What makes a swinger?

[incommunicado]

The Modern Guide to Swinging at http://www.sexuality.org/mgswing.html describes swinging as

"a form of recreational social sex between consenting adults, most commonly consisting of male/female couples meeting other male/female couples for sex and/or ongoing intimate friendships."

It goes on to summarize the variing degrees of acceptance of female vs male singles in swinging and female vs male bisexuality and other issues. (take a peek and then come back to my posting)

I always thought of swinging as something that largely occurred between comitted couples, married or not. But I am seeing less and less of that. My wife and I are encountering a lot of "swing partners", couples in their mid-30s down to high teens, who are just people who like to have sex with each other as well as others (like golf or tennis partners).

Not meaning to sound overly moral by any means, but isn't there some basic foundation of swinging that this flies in the face of? Isn't part of the heart and sould of swinging the dichotomy between emotionally committed adults who have seperated out love from sex and thus enhanced their comittment to one another as well as their enjoyment of sex?

That said, where do singles really fit in to the scenario?

In the end, are couples who swing together but are not emotionally committed to one another truely swingers or just riding the swingers gravy train? Should they have their own category/clubs/resources etc.?

Are singles, male OR female, truely swingers or are they merely (forgive the undertones) resources FOR swingers?

And YES, I am looking to define something that some people would like to leave vague.

[yawanna]

I struggle with that myself.. and it's not because I need a label to identify myself with, or I need things black and white..altho.... too many people say 'we are swingers' and the way things are now, no one can be sure just WHAT that means.

One local club owner sent me an email that said Swinging is couples trading partners...until you trade partners, full out, you aren't swinging. I asked for clarification about single for 3 somes or soft swinging, but she never responded.

We are seeing a yes, disturbing trend of people coupling up just to have a 'swinger' experience, or to get into clubs on couple only nights, or to get to house parties that around here are couples only. Supposedly 'members' only and they've been interviewed but we still meet people that are married to other people and do this 'on the side' behind the partner's backs, etc. Something I'm not comfy with but happens more and more.

And more recently, 20 somethings who we've found aren't actually having sex with other people, they are there for titilation and new clubs are catering to that.

It's like teen rebellion A way to do something 'wild' and 'wicked'.. they have NO idea what wild and wicked CAN be

My personal opinion is that the younguns come for something different.. something spicey.... They have no vested interest, very little respect for the lifestyle, and it's all about a live 'girls gone wild' tape or occasionally maybe banging strangers. For a bit. Then...off to something else.

They aren't much better than the majority of single men who just want a 'kick'.

That's my 2 cents..the 8 cents is free

[BiloxiCouple]

I feel that the basic definition of swinging is about the sex.

Everything else that you can apply to this is your own personal rules, attitudes and limitations. And with that comes the enjoyment of swinging. Everyone is different.

Variety is the spice of life. We know what kind of seasoning we like.

[incommunicado]

Originally posted by BiloxiCouple
I feel that the basic definition of swinging is about the sex.

Everything else that you can apply to this is your own personal rules, attitudes and limitations. And with that comes the enjoyment of swinging. Everyone is different.

Variety is the spice of life. We know what kind of seasoning we like.

I agree, but I still think this applies to comitted couples. The rules, attitudes and limitations you speak of (i.e. same room vs seperate, friends first vs just playmates, soft vs full swing, etc.) are more geared towards making it more comfortable for committed couples to have sex with others, not towards fre and easy casual sex for singles (regardless of whether they play as partners or not).

I admit I feel kind of cheated. Both because these are not the people I want to meet, but they keep showing up, and because, when I was single, I actually had to work to just to meet people, let alone have sex. I had to go to bars or parties etc. and let the chips fall where they may. Now, single men and women are stepping outside of the genre of the bar or party hookup, partnering up, going to swingers clubs and taking out personal ads. I guess I just feel like there's a hierarchy they are violating by doing this.

If I were to answer Yawanna's question about where singles for threesomes fit in the definition of "Swinger", I would say that the Swingers are the couple and the single (male or female) is just a willing 3rd party. Classist, I know, but it's how I feel about it.

[jen]

Originally posted by BiloxiCouple

Variety is the spice of life. We know what kind of seasoning we like.

Wow, just wow.

[yawanna]

I agree, but I still think this applies to comitted couples. The rules, attitudes and limitations you speak of (i.e. same room vs seperate, friends first vs just playmates, soft vs full swing, etc.) are more geared towards making it more comfortable for committed couples to have sex with others, not towards fre and easy casual sex for singles (regardless of whether they play as partners or not).

wow....now that is something I hadn't considered before! This IS at it's foundation an activity for couples in committed relationships, thus all the rules, guidelines and advice. The only advice singles seem to ask is 'how do I meet couples or a date?'

Might that explain why rules, limitations, agreements, boundaries, etc. aren't always respected by others, even couples?

If the couple aren't emotionally committed to each other or the preservation of their relationship, then why care about others?

[LadyCleo]

Originally posted by incommunicado
I admit I feel kind of cheated. Both because these are not the people I want to meet, but they keep showing up, and because, when I was single, I actually had to work to just to meet people, let alone have sex. I had to go to bars or parties etc. and let the chips fall where they may. Now, single men and women are stepping outside of the genre of the bar or party hookup, partnering up, going to swingers clubs and taking out personal ads. I guess I just feel like there's a hierarchy they are violating by doing this.

I found this post to be rather interesting. You feel cheated because there are people who found an easier route than you?

I, personally, could not care less. What other people choose to do is their own business. If they are "play partners", why should I care? If they are cheating, why should I care? I am not looking for someone to marry, I have that already. I am not looking for a committed long-term relationship, I have that too. Yeah, it sucks for the other person's spouse and I would never intentionally have sex with someone I knew to be married to harm that relationship, but if I found out that someone I was playing with in an on-premise club was married to someone that wasn't their play partner, I am not going to tell them to stop because of some higher morality.

My husband and I are looking for sex. Plain and simple. As long as the partner is clean, attractive, wears a condom and has a decent personality, what more can we ask for?

But again, that is only MY opinion...

LC

I dont know or really care what the official definition of "swinging" should be. However, neither my wife nor I would want to get involved with 2 people who just get together for sex. To me, that just seems odd...unless youre doing it for the reason of going to a swing club that only allows couples. (We dont attend clubs, so we'd be unlikely to meet people like this, i guess)

For us, the biggest part is what leads up to the sex. Our only experience has been with a couple that are already friends with us. They lead similar lives to ours, enjoy the same types of things...in other words, we relate to them and know they must have the same feelings as we do. That, for us, is what made the situation really sexy... to the point where we were comfortable enough to swap partners.

we fantasize often about 3somes...either with a guy or girl. If we ever made that a reality, i wouldnt expect the 3rd party to relate the same way to us. It would be more like the thrill of having sex with some horny single who just wants to get laid!...but i dont think that person would understand how it works between my wife and i...and i think maybe thats what you mean when you say that singles arent really swingers.

[BiloxiCouple]

This goes to point of a committed relationship.

What does it take to have a committed relationship?

Do I have to be married?

Or how long do we have to know each other if we are not married to be able to go out together and swing?

Does it have to be a heavy commitment or a light commitment?

Just some questions I came up with.

Our rules are not your rules. Our attitude is not your attitude. Everyone is different. Have fun.

[StacyCat]

Well, ive changed my description of myself to a "single bisexual polyamorus semi swinger." Ive always gone for more of the "friendship" model than the "lets fuck once and thats it."

that said, when I look with swingers, or attend a swingers club, I know that it will be mostly couples. And, as long as there is a lot of honesty and communication between the couple, I have no problem with it.

I personally would not "bring" someone to a club just to get in on couples only night. It is not fair to the other couples, and its not fair to me to have to babysit someone that im not involved with. Ive had several relationships that were open, but I wouldnt bring them to a swingers club. I am more happy to attend as a single female, and explain my "open relationships" or my poly family after I meet the new people.

Then again, I bring my whole "family" and we would take over most places :-) three couples, 3-6 singles throwin in for good measure, its fun.

[incommunicado]

Originally posted by LadyCleo
I found this post to be rather interesting. You feel cheated because there are people who found an easier route than you?

I, personally, could not care less. What other people choose to do is their own business. If they are "play partners", why should I care? If they are cheating, why should I care? I am not looking for someone to marry, I have that already. I am not looking for a committed long-term relationship, I have that too. Yeah, it sucks for the other person's spouse and I would never intentionally have sex with someone I knew to be married to harm that relationship, but if I found out that someone I was playing with in an on-premise club was married to someone that wasn't their play partner, I am not going to tell them to stop because of some higher morality.

My husband and I are looking for sex. Plain and simple. As long as the partner is clean, attractive, wears a condom and has a decent personality, what more can we ask for?

But again, that is only MY opinion...

LC

No, I feel cheated because somebody "broke the rules" and stepped into territory that is catagorically not theirs to step into. Single men and women are not supposed to buddy up for recreational swinger sex. Whether you are in it for just sex, or social relationships in and out of the bedroom, it is supposed to be about committed couples, married or dating, expanding their horizons, not two people that like to fuck, doubling up to go to swing clubs.

But, we are of a different mindset. My wife and I want to connect on more than just a physical level with our partners and we would (as you say you wouldn't) throw anyone out in mid act if we discovered they were cheating on someone (I am my brother's keeper).

Bottom line... singles, male and female are a necessary aspect of swinging as without them, we would not have "the threesome". But, unless a couple is in a committed relationship (emotionally exclusive, physically exclusive at least for a time and preferrably several years in length), they are not swingers, they are party crashers. Let them do their time in the singles bars and parties like the rest of us. Swinging is reserved for committed couples who have paid their dues in the single world already, to find the recreational sex they seek with other couples like them. All others should have to work for it just like most of us did.

[incommunicado]

Originally posted by Seymore
we fantasize often about 3somes...either with a guy or girl. If we ever made that a reality, i wouldnt expect the 3rd party to relate the same way to us. It would be more like the thrill of having sex with some horny single who just wants to get laid!...but i dont think that person would understand how it works between my wife and i...and i think maybe thats what you mean when you say that singles arent really swingers.

Both our 4-somes and 3-somes have been with people we knew long term and could go out with socially (before or after sex) and we wouldn't want it any other way. The thought of some horny single person who is just there for a hot time feels invasive.

[incommunicado]

Originally posted by BiloxiCouple
This goes to point of a committed relationship.

What does it take to have a committed relationship?

Do I have to be married?

Or how long do we have to know each other if we are not married to be able to go out together and swing?

Does it have to be a heavy commitment or a light commitment?

Just some questions I came up with.

Our rules are not your rules. Our attitude is not your attitude. Everyone is different. Have fun.

I would say anyone who has been together for several years in an emotionally exclusive and for at least a fair amount of time, a physically exclusive relationship can be considered committed to one another, marriage not withstanding.

My wife and I have been together for over 12 years and married for over 11 of them. Barring a handful swinging moments, we have been physically exclusive that whole time. If either of us said, "I don't want to swing anymore because..." the other would say "O.K. and we would go back to total excusivity without question. That's what I consider committed.

[natsbar]

Just for the record, I don't consider myself a swinger, but I plan to be some day. I was married, monogamous (spelling needs work), and it didn't work out for reasons not related to monogamy, but sometime in the aftermath, I was reading about swinging, and I really agreed about the whole separation of sex and emotion. Therefore, when looking for a mate, I look in swinger forums, so I don't try to have a committed relationship with somebody that I need to try to convince to be a swinger several years down the road. After meeting somebody, before the sex becomes same old same old, I want to go to a swingers' club and to get a taste of the future, if only just to meet some other couples in person and talk. If I know where things are going, am I really going to spoil your night if I tell you, "Jen (generic name) and I have been going out for several months."

[Elusive BiFem]

You brought up some interesting points, incommunicado, as did several others. Just reading through, I believe the gist of your post dealt more with non-committed couples vs. the absolute single male or female.

People's opinions on this probably vary based upon what they are looking for in swinging. As we've seen, some people are interested in swinging for the purely sexual experience ONLY, while others are more concerned with the development of a swinging relationship and would find it difficult to form a relationship with a non-committed couple. As always, this comes from my perspective. As a single, I'm way far more of the "relationship" type and really have no interest at all in the occasional sexual encounters. With uncommitted couples, at least those that don't have a significant history together, I just don't feel they have enough of a commitment to each other to allow me to participate comfortably in their relationship. Afterall, it takes an exceedingly strong relationship to comfortably permit sexual exploration with any degree of confidence that emotions that could be fatal to the relationship aren't going to develop. And somehow...someway...I believe that only those very strong couples can fully accept me to the degree that I need to be accepted. Otherwise, there really isn't anything in it for me.

On the other hand, there are many couples out there that have no interest in any type of relationship and I can easily see where non-committed couples would fit the bill for them perfectly. A night of sharing pleasures and then on to someone else. There is nothing wrong with that for those people, either. Different strokes...

But in spite of each side of the coin, I harbor no ill-will towards those much younger than I that have been able to come to this lifestyle at a much earlier age, and with a different attitude towards sex - or just life in general. I occasionally look back from the "golden years" where I now sit and wonder how much I would have enjoyed the lifestyle years back...when it was unheard of, at least by me. The days when I was young, and slim and attractive...and had more time and energy! Unfortunately, I was full of fears and inhibitions that would have prevented any sort of "non-committed" sexual play and especially with the same sex! Horrors of all horrors!!

Another thing...time spent together as a committed couple - married or not - is not an indicator of commitment. Look at divorce statistics for that answer. While you and your wife have been together for 12 years, there is no real guarantee you will be together for 13 or 14 years. Too many people...after 20 and 30 years of marriage find themselves suddenly without a relationship. Sad but true.

Anyway...interesting post, and yes, I think you are right in saying that this is an issue that many would like to leave vague because it is vague, not to mention that so many issues factor into it.
- EBF