Bordeline Personality woes(long)

[omneesx]

First a little background. I am the male half of a 21 year long relationship(married 16, open 15). We have had many wonderful experiences in the lifestyle and met some fantastic people. Last year, we got involved with a 24 year old female co-worker of mine who at the time was going through a rough situation coming out of a physically abusive relationship.

The first month of this relationship involved many intimate moments and her even staying over with us on weekends when able to find childcare for her 6 yr old. Throughout this time there was excessive drinking and evidence of drug use on her part which my wife and I excused as a young person doing what she can to cope with a rough situation. In no time with as much help as she would take from us she was back on her feet and dating again which we encouraged but still maintained our intimate association.

Things began to turn bad for us when our phone calls were ignored and our requests to spend time with her would go unanswered. When we did see her and make plans she would respond with excitement and enthusiasm but on the day of the event would not show or make an excuse. One night after 4am we both received a text on our phones from her saying she needed her space. My wife replied asking if that meant that they were not going to a concert they had planned to and got a phone call from our friend saying that wasn't what she meant. I found it very hard to be friendly with her at this point. Having only late night flings before meeting my wife in high school, I had never to this date "broken up" with anyone. Not only did I still have to work with her, but had to endure her responding to mutual friends as if she had not just dumped us including her present boyfriend who was also a co-worker.

After a month or so I tried to swallow my bruised pride and ego and continue to respond to her as a friend and explain to her what she had done and how it made me feel. The information that I was hurt by her came as a surprise since she believed I didn't need her. After a time, this boyfriend ended up getting the same kind of treatment from her as we received and went so far as to suggest my wife and I spending more time with her to get her back to the "happy" time that she was when he got together with her. We tried to manage this unusual request as best we could and during this time when we went way out of our comfort zone to be around her we got burned again by her inability to even notice we were around. (She excused this behavior later as a combination of drugs and 'distractions') At this point my wife was done and was able to emotionally cut off herself from being affected in any way by this girl since all our efforts were never really rewarded. I unfortunately am more stubborn.

After many rocky times since, it has been a year of emotional high and lows, mostly lows. Talks of suicide, more lovers latched on to then abandoned, giving up her child to her child's father, and recently losing her job. Throughout all of this my interaction has been just as lopsided as it was before, with me reaching out and her taking but never appreciating what was given.

A google of mental health disorders online came up with her entire history as a textbook case of Borderline Personality disorder. The worst possible mental illness a woman can have. My research has found that in order to help myself gain emotional distance from this girl, I had to directly address the things about our relationship that I didn't like. I did this last night after she invited us to dinner. At a quiet time outside her house I asked if it was her idea to see us. It was not.Her present boyfriend suggested it. I asked if she planned to seek professional mental health counseling. She is not. I asked if she planned to work on her alcohol and drug abuse. She is not. Basically telling me that she will continue as she is not taking any steps to improve her situation.

So here I am left with all these feeling for her and general concern that should not be given to her. I decided last night to not pursue any further contact with her and bring my focus back to my wife who has endured all this like a champ. Its hard. I'm stubborn. I think I've helped this girl. I think I could continue to do so. Everything she does tells me that she doesn't want or even feels she deserves it. So I'm left feeling the loss with the only gain being knowledge of a mental disorder that isn't 'curable'.

So I guess my question is does anyone have any experience they could share with me to help me get on with my(our) life. Your input is greatly appreciated.

[IvoryTowers]

Originally Posted by omneesx

Throughout this time there was excessive drinking and evidence of drug use on her part which my wife and I excused as a young person doing what she can to cope with a rough situation. In no time with as much help as she would take from us she was back on her feet and dating again which we encouraged but still maintained our intimate association. ....

We tried to manage this unusual request as best we could and during this time when we went way out of our comfort zone to be around her we got burned again by her inability to even notice we were around. (She excused this behavior later as a combination of drugs and 'distractions') ....

Talks of suicide, more lovers latched on to then abandoned, giving up her child to her child's father, and recently losing her job. Throughout all of this my interaction has been just as lopsided as it was before, with me reaching out and her taking but never appreciating what was given.

I asked if it was her idea to see us. It was not. Her present boyfriend suggested it. I asked if she planned to seek professional mental health counseling. She is not. I asked if she planned to work on her alcohol and drug abuse. She is not. Basically telling me that she will continue as she is not taking any steps to improve her situation.

I think I've helped this girl. I think I could continue to do so.

I don't want to be mean here, but how exactly have you helped this "girl"? She's still using drugs and alcohol, she's still emotionally unstable, and now there's talk of suicide and giving up her child (thank goodness, but still)? That's not better.

Second, and much more important, I think you're the problem here. You got involved with a coworker. You decided to get involved with someone who was messed up and even excused her drug use. You got involved with someone who is young enough to be your daughter. And you when she dumped you, instead of thinking "thank god I got out of that one with my sanity and marriage intact!" you continue to pursue her! You've googled somee medical websites and "diagnosed" her problem (and also decide it is "the worst a woman can have". Um...why?), decided it is untreatable but also decided you still want to help her. You've forced meetings that she doesn't want and now you come to us for advice.

Here's my advice. No matter what's really going on in this woman's life, you are contributing to the problem. If you truly want to help her, leave her alone. At best, you can make her dependent on you for stability, and at worst, you're going to turn into some weird stalker who can't stop meddling in this woman's life until you "fix" her. This is not a healthy situation and you need to get over the daddy complex, admit you have a weird savior-crush thing going on and ask your wife's forgiveness.

[slevin]

Some people seem to shun being happy. I think it stems from low self esteem and not feeling like they deserve to be happy and the result is that they seek out punishment. Drug use, alcohol abuse, abusive relationships, fucking up good jobs etc. They seek out people who treat them poorly and shun people who are nice to them.

In your case I'd put money on the fact that she is an attractive younger woman with a bit of a wild streak and you're enamoured with that. You look at her and think to yourself that you're not sure when you'll get another single woman like that involved in your sex life again. The result is you making a bunch of really shortsighted decisions that are justified with trying to help her. No way in hell would I excuse drug use, alcohol abuse and ignoring me. Someone is showing signs of mental issues, taking from me and never even staying in contact much less giving anything back? Those people are cut out of my life in a very short period of time.

You can't help people who don't want help. My wife had a friend who we both really liked (non-sexual friendship). It became obvious that she had some problems and we were more than happy to try and help her out if we could. She was good to us just as we were good to her. In very short order though it was obvious that for all her talk of wanting help and wanting to do something about the problems she was having (history of child abuse), she never actually took any action. She would talk and talk about wanting to do something, but when presented with the opportunity she wouldnt do it. That was the end of me trying to help her. Once we stopped paying attention to her issues she stopped coming around; she liked the attention and had no intention of actually trying to get over her history. I am glad I didn't waste years on her like you've done here!

Time to wake up and realize that this chick doesn't care about you, she isn't taking your help and it's time for you to move on. Ivory is totally right that you've become part of the problem.

[NotSorry]

A few miscellaneous thoughts...

- We are amateurs and should not attempt to diagnose mental disorders. Being in the situation amplifies that... there is no way for you to label/categorize her problems, even if you had a DSM4 handy.
- I don't think you can objectively rank mental health issues by severity.
- You can't help her. She can only be helped when she decides she needs help... and even then, you can't be the one who gives her that help.
- I had someone in my life throughout my teenage years who was eventually diagnosed as having borderline personality disorder. It was... unpleasant.
- From what you've described, I would say you are certainly better off without her in your life. She's probably better off without you guys, too.

Mr NotSorry

[LFM2]

From what I've read, she needs to seek mental health from a qualified, board certified psychiatrist. I've worked with people that have clinically been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and those people are some of the most difficult people to even get along with.

You and your wife should step away and let her get that help.

[Edison Carter]

Ed here-- I have to agree with 'NotSorry'. I had a dear woman friend and I thought I was helping. Such thoughts were really my ego and a contrivance and not a substitute for professional help. Once I accepted that I was becoming part of the problem and not part of her solution, I told her how to seek professional help and that I hoped she did so. Then I let her go.

[iapr]

Originally Posted by omneesx

So I guess my question is does anyone have any experience they could share with me to help me get on with my(our) life. Your input is greatly appreciated.

You posted this story and this question on a swinger website and not a mental health website. So here are my thoughts as a swinger and not a shrink.

Keep your emotional attachments and energies confined to your marriage and only fuck other people for fun and the second they get the slightest bit wacky on you or if they cause you the least amount of emotional distress cut the ties and don't look back.

It's exactly situations like these where i call myself a sexual swinger and an emotional monogamist.

[NCfuncouple98]

Originally Posted by iapr

You posted this story and this question on a swinger website and not a mental health website. So here are my thoughts as a swinger and not a shrink.

Keep your emotional attachments and energies confined to your marriage and only fuck other people for fun and the second they get the slightest bit wacky on you or if they cause you the least amount of emotional distress cut the ties and don't look back.

It's exactly situations like these where i call myself a sexual swinger and an emotional monogamist.

Absolutely. Cut ties and move on. She will need to work out her own issues, and you and your wife can focus on each other again.

[EVOSS]

Borderline personality is one of the most difficult situations to have to witness and be drawn into. I have had extensive experience with this. My experience comes from time to time babysitting a close friends daughter who is borderline. The hard thing is they are usually women with above average intelligence and can be equally charming as they can be terrors. Sucide is a very common end to these people, drug alchahol abuse and promiscuity go hand in hand. The mental health part of it is that they used to treat the drug abuse seperate from the mental illness and classified it as bi polar, now it is known that the drug abuse cannot bet treated as seperate ,hey are all part of the whole. The only thing that works when a borderline is ranting is validation of her situation. If you can, you should pull back this is a very heavy trip and responsibility you are dealing with and you will not be able to reach her. Just a bit of my experience with this first hand. Hope i did not offend any one with my story. Best of luck to you, your wife and this woman.

[BiloxiCouple]

Almost every sentence of what is written is an example of "what not to do".

Get professional help for all of ya'll. And take care of your family first.

[EVOSS]

In my post about experience in no way was i giving advice on how to treat this person. My experience comes from making sure someone was around to call 911 " just in case " when this person was in a downward spiral. The woman i was referencing was and still is under the care of several physicians etc. i was given crash course in how to cope with her if and when she turned her agression toward me. Many things have been explored to try to help her cope. This was not meant to be a primer just a case in question and how difficult it is. Of course professional help is needed none would ever argue that. I have had experience with this kind of disorder input was asked and i gave my experience. So before the slam of every sentence is wrong perhaps the message should be read with a little more consideration of where it was coming from.
Best to all.
E

[BiloxiCouple]

In case there was any misunderstanding on my previous thread, it was directed at the original poster - omneesx.

Originally Posted by BiloxiCouple

Almost every sentence of what is written is an example of "what not to do".

Get professional help for all of ya'll. And take care of your family first.

omneesx wrote a primer on what not to do in this situation. My original advice as quoted still stands.

[EVOSS]

Point taken my misunderstanding. Sorry for the confusion.

best to you,
E

[omneesx]

Thank you all for your replies.
She and my wife and I agreed months ago that her situation is very similar to what a person with Borderline Personality goes through. It was not however diagnosed professionally since she refuses to do so. She had previously been involuntarily admitted years ago and managed to charm her way out(highly intelligent and charming are also common traits of borderlines). She says any attempt to do so today would cause her to simply "play a role" and not present an honest image of herself as someone depressed and suicidal to anyone she was speaking to. A book called "Stop walking on Eggshells" by Paul T. Mason was used by my wife and I as a guide and only a guide to gain emotional stability for ourselves.
One of the biggest ways we helped her was to be there for her while she got out of a physically abusive two year relationship and get a place of her own. In retrospect, I guess once that was done, so were we.
Before meeting her, we had never heard of Borderline Personality Disorder or had any experience dealing with someone with it. We find it the worse mental problem a woman can have because 9 out of 10 recorded cases ends in suicide, which she talks about often.
Move on you say? Duh! I got that! :P
My request was for a few "how to's" on "Moving on." As it stands, this is the first "break up" I have ever gone through. After reading my post here, a friend suggested things that to me seemed juvenile like deleting phone numbers and pictures. Surprising to me was that they actually help. Another one she suggested that struck me was that when people ask me about her or how she's doing my reply should be "I don't associate with her anymore," instead of my usual "She hasn't talked to me." A lot more powerful way of saying the same thing.
More tips like these are what I was after.

[realcplub2]

OK, TOUGH LOVE TIME...

You specifically are enabling this woman to continue with the negative behavior, and despite how many times you ask, beg, or just flat out try to talk these problems out, she isnt going to change a molecule of her attitude or behavior until She sees for herself that she has to..

Your wife has the right idea, and really listen to her on this.. the person this woman WAS when she first met you, isnt WHO she is now.. you said yourself she was in a abusive relationship and the massive changes the three of you went thru inthe first month.. was the golden time..

Since you have read up on this issue I am sure you also saw that these people will, use sex to gain favor, or influence others.. The time you spent in the first month was her using the tools she had to further that with you both, then when she had her boyfriend she didnt need to do that anymore..

The other issue that you arent addressing and again a common trait among those with this disorder.. AHEM, was it a real challenge to get her to join you both? I am sorry to say this, but like the old shampoo commercials you have now slept with everyone that she slept with.. and as is part of this personality issue, will at the ease of dropping a hat, jump into bed.. that could be people that you would say "Oh hell no" to..

Her other behavior, the threats of suicide and whatever else.. If she played those cards while being evaluated, they wouldnt let her go.. Its a common and in no way different than a child holding its breath til they get thier way.. If you dont do this or that.. I will, I swear I will..
a cry for help, No.. a attempt to manipulate you further.. Yes

The best advice I can offer you is to listen to your wife, and cut the ties with this person, its going to lead to more heart ache and trouble than its really worth.