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Guest Len & Ding

Dealing With Guilt

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Guest Len & Ding

We have only been swinging for three months and while we probably jumped into "full swap" a bit to quickly, neither or us want to go back to soft-swing or end swinging all together, we just enjoy it toooo much!

 

However, two problems don't seem to be getting any better. One is Jealousy and the other is Guilt. They are both way too complex for one thread so I will start with Guilt because while the jealousy is almost entirely one sided (just Ding), guilt effects us both but in slightly different ways.

 

During our meetings with other couples, Ding is completely uninhibited. At the club dances she loves to flirt, flash, dirty dance, even perform oral on guys and gals she barely knows. At an "after-party" she once took on three men and a woman at one time and experienced 20 orgasms in the process. But after the encounters, sometimes days later, she becomes riddled with guilt.

 

On the other hand I have pangs of guilt while at the orgies. Sometimes I believe it has effected my performance. After the fact I am able to rationalize the guilt away and it doesn't bother me. It's a good thing I "get over it" so I can be supportive of my wife who sometimes becomes quite depressed. Our participation in the lifestyle is beginning to look an awful lot like an addiction. We enjoy the sex so much but then there is that letdown and questioning... then it is time for another party and the next thing you know Ding is giving a lap-dance and I have my head between some girl's thighs and we both end the evening fulfilling some long held fantasy in wild abandon.

 

Anybody else experience such a roller coaster ride? Does it get better? The sex keeps getting better and better but I am getting a little worried about Ding's mood swings. One thing I might note. While Ding is often mistaken for someone half her age and usually gets "carded" at clubs, she is at "that age" and it could be a hormonal thing.

 

Any comments or suggestions? Especially would like to hear from people who have been through this same sort of thing.

 

Thanks.

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I don't profess to be an expert here, but it sounds to me as if you two need to take three steps back. Judging from all of your previous posts it seems as tho you guys have plunged into the deep end rather than wade thru the shallow waters first. Jealousy and guilt are powerful emotions and can destroy a relationship. Perhaps the question that you should ask yourselves is "Are we willing to let this destroy our marriage or relationship?".

 

Based on my own personal experiences, my husband and I had these issues resolved before we ever participated in any sexual activity with others. Sure we have run into a few bumps here and there, but have never had to address an outright jealousy or guilt issue.

 

I would suggest taking a break for a while and having a "heart to heart", to address and resolve these issues with each other before participating in any other sort of swing activity.

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I have to say that I agree with Lori on this one. You really need to take a step back and evaluate your relationship. If their is that much jealousy and guilt there something is not right. Hubby and I spoke about the lifestyle for about 6 years before we ever entered into it. Our relationship means more to us than having other playmates. And we both came to agreements on everything that we could thing of. Little things may come up, but it is nothing to deal with. To me the lifestyle that we all live is not to bring pain, but to bring more pleasure (physical/visual) that is already in your relationship. I would get out immediately if I thought it was going to bring despair in my relationship. And for us, we jumped straight in the deep end (as you called it) but we had already covered the issues. So the issues that you deal with, are not there for us. I have a few friends that have talked about the lifestyle, and I have talked them out of it. Because, to me (only my observation) is that their relationship is not strong enough to bring people into their relationship. If the two of you really love each other, PLEASE.... take that step back and get your relationship right first, to avoid these issues. Or if they do come up they will be so small that you will be able to handle them. I think we all would hate to see anyone split over the lifestyle. :sad:

 

We wish you two all the best.

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I have to fully agree with the 2 posters above you both have to sit down and get to the bottom of this I have seen firsthand what jealousy and guilt can do to a relationship it doesnt get any better unless you both can overcome this the couple i know that is going through the same thing they are at a stage where their marriage is really rocky and it is not getting any better it started out the way you are describing and with all the advice I give them to step back and look at things with a clear mind and discuss whats going on and decide if this lifestyle is for them is not working they both see it as the others fault and dont talk now it has spilt over into the pressence of the couples they meet with as far as having a big fight in front of them and slinging words (also directed at the couples) getting the other couples involved in their petty arguments and attacks of each other so my advice for you or anyone that has this problem is to sit down and talk I would hate to see anyone else get to this stage of where they are at now.

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We agree fully with the previous comments. Unless you are both completely comfortable with what you are doing the swinging lifestyle is not for you. There has to be a very high level of trust between you to ensure that your sexual encounters with other partners do not put your marriage at risk. This can only be achieved in our view after a deep discussion in which you both agree on the parameters of your relationship and how far you are prepared to go in sharing yourselves sexually with others. We have found that swinging has enhanced our marriage enormously and our own sexual relationship has grown through the physical pleasure we have had not only in experiencing sex with a variety of partners but also from the visual joy of seeing each other having and enjoying sex with other people. This would not have been possible if we did not have complete trust in each other and the confidence of knowing that nothing we might do would be a threat to our marriage.

 

Any guilty feelings we might have had were before we started to swing. We had both had affairs and were fed up with the secrecy and furtiveness which went with them. After we started swinging our interest in having a variety of partners was out in the open, we were both aware of what the other was doing and all feelings of guilt disappeared very quickly.

 

So we suggest you step back for a while and discuss the state of your relationship and where you want it to go in the future before you venture out into the swinging world again. We wish you all the best - please do not do anything to put your relationship at risk.

 

Brian and Jo

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And for us, we jumped straight in the deep end (as you called it) but we had already covered the issues.

We too jumped straight into the "deep end" and like you we had discussed and resolved all these issues among others, prior to doing so. We also spent several years discussing it before taking the "plunge". I think I can speak on behalf of both myself and my husband here, I do not think that jealousy or guilt has ever been a factor for either of us although we did have an insecurity issue...on his part not mine, which we have since resolved thru communication and understanding.

 

L&D, another thing you may want to ponder is the fact that not having your own personal issues resolved is that you may inadvertently cause hurt to others who do not know or understand that you haven't done so. Judging from your post you seem to do fine in the "heat" of the moment, but one or the other suffers regret afterwards.

 

Most people that we have met who swing tend to enjoy and look forward to meeting or associating with them again, but it appears that when the after glow wears off for you some really potent (sp) emotions take over. Most swingers, and this is coming from just what I have seen, have ALL (and yes I meant to shout that) their P's and Q's in check before including anyone into their private sexual lives.

 

Take a step back, resolve your issues and then decide if this is something you really both want to do. This lifestyle, in my eyes, is not about just sex, it is about enhancing an already strong and stable relationship, not destroying it.

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We agree with the previous posts but believe you should address the roots of the problems.

 

If jealously is a problem, that is probably a fear that one of you will "fall in love" with a playmate and leave. Once you assure the other that will not happen, this problem should abate.

 

Guilt may be more difficult to address since it is likely to be deeply embedded in your psyches as a result of religious indoctrination. If this is the case, you might want to study some history as well as the bible. Some important historical truths that may help are:

 

Sex was not considered a sin until Saul of Tarsus renamed himself Saint Paul and took it upon himself to deride it. It was not because he was particularly against sex, just that he felt the end was near and anything distracting from religious devotion was to be avoided. The power-hungry "Bloody Popes" of the Middle Ages added to the attitude that sex was sinful.

 

Jesus never spoke against sex. Some historians believe he had a lasting relationship with Mary Magdelene. Who knows? Sex didn't seem to be an important issue with him.

 

The bible was assembled under Constantine when he declared Christianity the official Roman religion, some 200 years after Jesus' death.

 

If you'd like to explore a different take on the subject of spiritual sexuality, you might consider reading the novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." (How do you underline, Julie?) You'll probably have to find it in a used book store. It's a wonderful read, even if you decide in the end that it's ridiculous. Be sure to get the unexpurgated version.

 

Neither of us is a history major. We'll call upon Quin to jump in here and add to or correct what we have written.

 

We do believe that if you are able to resolve these issues to both your satisfaction, you will not only have more fun swinging but will find your own marriage greatly enhanced and your ability to communicate far beyond anything you've ever dreamed of. If not, we'd suggest giving up swinging.

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My wife and I are more than interested in this type of lifestyle with all that you and we have to offer. We have done just about everything short of full swap andcould still consider ourselves newbies. The reason is because of our own limitations. We are that couple who do not actively have an ad out there looking for the full swap just met type of thing that I have seen in personals. Believe me that we do not at all have a problem with couples that are that way. Only they can choose what works and what doesn't. We stick together ALL the time! After all, she is my life partner. Never once have I felt guilt or jealousy. I think handling jealousy would be easier than guilt. We do fantasize about swapping with anther couple or group of couples my wife riding some cock but, that day has not arrived yet and need to be sure that both of us can handle it together. Gettin' a little too aroused and can't wait till I get off......work. We have met some extremely hott couples so far and continue to do so.

 

Everyone else seems to giving great advice to you. The guilt thing has got to get handled. I guess I could only tell you where we were at and why we have not jumped in head first.

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Guest Len & Ding

Boy, sounds like you all think the deck is stacked against us! I sincerely hope that you are not right. I thought I stated rather imfatactly at the beginning of my post that NEITHER of us want to end the swinging and I guess I should also add that BOTH of us are commented to making it work. Perhaps I over stated the problem or perhaps I understated our commitment to each other. Ding and I are in a committed relationship! we have been married seventeen years and we are more in love and more turned on by each other than at the beginning. In seventeen years she and I have never went to bed angry or ever parted without a kiss.

 

That said there are the jealousy and guilt issues, but I find it hard to imagine that these aren't issues for all couples in varying degrees! Do you really mean to say that you have never questioned the ethics of your actions and never had any feelings of jealousy? Not even in the beginning?

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I always thought swinging was supposed to be fun and relaxing, at least it is for us...and we never had a jealous moment. Maybe because we talked and talked for a long time before we tried the walk...even now we do not just go to bed with anybody. With L+d, it seams like to me there are split personalities. I would say to talk and lay back and figure out what you really want!

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Guest Len & Ding
... we never had a jealous moment. Maybe because we talked and talked for a long time before we tried the walk...

Hi mehim. Probably be seeing you in a couple of weeks. You are almost certainly right. We did jump in too fast but the fact remains that we did and nothing will change that. We have had some wonderful times and we have had some rough riding but we have no regrets and are committed to our marriage with or without swinging. But "with" would be lots more fun. Don't you agree? So we intend to continue to talk while we walk cuz once you have started walking, crawling is just so damn boring. Oh but buy the way. I thought this thread was about "dealing with guilt". Everybody seems to want to comment on the jealousy issue. I asked about the guilt question because it is much harder for me to deal with. I can prove my devotion to Ding and therefore alleviate her jealousy but how do you deal with guilt? :confused:

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Guilt! I wish I had an answer but I don't; I never or should I say we never, had to deal with it. I would say maybe in time it will fade away or get unbearable, then you know what to do.

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Hi,I am new here and am not active in swinging just yet :) But if I may suggest that Jealousy and Guilt go hand in hand, which is why a lot of people seem to dwell on the Jealousy. If you look at those emotions Guilt usually comes from the feeling that you have done something wrong. Jealousy comes from the fear that either someone else has/may do something wrong, or from the fear of self-inadequacies. Now you said you both feel guilty about swinging, you during and her after. Maybe the best thing for you both to do is to figure out what is causing the Guilt, like what thoughts are going through your heads when you feel guilty, and then bring it out first. If you two can rationalize the basis of and the thoughts that make you feel guilty, it should take care of both problems at the same time :)

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L&D,

 

I guess I don't really understand why you would feel guilty if there is no emotional involvement with the people you play with and you are not doing anything behind your spouse's back.

 

In a swinging relationship you are supposed to have the blessing and encouragement of your spouse to do whatever is within your agreed upon boundaries.

 

You must be able to separate between sex and making love.

 

Our swinging lifestyle is kept totally separate from any other part of our life. We have sex with other people, we DO NOT make love to them. We can both honestly say that neither of us have ever felt jealous or guilty about anything we have ever done.

 

The only way I can see me ever feeling guilty about anything we do in the lifestyle would be if I was keeping something from Ted. As we all know, honest communication is the major key in any relationship, especially a swinging relationship.

 

I do not keep things from Ted nor he from me, and we do not go over any bounderies that we have set, so therefore, no jealousy or guilt. How could I feel guilty about doing something that he has encouraged me to do and given me his blessing as well?

 

If the problems stem from the fact that there is a little voice inside your head saying "This is wrong, this is not the way marriage is suppose to be", then I encourage you to think outside the box. There is no right or wrong way to think, it is all a matter of the way you perceive things.

 

If you truly believe that there is nothing bad, wrong or immoral about the lifestyle, and you are not going against anything you and your spouse have agreed upon, then there really should not be any guilty feelings.

 

Teresa

 

P.S.

Alura, "Stranger in a Strange Land" is a great book, another one is "Time Enough for Love". Both will open your eyes to a whole new way of thinking about sex and love :)

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Boy, sounds like you all think the deck is stacked against us! I sincerely hope that you are not right. I thought I stated rather emphatically at the beginning of my post that NEITHER of us want to end the swinging and I guess I should also add that BOTH of us are commented to making it work. Perhaps I over stated the problem or perhaps I understated our commitment to each other. Ding and I are in a committed relationship! we have been married seventeen years and we are more in love and more turned on by each other than at the beginning. In seventeen years she and I have never went to bed angry or ever parted without a kiss.

 

That said there are the jealousy and guilt issues, but I find it hard to imagine that these aren't issues for all couples in varying degrees! Do you really mean to say that you have never questioned the ethics of your actions and never had any feelings of jealousy? Not even in the beginning?

L&D,

 

I tried to be really kind and helpful in my original posting believing in your sincerity, but let me tell ya pal...I have a very low tolerance level right now. I am calling a *spade a spade*.

 

All the folks on this board have done nothing more than offer advice based on their own experiences and how they got started after much discussion before plunging into the lifestyle.

 

Your original post addressed two issues, with a concentration on guilt. Excuse us please for not BEING ABLE TO IDENTIFY what your FIRST AND FOREMOST CONCERN WAS, hmmm does the word human come to mind?

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One thing seems to be redundant here. Handle the fact that you feel guilt. Guilt is usually something that is felt when you know something that someone else does not. Atleast to me it does. Maybe I would need a dictionary for the definition. Guilt is what you have to focus on. What is causing the guilt? Once you know what is causing your guilt, then it can be time to overcome the issue.

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Boy, sounds like you all think the deck is stacked against us! I sincerely hope that you are not right. I thought I stated rather emphatically at the beginning of my post that NEITHER of us want to end the swinging and I guess I should also add that BOTH of us are commented to making it work. Perhaps I over stated the problem or perhaps I understated our commitment to each other. Ding and I are in a committed relationship! we have been married seventeen years and we are more in love and more turned on by each other than at the beginning. In seventeen years she and I have never went to bed angry or ever parted without a kiss.

 

I'm going to jump in here now. I didn't feel the need to before since what I would have said was already said.

 

Based on what we know of your swinging experience (which is a lot) you guys probably did jump in too fast and probably should back off and do more talking than playing at this point (sounds like maybe you are doing too much playing).

 

No one here has said you need to QUIT swinging, just that perhaps you should take a break until you get these issues sorted out. Issues which really should have been sorted out before you ever jumped in the sack with your first couple.

 

You came here asking for advice but once again it seems that when the advice you receive is not what you hoped/wanted it to be you get mad and don't want to listen to it. If the only advice you want to receive is what you are hoping to hear then why bother asking?

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Sex was not considered a sin until Saul of Tarsus renamed himself Saint Paul and took it upon himself to deride it. It was not because he was particularly against sex, just that he felt the end was near and anything distracting from religious devotion was to be avoided. The power-hungry "Bloody Popes" of the Middle Ages added to the attitude that sex was sinful.

 

Jesus never spoke against sex. Some historians believe he had a lasting relationship with Mary Magdelene. Who knows? Sex didn't seem to be an important issue with him.

 

The bible was assembled under Constantine when he declared Christianity the official Roman religion, some 200 years after Jesus' death.

 

If you'd like to explore a different take on the subject of spiritual sexuality, you might consider reading the novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." (How do you underline, Julie?) You'll probably have to find it in a used book store. It's a wonderful read, even if you decide in the end that it's ridiculous. Be sure to get the unexpurgated version.

 

Neither of us is a history major. We'll call upon Quin to jump in here and add to or correct what we have written.

 

Well, St Paul was celibate and preached celibacy. Never went too deep into him...what I do know and my conclusion on his celibacy was that maybe it wasn't something he particularly chose. Reports of St Paul's appearance have him deformed, bowlegged, blind in one eye, possibly a midget (definitely on the short side) and he was also prone to what sounds like epileptic seizures and was thought by many religious historians and historians to possibly be schizophrenic as there are many, many reports on his having hallucinations/hearing voices and not just when he was on the road to Damascus and experienced the proverbial light. Not quite someone, during any era, that would appeal much to the opposite sex. He was considered very zealous in his beliefs, to the point of being run out of many towns because of his preaching and if I'm not mistaken this was the reason for his eventual arrest 50something AD and his probable execution in 60 or 62 A.D. (depends upon which story you believe...some have him escaping imprisonment...most have him beheaded/executed).

 

There are probably many more historians (notice I didn't include the religious historians..tho some of them believe, but not many) that believe there is much more to Jesus and Mary Magedeline than there are not. That relationship was never as clearly defined as some of the other relationships that Jesus had. Many, many unanswered questions there especially for it to be such a monumental relationship at the end of his life. And no, Jesus never spoke about sex itself...he did speak of love, but in the context in which he spoke of, it could not lead one to believe it included anything sexual in nature (tho there are those zealots who would disagree as they believe sex to be love).

 

I could go into a long diatribe on history/eras/cultures/religion that have led to the guilt that people experience with sex, more particularly females, but this is not the thread for that.

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Guest Len & Ding
Just couldn't resist. I had ignored this thread (as I have all threads started by L&D) ...

I just don't understand what I have done to alienate folks here :confused: but apparently I have... Funny thing I really have respected people like Quinn, Julie, and most of the rest of you but since I am obviously not liked or wanted I promise never to post here again if Julie will be kind enough to remove my profile. The irony of it all is that it was the encouragement of Julie that helped us to try swinging. Now apparently even she has turned on me. I intend to only send one more message on this board,a private message to Julie requesting that all my posts and my profile be removed from this site. If you don't hear from me again, you will know she complied with my wishes.

 

The really sad thing is that I once thought this was a wonderful group. Go back and read my first posts from three months ago. I am so disappointed to find that the people I originally respected and yes, even liked have turned on me. Oh well this is only a cyber community and unthankful all I have to do to make it disappear is to remove the URL from my computer. I shall do that just as soon as I am convinced that my profile and my posts here have been deleted.

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I just don't understand what I have done to alienate folks here :confused: but apparently I have... Funny thing I really have respected people like Quinn, Julie, and most of the rest of you but since I am obviously not liked or wanted I promise never to post here again if Julie will be kind enough to remove my profile. The irony of it all is that it was the encouragement of Julie that helped us to try swinging. Now apparently even she has turned on me. I intend to only send one more message on this board,a private message to Julie requesting that all my posts and my profile be removed from this site. If you don't hear from me again, you will know she complied with my wishes.

 

The really sad thing is that I once thought this was a wonderful group. Go back and read my first posts from three months ago. I am so disappointed to find that the people I originally respected and yes, even liked have turned on me. Oh well this is only a cyber community and unthankful all I have to do to make it disappear is to remove the URL from my computer. I shall do that just as soon as I am convinced that my profile and my posts here have been deleted.

L&D,

 

You two really need to take a few steps back before considering ANY other swing activity the same as any potential swing partners should be aware of your insecurities and unresolved issues which are a set up for disaster.

 

I am sorry that you feel the way you do. All we were trying to do was give opinions based on what had worked for us in our lives. As for going back and reading your previous posts...hmm I wonder how much time it took you to delete them?

 

Once again tho you are stomping your feet like a 4 year old who doesn't get his way. I am not a very tolerant woman these days and ya really don't want to tick me off. If you need confirmation of it e-mail me with your phone number and I'll let you talk to my husband. He will be the first to tell ya.

 

And since I am on a roll here, the pity party thing just ain't gonna get it this time and didn't sit well with me the first time. Geez you burn me up...I suppose tho, I should be glad for the diversion.

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L&D the choice is yours to leave. But you need to sit back and review ALL your posts, including the ones you deleted in that one thread that I never got to read. OBJECTIVELY :D There are swinger couples here who have been swinging longer than you and your spouse have been married. You start a thread, asking some advice about some very serious, or what could become very serious, problems that you and/or your spouse are experiencing. People respond, giving you advice that you solicit and because it's not what you want to hear or it's an opinion that you may not agree with (such as the swinging friendship post) you get angry and begin attacking the posters, in a roundabout kind of way, and their years of experience in something that you've only recently became familiar with. They have seen marriages strengthened by swinging and I'm sure they've seen marriages destroyed by swinging. I, myself, have seen it over the years and you don't have to married to see what's right in front of your face.

 

People have told you over and over and over that you jumped in, head first, without testing the waters. And they are obviously correct for if you hadn't, you/your spouse wouldn't be experiencing the guilt and/or jealousy that you post of. They suggest you pull back, do some serious talking, some serious thinking, some serious inner searching as individuals and as a couple, and attempt to get past these problems (and they are problems or you wouldn't be experiencing them) before indulging any further. Ignoring them will only make them fester and can not be healthy for your marriage. Very, very sound advice from seasoned swingers...but it's not what you want to hear like Julie said. So you turn it on those that gave the advice that you asked for.

 

As for myself, I'm not ignorant to your posting. I've read all your posts, except those deleted of course. Why would I want to entangle myself and set myself up for how you treat those who only offer you sound good advice that have come from years of experience, observations and personal knowledge? Why, I'd be a fool. So, yes, I did pass over the threads that you began this time around. And to be truthful, I was SHOCKED...shocked, I tell you, to find that you weren't some young twenty something couple but that you were older than me!!! No one has *turned* on you...it's quite the opposite...no one can offer their advice without you turning it on them because you don't like what you read or it isn't what you want to hear.

 

Yes, L&D, it is possible for couples/person to indulge in great sex with multiple people and arrive back home feeling pretty darn great about the experience forever. Many, many people/couples do it quite frequently. Why would you blatantly question the advice given to you about something as serious as the two subjects you mentioned by people who may have been there, done that? Why would anyone want to indulge in something that they can't purely and totally enjoy? Swinging can bring many great experiences and friendships.

 

And yes, I agree with Lori. Your post above is nothing more than a ploy to invoke pity and we're all grown adults here and won't fall for that tactic. If you wish to leave, then leave. Don't return, REGARDLESS of whether Julie pulls your profile or not. If you wish to stay, then stay and open yourself up to the advice you so readily solicit. Whatever your decision, I wish you and your wife the best.

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I thought this thread was about "dealing with guilt". Everybody seems to want to comment on the jealousy issue. I asked about the guilt question because it is much harder for me to deal with. I can prove my devotion to Ding and therefore alleviate her jealousy but how do you deal with guilt? :confused:

I think the reason everybody is focusing on the jealousy issue is that jealousy will ruin a relationship (yes even a strong one) if it is not dealt with. Guilt, on the other hand, may cause one partner some sleepless nights, but it probably won't threaten the marriage by itself.

 

You don't say exactly what it is you are guilty about. Without knowing that, it's hard to give any advice on how to deal with it. Are you guilty about doing something that society and most religions consider taboo? If so, then you are just running into the effects of five decades of social shaping. It's to be expected, especially when you plunge into the lifestyle at warp speed. (Not saying that disapprovingly).

 

Best of luck.

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I could go into a long diatribe on history/eras/cultures/religion that have led to the guilt that people experience with sex, more particularly females, but this is not the thread for that.

I think that you SHOULD start a thread about exactly that. It seems that we have brushed a lot of tender nerves on the guilt subject. A topic about how our culture has conditioned us to feel guilty about sexual pleasure is essential. I look forward to reading educated views on the subject.

 

I think that my wife and I are lucky as we were both over-educated as scientists. Over time science has a tendency to allow you to dismiss any guilt or regret associated with a departure from our dogma. We're so used to disagreeing (with Christian dogma) on other subjects, sex just seems to fall in line. (I think that's why I've kinda stayed away from this thread until now, I had my identity crisis long ago and ain't lookin' back or feelin' guilty for anybody or anything! :D:D:D:D:D )

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Maybe I'll take some time and write a post on just that! My daughter left today for college and I'm probably going to find myself with a LOT of time on my hands and instead of sitting around weeping and being depressed because my one and only has left (which I'll probably do anyhow), I can try to write a brief (LOL I don't know that it could be brief in any way!!) post and begin a thread.

 

Scientists? YIKES. I have a saying, 'Ask me no science or math and I'll tell you no lies'. I can tolerate science stuff much longer than I can math before I get a headache. :D

 

In just sitting here thinking, the post on guilt could really start a great discussion...especially with me being a woman and my recognizing the guilt that have been hammered into women from day one...the treatment of women in history which only led to the reinforcement of the guilt not to mention the shame...lots of shame involved with that guilt. One can't argue that women have much more guilt than men overall. And I think that leads to one of the reason why there aren't more couples and even single females within the lifestyle. And then talk about being a Catholic woman...YIKES!!! Guilt city!!

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I just don't understand what I have done to alienate folks here :confused: but apparently I have... Funny thing I really have respected people like Quinn, Julie, and most of the rest of you but since I am obviously not liked or wanted I promise never to post here again if Julie will be kind enough to remove my profile. The irony of it all is that it was the encouragement of Julie that helped us to try swinging. Now apparently even she has turned on me. I intend to only send one more message on this board,a private message to Julie requesting that all my posts and my profile be removed from this site. If you don't hear from me again, you will know she complied with my wishes.

 

The really sad thing is that I once thought this was a wonderful group. Go back and read my first posts from three months ago. I am so disappointed to find that the people I originally respected and yes, even liked have turned on me. Oh well this is only a cyber community and unthankful all I have to do to make it disappear is to remove the URL from my computer. I shall do that just as soon as I am convinced that my profile and my posts here have been deleted.

 

You think I turned on you just because the advice I gave you wasn't what you wanted to hear? Because my advice concurred with many other more experienced swingers on this board (some with more experience than myself)? No, I haven't turned on you. I have spoken the truth and you just don't want to hear it AGAIN.

 

If you choose to leave that is up to you, but I will not remove your previous posts. Hopefully, some other newbies will come along at a later date and learn something from both your posts and the responses to them.

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Julie,

 

I am glad that you are not going to remove the posts as it does make it difficult to understand a thread when they have been deleted. There was much advice given here that many people can utilize, whether they be a newbie or an "oldie"....(not meant to be a slam here to those that have been in this lifestyle for a while). Jealousy and Guilt are BOTH very powerful emotions and all couples should have them in "check" before venturing into the swinging world and when those issues come up they should be addressed immediately!

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Guilt may be more difficult to address since it is likely to be deeply embedded in your psyches as a result of religious indoctrination. If this is the case, you might want to study some history as well as the bible. Some important historical truths that may help are:

 

Sex was not considered a sin until Saul of Tarsus renamed himself Saint Paul and took it upon himself to deride it.

 

Actually, *well* before Saul/Paul, Moses was given some rules, known as the Ten Commandments. One of them was "Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbors Wife." Sometimes written as "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery." So really, swinging would be a violation of God's moral direction and Will.

 

Further, I'm intrigued by the concept that "religious indoctrination" is solely responsible for guilt. People without a religious upbringing can feel guilt. Am I not correct? I would further suggest (though I have no empirical proof because how do you prove something like guilt?) that guilt may be "hardwired" in our very being and would suggest that our conscious is affected for a reason.

 

Make of that what you will, but I couldn't let the *opinion* of the Bible teaching that "all sex is good" continue. That's just erroneous teaching. In fact, sex is encouraged between marriage partners. Any other form is considered adultery.

 

Sorry to rain on your parade.

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Make of that what you will, but I couldn't let the *opinion* of the Bible teaching that "all sex is good" continue. That's just erroneous teaching. In fact, sex is encouraged between marriage partners. Any other form is considered adultery.

 

Sorry to rain on your parade.

 

I am curious as to why you are even lurking around on this board. Perhaps you were just quoting religious beliefs but your profile states you are a curious non-swinger. If you are looking to convert anyone here your efforts may prove to be a little more beneficial in Sunday School as many of us attend that too. It could be you have sat next to one of us there.

 

Sorry to rain on your parade.

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That's just erroneous teaching. In fact, sex is encouraged between marriage partners. Any other form is considered adultery.

 

Sorry, but that entire way of thinking is erroneous. By it's true definition adultery is cheating on your spouse... either mentally or physically. Coveting is the desire to take something away from someone else. If cheating is eliminated, and all actions become consensual, then it ceases to become adultery.

 

If you look at the big 10 as they were supposed to be viewed the you come up with what Jesus tried to impress upon people the entire time he was here: It's not how you dissect the letter of the law and read in your own personal interpretations, rather, it is all a matter of respecting Deity and respecting your neighbor. Is it morally wrong to steal from your neighbor? Sure it is. But if he loans you something that's ok. If he loans it to you and you don't give it back... then you have stolen it. Now you have ceased to respect your neighbor.

 

Socio-Religious philosophy will always be a matter of strong debate. And each person has the right to form their own opinion when it comes to religion. However, one mans opinion does not make it gospel...even mine. But I do know that you can obey every law of religion and still not respect your neighbor. And in doing so you have broken them all.

 

You could never rain on my parade...

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I, also, looked at his profile yesterday after reading his post and decided at that time to just stop what I was posting to him as he's probably just some religious right wing zealot invading our boards to convert us. He's just the typical hit and run here.

 

But what I do have to say in regards particularly to his posting of the bible and/or religious teachings that sex between two people who are married is encouraged. Yes, it is encouraged but ONLY for procreation. It's not encouraged as a healthy thing to share between a husband and wife, two married people are to have sex to PROCREATE, no other reason. And some religious teachings would even have you to believe that if you cum and it doesn't result nine months later into a child, it's a waste of semen.

 

Also, there is a guy in the Bible (sorry can't remember his name, maybe someone here can) who not only indulged in sexual relations with his wife but also with his daughters. The Bible speaks of this specifically, didn't condemn his incest, in fact it didn't address it at all...so are we to then believe that the Bible encourages incest? Under your thinking, we should. Do you?

 

And naw, bucky...takes a little bit more to rain on my parade, especially when it comes to some hit and run.

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Actually, *well* before Saul/Paul, Moses was given some rules, known as the Ten Commandments. One of them was "Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbors Wife." Sometimes written as "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery." So really, swinging would be a violation of God's moral direction and Will.

 

Further, I'm intrigued by the concept that "religious indoctrination" is solely responsible for guilt. People without a religious upbringing can feel guilt. Am I not correct? I would further suggest (though I have no empirical proof because how do you prove something like guilt?) that guilt may be "hardwired" in our very being and would suggest that our conscious is affected for a reason.

 

Make of that what you will, but I couldn't let the *opinion* of the Bible teaching that "all sex is good" continue. That's just erroneous teaching. In fact, sex is encouraged between marriage partners. Any other form is considered adultery.

 

Sorry to rain on your parade.

 

I'm not going to address your religiously-based antagonism to open relationships, because arguing belief systems is tedious and almost always a waste of time. However, I will note that if you believe that what we're doing is wrong, then you've picked a curious place to spend your time.

 

Regarding the question of guilt, you are correct: religion is not the sole source of guilt. Any authority figure can induce guilt. However, those who have been brought up in the Judaeo-Christian religious traditions seem to be especially susceptible to feeling guilty, because that system so frequently uses guilt as a behavior-shaping mechanism. After a while, guilt becomes almost reflexive.

 

I am not clear what you mean about hardwired guilt. If you're suggesting that a sense of right and wrong about certain sexual practices is genetically encoded within us, that's preposterous. If that were the case, then sexual behavior and sexual morality would be more or less consistent from one society to another, because we know that genetically-based urges are almost impossible to overcome.

 

But cultural anthropology tells us that many if not most primitive societies are sexually promiscuous--guiltlessly and naturally promiscuous. That's one reason why these societies were so abhorrent to the Christian missionaries who first encountered them because they clearly suggested that there is no universal sense of sexual morality, and that sexual guilt and shame is not a natural condition.

 

Guilt and shame are rational concepts. They are learned; therefore they can be unlearned. Most of us here know that first hand. I would go so far as to say that nobody who has ever truly questioned the basis of his sexual morality would ever suggest that his sexual guilt is innate. Sexual guilt and shame may seem almost natural to someone who is steeped in Judaeo-Christian morality, but if it were natural it would not be so readily undone by the simple act of rejection.

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Some excellent points have been made, and will give me some things to consider on the drive to work tomorrow.

 

As for those of you who are wondering, I've been lurking for a few months and the reason I'm here is because I find this whole cultural segment fascinating. I knew very little before I dropped in, but I feel much more educated than before.

 

I've concluded that swinging isn't for me. My reasons are my own, but after reading your many posts, I've realized it's just not my scene.

 

But please don't begrudge me if I hang out and read your posts. There's a lot of first hand experience available to learn from. And some good debate.

 

I have my Biblical interpretations - you have yours. I'm not here to tell you all to "repent or suffer the fires of Hell". I was just throwing in my two cents because I thought a prior statement was woefully misleading. I expected a lot of feedback and I got it. BOY, did I get it!

 

I'm just expanding my knowledge base and trying to share what I've learned in life.

 

I anticipate that I'll be told to crawl back under my rock and die like the rest of the hit-and-runs you get here. So be it.

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Some excellent points have been made, and will give me some things to consider on the drive to work tomorrow.

 

As for those of you who are wondering, I've been lurking for a few months and the reason I'm here is because I find this whole cultural segment fascinating. I knew very little before I dropped in, but I feel much more educated than before.

 

I've concluded that swinging isn't for me. My reasons are my own, but after reading your many posts, I've realized it's just not my scene.

 

But please don't begrudge me if I hang out and read your posts. There's a lot of first hand experience available to learn from. And some good debate.

 

I have my Biblical interpretations - you have yours. I'm not here to tell you all to "repent or suffer the fires of Hell". I was just throwing in my two cents because I thought a prior statement was woefully misleading. I expected a lot of feedback and I got it. BOY, did I get it!

 

I'm just expanding my knowledge base and trying to share what I've learned in life.

 

I anticipate that I'll be told to crawl back under my rock and die like the rest of the hit-and-runs you get here. So be it.

 

If you have formally come out of de-lurking mode, that's great, Runningman, let me be the first to welcome you. And if swinging isn't for you, you'll get no argument from people here about it. Myself, as well as everyone here, will probably be the first and most vocal that this lifestyle isn't for everyone.

 

We have hits and runs here, we have people who come telling us we are sinners and will burn in hell because of our lifestyle...so you'll have to excuse us if we're a bit gun shy.

 

It is very difficult to discuss guilt, within regards to this lifestyle, without bringing in the religious aspect as for some, that aspect has been a very dominant force within their younger years and in the preaching/teaching of *morality* it is used by parents and confirmed by priests, preachers, Sunday School teachers, neighbors, and extended relatives which all may have and should rightly have a strong influence/impact on a young life (especially if you subscribe the the theory that it takes a village to raise a child). Even if you throw away the religious aspect of guilt, there is still a long, long history of guilt tied into people's sexuality. We're talking thousands and thousands of years, especially for women.

 

I'm truly sorry for my part in jumping on you and accusing of being a hit and run. I look forward to seeing you post more often, despite if we agree or disagree on any particular subject. :kissface:

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Runningman,

 

I think Quin pretty much summed up my thoughts too. Everyone is welcome on this board whether you swing or don't. This lifestyle is not for everyone, but there is something on this board for everyone regardless of their preference.

 

Please accept my apologies for sounding so harsh. You are most definitely welcome to this board and the fact that you are honest enough to state your point of view speaks volumes. There are many good topics here that can assist in your own beliefs that do not specifically deal with swinging.

 

Again, welcome.

 

Lori

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I seemed to have hijacked this thread away from it's intended purpose, and I apologize.

 

I was merely trying to suggest to L/D one possible source of their guilt. Perhaps they're not the type to be swinging either but insist upon it anyway.

 

I also had to respond to what I felt was an incorrect interpretation of Biblical scripture. We all have our own interpretations, don't we? I hadn't even considered that the word "adultery" could have more specific connotations than just having sex with someone other than one's spouse. Don't necessarily agree with that, but to each his own.

 

Lastly, I'd like to thank Quinn and Ohiocouple for their warm welcome. I have to say I was honestly surprised that find people open-minded enough to accept a differing viewpoint on this board, and I don't mean that as a slam on anyone. I just never expected it.

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Lastly, I'd like to thank Quinn and Ohiocouple for their warm welcome. I have to say I was honestly surprised that find people open-minded enough to accept a differing viewpoint on this board, and I don't mean that as a slam on anyone. I just never expected it.

 

First off you ARE welcome. Secondly, it is refreshing to hear a point of view which comes across in a considerate manner from someone who does not entertain the swinging lifestyle. As I have said before, this board covers every aspect of life, not just swinging. There is something here for every body whether they are single, married, coupled, bi-sexual, religious, not religious....well the list could go on and on. We welcome you to the board and look forward to hearing your point of view. Perhaps you should go to the Introduction portion of the board and introduce yourself.

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I was merely trying to suggest to L/D one possible source of their guilt. Perhaps they're not the type to be swinging either but insist upon it anyway.

 

>Unfortunately, I have a feeling you are right on the money there. They aren't the first tho, and won't be the last.

 

Swinging definitely isn't for everyone, now if only everyone who wanted to swing would realize that.

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Guest <muffinmug>

Hello to all that have read this thread. This is my first time posting to this board. I did have a user name and password however, my computer crashed and i had to start all over....and who would really believe the dog ate it story.

 

After reading many of your items and comments not only on this thread but others, I felt I had to reply....at least to this one.

 

My wife and I have a ministry and our Christians. The basis of our ministry is to help those that have fallen along the way. Fallen can be any number of things or problems such as drugs, sex, violence and a host of others.

 

In this post we hope not to thump, browbeat, throw fire, judge, or try to convert anyone. We would just like to present this issue from a different perspective in hopes of bringing a new awareness on the issue of swinging.

 

First:

A Biblical perspective. To completely understand the Bible, which Christians believe to be the written word of God, one cannot just take a verse from any chapter and put it to use to satisfy a point that is trying to be made. An example is scripture states that the Lord will help those who help themselves, so now I am going to rob a bank and "help" myself to this money, or an eye for an eye so now I will kill your dog because you killed mine. Rather, a study of scripture is incorporated from different verses to lead us to a single solution.

 

The Ten Commandments were written for Moses to be given to the Israelites who had fallen from grace. The two we can use for this post are, Thou Shalt not Commit Adultery, and Thou Shalt not Covet thy Neighbor's wife.

 

Webster's dictionary(Riveside edition II) defines adultery as the act of voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.

Covet is to feel envious desire for(that which is another's).

Guilt: remorseful awareness of having done something wrong.

 

If one is involved in the lifestyle, then one is guilty of breaking these two commandments. By our own language, we acknowledge what adultery is. We break the covet when we first look at another's wife with desire. Jesus clearly said on His discourse on the Mount that he who looks at another woman with lust has already comitted adultery in his heart. Jesus further gave a list of other sins deeming us unworthy to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, idolatry, fornication(intercourse between two unmarried people), prostitutes, and a host of others. If we look at these, the all relate to sex.....outside the marriage.

 

Guilt: We can have guilt for a whole array of reasons. A pet gets run over by a car and dies,(it was my fault for not keeping my dog tied up). I had an affair, I cheated on my final exam, i stole something. Guilt comes to us when we have an internal conflict with ouselves. It is our own security alarm that gets activated when we do something that we know we shouldn't be doing. It is also how the Lord speaks to us. The Lord speaks to us in so many different ways, through our emotions, through others, and through events.

 

What does all this lead to? If you are experiencing guilt, as stated by many, find out why the guilt is there. Talk, share your thoughts and then pray on it. Even Jesus who walked on water prayed. In the desert, in the garden, and while hanging on the cross, His last few breaths were in prayer. I would not talk to a plumber about an electrical problem nor would I see a carpenter about a transmission leak...prayer changes things.

 

If you have true feelings and need help, we are here for you. With the moderator's permission, email us a muffinmug@yahoo.com. If we have a friend, and he/she was an addicted to drugs, would we want them to get help? If alcohol was the problem, would we want them to have rehab? Of course we would. Sex is also an addiction....it is a bigger problem than any other social illnesses. Pronography, internet, magazines all add to the addiction. We would like to say that if one is unable to help themselves, we are here for you. Please, do not hesitate to let us know.

 

We would like to say thank you for your time. We hope that this has been a help to you. Guilt is a good thing but also can drag us down if we let it. May God Richly Bless you all.

 

Richard and Debora

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[quote=;8151]

First:

A Biblical perspective. To completely understand the Bible, which Christians believe to be the written word of God, one cannot just take a verse from any chapter and put it to use to satisfy a point that is trying to be made. An example is scripture states that the Lord will help those who help themselves, so now I am going to rob a bank and "help" myself to this money, or an eye for an eye so now I will kill your dog because you killed mine. Rather, a study of scripture is incorporated from different verses to lead us to a single solution.

 

The Ten Commandments were written for Moses to be given to the Israelites who had fallen from grace. The two we can use for this post are, Thou Shalt not Commit Adultery, and Thou Shalt not Covet thy Neighbor's wife.

 

Aren't you simply taking those two commandments out of context to satisfy your point? Remember it is the church that holds the ten commandments above the rest of the old testament. Not the bible itself. If we are to read the old scripture as a whole an entirely different message will present itself. "Be honest and be kind." This is the message of the bible. Old and new testament.

 

I also noticed that you said that you have your own ministry. May I take that to mean that you are not Catholic?

 

If so remember that as a consequence of your ministry you are breaking the first commandment as interpreted by the original Christian church. "You shall have no other gods before me." As Constantine saved Rome and laid the groundwork for modern Christianity the church came to regard deviation from it's teachings as a sin against the first commandment. If Jesus ordained Peter to be his church on earth, then rejection of Peter's church is rejection of God.

 

As a recovering Catholic, I always find it convenient that protestants often are the most literal and fundamental acolytes of Biblical verse when by their very testament they reject the church that Jesus created. So I say that if you get to pick and choose what parts of the Bible to follow and what parts of Christian dogma to follow then the rest of us should be allowed the same.

 

Submitted after 5,295 masses as an altar boy and Serra Knight of Arinagour.

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[quote=;8151]Hello to all that have read this thread. This is my first time posting to this board. I did have a user name and password however, my computer crashed and i had to start all over....and who would really believe the dog ate it story.

 

After reading many of your items and comments not only on this thread but others, I felt I had to reply....at least to this one.

 

My wife and I have a ministry and our Christians. The basis of our ministry is to help those that have fallen along the way. Fallen can be any number of things or problems such as drugs, sex, violence and a host of others.

 

In this post we hope not to thump, browbeat, throw fire, judge, or try to convert anyone. We would just like to present this issue from a different perspective in hopes of bringing a new awareness on the issue of swinging.

 

I had to chuckle at who would believe the dog ate it story. That is so true, my third grade teacher was so much wiser than I.

 

Your opinion are welcome, as is all opinions that are expressed on this board.

 

I think though that you can email Julie and she can help you with getting your original screen name and password back for you.

 

You are welcome to read thru this board and post your opinions as we do not discriminate against anyone. This board revolves around everyday life not just sexual issues. I am sure you will find plenty of good reading and perhaps you may learn something that may assist you in your own personal life. You do not have to be a swinger to be here, we have many that are not.

 

The only thing I kindly ask tho, is when you reply to a post (and we want you to) just be sure to reply to the question at hand and not give a sermon. Feel free to offer your advice, opinions and post your email address should someone like to discuss it further with you. (This was not an attempt to flame or discourage you from becoming a part of the community as you were obviously a part of it before your computer crashed.)

 

Please check with Julie about re-instating your screen name and your password.

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