I Think This is Killing My Marriage

dortress · 10-02-2002, 02:17 AM

My husband and I have just spent 2 days arguing about swinging and I'm really beginning to think this is just going to kill our marriage. I need some advice (and I'll keep reading here) but I'm incredibly upset and I'm not sure this can be made better.

The important background is me: I was sexually abused as a young child and it took me an awfully long time to open up. In fact, I was a virgin until 30, though I dated. Met (now) husband at a time in my life where I felt confident and secure and we hit it off.

Imagine now that I'm a novice, so I'm in exploratory mode with a (more than) willing partner. We end up visiting all manner of clubs, playing with other couples, experimenting w/B&D, you name it. He's delirious: every freaking sexual fantasy coming true.

We marry, and as time goes by though, I'm liking this less and less. I'm hating the rejection (I'm not Liz Hurley), I'm hating the fakers. I'm not liking having people I wouldn't normally choose to date, or even remotely turn me on make advances on me. The turning point for me was attending a club where women were treated like chum by the men present. At the end of the evening, a drunken idiot looked at my (large) bosom and said "God, they're big", like I had some sort of mutant body parts. Lovely.

Husband has tried to be understanding and doesn't ask for clubs anymore. I try very hard for him, because I know he wants this. He arranges small encounters at home with other couples/singles. This works only moderately well. I'm fine and enjoy people's company (dinner, etc.) until we get to the point where it's time to take clothes off.

The last 'party' we went caused our worst argument to date. We attended with a single woman we'd played with, so there were 3 of us. I went off with someone I'd been with before, without him and that angered him. I told him I figured it didn't make a difference, since he had his playmate there and beside, isn't that what I'm expected to do at parties?

Our sex life is a shambles. He spends hours on the computer, looking at pictures and trying to find playmates for 'us' in chat rooms. I've tried dancing in front of him in lingerie, pulling on his privates, only to have him tell me "why don't you go inside and watch a video tape and let me know when you're ready, and I"ll come join you."

It's seven years later now and I'm just numb. I don't feel anything during sex anymore and I don't even want my husband to touch me. I can't tell you how long it's been since I've been aroused. "When Harry Met Sally" doesn't have anything on me in the bedroom.

My husband is angry and tells me he feels like he got sold a bills of goods when we got married. He wants 'the sexy woman who would do anything' back in his bed. All *I* want is to have my husband want to have intimacy with me, without having other people watch or participate. Instead, all I seem to have is a marriage where we occasionally 'vent fluids' in the presence of people I wouldn't normally choose.

I'm trying very hard to keep him happy, but frankly, this is killing me. I don't know how much longer I can do this.

Does anyone who's done this for awhile have any perspective to offer me. I'm just so freaking alone in this.

4sum · 10-02-2002, 07:27 AM

All relationships change over time. Periodically you have to come up for air and take a deep breathe, look around, and see where you are. Maybe that's what you guys need to do.

A couple of things here are troublesome. It seems like you have been doing this just for him, and that's just plain wrong. Especially for seven years! We've been at it for over three years and we still try and periodially re-evaluate what our relationships mean to us.

It looks like your husband is on auto-pilot. While the fun is real fun for us...if it wasn't adding anything positive to our relationship with each other it would be time to stop. From the fact that you're arguing at least your talking about it. But if the disagreement is that intense then certainly putting the swinging on hold seems like a good idea...at least until you get the rest figured out.

One of the best pieces of advice I got from a gentleman who had been swinging since before I was born, was to always make sure to reconnect with my mate. Seems like you guys haven't done that and are heading out of control. This needs to be good for everyone in order for it to work.

Good luck.

ciscosv · 10-02-2002, 11:01 AM

Hi dortress! You definately dont sound very happy about your current situation. Does talking about swinging, cancelling swinging that cause the arguments or is it talking to your husband about how unhappy all this is starting to make you? I would like to point out a couple of things that dont realate to the big issue here first.

You should seek proffesional help if you feel that your issues are coming back to haunt you. This is serious business and can not be ignored if you want to keep your insanity. Also your husband absolutely has to supportive of this as people that have not been abused will not be able understand the feelings involved or relate to you emotionally. (I recall a thread about a month back pertaining to some past sexual abuse and swinging in this "HELP" topic)

We all have to accept the fact that there are going to be people/couples that will not want to swing with a particular couple for any number of reasons including the number one - "looks". I dont have an eight inch cock nor do I fit the tall dark and handsome profile. We are a young couple as well. I can go on and on but have proven my point. Oh well. My wife and I deal with what we got because that wont change. We know what we look for in a couple and what we dont. So we all have to deal with rejection and fakers at some point.

My wife has fairly large breasts 38dd's (not abnormally large) that spur gawks and comments . It has been that way throughout her high school days to the presant. People do and say things when they are drunk that would not normally happen when they are sober. Some even need to be ignored and avoided. (We had to avoid an obnoxious drunk one evening at a swinging function) This happens where alcohol is permitted.

You wrote about wandering off with another man and asuming that your husband is cool because he has a partner as well? Dont you two have any rules to abide by to avoid these types of uncomfortable feelings and situations?

You clearly point out that the intamacy is missing in your relationship with your huband and that you would like to recover just that. This can happen in a relationship when sex becomes routine. You also talk about sex feeling numb. Does that carry over to your husband as well? Taking 4sum's advice and call a time out seems to be a good thing to do for the meantime. Spending hours searching for new partners and less time with his life partner is a destructive behavior. Why does he not realise this?

The back handed comment about the "goods" is complete shit. Does he always say things like that? It could be a sign of mental abuse or just out of anger. (I'd expect and deserve a slap in the face or a swift kick to the balls for saying something like that.

Your husband should understand that if you dont swing he is a single male. He should respect you and your feelings no matter what.

I hope all goes well and that maybe more folks will chime in with their advice.

OhioCouple · 10-02-2002, 04:06 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dortress:


The important background is me: I was sexually abused as a young child and it took me an awfully long time to open up. In fact, I was a virgin until 30, though I dated. Met (now) husband at a time in my life where I felt confident and secure and we hit it off.

Imagine now that I'm a novice, so I'm in exploratory mode with a (more than) willing partner. We end up visiting all manner of clubs, playing with other couples, experimenting w/B&D, you name it. He's delirious: every freaking sexual fantasy coming true.

We marry, and as time goes by though, I'm liking this less and less. I'm hating the rejection (I'm not Liz Hurley), I'm hating the fakers. I'm not liking having people I wouldn't normally choose to date, or even remotely turn me on make advances on me. <hr /></blockquote>Hello dortress,

First I would like to say that I agree fully with everything that Ciscosv and 4sum have said. I would though, like to add a couple of more pieces of advice.

My first concern does focus on the sexual abuse. I am going to assume you had some sort of counseling. If you did not, I would suggest you do so right away. I mean this sincerely. <big hug>

Based on what you wrote, it appears that you dove head first into this relationship and were willing to give, give, give in order to satisfy your (now) husband. Did you participate out of curiosity based on the trust that you had established with your husband? You wrote that he was delirious, but say nothing about how you felt during the early times. How did you feel?

Secondly, the comments that are used to describe your feelings regarding swinging after marriage. The words of "I hate", "not liking", "hating this" suggest to me that you were only involved to satisfy your husband.

Take those steps back and get your priorities (meaning what you desire for yourself and your husband) in check before venturing again into the lifestyle.

dave_susie2001 · 10-02-2002, 09:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OhioCouple:

Take those steps back and get your priorities (meaning what you desire for yourself and your husband) in check before venturing again into the lifestyle.<hr /></blockquote>Couldn't have said it better myself.

To be successful in the lifestyle, you can't have any emotional baggage holding you back. There are a whole lot more issues here that are "killing your marriage." Swinging in your situation could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

OhioCouple · 10-02-2002, 11:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dave_susie2001:
 There are a whole lot more issues here that are "killing your marriage." Swinging in your situation could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.<hr /></blockquote>I didn't want to bring that up in my previous post as I didn't want them to think that I was being overly critical.

You are absolutely correct...there are issues that do not involve swinging which are creating a problem. Swinging is, as you stated...the straw that is breaking the camel's back.

dortress · 10-03-2002, 12:55 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />To be successful in the lifestyle, you can't have any emotional baggage holding you back. There are a whole lot more issues here that are "killing your marriage." Swinging in your situation could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for the responses. I'll keep reading here - it's been helpful in understanding some of my emotions.

To answer questions: yes, I liked it some in the beginning. But, there have been other issues between us, coupled with *bad* experiences and I've just been increasingly turned off. Our lack of personal intimacy has contributed to my being even more resentful of this activity. Combined with the fact that he manages to be a more attentive, thoughtful lover with strangers than he is with me hasn't exactly made me desirous of this. To answer another question: no, at this point I don't even desire him.

I have had counseling re: my abuse, and it helped. I mention the early abuse only to explain my late start in sexual life.

As far as a "Bill of Goods" - yes, he's said that before. We argued again tonight and I said how felt and his response was to say how angry and frustrated he was with me now about "not even being able to have this little bit of side pleasure anymore". I "ruined" it. I was livid. I'd just told him I didn't feel loved, cherished or desired and that this activity wasn't reinforcing that and the best he could do is tell me how disappointed he was about not being able to swing anymore.

So yes, there are more problems here.
I guess this pretty much sums it all up. He keeps telling me this is about 'sharing pleasure with each other', but in the absence of other things, I'm not feeling that. He says this isn't a "zero sum game. Just because I have sex with someone else doesn't mean I don't want you." But if we're not being intimate, then what is it?

And since he won't consider counseling, I'm not sure there's progress to be made.

Thanks for listening. You're right, the problem is more than the swinging.

sportync · 10-03-2002, 09:23 AM

Dortress: I can certianly sympathize with your situation, and a couple of suggestions come to mind. The first one would be to have your husband spend a little less time looking for perspective playmates on the computer. What he really needs to do is log on and read this series of answers to your original post. Maybe by reading the comments of other people who have some experience in this lifestyle, he will realize that this isn't all about him...his wishes, desires, fantasies and desires, but about the TWO of you sharing and growing together. He might become aware of the serious mistakes that he is making by ignoring your needs and consentrating so much on his own. It seems like he is displaying some very selfish behavior which in no way reflects how a loving, caring couple should respond to each other. IMOHO, swinging is about expanding on a loving relationship and allowing BOTH people the opportunity to explore their fantasies together, even though they are sharing them with others. If it isn't fun for BOTH people, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. I get the feeling that the activities envolving others has taken priority( for him) over the relationship that the two of you have together. This appears to have become somewhat of an obsession to him. Swinging is fun and exciting and erotic, but it could never replace the intimacy that my wife and I share together( nor would I want it to). It is something that occasionally adds a bang (pardon the pun) to a great relationship between two people, and allows us the opportunity to experience things which two people alone could not do. The second thing that I would suggest is turn off the computer, leave the cell phone home and get outta Dodge for a long weekend- just the two of you and talk, share your feelings and try to rekindle the feelings that brought the two of you together in the first place. If you can find out why he's behaving the way he is, then maybe you can come to a better understanding of what the real problem is. Best of luck and I sincerely hope things get better for you two. Sportync

ciscosv · 10-03-2002, 10:01 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dortress:


As far as a "Bill of Goods" - yes, he's said that before. We argued again tonight and I said how felt and his response was to say how angry and frustrated he was with me now about "not even being able to have this little bit of side pleasure anymore". I "ruined" it. I was livid. I'd just told him I didn't feel loved, cherished or desired and that this activity wasn't reinforcing that and the best he could do is tell me how disappointed he was about not being able to swing anymore.

So yes, there are more problems here.
I guess this pretty much sums it all up. He keeps telling me this is about 'sharing pleasure with each other', but in the absence of other things, I'm not feeling that. He says this isn't a "zero sum game. Just because I have sex with someone else doesn't mean I don't want you." But if we're not being intimate, then what is it?

And since he won't consider counseling, I'm not sure there's progress to be made.

<hr /></blockquote>Your husband is way off track and in a world of his own right now since he is not considering your feelings. Sportync is right. The comments you made would lead us to believe that he is obssesed with this. I wonder why he wouldn't consider counseling? That is not a good sign. I really do hope the best for you. Send him to single male land!

ciscosv · 10-03-2002, 10:05 AM

Oops. I hate it when I do that. I did not mean for that last sentence to sound like I said to seperate/divorce your husband. I would never tell anymarried couple that for it is not my decision. What I menat was that he is a single male without his wife and could be a little burdensome on him. Hope that clears it all up.

***JustAskJulie*** · 10-03-2002, 02:09 PM

I held off on posting to this topic yesterday waiting to see if the original poster came back and answered some of the questions asked.

To me it sounds like this guy really doesn't care. He has already put swinging above your relationship so his priorities are definately not with you. His unwillingness to see a counselor only emphasizes that fact. Obviously he doesn't see a problem or he feels that the only problem is that you won't swing (again showing that his priorities are screwed up).

I agree with those that say that in this case Swinging can be the straw that breaks the camels back. You guys need to find a way to resolve the other issues in your marriage before swinging is even discussed again.

Randy624 · 10-04-2002, 11:52 PM

Hi I am new to this, so if I offend anyone, I appologize. I have read your post and all the replies. Where I lack in experience, I do understand what you're going through and how you feel. I have to agree with everyone else in that; your husband has his priorities all out of control. My wife and I have had arguments about swinging as well and I have always told her that if she didn't like it anymore, then we would quit. Since we have only been with 2 other couples, I don't have much experience to fall back on. But I have seen a lot of things tear apart a marriage to say the least. I can only say that you should keep trying to work things out with your husband. Sooner or later he will hopefully snap out of it and see just how much he is hurting you. None of what he is doing to you is your fault. I hope that everything works out for the best. Take care and I wish you well, good luck...

babydragon · 10-05-2002, 05:52 AM

I have to agree with everything thats been posted on here to you. If your hubby spends most of his time looking for playmates for "you both" and cant or wont see the pain he is causing by this, then you have to make serious choices. You dont say that much about his attitude but what you have said would cause most couples to feel that something is deffinately wrong somewhere.
Maybe the answers are already there you just need some prodding to go for it and some sort of reassurance that your not being over zealous (which you are not).
Could you both try to find a little time without the internet on or something else doing on to maybe talk throught these problems, giving you both time to state what you feel is the matter?
Most swinging couple before they even set out on this road set rules or limits to what is exceptiable to both parties did you do this? and if you did has someone stepped passed that limit? all these things need to be addressed before you can move on and rebuild that love you once shared and still do, it's just prolly underneath all the luggage your both trying to handle atm.
Sorry if anything I have said is out of line but I hope somewhere in my bad typing, spelling you might find something that helps.

coolwetbreeze · 10-09-2002, 12:34 PM

Dortress...It's time to quit worrying about your husbands feelings and concentrate on your own...You don't enjoy swinging and you don't want to do it...Plain and simple. Then don't! He is trying to manipulate you into doing what he wants by the woe is me comments he's been making...You need to stop being so angry at him and yourself and realize that you are the most important thing right now 'cause he isn't thinking with the right head...STICK TO YOUR GUNS!! Let him know that you aren't interested ,period. Then don't even discuss it with him again. When he realizes you aren't kidding he will then wake up and hopefully start thinking with the right head. Concentrate on what you really want and that is the intimacy you had before. Your husband doesn't even realize that he is in the f*** mode. He thinks all he has to do is be there, insert and off he goes...He needs to realize that you need more...the fore play, the intimacy, the romance that you used to get before all the swinging took over...ok...I've rambled on enough.
I agree with the other post that said you should have him read this...he will most likely get angry but oh well...it will do him good to hear from other people how selfish and unloving he is being.

AnonDude · 10-10-2002, 01:13 AM

I don't want to offend anyone here but I am going to play devil's advocate.

It seems to me that this forum is in a feeding frenzy on your husband and all we have is information from your perspective. I have been around long enough to know that there are always two sides to every story and usually there is merit in the spoken argument of each side.

You made statements in your post that lead me to believe you have issues with yourself, be it looks, general self view - whatever. That you suffered sexual abuse as a child would lead me to believe this even more. I was married for 10 years to a woman who had been sexually abused from the age of 4 until the age she left home. Put simply, she had no self-esteem or self-worth and nothing was ever her fault. No sense of responsibility or culpability for her own actions.

I don't know how this abuse has affected you, only you are in a position to know that. What I would venture to say is that you are in a marriage with someone you must care about, or you wouldn't have married him and as such you have a responsibility to him - as much as he has a responsibility to you.

It sounds like the two of you are involved in a lifestyle that he enjoys greatly. It also sounds like much of his love for you was/is predicated on your desire to join him in an alternative lifestyle.

If this lifestyle must end I feel he is entitled to an explanation, as much as you are entitled to an explanation why it must continue. Marriage is a two way street.

If your reticence to continue the lifestyle is based on self-esteem issues then you need to address these feelings with him and do so with the intent to resolve them - not use them as an excuse.

If you enjoyed swinging before then you are a swinger. If you have since developed issues with swinging then it is only fair to yourself, your husband and your marriage to address these feelings and find resolution. If the underlying issues have to do with your looks then you need to overcome that (everyone is beautiful and there are always equals out there), if it is latent abuse issue resurfacing then you may need counseling or at the very least a supportive ear from your lifemate.

You need to LIKE yourself and be self confident - if you lack this then you need to get it or regain it. One way I have found with the women I have know is that they need to be told how beautiful they are, or how sexy they are and it means much more coming from someone they love. Let him know you need it - tell him it may sound crazy but you need to hear it and you need to know he means it.

I will let you in on a little secret here - men need the same assurance about their virility and manhood as women need about their sexiness and beauty - they're just too damn stubborn and manly to admit it and often they evidence their insecurities by being an asshole. That's why men are assholes more often than women. I'd wager he'll understand your need for re-affirmation more than you think.

I have found in relationships that friction filled atmospheres tend to spiral to intolerable levels. He, likely, feels you have vectored off in some inane direction with issues about how unattractive or unworthy you are while you feel he has left you crying in the middle of the street - not caring about your feelings.

It seems to me that the truth lies somewhere in between.

If you want to save your marriage then you need to accept some of the responsibility about what your relationship is, was and will be. Step up to the plate armed with this new acceptance and prepare to be an equal, not a victim.

Understand he has feelings, that this is important to him and also that you want to be with him as a wife, partner, lover and friend - not a ticket into the swing clubs.

Don't cry about it. State your point. If he gets upset then take a break and come back to the conversation 5 minutes later, or 10. Continue until you feel you have at least found a starting point towards resolution. Don't go to him crying -impress him with the strength of your resolve. Don't be an asshole even if he is - walk away and come back. Be an adult even if he refuses. Don't speak simply to be right or throw verbal knives - speak to find resolution, the future of your marriage hinges on it and you need to discuss it with the determination that accompanies such matters of importance.

Remember - many couples find swinging to be a fantastic thing for them so the act itself is not wrong. It may be wrong for some people but you enjoyed it once so I doubt this is the case for you. It sounds to me like YOU need to think YOU are beautiful and the one you turn to most for that confirmation is showing the evidence of that feeling to other women.

Tell him. Tell him if he wants his swing partner back and wants this to be fun for both of you again then by damn - here's what you need!

It may not work the first time but keep trying. In the movie "The Mexican" the coolest line wnet something like this: "When you love someone, when is it too much? When is enough, enough?"

"Its never too much... its never enough..."

Question is: do you love him? The rest is just a hell of a lot of work.

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10-02-2002, 02:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
dortress Registered Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3 Location: New York, NY	I Think This is Killing My Marriage My husband and I have just spent 2 days arguing about swinging and I'm really beginning to think this is just going to kill our marriage. I need some advice (and I'll keep reading here) but I'm incredibly upset and I'm not sure this can be made better. The important background is me: I was sexually abused as a young child and it took me an awfully long time to open up. In fact, I was a virgin until 30, though I dated. Met (now) husband at a time in my life where I felt confident and secure and we hit it off. Imagine now that I'm a novice, so I'm in exploratory mode with a (more than) willing partner. We end up visiting all manner of clubs, playing with other couples, experimenting w/B&D, you name it. He's delirious: every freaking sexual fantasy coming true. We marry, and as time goes by though, I'm liking this less and less. I'm hating the rejection (I'm not Liz Hurley), I'm hating the fakers. I'm not liking having people I wouldn't normally choose to date, or even remotely turn me on make advances on me. The turning point for me was attending a club where women were treated like chum by the men present. At the end of the evening, a drunken idiot looked at my (large) bosom and said "God, they're big", like I had some sort of mutant body parts. Lovely. Husband has tried to be understanding and doesn't ask for clubs anymore. I try very hard for him, because I know he wants this. He arranges small encounters at home with other couples/singles. This works only moderately well. I'm fine and enjoy people's company (dinner, etc.) until we get to the point where it's time to take clothes off. The last 'party' we went caused our worst argument to date. We attended with a single woman we'd played with, so there were 3 of us. I went off with someone I'd been with before, without him and that angered him. I told him I figured it didn't make a difference, since he had his playmate there and beside, isn't that what I'm expected to do at parties? Our sex life is a shambles. He spends hours on the computer, looking at pictures and trying to find playmates for 'us' in chat rooms. I've tried dancing in front of him in lingerie, pulling on his privates, only to have him tell me "why don't you go inside and watch a video tape and let me know when you're ready, and I"ll come join you." It's seven years later now and I'm just numb. I don't feel anything during sex anymore and I don't even want my husband to touch me. I can't tell you how long it's been since I've been aroused. "When Harry Met Sally" doesn't have anything on me in the bedroom. My husband is angry and tells me he feels like he got sold a bills of goods when we got married. He wants 'the sexy woman who would do anything' back in his bed. All I want is to have my husband want to have intimacy with me, without having other people watch or participate. Instead, all I seem to have is a marriage where we occasionally 'vent fluids' in the presence of people I wouldn't normally choose. I'm trying very hard to keep him happy, but frankly, this is killing me. I don't know how much longer I can do this. Does anyone who's done this for awhile have any perspective to offer me. I'm just so freaking alone in this.

10-02-2002, 07:27 AM	#2 (permalink)
4sum Here to Stay Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 92 Location: CT Status: Fourple	All relationships change over time. Periodically you have to come up for air and take a deep breathe, look around, and see where you are. Maybe that's what you guys need to do. A couple of things here are troublesome. It seems like you have been doing this just for him, and that's just plain wrong. Especially for seven years! We've been at it for over three years and we still try and periodially re-evaluate what our relationships mean to us. It looks like your husband is on auto-pilot. While the fun is real fun for us...if it wasn't adding anything positive to our relationship with each other it would be time to stop. From the fact that you're arguing at least your talking about it. But if the disagreement is that intense then certainly putting the swinging on hold seems like a good idea...at least until you get the rest figured out. One of the best pieces of advice I got from a gentleman who had been swinging since before I was born, was to always make sure to reconnect with my mate. Seems like you guys haven't done that and are heading out of control. This needs to be good for everyone in order for it to work. Good luck.
	__________________ Champagne for my true friends! And true pain for my sham friends! ~ Oscar Wilde

10-02-2002, 11:01 AM	#3 (permalink)
ciscosv Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 755 Location: Redford, Michigan Status: Married Couple	Hi dortress! You definately dont sound very happy about your current situation. Does talking about swinging, cancelling swinging that cause the arguments or is it talking to your husband about how unhappy all this is starting to make you? I would like to point out a couple of things that dont realate to the big issue here first. You should seek proffesional help if you feel that your issues are coming back to haunt you. This is serious business and can not be ignored if you want to keep your insanity. Also your husband absolutely has to supportive of this as people that have not been abused will not be able understand the feelings involved or relate to you emotionally. (I recall a thread about a month back pertaining to some past sexual abuse and swinging in this "HELP" topic) We all have to accept the fact that there are going to be people/couples that will not want to swing with a particular couple for any number of reasons including the number one - "looks". I dont have an eight inch cock nor do I fit the tall dark and handsome profile. We are a young couple as well. I can go on and on but have proven my point. Oh well. My wife and I deal with what we got because that wont change. We know what we look for in a couple and what we dont. So we all have to deal with rejection and fakers at some point. My wife has fairly large breasts 38dd's (not abnormally large) that spur gawks and comments . It has been that way throughout her high school days to the presant. People do and say things when they are drunk that would not normally happen when they are sober. Some even need to be ignored and avoided. (We had to avoid an obnoxious drunk one evening at a swinging function) This happens where alcohol is permitted. You wrote about wandering off with another man and asuming that your husband is cool because he has a partner as well? Dont you two have any rules to abide by to avoid these types of uncomfortable feelings and situations? You clearly point out that the intamacy is missing in your relationship with your huband and that you would like to recover just that. This can happen in a relationship when sex becomes routine. You also talk about sex feeling numb. Does that carry over to your husband as well? Taking 4sum's advice and call a time out seems to be a good thing to do for the meantime. Spending hours searching for new partners and less time with his life partner is a destructive behavior. Why does he not realise this? The back handed comment about the "goods" is complete shit. Does he always say things like that? It could be a sign of mental abuse or just out of anger. (I'd expect and deserve a slap in the face or a swift kick to the balls for saying something like that. Your husband should understand that if you dont swing he is a single male. He should respect you and your feelings no matter what. I hope all goes well and that maybe more folks will chime in with their advice.
	__________________ M&M Melts in your mouth, not in your hand

10-02-2002, 04:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
OhioCouple Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,619 Location: Ohio Status: Married Female	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by dortress: <strong> The important background is me: I was sexually abused as a young child and it took me an awfully long time to open up. In fact, I was a virgin until 30, though I dated. Met (now) husband at a time in my life where I felt confident and secure and we hit it off. Imagine now that I'm a novice, so I'm in exploratory mode with a (more than) willing partner. We end up visiting all manner of clubs, playing with other couples, experimenting w/B&D, you name it. He's delirious: every freaking sexual fantasy coming true. We marry, and as time goes by though, I'm liking this less and less. I'm hating the rejection (I'm not Liz Hurley), I'm hating the fakers. I'm not liking having people I wouldn't normally choose to date, or even remotely turn me on make advances on me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hello dortress, First I would like to say that I agree fully with everything that Ciscosv and 4sum have said. I would though, like to add a couple of more pieces of advice. My first concern does focus on the sexual abuse. I am going to assume you had some sort of counseling. If you did not, I would suggest you do so right away. I mean this sincerely. <big hug> Based on what you wrote, it appears that you dove head first into this relationship and were willing to give, give, give in order to satisfy your (now) husband. Did you participate out of curiosity based on the trust that you had established with your husband? You wrote that he was delirious, but say nothing about how you felt during the early times. How did you feel? Secondly, the comments that are used to describe your feelings regarding swinging after marriage. The words of "I hate", "not liking", "hating this" suggest to me that you were only involved to satisfy your husband. Take those steps back and get your priorities (meaning what you desire for yourself and your husband) in check before venturing again into the lifestyle.
	__________________ Remember that human beings are complicated creatures. We like our bedtime routines but dislike routine in our bed times. - Sallie Foley, M.S.W.

10-02-2002, 09:46 PM	#5 (permalink)
dave_susie2001 Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 284 Location: Michigan Status: Married Couple	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OhioCouple: <strong> Take those steps back and get your priorities (meaning what you desire for yourself and your husband) in check before venturing again into the lifestyle.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Couldn't have said it better myself. To be successful in the lifestyle, you can't have any emotional baggage holding you back. There are a whole lot more issues here that are "killing your marriage." Swinging in your situation could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

10-02-2002, 11:28 PM	#6 (permalink)
OhioCouple Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,619 Location: Ohio Status: Married Female	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by dave_susie2001: <strong> There are a whole lot more issues here that are "killing your marriage." Swinging in your situation could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't want to bring that up in my previous post as I didn't want them to think that I was being overly critical. You are absolutely correct...there are issues that do not involve swinging which are creating a problem. Swinging is, as you stated...the straw that is breaking the camel's back.
	__________________ Remember that human beings are complicated creatures. We like our bedtime routines but dislike routine in our bed times. - Sallie Foley, M.S.W.

10-03-2002, 12:55 AM	#7 (permalink)
dortress Registered Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3 Location: New York, NY	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>To be successful in the lifestyle, you can't have any emotional baggage holding you back. There are a whole lot more issues here that are "killing your marriage." Swinging in your situation could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thank you for the responses. I'll keep reading here - it's been helpful in understanding some of my emotions. To answer questions: yes, I liked it some in the beginning. But, there have been other issues between us, coupled with bad experiences and I've just been increasingly turned off. Our lack of personal intimacy has contributed to my being even more resentful of this activity. Combined with the fact that he manages to be a more attentive, thoughtful lover with strangers than he is with me hasn't exactly made me desirous of this. To answer another question: no, at this point I don't even desire him. I have had counseling re: my abuse, and it helped. I mention the early abuse only to explain my late start in sexual life. As far as a "Bill of Goods" - yes, he's said that before. We argued again tonight and I said how felt and his response was to say how angry and frustrated he was with me now about "not even being able to have this little bit of side pleasure anymore". I "ruined" it. I was livid. I'd just told him I didn't feel loved, cherished or desired and that this activity wasn't reinforcing that and the best he could do is tell me how disappointed he was about not being able to swing anymore. So yes, there are more problems here. I guess this pretty much sums it all up. He keeps telling me this is about 'sharing pleasure with each other', but in the absence of other things, I'm not feeling that. He says this isn't a "zero sum game. Just because I have sex with someone else doesn't mean I don't want you." But if we're not being intimate, then what is it? And since he won't consider counseling, I'm not sure there's progress to be made. Thanks for listening. You're right, the problem is more than the swinging.

10-03-2002, 09:23 AM	#8 (permalink)
sportync Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 232 Location: eastern north carolina	Dortress: I can certianly sympathize with your situation, and a couple of suggestions come to mind. The first one would be to have your husband spend a little less time looking for perspective playmates on the computer. What he really needs to do is log on and read this series of answers to your original post. Maybe by reading the comments of other people who have some experience in this lifestyle, he will realize that this isn't all about him...his wishes, desires, fantasies and desires, but about the TWO of you sharing and growing together. He might become aware of the serious mistakes that he is making by ignoring your needs and consentrating so much on his own. It seems like he is displaying some very selfish behavior which in no way reflects how a loving, caring couple should respond to each other. IMOHO, swinging is about expanding on a loving relationship and allowing BOTH people the opportunity to explore their fantasies together, even though they are sharing them with others. If it isn't fun for BOTH people, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. I get the feeling that the activities envolving others has taken priority( for him) over the relationship that the two of you have together. This appears to have become somewhat of an obsession to him. Swinging is fun and exciting and erotic, but it could never replace the intimacy that my wife and I share together( nor would I want it to). It is something that occasionally adds a bang (pardon the pun) to a great relationship between two people, and allows us the opportunity to experience things which two people alone could not do. The second thing that I would suggest is turn off the computer, leave the cell phone home and get outta Dodge for a long weekend- just the two of you and talk, share your feelings and try to rekindle the feelings that brought the two of you together in the first place. If you can find out why he's behaving the way he is, then maybe you can come to a better understanding of what the real problem is. Best of luck and I sincerely hope things get better for you two. Sportync
	__________________ this ain't no dress rehearsal

10-03-2002, 10:01 AM	#9 (permalink)
ciscosv Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 755 Location: Redford, Michigan Status: Married Couple	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by dortress: <strong> As far as a "Bill of Goods" - yes, he's said that before. We argued again tonight and I said how felt and his response was to say how angry and frustrated he was with me now about "not even being able to have this little bit of side pleasure anymore". I "ruined" it. I was livid. I'd just told him I didn't feel loved, cherished or desired and that this activity wasn't reinforcing that and the best he could do is tell me how disappointed he was about not being able to swing anymore. So yes, there are more problems here. I guess this pretty much sums it all up. He keeps telling me this is about 'sharing pleasure with each other', but in the absence of other things, I'm not feeling that. He says this isn't a "zero sum game. Just because I have sex with someone else doesn't mean I don't want you." But if we're not being intimate, then what is it? And since he won't consider counseling, I'm not sure there's progress to be made. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your husband is way off track and in a world of his own right now since he is not considering your feelings. Sportync is right. The comments you made would lead us to believe that he is obssesed with this. I wonder why he wouldn't consider counseling? That is not a good sign. I really do hope the best for you. Send him to single male land!
	__________________ M&M Melts in your mouth, not in your hand

10-03-2002, 10:05 AM	#10 (permalink)
ciscosv Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 755 Location: Redford, Michigan Status: Married Couple	Oops. I hate it when I do that. I did not mean for that last sentence to sound like I said to seperate/divorce your husband. I would never tell anymarried couple that for it is not my decision. What I menat was that he is a single male without his wife and could be a little burdensome on him. Hope that clears it all up.
	__________________ M&M Melts in your mouth, not in your hand

10-03-2002, 02:09 PM	#11 (permalink)
*JustAskJulie* Your Hostess Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 29,288 Location: In my House Status: Female Swing Lifestyle Name:swingersboard	I held off on posting to this topic yesterday waiting to see if the original poster came back and answered some of the questions asked. To me it sounds like this guy really doesn't care. He has already put swinging above your relationship so his priorities are definately not with you. His unwillingness to see a counselor only emphasizes that fact. Obviously he doesn't see a problem or he feels that the only problem is that you won't swing (again showing that his priorities are screwed up). I agree with those that say that in this case Swinging can be the straw that breaks the camels back. You guys need to find a way to resolve the other issues in your marriage before swinging is even discussed again.
	__________________ Julie - your hostess The Swinger Manual - all the info from the Swingers Board in one convenient book

10-04-2002, 11:52 PM	#12 (permalink)
Randy624 Active Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 13 Location: United States	Hi I am new to this, so if I offend anyone, I appologize. I have read your post and all the replies. Where I lack in experience, I do understand what you're going through and how you feel. I have to agree with everyone else in that; your husband has his priorities all out of control. My wife and I have had arguments about swinging as well and I have always told her that if she didn't like it anymore, then we would quit. Since we have only been with 2 other couples, I don't have much experience to fall back on. But I have seen a lot of things tear apart a marriage to say the least. I can only say that you should keep trying to work things out with your husband. Sooner or later he will hopefully snap out of it and see just how much he is hurting you. None of what he is doing to you is your fault. I hope that everything works out for the best. Take care and I wish you well, good luck...
	__________________ "Every moment in time is special. But it is even more special when you share it with someone you Love."

10-05-2002, 05:52 AM	#13 (permalink)
babydragon Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 102 Location: U.K Status: couple	I have to agree with everything thats been posted on here to you. If your hubby spends most of his time looking for playmates for "you both" and cant or wont see the pain he is causing by this, then you have to make serious choices. You dont say that much about his attitude but what you have said would cause most couples to feel that something is deffinately wrong somewhere. Maybe the answers are already there you just need some prodding to go for it and some sort of reassurance that your not being over zealous (which you are not). Could you both try to find a little time without the internet on or something else doing on to maybe talk throught these problems, giving you both time to state what you feel is the matter? Most swinging couple before they even set out on this road set rules or limits to what is exceptiable to both parties did you do this? and if you did has someone stepped passed that limit? all these things need to be addressed before you can move on and rebuild that love you once shared and still do, it's just prolly underneath all the luggage your both trying to handle atm. Sorry if anything I have said is out of line but I hope somewhere in my bad typing, spelling you might find something that helps.
	__________________ Always try things three times: 1st time to try it out. 2nd time to see if it's better. 3rd time just to recap 1st and 2nd.

10-09-2002, 12:34 PM	#14 (permalink)
coolwetbreeze Here to Stay Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 58 Location: Texas Status: female of the couple	Dortress...It's time to quit worrying about your husbands feelings and concentrate on your own...You don't enjoy swinging and you don't want to do it...Plain and simple. Then don't! He is trying to manipulate you into doing what he wants by the woe is me comments he's been making...You need to stop being so angry at him and yourself and realize that you are the most important thing right now 'cause he isn't thinking with the right head...STICK TO YOUR GUNS!! Let him know that you aren't interested ,period. Then don't even discuss it with him again. When he realizes you aren't kidding he will then wake up and hopefully start thinking with the right head. Concentrate on what you really want and that is the intimacy you had before. Your husband doesn't even realize that he is in the f*** mode. He thinks all he has to do is be there, insert and off he goes...He needs to realize that you need more...the fore play, the intimacy, the romance that you used to get before all the swinging took over...ok...I've rambled on enough. I agree with the other post that said you should have him read this...he will most likely get angry but oh well...it will do him good to hear from other people how selfish and unloving he is being.

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10-10-2002, 01:13 AM	#15 (permalink)
AnonDude Active Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 10 Location: North Carolina	I don't want to offend anyone here but I am going to play devil's advocate. It seems to me that this forum is in a feeding frenzy on your husband and all we have is information from your perspective. I have been around long enough to know that there are always two sides to every story and usually there is merit in the spoken argument of each side. You made statements in your post that lead me to believe you have issues with yourself, be it looks, general self view - whatever. That you suffered sexual abuse as a child would lead me to believe this even more. I was married for 10 years to a woman who had been sexually abused from the age of 4 until the age she left home. Put simply, she had no self-esteem or self-worth and nothing was ever her fault. No sense of responsibility or culpability for her own actions. I don't know how this abuse has affected you, only you are in a position to know that. What I would venture to say is that you are in a marriage with someone you must care about, or you wouldn't have married him and as such you have a responsibility to him - as much as he has a responsibility to you. It sounds like the two of you are involved in a lifestyle that he enjoys greatly. It also sounds like much of his love for you was/is predicated on your desire to join him in an alternative lifestyle. If this lifestyle must end I feel he is entitled to an explanation, as much as you are entitled to an explanation why it must continue. Marriage is a two way street. If your reticence to continue the lifestyle is based on self-esteem issues then you need to address these feelings with him and do so with the intent to resolve them - not use them as an excuse. If you enjoyed swinging before then you are a swinger. If you have since developed issues with swinging then it is only fair to yourself, your husband and your marriage to address these feelings and find resolution. If the underlying issues have to do with your looks then you need to overcome that (everyone is beautiful and there are always equals out there), if it is latent abuse issue resurfacing then you may need counseling or at the very least a supportive ear from your lifemate. You need to LIKE yourself and be self confident - if you lack this then you need to get it or regain it. One way I have found with the women I have know is that they need to be told how beautiful they are, or how sexy they are and it means much more coming from someone they love. Let him know you need it - tell him it may sound crazy but you need to hear it and you need to know he means it. I will let you in on a little secret here - men need the same assurance about their virility and manhood as women need about their sexiness and beauty - they're just too damn stubborn and manly to admit it and often they evidence their insecurities by being an asshole. That's why men are assholes more often than women. I'd wager he'll understand your need for re-affirmation more than you think. I have found in relationships that friction filled atmospheres tend to spiral to intolerable levels. He, likely, feels you have vectored off in some inane direction with issues about how unattractive or unworthy you are while you feel he has left you crying in the middle of the street - not caring about your feelings. It seems to me that the truth lies somewhere in between. If you want to save your marriage then you need to accept some of the responsibility about what your relationship is, was and will be. Step up to the plate armed with this new acceptance and prepare to be an equal, not a victim. Understand he has feelings, that this is important to him and also that you want to be with him as a wife, partner, lover and friend - not a ticket into the swing clubs. Don't cry about it. State your point. If he gets upset then take a break and come back to the conversation 5 minutes later, or 10. Continue until you feel you have at least found a starting point towards resolution. Don't go to him crying -impress him with the strength of your resolve. Don't be an asshole even if he is - walk away and come back. Be an adult even if he refuses. Don't speak simply to be right or throw verbal knives - speak to find resolution, the future of your marriage hinges on it and you need to discuss it with the determination that accompanies such matters of importance. Remember - many couples find swinging to be a fantastic thing for them so the act itself is not wrong. It may be wrong for some people but you enjoyed it once so I doubt this is the case for you. It sounds to me like YOU need to think YOU are beautiful and the one you turn to most for that confirmation is showing the evidence of that feeling to other women. Tell him. Tell him if he wants his swing partner back and wants this to be fun for both of you again then by damn - here's what you need! It may not work the first time but keep trying. In the movie "The Mexican" the coolest line wnet something like this: "When you love someone, when is it too much? When is enough, enough?" "Its never too much... its never enough..." Question is: do you love him? The rest is just a hell of a lot of work.

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