Fair or selfish?

[swvacouplelookn]

This is a bit of a heavy post for our first post. I'm the male half of a very happily married couple who's been in the lifestyle for a year or so. We've recently begun discussing separate play, and we're both good with each other playing separately in theory. In fact, we're both really excited about the possibilities (not only our own, but each other's as well).

That being said, we've run into a bit of a wall here. I don't want to skew public opinion in any manner by painting this toward my side or hers, so I'm going to try to present both sides as equally as possible.

We haven't nailed down all the ground rules, however the mrs. has found a playdate whom we both like and have played with in a couples setting in the past. I really like this guy. He's respectful, considerate and clicks well with my wife. So, I've got no reason whatsoever to not want this for her. In fact, to this point I've spent 3 to 4 times as much time fantasizing about her playing with him than actually myself with another woman! Mrs. SWVA is excited about him, and they have even talked about a possible meeting this week.

Now to the conflict. We haven't totally ironed out things as we never really thought our minds would progress to actually doing this quite yet. Her main requirement was that she wanted to know and like the woman I would be playing with. That is totally understandable. I agreed that I would prefer this be the situation with any of her playdates as well. Basically I have no other rules of my own to interject except for making sure we are not taking too much quality time from each other or our kids for this sort of thing.

Recently I met a woman who "perked" my interest. In fact, I would have to say I was for the first time really excited to explore a possible opportunity. I wanted to talk to her a bit to see if her situation was good and if she had any interest. When I approached my wife about her, I was taken back a bit by her reaction. She told me that she wasn't comfortable with the fact that this woman was a local and that she probably wasn't in the lifestyle. Now I knew these were two preferences of my wife's, but we hadn't laid them out as being mandatory requirements. Either way, I was hoping to at least see some excitement in my wife's reaction even if the answer were to be "no." There was none. In her defense, she wasn't really in the "swinging" mood at the time I brought it up. But, still I know I would have been excited for her regardless. I simply told her it was okay and that it was no big deal.

Well, I thought about it and thought about it. It became a big deal to me...more so as time passed throughout the day after. I feel like I am being selfish for feeling this way, but my previous excitement for her to be playing with this other guy is now diminished to the point I don't want her to do it unless I feel like I can get equal consideration from her. I told her I didn't think it was fair and that I felt like she just wasn't ready for this (for me to do it anyway). She said she has to be comfortable with the situation first, which I would expect anyway. But, her requirements of #1) the lady not being local, #2) her being involved in the lifestyle already and #3) having to also meet my wife and get her approval are almost impossible for me to conceive being even remotely feasible! If she has to meet her (which I agreed should happen) AND she is not local, there will be very few opportunities to find possible playdates for me. Factor in the fact that she has to already be in the lifestyle and I feel like I'm a lame duck from the start. While other men may be comfortable letting their wives play without the same opportunities allowed to them, I am simply not. I love my wife dearly, and she is a wonderful woman. She is very fair minded, and I don't want her to "cave in" if her heart is not there. But, I have too much self respect to just lie down and say, "whatever makes you happy, honey...it's okay" when I know it's NOT okay with me.

So, this is my question (and please pardon the very lengthy post): am I just being selfish in thinking her requirements are too strict for my taste and wanting to nix the whole idea of playing separately?

Thank you in advance for your insight, opinions and advice for us.

[PB&J]

Holy. I'm almost the opposite side of this situation of yours. Let me tell you my story. My husband and I have been in the lifestyle for a year and a half, and we've had our fun. Recently we played a few times with a couple where he and I really clicked, and her and my husband, not so much. (age difference, maybe some other issues too). Anyway, for the first time I seriously wanted separate play. As did the playmate. I broached the topic with my husband, and his first reaction was, okay, if I get to play with her. Which was disappointing, because I knew that that wasn't going to happen. However, he did after a few chats give me permission to play, and I did, and wow, I so appreciate him giving me that gift, and agreeing that it can happen again, as well. (because it was seriously hot)

This despite the fact that he to date hasn't met up with a woman with whom it was going to work for him. This is not necessarily a tit-for-tat situation. For one thing, there appear to be a lot more men available to play than women. Perhaps you have noticed that in your time in the lifestyle. I know we have. There have been several other men who have offered to play alone with me or in an MFM, but no women making a similar offer to him or us.

Now, my new friend meets all of the criteria that your wife is insisting on: in lifestyle, lives an hour and a quarter away, and had met (and played) with us. Also his gf knew and was ok with it. Neither my husband or me would have been comfortable with it otherwise. I would have the same criteria for a woman as your wife. I would have been very disappointed if my husband had decided that I would simply have to wait until he could get the same thing. I would not have gone behind his back, and would have gotten over it, but he had the generosity of spirit to let me proceed with my adventure (and it got him pretty hot too, I must say)

This is not a solution to your problem, it's just my point of view coming from a very similar situation.

Statistically, you're right -- the deck is stacked against you. Even if you imposed the same requirements (non local, in the LS, blessed by you) upon your spouse, she would still have a better change of connecting because she's female and because there are more men available.

So of course, you talked to your spouse about your poor prospects, and your great disappointment in the possibility of you ever hooking up. -- What did she say?



There's almost always a small amount of jealousy to deal with, even if it's envy of your partner's successful situation (as opposed to direct jealousy of her playmate).

If it's small, then you can deal with it, and your compersion for your spouse will far outweigh your emotional upheaval.

If it's not small and you stay disappointed, then the general rules of experience require her to give up her solo play to keep you from trauma.

("If someone's not happy, play stops". "Don't take one for the team". Go with the slowest". Words of advice heard over and over again from the wise people here.)

[swvacouplelookn]

Thanks for your reply! That is awesome that your husband can be so giving. On many levels, I am the same way with my wife. It's not really a tit-for-tat thing in my mind. I just want this to be something fun for both of us. If the rules (which of course apply to both of us) are too restricting for any opportunities for me (and you are right there are more men willing to play separately than women out there, which is why I like to have a more broad range of possibilities for both of us than she will accept) then there's really no real chance of anything happening for me. When I first mentioned the possibility of someone in particular for me, this is when the "conflict" came in for me.

While I do take pleasure in her own pleasure, I just don't want to simply ignore the fact that maybe I want to do this also. And, if we're BOTH not having fun on some level then I just have the disposition that maybe separate play is not for us. But, we're still talking about it. Please keep the comments coming.

[slevin]

I won't comment on whether you should feel that way or not, but it's pretty unlikely that you will find a woman in the lifestyle at all, unless she is a part of a couple who wants to play separately. A single woman is only going to be someone you're probably going to find outside the lifestyle.

[swvacouplelookn]

Originally Posted by rdy46227

Statistically, you're right -- the deck is stacked against you. Even if you imposed the same requirements (non local, in the LS, blessed by you) upon your spouse, she would still have a better change of connecting because she's female and because there are more men available.

So of course, you talked to your spouse about your poor prospects, and your great disappointment in the possibility of you ever hooking up. -- What did she say?



There's almost always a small amount of jealousy to deal with, even if it's envy of your partner's successful situation (as opposed to direct jealousy of her playmate).

If it's small, then you can deal with it, and your compersion for your spouse will far outweigh your emotional upheaval.

If it's not small and you stay disappointed, then the general rules of experience require her to give up her solo play to keep you from trauma.

("If someone's not happy, play stops". "Don't take one for the team". Go with the slowest". Words of advice heard over and over again from the wise people here.)

In all honesty, I know she will have more opportunities than I will have. And, that's totally cool with me. I just want to know I have the chance to play if I want. That's really all it is for me. If I feel like I have options out there I might want, then I'm not so concerned about playtime being equal or anywhere close to equal for that matter. It's honestly that simple as far as I'm concerned. I know she wants me to have a good time with all of this too, but she's just not comfortable with a pool of potential playmates so large and so close to home...and I do respect that totally even if I don't agree with it.

[swvacouplelookn]

Originally Posted by slevin

I won't comment on whether you should feel that way or not, but it's pretty unlikely that you will find a woman in the lifestyle at all, unless she is a part of a couple who wants to play separately. A single woman is only going to be someone you're probably going to find outside the lifestyle.

While not necessarily true in all cases, I feel the same way you do about it. For the most part the only way I'm going to find a single woman I would want to play with (and I am picky LOL) is to find one NOT in the lifestyle.

[sereneiders]

Yu're right, the situation doesn't look fair. In the other hand, since your wife was already part of the lifestyle, her insight may make her honestly believe you have way more chances that the ones you see. But it's her insight, and you're deprived from it. Then again, you're right.

Such a lengthy post (and I have no right to complein about posts lenght) and, moreover, what you said of how much time you've spent thinking and thinking, seems to be a symptom for a lack of communication. up to me, you should be inviting your wife to read your post and ask her to answer it.

If she's so experienced in the lifestyle, then she should understand the importance of the communcation. Then again, we trend to believe other people are in the same page than us more often that not, and she may be giving for granted some common grounds with you, that you may lack without her knowledge.

The worst for you is to fill the voids in your thoughts with your fantasies and a set of prejudices comming after the lack of experience, because is very likely that you'll end up filling it with your demons and turn the whole thing into a nightmare for you. So, ask her to fill those voids.

[PB&J]

Well, don't give up entirely on the woman in the lifestyle idea... within the last couple of months, at least me and another woman lifestyle friend of mine have both started playing separately upon occasion. We're out there, and at least you won't have trouble with women in the lifestyle wrapping their head around the whole playing with permission concept- there's a whole thread somewhere about the misunderstandings that can arise when playing with a vanilla.

[swvacouplelookn]

Originally Posted by sereneiders

Yu're right, the situation doesn't look fair. In the other hand, since your wife was already part of the lifestyle, her insight may make her honestly believe you have way more chances that the ones you see. But it's her insight, and you're deprived from it. Then again, you're right.

Such a lengthy post (and I have no right to complein about posts lenght) and, moreover, what you said of how much time you've spent thinking and thinking, seems to be a symptom for a lack of communication. up to me, you should be inviting your wife to read your post and ask her to answer it.

If she's so experienced in the lifestyle, then she should understand the importance of the communcation. Then again, we trend to believe other people are in the same page than us more often that not, and she may be giving for granted some common grounds with you, that you may lack without her knowledge.

The worst for you is to fill the voids in your thoughts with your fantasies and a set of prejudices comming after the lack of experience, because is very likely that you'll end up filling it with your demons and turn the whole thing into a nightmare for you. So, ask her to fill those voids.

We've both been part of this lifestyle the same amount of time. So, we both have a good understanding of her reasons for choosing these paramaters. Up until now we've only played together, and this is still what we both prefer. Communication has actually been pretty good between us on this matter. We both wanted to post this just to see what others might have to say about it. Thank you for your advice.

[swvacouplelookn]

Originally Posted by PB&J

Well, don't give up entirely on the woman in the lifestyle idea... within the last couple of months, at least me and another woman lifestyle friend of mine have both started playing separately upon occasion. We're out there, and at least you won't have trouble with women in the lifestyle wrapping their head around the whole playing with permission concept- there's a whole thread somewhere about the misunderstandings that can arise when playing with a vanilla.

No, I haven't "given up" on the possibility of a woman in the lifestyle necessarily. I also haven't given up on the possibility of finding someone who's not local. I'm not so much into doing a lot of driving, though. I actually prefer locals because of the fact that I wouldn't have to put so much time into driving and planning, etc., which would take more time away from me and my wife. Really I just want to have all of my available options, that's all.

I forgot to clarify one thing in my previous reply to you. There is a very big difference between our situation and the one with you and your hubby. It's not that I would make her wait until I found someone to fool around with. It's not that at all. We are, however, waiting until we can agree upon the rules/parameters of this thing. I don't feel so comfortable doing it unless it's going to be something we're both happy with.

The reality remains that she might never be comfortable with my needs regarding this just the same as I am not in agreement with hers. If that ends up being the case, then we will need to play together or not at all.

I really appreciate your insight on this.

[The Fuse]

Have you talked to your wife about why she is not comfortable with a local woman? That raises a bit of a red flag to me, because it seems like she might consider a local playmate a threat. If she feels insecure about the strength of your bond as a couple at all, then I'd be willing to bet separate play for you will not be something she is okay with at all. Any insecurity she has doesn't have to mean there's anything wrong with your relationship -- please don't think that's what I mean. But if she's okay with a long-distance playmate and not a local one, there is a reason.

My husband and I evolved from a "together only" couple, into a separate room-comfortable couple, into a couple who allows each other to play separately on occasion. But those occasions have almost always been with one half of a couple we already had a relationship with. Have you two thought about trying for that kind of arrangement? She might feel less threatened by that. My own feelings are that I am completely comfortable with Mr. Fuse playing with a woman separately if she is in a committed relationship or is married. A single woman... I would have to spend some time with her to make sure she is not looking for a man to be her primary. And the chances of that requirement resulting in playtime for Mr. Fuse would be very small, as you know. Sorry, but men and women are different. Some single women are not looking for a boyfriend, but most would like to have one-- and so would I, if I were single. So I don't see a reason to go looking for trouble. We play pretty fair, too. I can only recall one time (other than house parties) when I played with one half of a couple and he wasn't interested in the other half. And that only happened after three years in the lifestyle.

About fair vs. selfish... as others have said, it's all about what you're both comfortable with. If your areas of comfort don't overlap, it's unlikely that anything will happen. This can be true (and very frustrating) even if lots of other factors are positive. There are two other threads right now where my opinion is that comfort areas simply don't overlap -- one couple looking for a single woman but one or both of them aren't comfortable doing things that would increase their chances, and one couple who tried to get another couple to play separately, when it sounds like the target couple were more of a group-play kind of couple. It boils down to comfort levels with particular things (pictures, singles, locals, separate play) just not overlapping enough to make success likely.

I'm sure this is not exactly a sunny take on your situation. But things can change as time goes on. People's comfort zones tend to expand over time. And you two are doing pretty well, it sounds like -- swinging in "together" situations. It may just call for enjoying what you are both comfortable with and not pushing too hard for more.

[swvacouplelookn]

The Fuse, I appreciate your reply as well. She has told me that if I were with a local woman there would be more opportunities for me and this woman to play and she feels it may be too tempting for this other woman to fall for me. That is also why she feels more comfortable with someone in the lifestyle. I told her that regardless of the situation (lifestyle or not) people DO sometimes get infatuated with their playmates. That in itself is not so much the problem as how it's handled in my opinion. I have the responsibility of making sure my playmates do not let it get out of hand. I can't leave that responsibility to my playmate, I have to take it for myself...which is also what my wife would do with her playmates.

The man she wants to play with separately is from a couple we met and played with at a party recently. My wife and this man hit it off very well, but the other wife and I really didn't get into each other all that much. So, this is a big part of the reason we discussed separate play in the first place. In fact, I tend to be a bit picky about women (hell, I'm married to the most beautiful woman in the world, so why wouldn't I be? LOL), so this sometimes makes it difficult to find couples we're both attracted to.

I tend to agree that we'll just need to wait things out to see if her comfort level evolves into mine (or vice versa). In the meantime I offered to participate in a MFM with her and this guy to try to help things along for her!

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by swvacouplelookn

For the most part the only way I'm going to find a single woman I would want to play with (and I am picky LOL) is to find one NOT in the lifestyle.

Originally Posted by swvacouplelookn

The Fuse, I appreciate your reply as well. She has told me that if I were with a local woman there would be more opportunities for me and this woman to play and she feels it may be too tempting for this other woman to fall for me. That is also why she feels more comfortable with someone in the lifestyle.

Catch-22. What you think is likely/possible and what your wife is willing to accept do not agree.

As you know, your wife's feelings on this are perfectly legitimate. A person in the lifestyle knows what the score is; they understand it is about sex, and not emotions. A person who does not have lifestyle experience is considerably more likely to have emotional effects.

Look back at yourselves from two years ago. Compare to yourselves now. Your experiences in swinging make it considerably easier for you to detach your emotions. A non-lifestyle person does not have this benefit, and will have more difficulty (on average) in making this work.

While I don't really agree with the prohibition on local women, I can understand it. I think this may fade in time. I do agree with your wife on the prohibition on non-lifestylers.

Originally Posted by swvacouplelookn

I have the responsibility of making sure my playmates do not let it get out of hand. I can't leave that responsibility to my playmate, I have to take it for myself...which is also what my wife would do with her playmates.

Umm, you have very limited responsibility for your playmates getting things out of hand. Your responsibility is recognizing it when it is starting to happen, and ending it right then and there. That's it. You can't control the thoughts and emotions of another person. You can control your reaction to it.

Originally Posted by swvacouplelookn

The man she wants to play with separately is from a couple we met and played with at a party recently. My wife and this man hit it off very well, but the other wife and I really didn't get into each other all that much. So, this is a big part of the reason we discussed separate play in the first place.

This isn't a bad scenario at all, but I'd suggest you continue to approach other couples until you find a couple where the attraction is all around. That will make this situation workable, I think. I doubt you're going to find single women (or married women willing to play solo with permission) easily. Finding other couples interested in playing solo all the way around is far more likely.

I know it's disappointing. Your wife has found a guy she really clicks with and (I assume) has had great sex with. I'm sure she wants it to continue. So would I (husband here). My wife recently found a single male whom she really enjoys having sex with, and I want it to continue as much as possible. But keep in mind he's not the only guy out there, or the only couple out there you might click with all the way around. Keep shopping.

Originally Posted by swvacouplelookn

In fact, I tend to be a bit picky about women (hell, I'm married to the most beautiful woman in the world, so why wouldn't I be? LOL), so this sometimes makes it difficult to find couples we're both attracted to.

Nice compliment for your wife! Though, I have to disagree. I married the most beautiful woman in the world (want to have sex with her? )

Seriously, it can be difficult to find couples sometimes if you're picky. My wife and I talk about this a lot. We've been in the lifestyle about a year now too, and finding attraction all the way around is tricky, but very rewarding when its found. We've had some successes, but not perfection. if we found perfect, we'd love to be regulars with the couple forever. In such an event, I think solo play (not just separate room play) all the way around would work well, after we'd all played together several times.

Originally Posted by swvacouplelookn

I tend to agree that we'll just need to wait things out to see if her comfort level evolves into mine (or vice versa). In the meantime I offered to participate in a MFM with her and this guy to try to help things along for her!

Good husband! Good husband!


I also want to add on; I know you're not saying this is a tit for tat situation, but I've felt some feelings similar to yours before. In our development as swingers, my wife has been less comfortable with the idea of me having sex with other women than she and I both are with respect to her having sex with other men. The dichotomy brought me up short ~6 months ago, and for a few minutes angered me. I'm pretty good at working through irrational emotions, and did so quickly. It did generate a lot of good thought experiments and discussions with my wife.

Fun is fun. My wife really enjoys MFMs and I enjoy seeing her in them. If I ever tried to frame things in a tit-for-tat situation, or any sort of scoreboard, I'd be perennially unhappy in the lifestyle.

The fact is, women are in many ways the driving force in the lifestyle. My wife and I have grown together in exploring many things in the lifestyle, but it's always been at her pace, at her desire, at her pleasure. I think it will always be that way for us. I am not talking about cuckoldry. Just remember that men are at a bit of a disadvantage in the lifestyle.

In specific, I encourage you to take pleasure from each situation in isolation from any other situation. Comparisons, tit-for-tats, look-backs, etc are all bad for the ambiance of fun. Just relax, take things as they come. I'm not suggesting you be a door mat for your wife's sexual escapades. Rather, you develop as a couple in swinging and try to find happiness where it is, rather than trying to make the "where it is" into happiness. Square pegs and round holes, and all.

[swvacouplelookn]

Bbarnsworth, by responsibility I mean precisely what you said. I would be responsible for making sure things don't get out of hand in general when it comes to me and my playmate. If it does, then I have the responsibility to cut ties. That's really all I meant.

As for the rest of it, I also agree with continuing to explore other couples. It is actually a lot of fun just searching for compatibility. There is a lot for my wife and I to share just in the search itself...and in fact may account for the greater part of our fun so far. She is just really into this guy and wants to continue sexing him. And, I really want to help figure out if we can make that a reality for her while keeping us both comfortable. We've been talking quite a bit about it and she's enjoying reading everyone's input on the matter.

The bottom line is she and I are the constants and everyone else are the variables. Regardless of where we end up going with this, she and I will be completely okay with it. That HAS to be a given in these situations.