others hearts and minds, whether we are playing together or along, is important to us. s
  11. I would completely agree on most accounts. But, in recognizing the issue as his, he questions the accuracy of his perceptions of her behavior. He MIGHT not be wrong about what he saw and experienced when he tried to connect with her. She MAY have been not just really caught up, but TOO caught up. My wife is the ultimate hostess. She may get very into her partners, and very en-rapt in what she is feeling. She may be experiencing something I can't give her (see afore-mentioned 10 inch penis). But I'm always part of the equation, and she can, and will, always pull back from it for me. What I'm getting at is, he may be very emotionally close to the situation. But, she pushed his hand away when he needed to connect with her. She didn't want him to be part of the equation, even as her "anchor" because she was so wrapped up in her partner. Let's give the benefit of the doubt and suggest that, perhaps the original poster's emotional state caused him to misinterpret what happened. Let's say she didn't REALLY push him away, he just thought she did. He should still be able to talk with her about it. She should be willing and able to put his mind at ease, at least for the moment. But, if it happens again...NOT her extreme pleasure, BUT her pushing her husband away, he would not be wrong in asking her to NOT be with him anymore. Because the connection is threatening. I realize when someone seems TOO close to a situation, it's easy to dismiss, or diminish their perception of an experience. I've seen it with my own eyes what happens when two people connect and lock onto each other like that. I was emotionally close to the situation. I also wasn't wrong about what I saw or the harm it can do. You don't have to be swingers for it to happen, and it seriously risks crossing a line.
  12. There's an old phrase, "just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean people aren't out to get you." Just because you are insecure or uncomfortable about something doesn't mean you are wrong. If what you were seeing was just her experiencing great pleasure, and it made you insecure, it's understandable, and overcomable. But, the way you described, if I am not misinterpreting your writing, was the kind of "Our eyes locked, our clothes came off, and we fucked for hours in the middle of the freeway," kind of passion that I have heard swingers say they stopped seeing people because of. The connection was too strong and it risked jeopardizing the primary relationship. And, I agree with this. My wife always makes a human and a physical connection. But, she never loses sight of her connection to me. Even when she is getting pounded by a guy with a 10 inch penis and is caught up in pleasure, she never loses sight of me. She would never push me away because she either wanted so much attention on her partner that she couldn't stand to touch my hand, or because she wanted to, possibly, not be reminded that there is someone else she should be anchored to. Even when she has played separately, she does it with me in mind. I gave her permission, I asked for a story. She says, it's easy to do, because it's like I'm there with her. And she never comes home acting like she needs time to reconnect with me. What Wisconsin describes as the way she does things, sounds a lot like what you described your wife doing. And, I have to say I'm one of those folks that will disagree with her, politely. I believe you can be emotionally connected to a partner, and enjoy great pleasure with them, without being carried away by them so much that it takes you time to pull yourself 100 percent; back from them, and give yourself 100 percent; back to the person you belong with. Sure you replay it in your head. It was hot. Then you replay it for your partner. If someone is physically better, you can be glad for your partner, and you can learn what they know. But, if your partner connects with that person on a noticeably greater, more visceral level, than you do, and that connection manifests in the way they have sex, I believe it's something to be concerned about and avoided One of the more pervasive undercurrents I have noticed lately in topics is of men that are getting insecure, however justifiably so, and being told to "buck up", because they are only threatened by their wives' pleasure and shouldn't deprive them. Isn't one of the first rules, of swinging, that if either partner isn't comfortable with something it stops? You shouldn't be afraid to tell her you want to back things off, or back away from HIM. Does that mean depriving her of pleasure? Hell yes. Sorry. She's YOUR wife. If necessary, she can get pleasure from you. Hope this gives another perspective. Good luck.
  13. I realize I've been away from this thread for a few days since I posted. Thanks to ALL who shared their experiences and their advice. It's very helpful to get similar and different points of view. I did go back to get checked. I was mildly concerned about the tenderness (no swelling or discoloration) nearly two weeks later. I was especially concerned about my inability to maintain a full erection. Best I could get was hard, but not as hard as usual. I admit it. I measured. And, I was noticeably smaller, even though things were mostly ready for action (and I can't afford to get smaller . So, I was afraid I had some kind of testosterone issue. But, the feedback I got was "You had an especially difficult surgery. It's still very early. Get some tighty-whities, and expect it to be at least another 4-6 weeks before you start feeling 100%. So, I'm easing off of it, and things seem to be correcting themselves. Thanks again! I hope this thread helps others. p.s. Did ANYONE feel bummed knowing you can't have children anymore?
  14. It's totally understandable that you would be insecure. 1) She demands sexual independence. If I were you, I would feel like doesn't need me, when she is not sexually committed (monogamous or swinging only together). 2) her dictating the parameters of your swinging. She has stated that she NEEDs other men. Laying it down as a requirement, they way you depict it, says to me that this is happening with or without you. 3) She has also made it clear that she gets to play but you don't, unless it's men you want. That would be a deal breaker for me. I firmly believe that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If she gets other men, you should get other women or she doesn't get her other men. 4) Being told constantly that her lay-du jour was the best ever, comes across as inconsiderate and ball-busting. She may be bragging because she's excited, but there SEEMS to be a part of her that likes humiliating you. That may not be a bad thing because the fact that it turns you on so much, means you are into humiliation to a degree. But, humiliation, like BDSM, is meant to create a fantasy situation that satisfies a need. It's not supposed to really be hurtful. It's good that you have honest communication with your wife. From your writing, I honestly can't tell if that communication goes beyond her dictating the parameters of your swinging, and you being willing to tell her how you feel about something if it bothers you. I can't tell if she cares enough about how you feel, to change what she does to make you feel more loved and secure. But, you raised an interesting scenario, and I'm on a role, so I figured I would chime in.
  15. Others have named the standard points: 1) That many husbands try to get their wives to swing and 2) that those husbands equate their wives excitement about the fantasy with a desire for the reality. Let me play devils advocate... How do you know YOU really want this? You've swung before, but with whom? Was it someone with whom you had a completely loving and devoted relationship, so you know what it would feel like to have a person who is THAT important to you, have sex with someone else? Sure, you may like the IDEA of getting to have sexual variety yourself, and you may get turned on by the IDEA of an MFM. But, are you really ready for the reality of your wife being penetrated as you might think? And, let me share another reality with you. What if she does it, and really likes it? That can be very threatening. And, what if SHE likes it but YOU don't? I have seen myriad postings by the spouse (sometimes the woman) who say, "my husband/wife decided they don't enjoy swinging, but I want to keep doing it, what do I do?" I can tell you from experience that it can be very threatening when you realize how sexually independent your wife is of you. So, be careful what you wish for.
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