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NorthLaCpl

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NorthLaCpl last won the day on June 22 2009

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About NorthLaCpl

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  • Birthday 12/29/1961

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  1. Well, that's sort of complicated to answer. The idea of her with another man was first brought up by the boyfriend, but once it was brought up, she immediately loved it and took full ownership of the idea. And then for about a 24 hour period, she didn't think she could handle the idea of the boyfriend being with another woman, but the more she thought about it, the more she liked the idea of not only the boyfriend being with another woman, but her as well. And at that point, the gloves came off and her attitude was, any and everything goes. And it did. See my reply in another thread that may clarify things for you:
  2. Hummmm, this one comment got me to thinking about a few things here. And as a guy who's experienced a situation similar to your own, I've been very interested in what the veterans here on the board would have to say about your situation. And it seems to me that by and large, you've received some solid advice. But then again I do freely admit that when it comes to the lifestyle, if a little knowledge is dangerous, well hell, I'm not even mildly hazardous. But that said, one thing has occurred to me and it's this: Maybe you should back off and look at it from a novices point of view? Back up to where you both were when you first started discussing this. What were your fantasies? What turned you on about it? What were you looking to get out of it? I just can't help but get the feeling that you're a bit like myself. A somewhat old fashioned guy who grew up with the belief that "good girls don't". When you met the right gal, she was put on a pedestal and kept pure. And sure, you may play with the wild ones, you surely didn't take em home to mama. Still yet, time passes, you mature, and you start thinking about your woman as a more sexual creature. You like the idea of seeing her as purely sexual, of her enjoying herself and enjoying sex but just for the sake of sex, no emotions involved. So maybe you explore starting down this road. But here's the kicker. Maybe you don't research this thing first. Because hell, how complicated can it be? It seems pretty straight forward in your fantasies! You've fantasied about it, you've both talked about it, and it's played out in your mind a hundred times, so naturally you feel confident enough to map out a path forward. Now the boundaries are set and you really believe you've got all the bases covered. But in reality, you don't even know the questions to ask. But you soon learn the same thing we learned, that walking into this lifestyle cold is a bit like filing a flight plan for an asteroid. That any and everything can happen, and will. And see, here's what we missed. First of all, unlike in our fantasies, in the real world, the other three people get a vote, and not only can they vote, they will and unless things are done correctly, they just might vote on the fly! Secondly, maybe like me you find out that your woman is one hell of a sexual creature. That while it was pretty hot to think about in a fantasy, in real life it was a bit of a kick to the gonads. In my fantasies, I thought I'd have to hold her hand and maybe even persuade her, talk her though this, but no, that wasn't the case at all. In reality, she left me setting on my thumb while she went forth and did exactly what we'd talked about. So to me, it really comes to this: I realized it's a bit futile to get pissed off at the fox after willingly throwing her in the hen house. That is of course an option, but the other option is to maybe believe her when she says that she loves you, believe her when she says it's you she wants to be with. And maybe realize you've both learned something about each other and use it as a tool to grow together. Of course another option is to jet her and move on to someone new. But what happens if you start wanting to revisit these old urges? Do you start down this old path with a new woman? Now wouldn't that be a mucked up deal? Just something to think about.
  3. Yeah, I do have to admit that your scenario makes a lot of sense. Added to the fact that I'm 6' 2" / 235 lbs, so I'm a fairly big boy who's never been able to master a poker face. (Bad as I hate that fact) If I'm thinkin' it, you can read it. So that said, I was absolutely not going to cause any drama in the club, nor was I planning on going medieval on him. But I do think the real truth is he probably saw my face and then remembered our previous conversation and decided screw this, and left the scene. It's funny you should say this Slevin, this is pretty much what I told her last night. You know guys, obviously I've turned this thing inside out and not only in my head, but in my heart as well. And the one thing I've learned is I can't always get my head and my heart to agree. And Dave, my head has agreed with most everything you and Kat have told me, even though my heart has often lagged behind and continued to feel hurt and betrayed. My heart has continued to ask what if? Will she do it again? Where is her heart? Was everything we agreed to only lip service so she could get what she wanted? Well of course most of these are the childish questions of a bruised heart, and I'm forcing myself to see and accept that now. And as if I needed further proof, just this morning she came down with shingles around her neck which is a sure sign of extreme stress. Nothing less than visible evidence of how greatly this has upset her. She has been so worried I was going to leave her that it's made her physically sick and that fact sickens me. Bottom line is this: We both agreed before we went into that club that no matter what happened, we wouldn't let anything end us. If the experience went pear shaped, we would continue together no matter what. Well, I'm going to honor that agreement. Through this ordeal I've learned a lot about the lifestyle, a lot about her, and yes, I've learned a lot about myself. I've learned I'm quite possibly too structured to fit into this lifestyle without further education and contemplation. I've learned that while she damaged my trust, I damaged hers as well. In clamming up and shutting her out that night, I wounded her greatly and went back on my word that we could talk though anything. That night I didn't think I could talk, I didn't even know how. But I have since and what I have realized is this: For the most part, you guys are right, it wasn't some well thought out plot, and it wasn't that she was trying to deceive me. It was a large combination of things that came together at just the right moment to screw us and the situation over. I'll say one last thing, I don't think either of us would want to play with this particular couple again, as I still suspect they were less than honorable. And yes, I have asked myself if this is pretty much the norm with people in this lifestyle. ie, when it comes to sex, get yours and let the chips fall where they may. However, the people here who've taken the time and effort to help us have shown me that there is honor and caring among the people in this community, and that has restored my faith that maybe better things are possible. Thanks guys, from both of us.
  4. Not that I really have a dog in this fight, I do have to say I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it this way. And Famous, you and I are somewhat in the same boat here, and I do believe we both have a decision to make and it's this. Either forgive her or leave her. But holding this thing over her head will serve no purpose at all. Demanding she grovel and strive to regain your trust, hell I don't even know how she'd do that. All it will do is create resentment that will manifest itself in other ways. Then one thing will lead to another and it'll become an avalanche and there will be no fixing it once that happens. I think it really comes to this. We have to decide rather to trust them again and then just see what happens. And if their not worth the risk, just cut em loose and move on, but what I won't do is belittle her or drag this thing out any longer than necessary for me to understand where we both stand. Once that's understood, make the call and live with it. That said, I can very much relate to how you feel, I'd be pretty torqued myself. Best of luck amigo
  5. Thanks Dave Kat for your input. And I must agree with you on how unrealistic most of our rules seem now. But imagine two people discussing this and never even having researched it on a board like this. We were totally winging it here and what we were trying to do is keep somethings just for us and totally separate from the sex. So it was actually her that came up with the no kissing and no dancing rule. And it was also her rule to use a condom during oral sex. That said, I really have no problem believing all of these boundaries would most likely have went away with experience, but we were just babes in the woods here so to speak. And looking at it now, our jumping into an on premises club for our first time may have just put us in way over our heads. You ask if we'd discussed rules or boundaries with the other couple, well no actually. We flirted a bit in the hallway and then just went to a room. And yes, I kinda thought we'd start out talking but instead, my girl friend reached over and laid a kiss on the other gal, and just like that they were rolling. And that was when he gave me his advice on how we proceed. And sadly, that was the last of any discussions. And while I do feel wronged by them, they didnt' know this was our first time, and by watching my girl friend in action, you'd have never guessed it. So there is that. Julie, as I'd mentioned above, yes, there was miscommunication all the way around, or lack of communication I should say. But let me say this and maybe put a finer point on why I still feel betrayed by her and by the other couple. It's the issue on the oral sex and on that point I'll just have to say I disagree with everyone here who maintains that oral sex isn't sex. While it may not be in the swinger community, it surely is to the world at large and it was to us as per our prior discussions. It really broke down like this: 1) We go in the room and she and the other gal start to get it on. 2) My GF lays down beside the other gal and they started kissing. And it was then that he started doing his wife and I "tried" to do mine. 4) I ask my GF is she wants him and she says "No, I want only you." I say okay, that's how it'll be then. 5) I tell her I'm running to the rest room but will be right back. 6) I come back moments later and my GF is on her knees blowing the guy. 7) He sees me, jerks his pants up and leaves the room. 8) She jumps up, hugs me and says, "I tried it and see now that I want only you" 9) When I asked her later if she remembered bullet point # 4 she says no, yet she remembers everything else. So call me a wuss if you will, but bullet points 4, 7, 8, & 9 just pegged my BS detector to the max. Because of his bolting from the room and her jumping up and not only coming to me but the first words out of her mouth, I think it indicates she knew at the time she was doing something wrong. And I think the semantics are irrelevant. We'd agreed oral was sex and we agreeded we'd both agree before it happened. I asked her if she wanted it, she clearly said no, I leave and she gets straight to it then covers it by saying she was drunk and didn't realize what she was doing. So after all I've read, I do realize our rules were a bit too tight to be realistic. I realize after reading what Dave & Kat's advice that maybe jumping into a club scene was a bit much for us, or for me I should say. She was fine with it. But, and this is a biggie, I still have this feeling she knew full well what she was doing and just figured screw the rules. Yes, the other couple led her into it, but I believe, hell I know, I saw her, she went very willingly and the kicker is, I don't believe she was too drunk to know she was doing something that would upset me. I think her jumping up and saying what she said to me is an indication. I think she decided to do what she wanted and blame it on a few beers and in the heat of the moment, I was really not a concern to her until I showed back up faster than expected. And yeah, I know, as Dave & Kat said, it's not realistic to expect action to stop just because one person leaves the room for a few minutes. And I agree. But on the other hand, I think I deserve a bit of latitude here in that it was our very first time and we had very, very firm agreements that NOTHING new happens without both of us in the room at the time. So all things considered, I still feel she's lying when she says it was the drink and the missunderstanding. I think it contributed, but I think the main thing was she just did what she wanted to do and really wasn't thinking about the consequences at the time. Or put another way, during that brief period of time, "WE" were not a priority to her, what she wanted was the priority.
  6. No, when I walked out it was girl/girl action, then when I walked back in, she was blowing him. So there was no intercourse, but I have to believe had I took longer to get back there would have been. But I don't think it matters, I see no difference between a blow job and intercourse. It's still sex.
  7. I think this is good advice and I have tried to broach the subject. But for now her emotions are a little raw and that's understandable. But thanks for helping me remain open minded. I can't say it's been easy.
  8. That's the one thing I have figured out, and I've chosen to go for happy. And once I figured that out, it gave me the incentive to fix this. When I thought she'd intentionally misled me, I felt betrayed and dishonored. And on this night of all nights, it would have been inexcusable. But as you say, there is a big difference in misleading and misunderstanding. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was played. I've searched myself for some other viable explanation for their rapid departure and not one thing comes to mind. But no, he didn't get off. When I walked in, he had his pants at his ankles with my GF going down on him. Soon as he sees me, he pulls up his pants and leaves, it happened so fast I didn't really comprehend what was happening at the time. They were just there and then they were gone. So I can only go by what was said and what I saw. We had an agreement, he broke it soon as I left the room and maybe he didn't expect me back so soon. When I came back he figured he was busted so he simply bolted. Yeah, you get an amen for that one. It seems so simple now doesn't it. But we totally blew it when it mattered most. We did get a lesson in these too tight boundries. The night before my gf was with another woman, and as I was close by the other woman leaned over and tried to kiss me, but as this was forbidden I didn't let her, and she clearly didn't like it. It was my first indication that as our confidence grows, our boundaries may need to loosen up a bit. And you're right, maybe we do need to refocus what we want from the lifestyle, including rather we want it at all. But I do know this, she loved being with another woman, and no matter what she may say to placate my fears, I have to believe she'll always miss that. I've taken your advise on reading others boundaries. And I do want to thank you for taking the time to give me your in site. It is of great help to me and us.
  9. And I have come to this same understanding as well as my fault in the matter. I've come to understand that while we discussed our fantasies in great detail, we failed to go into that same level of detail in mapping out how we make said fantasies a reality. Yep, you've got the picture. And to be fair to her, the night before we'd met a couple and during this encounter, my GF and the other woman played while me and the other guy just hung back. And on this instance she dove right in so to speak and of course I had no issues with it. This was her first time with a woman and I wanted her to enjoy. So maybe since we had this encounter behind us, she saw no difference in sex rather it is her and a woman or her and a man, thus her rate of speed and inhibition? Since learning her interpretation of the rules, I have decided I want to work though it. And you're point on communication being more than just talking is well taken. On this night, once she "engaged" she wasn't communicating with me at all. Her and this other woman were all over each other, then when I left the room, he was quickly added to the mix, so in all this, she was totally obvious to me. Which was one of my points when we talked later. I felt I had no chance to communicate with her once this started, she was just in the zone so to speak Actually I didn't get that she'd drank too much. She'd had about 8 Guinness beers over a period of about 3 or 4 hours, there was no staggering, no slurred speech, no indication at all that she was even tipsy. But as it is, to get past this I have to make this decision: I have do decided that yes, she'd drank just enough to lower her inhibitions to the point that she did what she did with me out of the room. But it still pisses me off because in my heart, I think alcohol simply brings out what a person wants to do to begin with. Or put another way, what she wanted to do was more important than what I thought about it. You're right, we both played a major roll in the break down, and when we dove deeper into the subject she brought up a good point. She knew I liked the idea of seeing her enjoy herself with someone else, and in her mind, that was that. And open and shut issue. She felt that gave her the green light to just flat out go for it, to her there was no "pace". And that's fair enough, I had no idea she took it like that. As I told her, at a different pace I'd have most likely agreed to everything. But as things went, I barely recognized who she was. Thanks again for your well thought out replies, it really has helped me see both sides of this and give me some level of faith that we can work though it.
  10. Thanks for the welcome and the great reply to my questions. Clearly you get that this has caused us a huge amount of pain so I am very thankful for your help and the sharing of your experiences. And as to the alcohol, we can chalk that up as a lesson learned. No doubt that must be used in great moderation with this type of environment. One thing I've learned since posting my questions is that her and I had a totally different understanding of the rules. In her mind, the very act of going into that room with the couple meant everything was consented to and we both had full permission to go all the way with the other couple. Her understanding was that if anywhere along the way one of us wanted to stop it, we could. My understanding was we go in and take things in steps. As in she starts out playing with the other woman and then we decide what part the men play, which is pretty much what this other guy told me, or that's how I took it when he said we don't touch each other's woman until we both agree to it. So hell, maybe I am a prude and maybe my GF just took the more traditional approach much faster than I could? And no, it doesn't dismiss the fact that she went forward while I was out of the room, that was one rule broke, and she did it without a condom, another rule broke. So I'm left having to accept her excuse that it wouldn't have happened had she not drank to excess. As to what part the other couples leaving played in my anger, you're right, it plays a big part but not in the way you think. In my mind, when I returned and saw her going down on him, first of all I knew he'd broken the agreement we had just made and I felt I'd been played. And their abrupt departure just added to my feeling they knew they were guilty so they fled the scene. Then seeing her breaking the rules of using a condom, no action unless we are both in the room, and the big one, no action at all without permission was the deal breaker. I felt played by all involved. But now with her explanation that she thought she had permission does change things in my mind. Before I felt she behaved as a slut and used the excuse of being drunk as a get out of jail free card to justify her actions . But as per her explanation, she thought she had permission but went further and faster than she would have had she not been drinking. So as to who's view point on the rules is the more correct or more realistic one, I really don't know. I do know I feel dishonored that our agreements were not enough of a priority for her to curb her drinking and maintain control, especially considering this was our first time out and such an important leap. But as is, this has caused such a huge rift that it will probably be our first and last experience with the lifestyle. And our trust on all levels is damaged, mine for the reasons I've stated. And hers in she felt free to do this and then got snapped back. It's kind of become a lose/lose situation. On edit: But that said, she is very, apologetic and very, very remorseful. In fact she's devastated. And when I thought she had played me, I really didn't care. But with this new information as to her understanding of the rules, now I'm left trying to process it all and see what part I played in the events. I guess we didn't know it could get so complicated so fast.
  11. Well oddly enough, that was her rule. And maybe that is what led me to the misconception that we would proceed slowly rather than 0 to wide open in one swoop. But I see your point, it does seem silly, thus my comment about our being rookies.
  12. My girlfriend and I have been together for 2 years now and have enjoyed a wonderful relationship. We love each other and communicate very well. Recently during some pillow talk I mentioned that I sometimes found it hot to think of watching her have sex. She was shocked and surprised that I would be okay with it, but to make a long story short, she decided she would like to see me with another woman and this was something worth exploring together, so we decided to go to an on premises club and see what happened. Before going in we made the following rules: 1) No kissing or dancing with other partners (We felt that was something reserved just for each other) 2) Condoms would be used, even for oral sex. 3) Either of us could say no at any time and everything stops. 4) Preserving each others feelings was paramount, if one or the other is uncomfortable, we back away. 5) And full sex with anyone else would be decided and discussed on the spot, and agreed upon before proceeding. Now, I do realize that probably looks like some rookie rules, and that's because they are. We were determined to make sure nothing hurt our relationship and nothing came between us. So, it's a Saturday night and we are at the club and have been fooling around with each other. My girlfriend was very open and didn't care who saw what. I realized then she was more comfortable than I was right off the bat. Then we ended up hooking up with another couple for a few minutes, this consisted of my girlfriend going down on the other girl while we men watched. Well then later we met a very attractive couple in the hall. We talked a bit and it was very clear that my GF was attracted to them both. So we went to a room and without any discussion at all, both women set on the bed and started fondling. Meanwhile the other husband told me, we are old hands at this and just a word of advice. This is all about the women getting pleasure. So we just stand back until called in, but I don't touch your woman and you don't touch mine unless we both agree. I said okay, I like that rule. So soon after my GF is going down on his wife, and she says come on over here and get inside her. So I tried, but for what ever reason, I was soft as a noodle. I just couldn't get hard no matter what I did, and mean while the other guy has moved up and is caressing his wife while my GF went down on her with gusto. Then my GF flipped over on her back and tried to guide me into her while her and the other woman kissed, and as this happened, her husband moved up and started screwing his wife while both women kissed and caressed each other. And all the while, I couldn't get hard. So this to me is what's critical. I asked my GF, "Do you want him?" And she said, "No, I want only you." So I said look, let me go pee and maybe that will help me get hard. I'll be right back. So I did, and was only gone a few minutes, but when I returned, both women are on their knees in front of him and my GF is giving him head. Just as soon as I walked up, he pulls his pants up and they both leave the room. My GF stands up and said, I tried it and I see now that I want only you. I was very hurt, I felt I'd been played and betrayed. She broke the condom rule and just about every rule we'd made. We left the club soon after and when I could finally bring myself to discuss it with he, her response was that she wasn't trying to deceive me or do something without me knowing. She just felt that was what we'd gone in the room for and all was okay. And she claims to not remember me asking her if she wanted him and her reply, although she does remember everything said between us and this couple leading up to the event. When asked why she remembers some but not the most critical question, she says it's because she'd drank way to much and everything was a blur. That she would not have done it had she not drank so much, and I can't accept that as an excuse. Am I being a prude or totally naive here? I'm really trying to work though this.
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