Swapping with a single outside the lifestyle

[rpu3]

First of all, I do not appreciate the negative comments against my husband. He is not going to leave me for this girl, he is not misleading or lying to me, he is not having an affair, and he is not saying bad things about me behind my back. How do I know this? Because he is my husband and I know him. You do not. Plus, I trust him. If I didn't trust him, we would have a whole other truck load of problems and we wouldn't be swinging. If you think he is doing something inappropriate in this situation, do voice your opinion. But remember that you are speaking about my husband so please try to do so with some respect.

Thank you for coming back and being so explicit as to your relationship. I was a bit surprised as to how fast some jumped on the "hubby is at fault" bandwagon. I personally never saw it that way at all. Perhaps it is a difference in perspective between those of us who actually are in an open marriage or swing solo, and those who do not and will not. It's one thing to ask questions regarding her spouse, but I have to say I was taken aback at some of the characterizations assumed without adequate information. Things ARE different on the solo/open side of the fence, folks, and this post is now in the Open Marriage/Solo forum.

... But my husband has decided that he will not sleep with her until we come to some resolution for the situation, either that I meet her and approve or we make it a permanent "hands off".

I'm very pleased to read this. You two sound quite realistic and respect each other. Your approach to resolving this issue seems similar to what we've done in the past.

I hope you will come back and let us know the outcome. I'm kind of nosy like that!

[Lovemates28]

rpu3 and IvoryTowers, thank you so much for your support and listening! You two have been great and I appreciate reading all of your posts. I will definitely come back and let you know how it all goes.

And with the lunch thing, it would definitely not be sprung on her or a surprise at all! My husband is planning on letting her know on Monday that I'll be coming by on Wednesday. We're going to kind of play it by ear and see where that leaves us for this weekend.

And thanks Julie for your story. It has occurred to both of us that this might be the end of the two of them playing on the side (which we are okay with), but I hadn't quite thought of it the way you pointed out. I appreciate your insight!

[iapr]

Originally Posted by Lovemates28

First of all, I do not appreciate the negative comments against my husband. He is not going to leave me for this girl, he is not misleading or lying to me, he is not having an affair, and he is not saying bad things about me behind my back. How do I know this? Because he is my husband and I know him. You do not. Plus, I trust him. If I didn't trust him, we would have a whole other truck load of problems and we wouldn't be swinging. If you think he is doing something inappropriate in this situation, do voice your opinion. But remember that you are speaking about my husband so please try to do so with some respect.

I think I am going to go to lunch with my husband again this week and at very least stop in and say hi to this girl and chat. From everything I've heard about her, I think we'll get along well. I think it may just be getting over the initial meet and doing that without living up to the terrifying image she has of "the wife". But my husband has decided that he will not sleep with her until we come to some resolution for the situation, either that I meet her and approve or we make it a permanent "hands off".

As for our lifestyle, my husband and I both swing. We've swapped with some couples, which is great, but we've also been with singles on occasion. But this was our first experience with someone not already in the lifestyle to some degree. That's why I was interested in coming on here and asking for advice.

Ok, I'll back off and take your word for it. You are right in that you know him and your marriage better than any of us. All any of us have to go on is what you wrote in your initial post and from there we all have to read between the lines and go with our gut to a certain extent.

I will stand by my fish statement though. when you smell fish there is something fishy going on. Now whether that fish smell is coming from him or her or the dynamics of all three of you is up for grabs but as it stands right now this does not make for a healthy swinging situation or poly situation, will you agree with me there?

I do agree with those that advise you to keep this out of the work place as much as possible. I realize others have a million times more tolerance for mixing work and pleasure but I would rather stick sharp objects in my before bringing any kind of lifestyle issues into my place of employment.

If you are wanting to meet this gal my advice would be to do it outside of the workplace and somewhere completely neutral and nonthreateing like a lounge or restaurant or something.

I also think that is an arraingment that should be completely brokered by your husband. I'm not getting digs on him. If I were in his shoes this is what I would want to do to clear my name and show everyone that I am playing fair. If his hands are as clean as you say they are then he should want to clear his name and show both of you ladies that he is sincere and that he is being open and honest with both of you.

If he refuses to do it then you have your answer there about his intentions.

If he makes a sincere effort to get the three of you to sit down together and she refuses to do it then you have your answer about her.

If they both refuse then you have your answer about both of them.

[iapr]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

I've been there...

I don't think your husband is telling her anything bad or leading her to believe anything that isn't true... unfortunately, I don't think he has to.

What I found both when playing solo (in an open marriage) and as a single female is that very often singles (females and males) in the hopes of getting the romantic relationship they really want will tell themselves what they want to hear, regardless of what the person they are having sex with is telling them.

When I was single, I reminded the guys I had sex with OFTEN that it was just sex... and if they didn't seem to want to believe that they weren't the only one... I eventually showed them proof.

I was in your (husband's) situation in my first marriage. We had an open marriage and I often had guys on the side. One guy in particular I kept trying to get to meet my husband and he just was not comfortable with it. He could not wrap his head around the idea of swinging, and I guess for him it was easier to convince himself I was cheating on my husband than to accept reality. I did finally get him to meet my husband, but then I never saw him again. He just could not accept the reality of the situation.

I think that might be what is going on with this girl. The reality is SO FAR outside of her norm and her comfort zone. Cheating is ok, because it's normal and almost accepted in society. It doesn't matter if he's leaving you (or if she's even telling herself that) in her mind that is ok. But, the idea of an open marriage (where you really and truely know everything that is going on) is not ok. She doesn't believe it to be true.

The advice someone else gave to call her up and invite her out yourself (or even just talk to her on the phone and say "yes I know, and it's ok, let's be friends is probably good advice. Just understand that it could mean the end for this relationship (with her).

I think there is a ton of wisdom in what Julie is saying and I don't know if it is a good thing or a bad thing in a situation like this. To many people the whole concept of someone having sex with permission outside of a marriage is unfathomable.

It's pretty ironic but I think a lot of people would actually have more success if they were PRETENDING to be cheating as opposed to being upfront and honest about it.

I think Julie also has a good point that if you two were to meet and have full disclosure it could be the beginning of the end for your husband and this gals relationship.

I think she thinks they are going to end up together whether she is being told that or not. It may be a good bet that once she realizes she is the booty call and in the secondary position AND ALWAYS WILL BE then she will bolt. I don't care how liberal or openminded someone is, women want their own primary relationship and want their partner devoted to them and they don't want to just burrow someone else's now and then on an ongoing basis.

the only thing I disagree with on what Julie said is that I think your husband should arrainge and broker you and her meeting. I don't think you should take into your own hands and do it yourself.

You are the wife here and you are the one with the vested interest in the sanctity of your marriage. If they are going to have their little play time they both need to be able to look you in the eye and show you that they will honor your interests in this whole thing.

(can you tell I am a traditionalist and not a poly?)

Ps I'm not really picking on your husband here. I would say the same thing to him if you were the one with the boyfriend and that BF was refusing to meet your husband

[Lovemates28]

Thanks iapr for getting back on here and clearing things up. Yes, my husband is making an effort to get us together. I think it's less intimidating for this girl that way anyways. My husband has repeatedly said to both of us that I come first and my needs come first. I also agree with the fish statement, which is why my husband is not going to be sleeping with her until we get things straightened out. I trust my husband and that the stink isn't coming from him. Optimistically, I'm hoping the stink is just this girls unfamiliarity with the swinging/open lifestyle. But I'm also prepared (as is my husband) for a less happy scenario where she does want something inappropriate and in which case, we're stopping things.

And as for the work thing, generally I would side with people and say that playing with someone at work is a terrible idea. But this one seems to be working okay. My husband and her don't work together at all (they only met through a chance run-in at the copy machine), they have separate bosses, departments, responsibilities and such. When they're at work, they talk mostly through texting on cell phones unless they go to lunch together. And they don't play at work, they either play during lunch (not extended lunches either) or at her place after work if I have to work late. (My husband won't let her take up "my" time and she understands that.) So while I'm sure there are the average number of rumors going around as there would be any time a male and female co-worker are friends, it seems to be working out fine.

[longtermcouple]

My wife and I have been swinging on and off for over 20 years. When my wife left work (laid off) a fellow employee told my wife she has always been his fantasy. She came home and told me and it made our sex lives highly intense for each other for 9 months and then it happened while I was at work. I knew in advance she was going to his house for sex. The friends w/ benefits sex started in Sep 2007 and continues yet in Mar 2009. They have been together sexually 22 times now and it has been wonderful for BOTH of us. I wait at home now when my wife leaves for 2 to 3 hours in his bed and we have "fantastic" sex when she gets back home.

Our sex lives are more intense with each other. Our love is stronger even after 36 years of marrriage together. We share our extra sex together. We call our extra marital sex with others "Marriage Enhancement" because it has made our love and marriage more intense and our communication and lives much stronger.

Sharing sex with others has saved and made our love and marriage stronger. We have been married 36 years, Involved Catholics, two grown children and are simply a normal, professional, clean, discreet and everyday couple. We simply like having a marriage full of love, enjoyment and the marriage enhancement sharing has brought to us. We don't cheat-we share!

Do what is good for the two of you! We did and are both very glad we made this recent move. I am so glad my wife has a friends w/benefits man. I get as much from their shared sex as my wife does! Thanks for making my marriage and sex drive for my wife more intense!!

[LFM2]

I believe that we all "swing" in our own way. Different scenarios doesn't make it wrong, just different. Sometimes we can understand their way of doing things and sometimes we can't, even though we don't swing that way. I think this may be one of those cases.

Putting myself into Mrs. Lovemates shoes. I would definitely want to meet the girl who caught my husbands eye. Nothing more than meet, get to know her a little and kind of understand where the Mr is coming from. I'm still his wife. I think I'd have that right.

I'm agreeing more with Julie. When I read the original post, and if I put myself into the 'girl at work' shoes, I'd be petrified to meet "the wife". Will she claw my eyes out for dating her husband? An awkward situation for sure. I'm sure she can't wrap her head around the relationship Mr and Mrs Lovemates has. It would have been foreign to me years ago. I would have hid, too. I think it's just out of her realm of comfort to meet his wife. Does that all make sense?

I like Ivory Towers suggestion and ask her to lunch yourself or call her to see if you can meet alone at her choice of location and talk. You know you're not a threat, but she doesn't know that. I'm sure your husband has told her of your wonderful qualities, and that you'd like to meet her, but still, I'd have the oddest feeling meeting "the wife".

[Lovemates28]

Update: So I met her and everything was cool. She walked right up to me, with a big genuine smile, looked me straight in the eye and introduced herself. We talked a few times during the night, joked about how we were both glad to be over the whole "first meeting" and by the end of the night, she gave me a big hug goodbye. I wouldn't go so far as to say we're BFF's, but I think she won't be terrified of me anymore. Mr. Lovemates still might wait a bit before jumping back in with her, just until I get a chance to spend some more time talking with her (not when she's hostessing a party). But I'd say the first meet went a lot better that I would have ever thought! I truely expected this to be a nightmare and that to be the end of the two of them. But if things stay cool, I think we'll be back on track! Thanks to everyone for all your thoughts!

[The Fuse]

Hi there,

I hope you'll come back and update us when something else happens.

Why do you think she was avoiding you previously? It's great that she was friendly when you did meet, but she was certainly avoiding it before. The fish comment is still relevant. A lot of smart things were said on this thread by several people. You seem to be the kind of person that wants to believe everything is fine. I hope you don't think a friendly smile and a hug means that your husband's girlfriend is suddenly all well adjusted with an accurate understanding of her situation as the secondary.

By the way, I understand the motivation of wanting to do something nice for your husband. I don't see it as doing something for this other woman. You care about your husband's happiness and wanted him to have the freedom and the fun. That is sweet and very giving. I would just suggest that you keep a watchful eye on this woman and make sure you really trust not only everything your husband says he tells her, but that she understands her situation.

Just one last thing. I don't know how old this lady is, whether she has other boyfriends besides your husband, whether she has any desire to have a relationship "of her own", or how much she likes your husband. But playing the percentages, most single women really are looking for a relationship where they are the primary. Just think about how you'd be viewing things if you were in her shoes, being vanilla and seeing a married man for so long. Don't you think you'd have some thoughts of a future with him?

[rpu3]

Update: So I met her and everything was cool. She walked right up to me, with a big genuine smile, looked me straight in the eye and introduced herself. We talked a few times during the night, joked about how we were both glad to be over the whole "first meeting" and by the end of the night, she gave me a big hug goodbye. I wouldn't go so far as to say we're BFF's, but I think she won't be terrified of me anymore. Mr. Lovemates still might wait a bit before jumping back in with her, just until I get a chance to spend some more time talking with her (not when she's hostessing a party). But I'd say the first meet went a lot better that I would have ever thought! I truely expected this to be a nightmare and that to be the end of the two of them. But if things stay cool, I think we'll be back on track! Thanks to everyone for all your thoughts!

Thank you very much for posting your update.

From the Been There, Done That camp, this is almost exactly how my meetings with The Spousal Unit's friends go down. There's no denying it's an awkward situation, and for your husband's friend, it may not necessarily be "fishy" but just as much as a "I have no idea what this entails or how it's going to go because all I have is my stereotypes of the wronged spouse!". Time will tell as to the "fishiness" of things. There's no rulebook or handbook about the best way to do something that's outside the the box for 95% of the population and talking, watching and waiting is mostly our approach towards my spouse's friends.

I'm glad you got the opportunity to meet her. I know there's only so much you can talk about on that first meeting, since it's the most awkward one, but I'm curious as to if you were able to talk frankly yet with her as to her reluctance to meet you, or if not, do you think you'll have an opportunity to discuss it in the future? I'm curious because my meeting of the friend is occasionally a reality-check for my spouse's friends (which is why I occasionally ask to meet them before there's sexual activity), and sometimes it's not something they ultimately could handle. I'm curious as to her reasons for avoiding you and what she took away from your meeting with her?

I hope you'll stop back with updates, at least!

[IvoryTowers]

Yes, thank you for the update! I hope all continues to go well and I commend your husband for pausing, even with the good first meeting, before sleeping with her again.

I wonder if her earlier fear was based on her belief that your husband was spinning a line about open marriages and this was a secret affair. With the internet so available, I could see her, after he repeated himself several times and you made your desire to meet her extremely clear, going on line and finding out about swinging. "Oh" she thinks, lightbulb going off "They really DO have an open marriage and this is a whole different way of thinking about relationships. I'm...well...interested." And thus the happy meeting.

But then, I'm ever the optimist about people and want to ascribe good motives until I am forced to ascribe bad.

[WesternSwing]

Because we do play separately as well as together and we are open to polyamorous relationships, we have run into this situation with both men and women. Mrs. WS recently had a several month relationship going on with a guy she met at work (she says it's not breaking our "no-coworker" rule because he works for a private contractor to her company ) . He's a really nice guy and has been nothing but fabulous to her, including always being up-front and honest. He started seeing a single gal at Mrs. work also and told her that he was seeing a married woman (not that that woman worked there, though) and if they ever got serious he would break it off. He also told Mrs. WS that, and when he did start to get serious with the single gal he did graciously break it off (though he still sends text messages that he misses Mrs. terribly ). But with all this, he was always freaked-out about meeting me, even though he knew she had total permission and I even signed a check to buy a camera from him (he's also a professional photographer and sold Mrs. one of his "last year's model" camera).

We've also not gone there at all with other single men because they would not meet me. The idea of Mrs. WS being married and cheating was a turn-on, but the idea of her having permission and meeting me freaked them out. They would email and text her over and over trying to get her to "cheat", saying things like "do you have to tell your husband EVERYTHING? Can't we just get a hotel room during your lunch break without him knowing?"

As far as single women, there are two single women that I'm very interested in that are friends with both Mrs. WS, who know of our lifestyle and still will not go "there" with me because they can't get past the idea that I'm married and have permission. They have told Mrs. WS that the idea of being somewhere having sex with me while Mrs. WS is home but know about it weirds them out, that they wouldn't know how to relate to Mrs. WS after that. The idea of sharing a person sexually and/or emotionally does not register properly in their head.

Of course one of these single women ended-up having almost a year relationship with a cheating married man and thought nothing of it. That did not freak her out because his wife did not know that they were having a relationship.

I think that some people are hardwired in a way that they can wrap their brains around the idea of consensual simultaneous multiple relationships and others can't. Your husband's girlfriend is one of those that can't.

I hate to say this, but my advice is for your husband to accept that maybe this won't work with her and take the chance of telling her outright that you and her are both a part of his life and that she either accepts you and makes you a part of her life as you want her to be a part of yours, or that this relationship really can't go further. I know he has chemistry with her, and I know you don't want to deprive him of her, but she's not thinking the same way. You and your husband are truly in a polyamorous relationship with her, she's just not with you.

It can work, too. There are three other women I play with solo on occasion and all three are friends with Mrs. WS. We go to parties with them, we go to dinner with them, the come over to our house for BBQ's and us to theirs. When one of them is in a relationship with someone else they don't hide the relationship they've had with me (us) from that person and they know that if that person can't accept that and us (even if I am not having sex with them anymore) than that person may not be "the one" for them.

It's all about being adults. As Mrs. WS would tell your husband's girlfriend (and did tell a potential playmate of mine one time that was playing this game with us): "Don't play big girl games if you can't be a big girl."

[Lovemates28]

Originally Posted by WesternSwing

It's all about being adults. As Mrs. WS would tell your husband's girlfriend (and did tell a potential playmate of mine one time that was playing this game with us): "Don't play big girl games if you can't be a big girl."

I like that line... I'm probably going to have to use it!

Thanks for all the feedback folks, I'll post updates as I get them.

[GoNatural]

Lovemates28, your final decision as quoted in ivorytowers' latest reply sounds excellent. I've been agreeing with ivorytowers all along.

I do think there are a couple of different explanations as to why this woman has been acting that way.

1) She can't break free from the cultural norms of mainstream society, so she continues to act like its an affair, which happens regularly in mainstream society.

2) She secretly wishes he were her boyfriend, so staying away from you helps keep that fantasy alive even if slightly.

3) Anxiety about meeting "the wife". This would probably be mixed in with a good dose of reason #1.

I do believe that some singles can make great friends w/benefits. I am a single male myself, and I would really like to be in such a situation. I've actually had threesomes with couples that would have wanted me to become a FWB to the wife, but I've been relocating too often.

In fact, I met a couple earlier this spring that was in a similar situation, yet slightly differnet.

The hubby has been having sex with two of the women where he works. One of them knows about the other woman that he is fucking at work, but the other does not, and thinks that she is the only one besides his wife. His wife knows the whole situation. They've all agreed not to tell that one chick at work any differently because of her personality. The huby, the wife, and other fuck buddy chick at work may all be in the wrong for not telling the whole truth to that last chick. That couple really was amazing and very open. They put nothing past people and know the variety of predicaments that people in up in socially. They were very entertaining, aside from being adventurous in bed. The wife craved being DP'ed, and it was a first for me to give it (double vaginal).