Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[CallMeLoki]

Last night was an emotional night. My wife is still "sorting out the junk" as she said above.

Every Monday after she had made the plans but before she went, she'd have very guilty feelings about it all. "I can't do this! I'm a wife and a mother, this is wrong! I need to cancel these plans." We'd talk about it, I'd encourage her, assure her that it's OK with me and it won't hurt us for her to do this, and tell her to think it over another day before she actually canceled. She would, she'd feel disappointed about NOT doing it, and she'd decide that she's going to stick to the plan.

I was VERY careful to encourage without pressuring her. I told her multiple times "You should ONLY do this if it's something you truly WANT to do. Don't do it because you think I want you to do it, don't do it because he wants you to do it...only do this if it's what YOU want to do. I'm happy with whatever decision you make."

Ya know, the things that are a big deal to me are openness, honesty, communication, fairness and consideration, treating each other with love and respect, treating each other like we'd like to be treated, etc. Her going to have sex with someone else with my consent and blessing is just not a big deal to me. (If it were cheating, that WOULD be a very big deal to me, but because of the deceit and trust damage, not so much the sex itself.) So really, her living out this fantasy just doesn't feel like such a huge deal.

Now, one thing I definitely agree with that was mentioned above...I think if we made this a regular thing, there would be risks to "us". I think having regular sexual relationships with other people would make the emotions very difficult to manage. But, this is a one time (or maybe a couple or three time) thing, so again I feel certain that all the emotions are completely manageable for both of us. It'll take a little work I'm sure, but I also think that work will build even more emotional intimacy for us.

Loki

[prettylady]

WOW! what a great story.
I have been away for awhile and it is fun to catch up.
I am so happy you and your wife a doing fine.
The first time Dog and I swung(I think thats right) I too was an emotional mess. I felt guilty, angry, dirty(not in a good way). But after we talked and made love and cuddled, you know all the best things about being a couple, I started to feel better. Every experience afterwards was positive and a WHOLE LOTA FUN!!
But like you, this is a once in awhile thing for Dog and I, and that suits us just fine.
Your friend,
Prettylady

[CallMeLoki]

My wife and I talked about her experience earlier this afternoon, with some details. I'm sure there's more we'll talk about over the next few days or week. She's still working through just feeling comfortable and OK with it all (this was such a huge step for her to take...especially since she went first!) I'll leave it to her to post any details that she wants to post when she's ready. I thanked her for sharing the details with me...that makes me feel "included", ya know?

And some folks have mentioned a concern that we're not "doing this together" like conventional swinging. Well, we ARE doing this together, we are "collaborating" with each other...the only part I wasn't there for was the actual event itself. I want my wife to be my best friend (or one of them), and I want to be her best friend (or one of them). During planning and talking about her encounter, I've had to take off the "hubby" hat and put on the "best friend" hate many times to insure that I'm telling her what I think is best for her and that I have no selfish motivations in anything I'm telling her. I don't doubt at all that she'll do the same hat-switching with me for my turn. I think this is part of being a mature adult in a long term relationship...being able to switch hats and be unselfish when you need to.

Loki

[iapr]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

And some folks have mentioned a concern that we're not "doing this together" like conventional swinging. Well, we ARE doing this together, we are "collaborating" with each other...the only part I wasn't there for was the actual event itself. Loki

As a "conventional swinger" as you put it, this is my main concern and one of the main issues I have had with this whole thing since it's inception. I see your point about sharing details and being part of the process but a tremedous amount of emotional energy and a high emotional cost has been incurred in this whole scenario and I am not sure I am seeing the point to it or the payoff to you as the husband or to both of you as a couple.

At some point Mrs Loki said that it was understood by all that this meeting was going to be "just sex." Well this has not been 'just sex' at any point in this operation. She has spent hours and hours every week with personal discussions with this man. Each of them sharing personal thoughts, feelings, interests etc. An emotional bond WAS formed whether that was the intent or not.

When the time came to seal the deal an entire weekend of explosive sexual and emotional energy was released between just the two of them in a far off hotel room with you sitting home with your own "emotional vortices" wondering what was going on with her.

As far as the emotional cost look at the heartache, anguish and uncertainty that you two have gone through leading up to this moment. Sure it may have been fun and exciting too but look at the overall emotional toll it took on each of you.

Upon Mrs Loki's return, her words were "emotional mess" and other such descriptions. She states crying since leaving the hotel and both of you crying upon her return. Adding all of this up I only have one question -


Why?




Why did you both put yourselves through this emotional rollercoaster? Why did you expend this huge of amount of emotional energy and why strain the emotional fabric of your marriage? I'll admit that the physical safety issue may not have been as much as a risk as some were making it out to be but it was a logical concern nontheless. Then for shits and giggles lets throw in the financial expense. Why did you two put yourselves through all of this for a one-sided encounter with a sexually inexperienced and probably socially inept 22 year old college boy. There are probably hundreds of socially isolated and sexually represed 22 year olds within an hours drive of you that you could pick up at a college library for an afternoon romp. Why all the expense and stress with this one?

What is the payoff to Mr Loki, Mrs Loki and to your marriage as a whole? How have each of you benifited from this experience? I'm not saying all of this to get down on you at all. I am being sincere in my questions. I really want to know. What is the benifit?

I kind of agree with an earlier poster a few pages back, I don't think this is over and I don't think we have seen the end of this yet. This is a facinating case study up to this point but I'd like to continue to hear about it in the days and weeks to come.

[iapr]

My previous post was posing a few questions and I will allow the Loki's to address that as they see fit but here is a point I would like to make and this is coming from a "conventional swinger" (kind of a contradiction of terms in and of itself dontcha think?) that believes in doing things together.

There was a tremendous amount of emotional energy tied up in this whole saga. There were countless hours of cyber-chat, phone calls, background checks. There was a lot of personal and emotional connections being made, a lot of sexual energy and excitement being created and built up. There were financial considerations and travel considerations. And yes there was a element of physical as well as emotional risk. There is also an element of emotional attachment and risk to the young man in question and we have not ever been able to hear his side of this story at all.

The issue that I have with this whole thing is that there was a huge expense of time, emotional energy, sexual energy and actual dollars and cents spent on a 22 year old nerd (I am a 40 year old nerd that never grew out of if so it's ok for me to say that) that only one of them was able to appreciate and enjoy while the other stayed home. Yes there was a certain degree of collaboration and "togetherness" that the Lokis undertook but it no where near matches or compensates for the emotional and other costs that went into this operation.

Lets play 'what if?' What if the amount of time and energy that went into chatting with and getting to know and bonding with a 22 year old college boy went into talking with each other?

What if the Lokis had taken the advice of many experienced and knowledgable veteran swingers on this board and had pursued garden variety swinging encounters together through traditional lifestyle clubs and parties together? What if they had done all of this chatting, flirting, and 'getting to know ya' time and energy together as a couple with other actual lifestylers instead of a sexually inept vanilla boy?

Yes they have had a fun and exciting weekend, but add up the costs and the risks and the emotional toll it has taken on each of them. Then imagine what they would have experienced if they had taken that same amount of time and energy and $ and put it into a more traditional and garden variety swinging pursuits that they could have each enjoyed and experienced together as a couple.

I am not trying to rain on their parade and I am not saying what they did was bad or wrong and if they are happy and it works for them I am happy for them and I honor their rights and decisions as consenting adults. But IMHO I think the risks and costs that most people will incurr in something like this will be nowhere near compensated for in the final outcome. The Lokis have put a ton of homework and energy into this and dotted a lot of i s and crossed a lot of t's but I don't think most people will approach this in such a detailed manner. I think for most people attempting something like this would be reckless and irresponsible.

[mixtupcpl]

For what it's worth, I totally agree with the above. My wife and I are at that point, but we have been through the "open marriage" thing which is why I felt I should advise.

I do think it's a big risk long term. Personally, it seems to me that "conventional swinging" (that really IS funny), offers just AWESOME reward and very reduced risk. People on the same wavelength, part of a community, etc.

For us, just being able to find friends to know who wouldnt view us as "dirty" or "weird" because of the shit we've done (our vanilla friends would be HORRIFIED if they knew), is totally worth it to us.

But for the Loki's, it seems they arent feeling that draw. Im really interested also to know why.

[PB&J]

My concern is all this crying. After a really great playtime, I coo and smile. I've never been inclined to cry. That, to me, would be a BIG clue that something was just not right.

This approach doesn't even seem like a "conventional" open marriage. Why work so hard at being separate in these adventures? Me and the Mr might have some separate fun at some point in the future, but it doesn't require a new 14 Points to make it happen. Loki, why go out cold-bloodedly looking for a woman to complete this from your side? I have got to say, if I was one of these women that you have been discussing, I would feel just slightly used.

Hey, we all enjoy sex. That's why we're here, right? But you're overthinking it tremendously. It doesn't even seem to be about enjoyment. It's like you're taking medicine to accomplish- what?

Obviously this is just my opinion. And the toothpaste is out of the tube. But maybe you should be thinking about the other people in this little scenario a little more.

[arvcpl]

Originally Posted by LokisFemaleHalf

Ok, friends, I am home, sore, exhausted, confused, and an emotional masterpiece, but I did not end up in a crawlspace, and I am safe and sound. More details later after I have been debriefed and submitted to hubby!!!!

I am sincerly glad that you are home and safe.

I was probably the harshest critic of this little adventure and I was also the one that started the discussions of crawlspaces and such. I concede that no physical harm came and I will also admit that millions of sexual encounters take place everyday without any harm so I am glad that your safety was never at risk.

However I do want to address the comments you have made about being an "emotional mess" and all the crying that occured from when you left the hotel and after you returned home. Is your emotional health, safety and wellbeing also not important? We have been swinging for 3 years and have dozens and dozens of encounters and not one has ever resulted in any emotional distress or crying and the first day it does occur we will be heading back to the drawing board in a New York minute!

I said it yesterday and I'll say it again, This is not over! You both have been through a lot and it is going to take more than a night of reclaiming sex and a debreifing conversation to get through all the emotional fallout that is going to occur from this.

I looked back through all the posts leading up to this weekend and many well respected and sharp posters like Chicup, Good Times, iapr and Fun4Ds as well as many others implored you not to do this. This kind of emotional stress and fallout is why they were against this plan. They have all seen people self destruct over this kind of thing and they know people can get the most enjoyment with the least amount of risk and emotional impact and they all tried to steer you down that path but you took the opposite route.

I am not saying this to be a tormentor or to rain on your parade or to say I told you so. You both came on to this board asking for sincere advice and people offered it up to you. You have taken little bits and pieces of that advice buffet-style, only taking the bits and pieces that sounded good to you.

There ARE going to be consequences from this weekend. Some may be negative and some may be positive. How much is positive vs negative is going to depend on how you both handle yourself and how much communication and self-exploration you do in the next few days and weeks.

[LokisFemaleHalf]

Ok folks, here I am.

#1) I cried because one year ago I never thought I would be screwing anyone other than my husband and I did. It was a big step for me. I am ok now. I had to get over it, and I have.

#2) All the effort, time, chats, talking, blah blah is and was a good thing for my marriage. We are closer now than ever. This situation has fostered intimacy and has reborn a close relationship. I have gained a lifetime friend. I am not in love with him, nor do I want to be.

#3) I have to choose my sexual partners carefully. I always have. For me it takes more than a casual meeting or two and then a roll in the hay. I have to connect on an intellectual and friendship level. That is what I did. I am fine with it, and so is my husband. He encouraged this. He condoned it. He left me a wonderful note when I arrived home. He showered me in love. He reclaimed me sexually.

#4) Hubby and I spend a great deal of time making love, seducing each other, talking, and being in love.

#5) A sexual encounter was never the intent when I started talking to this young man. We talked politics, economics, and just clicked. I am fully aware of his age vs. mine, and we do not want to be "together". We turn each other on sexually, we wanted to fuck, and we did. What difference does age make? We also talked, had pillow fights, saw a movie, and laughed lots. It is a friendship. I am in love with my husband. I love my friend. There is a difference.

Any more questions? I will be glad to answer them.

Thanks!!!

[CallMeLoki]

OK, let me try to state this differently: my wife was living out a fantasy for the weekend. She was "being a slut for the weekend", to use her own words. I feel like we've gotten a lot of emotional intimacy with each other out of all the talking we've done over her adventure, and over discussing what our boundaries will be, etc. I'm sure we'll talk just as much about my encounter when it's on the horizon.

And just so you know...we are very considerate people. The young man in question understands that he was essentially a sex toy with a heartbeat, and is totally OK with that. It's not like he didn't get something out of it too. (And whatever lady I end up having an experience with get something out of it too.)

My wife is enjoying her friendship with this person, and I'm fine with that. There *might* be another encounter or two sometime in the future, but we really don't intend to make this a regular thing that we do bi-weekly a month or anything. I think folks may be missing that point.

Loki

[mixtupcpl]

Yikes..

I dont want to cause trouble and I really considered not posting, but I do think you guys sound sort of different on this.

If its working then I'm happy for you and just ignore us, but Sif (MrsLoki?) said "I love my friend" and talked about some really intimate moments.

You said that she wanted the "slut for the weekend" fantasy, that he is a walking dildo, and that its not regular.

I do think you guys are on different pages. Look... My wife was emotionally involved for 2 years with a guy and, while she'd never leave me, it was much more than what swingers typically do and it did create weird drama and its something we plan to never repeat.

What Sif is describing sounds a lot like what we came out of (a true secondary long term relationship) compared to what you are describing (a fantasy fling).

It seems like shades of grey, but one spouse maintaining a loving, close, long term, connected, spiritual friendship that is only "occasionally" physical is pretty much having a secondary relationship. That CAN work (we managed) but it IS tough and a bit odd and quite dangerous in ways I dont think you two realize yet and, MOST importantly, it is something both parties need to fully "get" and digest and agree to.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by iapr

What is the payoff to Mr Loki, Mrs Loki and to your marriage as a whole? How have each of you benifited from this experience? I'm not saying all of this to get down on you at all. I am being sincere in my questions. I really want to know. What is the benifit?

The payoff is this: my wife and I have reached a depth of emotional intimacy with each other that we've never achieved before. It takes a huge amount of trust, openness, and honesty to do something like this. This is a milestone for us.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by mixtupcpl

Yikes..

I dont want to cause trouble and I really considered not posting, but I do think you guys sound sort of different on this.

If its working then I'm happy for you and just ignore us, but Sif (MrsLoki?) said "I love my friend" and talked about some really intimate moments.

You said that she wanted the "slut for the weekend" fantasy, that he is a walking dildo, and that its not regular.

I do think you guys are on different pages. Look... My wife was emotionally involved for 2 years with a guy and, while she'd never leave me, it was much more than what swingers typically do and it did create weird drama and its something we plan to never repeat.

What Sif is describing sounds a lot like what we came out of (a true secondary long term relationship) compared to what you are describing (a fantasy fling).

It seems like shades of grey, but one spouse maintaining a loving, close, long term, connected, spiritual friendship that is only "occasionally" physical is pretty much having a secondary relationship. That CAN work (we managed) but it IS tough and a bit odd and quite dangerous in ways I dont think you two realize yet and, MOST importantly, it is something both parties need to fully "get" and digest and agree to.

Ya know, I realize this isn't a typical swinging situation. I have no concerns over my wife's friendship with this person...the friendship is good for her, and I'm fine with it. They had sex...it was intended to be a one time thing, and I'm fine with that. He may come down here at some point to have a threesome with us...I'd enjoy that. My wife might decide she wants to go do it again...I'm fine with that. I get to do the same things with my wife's blessing. I have close female friends that I have strong connections with...my wife is fine with that. One of them I'd love to lay. My wife is fine with that and has given me her permission.

We are not garden-variety swingers because we don't feel like it fits us well. If we had gone to a swinger party and banged it out with another couple, my wife would have come home crying also...probably moreso than from this experience. She was crying because she felt some shame and guilt...she's never done this before. But she's fine now...we're both fine. Actually, all three of us are fine. We all clearly communicated and understood the deal. Everything is good. She still has the friendship with her friend, and he might very well be a lifelong friend, and that's fine with me.

Loki

[mixtupcpl]

Well as long as its ok with you, thats good Im not trying to fuck with you guys, I just want to give you food for thought. But the kind of thing that makes me nervous with this is, flash forward maybe 8 years from now.

Now your wife is a still smoking hot upper 40s and the "young kid" is actually 30 and has had an 8 year relationship with her that has been physical and emotional for nearly a decade.

There is a 50/50 chance that he will be harboring some serious affection for her. He'll say "oh no! just physical and our awesome friendship!" NOW, but he may very well be clueless.

You just have to be ready for the possibility that once he is an established man (and not a Mrs. Robinson fantasy kid), he may actually try to take her away. As long as you are ok with that chance, then you're ok. It did happen to me and, well, I'm still married, so its possible but it certainly isnt an experience I'd want to deliberately repeat if you see what Im saying (and in retrospect, us just realizing what we really are - swingers - and doing it that way 5 years ago would have been WAY better for both of us)

[fun4Ds]

Originally Posted by arvcpl

I looked back through all the posts leading up to this weekend and many well respected and sharp posters like Chicup, Good Times, iapr and Fun4Ds as well as many others implored you not to do this. This kind of emotional stress and fallout is why they were against this plan. They have all seen people self destruct over this kind of thing and they know people can get the most enjoyment with the least amount of risk and emotional impact and they all tried to steer you down that path but you took the opposite route.

I know for me, I looked at this with doubt. I think mostly because of possible drama at best or a horrible out come at worst. I think talking with my wife Mrs.fun over this she explained something. Loki and Sif were going into this with out past drama, leaving the past in the past for the beginning of a new day. On one hand, we can perhaps never play alone. On the other hand we were courious to learn something from them.

We Have

I am not saying this to be a tormentor or to rain on your parade or to say I told you so. You both came on to this board asking for sincere advice and people offered it up to you. You have taken little bits and pieces of that advice buffet-style, only taking the bits and pieces that sounded good to you.

I have to say, we could never play alone. If we do ever choose to. It would be Loki and Sif we would ask for help with issues we may incounter. Especially emotional ones ! Not people that could speculate all the bad things that could happen. We are grown ups we know what the possibilities are. Personally, I would have been clawing at the freakin walls over the weekend. Loki handeled things pretty well I would think. Sif has maybe some issues to sort out now that seem rather well handled also. Things I dont understand, but Mrs.fun helps me understand from a womans point of view.

There ARE going to be consequences from this weekend.

We all deal with issues from fucking other people. It is what takes our relationship to a new and better level. Even the consequences. Nothing like having a good partner like they are to each other, to work out a bad date.... We have had a few of thoes. We dont see all this through rose colored glasses. We talk, and it looks like Loki and Sif do a pretty good job of it so far.

Some may be negative and some may be positive. How much is positive vs negative is going to depend on how you both handle yourself and how much communication and self-exploration you do in the next few days and weeks.

I think they will do fine. This new friend will just be a friend. I don't think everything needs to be gone over and over and over and over...... I think its lokis turn. If I'm seing this correctly

My only question to Sif is,

Do you feel Loki should play alone as well, or do you feel you want to be there and be part of it ?