Why do so many people consider the MENTION of the word swinging to be obscene?

[Mulder]

I posted my experience with this site at the forum where I spend most of my time www.allnurses.com (since my wife and I are both nursing students in our 30's who decided to make a career change a few years back). I was AMAZED when they immediately yanked the post and told me that it was obscene to mention the topic. On that board we have dealt vigorously with a variety of topics ranging from assited suicide to sexually "assisting" disabled patients and whether or not is was an appropriate nursing intervention. I just don't get it. I am a conservative, pro-life, Republican (granted with strong Libertarian leanings and who doesn't attend church) and don't find anything on this site to rise to that level. On the other hand the allnurses is about 90% liberal (as you will find most nurses tend to be) and they are offended. I really just don't get it.

[Elusive BiFem]

I'm a nurse and I'm conservative - part of the 10%, I guess.

I'm familiar with allnurses.com. Right off the bat, it is a "professional" message board, while this board is primarily sexually oriented. Why would you post anything about a sexually oriented alternative lifestyle board on a professional board?

Sexuality is very much a part of a disabled persons life, but as professionals, we assist them through education, suggestions for alternatives to the more traditional ways of expressing sexuality, etc. We don't assist them by participation in the sexual act. Nursing involves all aspects of a person - physical, emotional, social. Again, this board is for the primary purpose of sharing ideas and communicating about alternative sexual expressions.

There is no correlation between the two boards. As is done with so many things in life...they are kept separate. Just like I would not go to a board on...motorcycles....and post somethig on...pets.

I'm a member here - a longtime member. But I, too, would have found a post about this board on allnurses.com highly offensive because when I go to that message board, I fully anticipate finding healthcare related topics.

Why would you even do that? - EBF

[Mulder]

Because my wife and I have discussed what if ANY professional implications that "swinging" might have upon our future career. My question involved "how common" this was among other nurses out there. Note that even at my school of nursing that there are several sexuality journals (professional of course) avaiable at our library AND through our database (and within these journals the issue of swinging is a topic addressed).

Also, if you have participated in www.allnurses.com for any length of time then you have to realize the broad range of topics discussed there. I was trying to look at this from a "health care" perspective. Perhaps, it's because I look at most issues from a detached perspective that I can't understand why this is not a valid issue for discussion there. To me this is a far less controversial subject than say abortion (which has often been discussed there).

[Elusive BiFem]

I don't recall saying that this is not a valid issue for discussion. I said that I don't understand why you would post your "experience with this site" on a professional message board. And having spent approximately 25 years in nursing...I've been around allnurses.com a long time. Yes, a wide variety of topics...healthcare related. Possibly, had you displayed an interest in the subject of alternative aspects of sexuality as they relate to healthcare needs, your post would not have been pulled as "obscene." And yeah...like all these other nurses are going to admit, on their professional board, they are involved in swinging. Try doing a search on discretion on this board and see what you come up with. Nurses are not unlike the average person that chooses to maintain a certain element of discretion.

You say you are trying to look at this from a healthcare perspective, yet you are asking how this lifestyle will effect you professionally. I don't get it. And yes...as you said, there are sexuality journals available. I took courses in human sexuality in school...all instructed in a professional manner with regard to the common aspects of assisting patients. Never was there mention of the students/nurses sexuality. Two separate things.

I didn't see your post on that board, but seeing that it is a board where a wide variety of topics are discussed openly, I wonder what you said there that would cause the admin to classify it as "obscene." Apparently there were objections.

- EBF

[NewTemptations]

This is sort of a question I have wondered about for awhile...

Keep in mind, I have no idea about the one website you specifically brought up as i am not in any way associated in the medical field..... but....

I have noticed that on both AOL and Yahoo (two very popular online services that offer msg boards, chat rooms, instant messanger) They both have Chat rooms and Message board categories (public, company created topics, not member created) dealing with some alternative lifestyles, just not the swinging lifestyle. On both places you can find chat rooms and message boards for Gays, Lesbians, Transexuals, Singles with Herpes (and other specific std's), BDSM etc. I have gotten the impression more than once when looking thru all these other categories that the swinging population out there is somehow being shunned by these companies and have often wondered why.

Laura

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by Mulder
... On that board we have dealt vigorously with a variety of topics ranging from assited suicide to sexually "assisting" disabled patients and whether or not is was an appropriate nursing intervention.

I'm really confused here by your posting. Suicide has been manualy assisted, in the effect that they are given the means to end their life. That's a given. However I've never seen or been privy to a nurse "assisting" with sexual gratification other than in the fact of educating them on how to live their lives in the best way possible after a catastophic injury, which yes, includes sex. But it also includes walking, talking, to name a couple. The education (in my experience) does not include being the person to assist them manually in sexual gratification.

I have to side with EBF on this. I can't understand why you would ask how common swinging is to other nurses, on a board that is devoted to the healthcare industry. It just seems so far off base.

You would have been better off coming here and asking:

"How many of ya'll are nurses and what do you think about swinging in the modern world? Do you or don't you?"

This is a swingers board and those kind of questions are perfectly acceptable.

Then I was thinking, how would YOU react if I came to your nursing board and asked "Hey! How many of you have long haired dogs? Does it create extra work in housekeeping? Cause allergies? Can I see a show of hands for long-haired dog owners? "

What place would the above have on a nursing board?

Could you please explain why you felt that question (of a personal nature) would be of benefit to the healthcare industry?

[Mulder]

All kinds of questions about almost any topic are asked at www.allnurses.com . They usually (but by no means always) have a healthcare angle. My question was simple: "My wife and I have discussed Swinging, but we have concerns about potential ramifications in our healthcare careers. How many other nurses out there swing." It was pulled by Gwenith after about two minutes!

I always post my sincere thougthts on issues. This is the first board besides Allnurses that I've ever visited (I did a search for other Vbullitin style boards since I like the format). As to the questions about assisted suicide and sexually assisting the disabled these are threads that have drawn thousands of views and hundreds of replies at that forum. In addition, there have been dozens of posts about "gays in nursings" ect. Why is this alternative lifestyle any less deserving of main stream discussion? I asked the question there because I wanted a "nursing" perspective. Perhaps, I'm in the minority in beliving that all areas of human endeavor can be discussed in an non obscene, non offensive manner.

[Elusive BiFem]

Right or wrong, you are definitely in the minority in believing that all areas of human endeavor can be discussed in a non-obscene, non-offensive manner. Also, I find your choice of the word "endeavor" interesting as I believe we are speaking of "sexuality." Alternative lifestyle. Key phrase. People have different views, even here, as to whether this lifestyle should be considered alternative or mainstream. Frankly, in our lifetimes, I don't think we will ever see swinging as mainstream.

But I'm still interested....why would you want a "nursing perspective" regarding your entry into the lifestyle? Is it your intention to be as open about this lifestyle choice as it would be to...say....My wife and I enjoy going to movies...out to dinner...those mundane things of life? Beyond that, what do you see different about a "nursing perspective?" As a rule, nurses are about as "mainstream" as they come and possibly even more so, as they have been instilled, in some respects, with a greater sense of traditional values and mores than many other professional groups.

OK...So I can buy into your thing about professional ramifications, but really, what type of response did you anticipate?

How many other nurses out there swing?

Since you yourself made the observation it is an "alternative" lifestyle and used the words "non-offensive" and "non-obscene," did you really expect a bunch of people on a professional board to come forward with, "Me!, Me!"? If you were looking at swinging from a healthcare angle and had posted something about providing healthcare to swingers with a leaning towards personal values, perhaps it would have been accepted. (I'm thinking of our "right" to refuse to participate in procedures such as abortion.)

As for discussion about gays in nursing, again, I don't understand the correlation you are attempting to make. Yes, there has been some negativity about gays...just like there was initially about men in nursing. There will always be those select groups that are anti-anything other than what they are. The problem is...nursing is such an intensely "personal" profession - more so than any other - even medicine. As such, one has to be exceedingly cautious. There is a fine line between the discussion of sexuality with a patient and that same discussion with a non-patient. The two need to remain separate for many reasons.

And finally...one more question for you. You said

This is the first board besides Allnurses that I've ever visited (I did a search for other Vbullitin style boards since I like the format).

That makes me wonder...is your interest in swinging based upon simply the discovery of this board or was it an interest you had before the discovery of this board with this particular type of format?

- EBF

[Mulder]

1. It is my feeling that I have a certain degree of anonimity at Allnurses. com.

2. I raise questions that I find to be fascinating. I don't use any terms that would get me finded by the FCC if said over the air waves.

3. To an extent I think this is a male/female thing. Consider that I have recently (at the same time I started visiting this site) also gone to another Vbullitin site called www.straightdope.com . That site seems mainly to be visited by type "A", scientifically orientated males. One question will have to do with Quantum mechanics or arcane tax loopholes. The next will concern the caloric count of male semen or whether or not it could be fried like an egg white. The only "offense" taken is when someone violates the rules of logic in responding to someone elses argument (although the language is not obscene).

4. As to whether or not I would publically display our private sexual habits at work, no way. I don't discuss ANYTHING personal at work (including where we ate dinner last night). However, my wife often comes home and tells me how her nursing classmates were describing their great "anally orientated sexual experiences" from the night before or some other such escapades much to her embarassment. I have never discussed this sort of thing with a male (or female) friend/classmate at work or school.

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by Mulder
My question was simple: "My wife and I have discussed Swinging, but we have concerns about potential ramifications in our healthcare careers. How many other nurses out there swing."

Thanks for coming back and answering some of these questions.

My take...what may have caused your posting to be removed was the asking of "How many other nurses out there swing?" That seems to ask people to come forward and be counted as swingers. Have other questions been asked for a show of hands as to if they are gay, or if they are into BDSM? I've never been to this other site, and frankly I wouldn't because the level of discussion would be way over my head. I've plenty of health care professionals that I can contact when I need things put into Mrs. O's terminology. Challenging as it is for them, they always succeed. I'd be laughed off a health care site in the wag of a dogs tail.

IMO, a more appropriate question (considering the basis of the site) would have been something along the lines of " My wife and I have discussed Swinging but we have concerns about potential ramifications in our healthcare careers. Has anyone ever experienced this or known/heard of any who have experienced any ramifications? If so, what do we need to be aware of? How could this affect us in the future if we choose to induldge in this alternative lifestyle?"

That IMO would be some pretty valid questions that would in essence pertain to nursing in a non-direct way. However I don't know what the guidelines are for the site. I generally tend to think of sites that are specifically geared towards a certain aspect of life, try to adhere to that. Swinging is different as it doesn't involve a shared profession, it involves a shared thinking of ideas open to the alternatives. Pretty much making any topic open for discussion. Such as the one that you asked on allnurses.com

Did any of that make sense? See why I don't go to the professional sites.

Mrs. O

[Mulder]

I think it comes down to the moderator who is in charge at the time. IF, you care to read my old posts at www.allnurses.com you may do so they are under Roland, and a few under Love767 (which my wife also uses, I actually thought I had been banned as Roland, but it just turned out that I was using a small r!). It is true that I try to be thought provoking about subjects that I find of interest, but I go out of my way never to denigrate people personally. I think your post would have been better, and in retrospect represents the approach I should have taken. What I hate more than anything is "group think" or pack mentality. Therefore, I strive to get others (and myself) to look at issues from perspectives they may not have considered. Unfortunately, my crusade against "group think" sometimes causes me to perhaps go out of my way to see, and argue for divergent opinions even when perhaps it's not warranted by the facts. At the end of the day I believe people should be able to vigorously disagree about issues, but still remain pleasant and polite.

[Elusive BiFem]

I agree with you on the "group think" thing, but you know as well as I do that when you bring forth an issue as controversial as swinging, you are going to have the roof cave in on you. You have to ..........slide it in............for the very reasons you mention. The "group think" aspects. No matter the subject, if it is outside what is considered the norm, you are going to be met with negatives before people will even stop to think through the subject. That's nothing more than human nature. Few like change.
As for healthcare and alternative lifestyles, I can see a need for that. Here on this board, we frequently have people wondering how and what to tell their doctors. I saw a site once that listed "alternative lifestyle friendly" HCP's. Interesting I thought. And it also told me that there just might be more involved in alternative lifestyles than one might imagine. Just something to think about as you pursue your goals.

Now what did you mean by the comment - "a male-female thing?"

- EBF

[Mulder]

I think that males may be less inclined to take offense at this type of subject matter than females. I base that opinion in part on the fact that the reaction at allnurses (mostly female) is often immediate, and extremely negative over controversial remarks (although one of the threads I posted several years ago about proposed CRNA competition drew immense negative response from male CRNA's, Kevin in particular, I think he felt that the concept brought the status of the profession down).

On the other hand at the other board which is primarily male dominated (maybe ninty percent or so) few topics bring that sort of reaction. Instead, they tend to calmly (and in many cases completely) demonstrate why your position is not correct (or agree or modify or joke about the original proposition) . Neither board is considered "pornographic", but you would get completely different reactions in some cases.

Consider the thread entitled "My Marriage IS Over" at the Austrialian section of the allnurses. Basically, a lady says that she wants to leave her husband because she is bored (they dont' even have sex). I wanted (in fact I did an then retracted) Swinging as one possible intervention (along with counseling). I really think it might help (then again it might not) in their situation. However, I was not able to do so because of my experience in the General Discussion area. On the other hand there IS precedence for extremely sexual topics being addressed at the site, it just seems to be hit or miss as to whether or not it will be tolerated.

[NightGoddess]

Mulder, It's possible you might have crossed the line as far as the person who moderates allnurses.com is concerned.
As in all other human situations, sometimes we have to accept another's subjective decision, whether we agree or not.

In a professional setting, I wouldn't volunteer anything that indicated I was a swinger.
You didn't say you were thinking about this, but it begs the question.
You also mention you are a nursing student, as is your wife, so I'm giving you my take on it:
It's too personal, and it could make others uncomfortable.
It's not the first thing I'd really want to know about you in a work setting.
I'd rather get to know you as a colleague and see how you are in the working milieu.
Later....perhaps, much much later....I might want to know, but perhaps....not.

Would you be sharing that information for your benefit, or someone else's?
Hospitals are notorious gossip-mills. Incredible. We protect client's privacy, but let on that anyone's marriage is over, or whatever, and it's all over the place.
Anything you disclose to another person is fair game, and could be used in ways you might regret. It's hard to 'take back' information once you've let this out.
Sorry if this is a dissapointment, but that's my experience and opinion.

[Vjklander]

I think there is a large proportion of people in general who enjoy taking offense. At anything, doesna matter. It gives them the aura of moral superiority. After all, the offensor is bad, wrong, mean and evil. While the offensee is good, right, kind and nice. And the victim of the aforementioned offensor. I deal with it by having a verra well developed sense of benign amusement.