when you've fucked up your relationship by wanting to swing?

[Tarnished Halo]

Hello Everyone,
My husband and I were talking about some of the subjects on the swingersboard, and he asked me "what do you do when you've fucked up your relationship by wanting to swing? To further complicate the problem, when you STILL want to swing? How do you start over?

I then explained my thoughts on this, and I encourage you all to add your thoughts. This is what happens when one (either the husband or the wife) gets ahead of the other. IF you both take the necessary steps to reassure the other that NO...THERE ISN'T ANYTHING WRONG WITH YOU (or whatever the issue may be), and to discover this together, then you have a much better chance of either determining whether this is something that your relationship could either benefit from, or not. I obviously did not have this realtionship advantage.

My advice to him was to slow down. Way down. We have to now talk about all the things that he had thought about just in regards to himself (while keeping me out of the loop so to speak), and to determine what kind of "swinging" our relationship, should it come to that decision that WE make.

I believe that he feels the women in the lifestyle have the power to make the decisions, and the men simply have to either agree, or they don't get to swing. He knows that I am slower and would therefore would or could take advantage by just saying no, I don't want to do that, or I don't want HIM to do that. He feels he has no power of veto, or of making the decisions. Unfortunately, I think that the person, regardless of the gender, who is either more cautious, or going at a slower pace unavoidably is the one to determine at what speed the couple will go.

I also explained to him about my discovery about kissing. Previously, I could not have told him the "why" I didn't want him kissing someone else, but have since figured out and explained to him I wasn't just saying NO because I could control him. It seemed a tad more acceptable that even though my reasons were "goofy", I could articulate them to him instead of him just thinking that I was controlling the situation by forbidding something he saw as a natural reaction when "fucking". Cheesh.

We may never (and that might be appropriate for us) swing. There are others out there that are swinging and shouldn't and still more who would like to but either can't (due to objections), or won't. These people may or not be able to state with any clarity the "why" of their situations, but for those who are swinging, could you tap into your wealth of experience, and perhaps suggest ways to me that we may "begin again"? I obviously subscribe to the theory, that a bell cannot be unrung, but surely there are measures that he could see were effective, and at the same time be of some help to those whose realtionships have crashed and burned.

I have suggested that he read the various threads, but frequently, he is angered by suggestions that he isn't doing it for the "right" reasons, and feels that some swingers feel morally superior to him. I personally have no qualms about learning from someone who has more experience than I. You are all a font of wisdom for me, and I have gained more insight from your comments than I could begin to acknowledge.

Thank you all.
Tarnished.

[fredandwilma200]

I dont think of it as a control issue either! I have had jealous issues and would very much like to swing! I know in my heart that My husband would never leave me,,,my head feels different (if that makes since). I think about my husband being with another lady and get turned on but at the same time I get alittle jealous....so we are "starting over" which is hard for both of us....If it was control there would be no give,,,,,,,which you have to give some! I believe it is a comfort issue! If something doesnt make me feel comfortable then I shouldnt do it..and wont ...but I wont say "we cant do it" I will say...we will see how things go and then we will see...if you think that it isnt fair lets talk about it! If your husband is anything like mine..he just walks away from the situation because he doesnt want to talk about it because he is (in my opinion) afraid that I will say forget it all together! Which shouldnt be the worry...if he wants something have him ask...if he doesnt have him tell you! I know that is better said then done..because Im still trying to tell my husband that same thing but he wont listen so...GOOD LUCK! Its like beating your head against the wall...head bang

[SexhoundDog]

Tarnished,

First let me say that I'm not a swinger, although I'd love to have my wife want to be and therefore I would. You've hashed this out enough with your hubby and I believe laid all the cards on the table.

Now the main reason I identified myself as a non-swinger is because of the comment you made about your husband getting angry about anybody in these threads feeling "morally superior" to him or questioning his reasons for wanting to swing.

You can quote me to him on this:

"You just don't get it, do you fella?"

If he really got it, he'd be miles ahead of where he is in getting you to consider it! Instead of angering you or making you feel like there is something wrong with YOU, he really ought to be making you feel special and loved and that he'd like to try it for you as well as him.

It's kind of like the old saying "If Momma ain't happy, there ain't nobody happy." He needs to figure this out and quit beating up on you mentally or it simply isn't gonna happen.

[Alura]

Now, I'm really confused, Tarnished.

In the past your posts have given me the impression that you were very much opposed to swinging. I vaguely remember your having said that you were miffed that he would even think of suggesting it?

Are y'all now discussing the possibility of thinking about considering the lifestyle? If so, what has brought y'all to this point?

If you feel your marriage has been "fucked up" by discussing swinging, I wonder if your communication has changed along with it, and do you feel it is better or worse than before your husband brought up the subject?

In my opinion, there is only one way for a couple to "start over." You must agree to forget the past and work on the future. You must also decide if the future may include talking about swinging or if it is to be a taboo subject.

I'll tell you this, Lady. You're confusing, but you are a very interesting person.

Mr. Alura

[JustAskJulie]

so I take it you have been talking your head off to him and he is FINALLY starting to realize that he has pushed too hard and that the only way he will ever get what he wants is if he backs off a bit.

I think someone else made this comment already. The only way to start over is to completely back off teh swinging thing and start over completely concentrating on your relationship together. Get him into counseling WITH you and get him to show you just how much he really does care about you and your relatinship.... so much that he too is willing to make some sacrifices. Once that happens based on everything else we have read from you, I really think that you might open up to other ideas.

[GirlieZ]

I tend to be very quiet and shy (until you get to know me). I would say "no" before I would think about it and say "yes".

As confusing as it might be sometimes that "no" can be controlling, because you do not want to see your relationship harmed.

Its important to be able to say no without fear of having to deal with an irate spouse or partner. With that "no" comes responsibility. You and your partner have to be willing to talk in earnest about your reservations, get to the bottom of them. You have to figure out what turns you on...or off whatever the case may be. I've found that by talking about these things I've learned a lot about myself.

Zgirl (I'll add more later, right now I'm gonna go do some nasty things)

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally posted by Alura

In my opinion, there is only one way for a couple to "start over." You must agree to forget the past and work on the future. You must also decide if the future may include talking about swinging or if it is to be a taboo subject.
Mr. Alura

OK, Mr. Alura...I generally find you and Mrs. Alura rather wise about most things. So...can you please explain how a couple agrees to "forget the past and work on the future?" That's a lesson I think many of us could benefit from.

- EBF (no smiley face means I'm really serious)

[Tarnished Halo]

I do apologize to those who seem confused by me. I don't think that our relationship has been "fucked" up, he does. He takes responsibility for the mistakes that he has made and some of the decisions that have led us to this point in our lives, as have I. I have stated before that I was "miffed" that he would even consider it, but that was in the beginning. I have learned a lot of things about him and myself that I would have never dreamt possible. I DO find swinging a very confusing thing for me to understand and am still finding what my "comfort zone" is. Like I explained with kissing, at first it was just don't do it, but I couldn't explain the "why" part. I do understand the mechanisims going on with me now. That isn't to say that we will never kiss, but going in, it's not going to be something that I would be willing to do.
Yes, I have talked my head off to him, and I'm sure that he feels that I've talked HIS head off too. Yesterday we agreed to have these talks in smaller increments, and not to try to resolve anything in a marathon session. We both tend to start getting antsy when we are discussing anything that could be an emotional breakdown as neither of us want to argue.

He's tried to explain to me in various ways the allure of swinging. I don't really get it. What I do get is that it is something that he feels we could do without endangering our relationship, which is my primary concern. I WILL NOT do anything knowingly that is going to undermine us. The funny thing is the arguing about it has had a detremental effect of us. I had resolved not to argue which was really kind of pointless, and to try to discover what was going on with him. At first when he brought this up 20 years ago, if we would have talked (we both bear the burden of this mistake) about his thoughts and my horrified reaction to them, we wouldn't be doing this now.

I have told him and am stating to you that I would love to see the benefits that swinging entail. Is is possible to have these without swinging? I don't know. I do know that I love my husband, and really like our relationship. This is the ONLY area that we have any discomfort talking about. For my part, I intrepreted his desire to swing as a negative reflection on his happiness with me, and for quite a while could only compare myself to the women that he wanted to be with. While I am still not entirely comfortable with saying that, I do understand that he has seperated his feelings for me and his desires for others. I don't know that I can do that, but I see not only from him that you too do that, and perhaps I can also at some point.

Hope this makes sense.

[GirlieZ]

I love my husband...and he is so wonderful that I am compelled to share him. He has a tendency to make everyone feel good...He has a great personality. I love watching him with another woman. This fills my need to share.


Years ago~~when it was first brought up~~I thought "no way~~I don't think its for me". I thought that this was a way for my husband to go out and have some fun without any consequences. My husband backed off--didn't say anything more. However, I was very bisexual-I craved a woman to touch and taste. I had very vivid dreams about being with a woman. Everytime my husband and I talked about it, saw two women together in a porno, I became so turned on that I could hardly contain myself. I started thinking "Maybe I would enjoy being with another woman" An evolution started. I began opening my mind up to new ideas and realizing that not only did I want to be with other women--that I wanted to be with other men as well. Mind you--I've only been with another man a few times. As of late we have been exploring more, because we have FINALLY found a couple to play with.

Now all this fun did come with a few tears shed--a few spirited conversations, some misunderstandings. The most important thing that we did was communicate (which is what you are doing). If something bothered us, we'd talk about it right then and there, no waiting. We'd have pillow talk after sex, because its true that things can be said in the heat of passion, that are just meant for the spirit of the moment, not necessairly going to go out and do them.

My husband likes the lifestyle because he likes to see me get off with different people. He likes to think of his "good girl" being a really "bad girl". Its fun and I enjoy doing that for him.

I feel that its important that couples just entering this lifestyle know that it is inherently important to communicate constantly. Explore together--do kinky questionnaires--buy penthouse forum or Hustler Letters. Read them together--find out what gets you hott.

Tarnished, I believe that you said that you felt that swinging would be a negative reflection on your relationship. I have found swinging to be a posititve reflection of our relationship--its something wonderfully fun that we do together. We know that while my husband is doing some wonderfully hot things to one of our playmates and I am doing the same, we are going home together. Our confidence is seated in our never ending love for each other. While we are engaged in some act--all we have to do is lock eyes from across the room and KNOW what the other is feeling. If we had to we would never swing again--we don't want to--but its something that we would never do to hurt the other.

I hope that this makes sense.

Zgirl

[Rett]

Your husband asked you "what do you do when you've fucked up your relationship by wanting to swing?",

From your posts he has had this fantasy for about twenty years and it is something that you could never come to terms with either emotionally and/or morally- you believe it would go against your marriage vows for one thing. The husband is now putting more pressure on you trying to coerce you into swinging and it is quite naturally being resented. You truly love your husband but this issue has caused much distress in your marriage. Your husband does talk about the problems but really doesn't listen to you so you needed to go to a counselor by yourself to try to get somekind emotional support and understanding on how to deal with your marriage situation. The husband also is very locked into that what he believes and wants is most important and nobody else can change his opinions (he won't take anyone elses advice or even seek it) to the point where it almost broke up the marriage.

You have taken the only steps you could by reading and asking about swinging and seeking counseling alone. You have resented the hell out of his pushing with his desires but he just keeps pushing and proding. It's now gotten to the point where nothing seems to help except your giving in to him even though it remains an unresolved issue with you that is confusing and hard to understand. From starting out saying you probably would never give in to saying he didn't ask to have the desire to swing and is so far ahead of you ,so maybe it would be okay to concede to swinging . Sex might be allowed but no kissing yet everything is still confusing to understand and rightly so.

How do you salvage the relationship and start over. Well , you can't answer this without knowing yourself and your partner really well. If you feel insecure or are unhappy and feel bad it doesn't really matter if he loves you - there are problems that must be worked out. You must clarify what it is that you want in your moral convictions and relationship and then stand up for such.

Counseling can help to slow things down by making both of you listen to each other and hearing what each other believes , feels, and has to say rather than interpreting each others thoughts and hurt. It sounds as if a third party is necessary here since the husband only hears but does not really listen. With "both of you" involved a counselor will try to make both of you not just hear each other but listen and understand the problem and hurt that is being inflicted and see your partner more clearly. Once that step is taken , and only then, you can start trying to resolve the closer to home issues.

As you stated ,that if you give up your beliefs, you would change your name from "Tarnished" to "Rusted". That would be sad.

[BradAndJanet]

TH, I am so very happy that the two of you are talking and that we on the board have been able to provide you with information that has allowed you to express yourself more completely.

From where I sit, this is very good progress for y'all, so keep after it.

I'm sorry that your husband is feeling a bit 'beat up' by some of the comments here. He shouldn't take those personally; we don't really know him except in the context of this situation you've explained to us. Swingers generally have a strong reaction to those that are perceived as pressuring others, that's all it really is.

If you're comfortable with it, ask him to sign up and post a few times. We'd get to know him better, and vice versa. We all might learn something from that.

-B

[tazzie_n_truck]

Gotta say that your doing the best thing by talking about it. But in our expiriences if there seems to be any insecurities in a couple it is a sign to us that they are not ready to get started in the lifestyle that they have things in their own relationship to work out first before getting started in swinging.

We can say, keep the lines of communication open and talk with each other. If you both talk and listen to each other, you may both realize that swinging could be very enjoyable for you, or you may both come to the conclusion that it's just not for you.

soapbox

[Alura]

Originally posted by Elusive BiFem
OK, Mr. Alura...I generally find you and Mrs. Alura rather wise about most things. So...can you please explain how a couple agrees to "forget the past and work on the future?" That's a lesson I think many of us could benefit from.

- EBF (no smiley face means I'm really serious)

Mr. Alura: You don't let a guy off easy, EBF. Explaining this will be much more difficult than thinking it was.

I have the impression that Tarnished and her husband have had quite a few emotional discussions (call them "arguments") about swinging over the past twenty years. The injured feelings from those events are what need to be "forgotten" (which is probably not entirely possible) or at least accepted as "in the past" and not germane to the future. So leave all the ugliness in the past, forgotten or not.

Working on the future really boils down to working hard at communicating thoughts, beliefs, feelings, opinions and, most importantly, a couple's love for each other. I think most swingers say "I love you" and kiss much more often than our vanilla friends, and I think that comes from the communication which is nice for a vanilla marriage but imperative for a swinging couple.

(I've posted the following thought more than a few times on this board and nobody has ever responded to it, so forgive me if I bore you.)

Mrs. Alura and I had known each other less than a week when we decided we wanted to stay together. Both of us realized that the feelings that damage a marriage are the ones that are never talked about but are allowed to fester and grow in our minds. We wanted to be sure we would never be afraid to talk to each other about any subject. We made an agreement at the time that we would never get angry at any question that was asked and that we would always answer it as completely and truthfully as possible.

In twenty-four years together we've never been afraid to talk about any subject and I can truthfully say we've never had a discussion in which either of us raised his voice or hand to each other. The thing most surprising to me is how easy it has been.

I think Tarnished and her husband are on the right track toward communication and probably toward swinging together. I think she would agree that their communication has improved immeasurably since they became involved with swinging, if only this board and it's members.

Her attitude has changed from one of "You people are all low-lifes and shouldn't be doing what y'all are doing" to "Wow! These folks seem to know what they are doing; and they are pretty nice people." In other words, she's opened up her mind in areas I think she's never dreamed of. I wish her husband would post. I'd be interested in his perspective.

Mrs. Alura: In order to "forget the past and work on the future" I feel that it is imperitive to know/understand/agree that we humans are an evolutionary creature and what we may say/do/think today/last month/last year/ when we got married/ is not necessarily what we say/do/think/believe today. Our culture and our methods of communicating are bringing to our conscience, thoughts and ideas, at a rate almost impossible to assimilate. The "Tarnished Halo" couple is a perfect example. Here is a case of ideas changing, and a process of idea changing due to the internet.

What I think is most important here is that Mr. and Mrs. Tarnished Halo recognize that a change is taking place and to honor that change neither should say "But that's not what you said back when....." Move forward in the discussion and focus on the future and it's possibilities in conversation. Further, I think that it is important to realize that possibilities are being discussed here, not power trips.

A suggestion for creating healthy parameters for this type of conversation would be to have a chosen place (perhaps a restaurant and a date night) where this is expected to be the topic of conversation (where "swinging ideas" are shared and explored.) Another would be to have a "safe" place where it is understood that this will not be the topic of conversation. This way, anyone feeling threatened or overwhelmed can go and feel safe.

Also I think that it needs to be said that it is perfectly OK to say "That is interesting.....but I need time to think about and asimilate the idea before I can respond to it." And that time needs to be honored and not perceived as a control mechanism.

I feel that some couples are, perhaps, each feeling manipulated by the other to "see/do it my way" (in relation to Swinging in particular and oftentimes other topics in general) and until they agree that they won't use this (Swinging) arena for manipulation, the safety of the conversation will be questionable.

I believe that, since we are all taught to talk/communicate from the day we are born, we all tend to assume that we do it well. It is oftentimes a revelation, what freedoms can be gained, when parameters are placed on a conversation. All of a sudden, the communication clears and people are no longer reading into what has been said things that are not meant.

For me, the most important sub-issue to this communication thing is "teasing." Mr. Alura and I agreed when we met that we would not tease each other. Ever. Twenty four years later, we still don't tease. What is most wonderful about this is that we never have to question what the other has said. We don't wonder if it was meant as a joke, or to tease, or to hurt, or anything else. We know it was genuine.

Well, EBF, obviously, this is something that I feel strongly about, I've gone on at some length here. I hope that I have answered your question, or at least started to answer your question. Borders probably has about four feet of bookshelf space devoted to the subject.

Mr. & Mrs. Alura

[Elusive BiFem]

Thank you very much, Alura's. I think everyone can use this information to better all of their relationships - friendships, spouses, lovers...and particularly thank-you to Mrs. Alura.

For others, and particularly TH, it would be easy to read some of the Alura's comments as nothing more than some type of hyperbole. But let me say...I know them personally, and tho' I don't know them real well due to several hundred miles between our cities, I can assure you that you can "see" their communication (and the results of their communication) if you are fortunate enough to spend any amount of time with them. That's the reason I asked them to respond. Good advice for all. - EBF

[Alura]

Thank you, EBF. We're humbled and honored.

Mr. & Mrs. Alura