Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[mixtupcpl]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

The open marriage idea really forces us to build and maintain complete openness and honesty with each other. I just can't see how that tremendous depth of emotional intimacy won't carry over into the rest of our relationship.
Loki

This part is VERY true. MAYBE even more so than swinging. Not everyone can do this because there is NO safety net here emotionally.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by sweet_tna

"I just wanted to say, good luck, we're all counting on you."

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by mixtupcpl

OK, I think you're real (confession - I havent been fully sure). Or if you're not real, you do understand this situation well from the point of view of someone in it

What do you mean? Do you think this is just some made-up post? Not at all my friend...this is reality and it's happening right now!

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by mixtupcpl

This part is VERY true. MAYBE even more so than swinging. Not everyone can do this because there is NO safety net here emotionally.

My safety net is that I completely trust my wife. Maybe I should post our "Playtime Agreement"?

My wife and I both enjoy sex within the context of a relationship. I don't get much satisfaction out of banging someone I just met (I had two one-night stands in college...the sex wasn't bad or anything, but it definitely wasn't as good as sex with someone that you truly like as a person). I think for both of us sex includes physical and emotional pleasure. I know that's NOT the norm for swinging, but I think it'll be what works for us. I realize that we have to be cautious and guard our own emotions and our relationship.

But, in reality, is there REALLY a safety net in "conventional" swinging? For that matter, is there REALLY a safety net against emotional attachments even if you don't swing? Do you lock yourselves up indoors and never allow your partner to speak to or interact with someone of the opposite sex? Relationships are based on trust, and I think that's true regardless of whether you are swinger, open relationship, non-swinger, etc. So, I don't see this as black-and-white...it's more like a continuum of grey.

To me, it feels good to just let go and let my partner do this. There's nothing more reassuring than setting someone completely free and watching them still stick around...you know they truly WANT to live their life with you and not someone else. And if they don't stick around because they WANT to run off with someone else, would you want them to stay with you anyway? I wouldn't. Would I be hurt if my wife ran off with this 22-yr old? Absolutely, I'd be shocked, I'd feel emotionally crushed, and I'd feel completely stupid for giving her this "gift". I'm sure it would take me quite a while to overcome the hurt, but I would eventually recover and move on. However, I truly believe the probability of her running off with this dude is 0%. Make sense?

Loki

[Chicup]

Let me play devils advocate, its my unofficial job here on the SB.

This is a multifaceted thing you are doing.

You are adding extra-marital sex, with mostly unknown singles, while separated physically, for multiple days.

Its a potentially very volatile mixture.

The big issues for me are not trust, or even safety (though it is an issue) but human nature.

I once read a description of friendship as relating to shared activities, in what you are doing its not shared, except for vicariously, you are not part of this goings on any more than a grandmother hearing about the outcome of the little league game from her grandson across the country. Its not something you can both look back on the same way, good or bad.

Another issue is love. I love my wife, my wife loves me, its a great thing. That doesn't mean I am now immunized from finding a new love or feeling it. I know I'm not. Love is not logical, its emotional and being a biologist, I know that really means its chemical. You don't pick who you love, it happens when the right set of circumstances are met.

So you have someone spending time with others, without you in the mix, in intense circumstances. As pointed out in another post, many of these men will not respect you or your marriage, and some may be interested in having your wife as their own.

I'm not saying your wife will be wooed by someone blatantly trying to get you to leave her, but that nice guy who really listens to her and is so good in bed who just seems so fun to be with who she can't wait to see again and again, well good luck if he starts to feel the same way.

I'm well aware that there are some people who seem to do fine in an open marriage, hot wife, or cuckold type relationship. So I can't say it can't work, I can't say never or always. I can say that I'm always nervous for people trying this.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by mixtupcpl

My wife (then GF) and I did this for a few years. Just some things to see coming and not let screw you up:

1) you're going to want details, but they MAY hurt. It's different then swinging because, in the end, its still a single guy fucking your girl and you're still kind of left out. You can get past it, but it's going to be a masochistic pleasure

2) she's going to outnumber you. Been said before, needs repeating. My wife had like 5 "dates" before it seemed the ink was dry on our "agreement" (figurative - we didnt do anything in writing )

3) you can believe her that she is for real with you (IF she is - only you know), but trust me... MANY of the guys she sees will think that you're a loser, that she isn't getting it from you and that she needs to drop the dead weight and get with THE MAN (them). It may not be the case with this guy (maybe you got lucky) but if you continue open (and not swinging) it WILL happen. I have to say that DAMN this used to piss me off.

4) when a guy would push hard for my wife to leave me (and again, we werent married yet then - just LONG term couple), she would break it off. Your wife NEEDS to do this too.

Thanks for the post. Let me address a few of these...good points.

I don't think we plan to make this a regular thing. We may only do our one encounter each, and leave it at that. Or it might be something we do occasionally, we don't know yet. But, we don't plan to make it a weekly or monthly thing. This a "gift" we are giving to each other for being faithful to each other over the past 12 years. Sounds strange I know, but it's a "you've been good...for once or maybe a couple times, you CAN have your cake and eat it too." With me?

Agreed on your other points. Here's the way I see it in general:
- Men are usually looking for sex.
- Women are usually looking for relationships.

Agreed? If so, that means:

- Woman looking for sex only = easy for her to find
- Man looking for sex only = difficult for him to find
- Man looking for a relationship = easy for him to find
- Woman looking for a relationship = difficult for her to find

Agreed?

Now, my wife is VERY selective (because she can be...she's a gorgeous and enticing woman). She was very selective in picking a person, and I think she made a good choice. He doesn't want to "steal" an older woman with an existing family...he just wants some "training" and a wild weekend. He got it.

For me, I'm kind of a girlie-man...I like relationships with people. I'm quite selective too...for the partner I eventually choose, it'll need to be someone that I have some kind of relationship or friendship with, and someone that I trust to a reasonable degree. I just wouldn't enjoy bonking someone I just met in a bar, for instance...that just really wouldn't do it for me. But, since I'm a "relationship guy", I befriend people easily (women included). It's a matter of just befriending the right woman who is willing and able to make it a "friends with benefits" relationship once. I just have to be VERY careful and insure the woman understands that she's a FWB for a a short time...we won't ever be anything more than that. We'll start of as friends, become FWB's for a time or two, then go back to being friends (or discontinue the friendship altogether if some issue emerges). That would be my plan.

My wife completely understand and respects that fairness is very important to me. That was in our playtime agreement. I have absolutely no doubt that she will help me hook up and have the experience that I want. (With the only expection being having an FMF threesome with our very close female friend...but I respect her boundary on that, and she offered the alternative of just taking her away for a weekend. She said "You can do her, I just don't want to be part of it if it's her. I respect that you may feel differently than me about it, so if she's who you want then you can have her.") Also, my wife has no reservations that she wants me to have a similar experience and will help me accomplish that. If she had any doubts that's what she wanted, then SHE would have decided not to go.

Her biggest concerns all along have been that this weekend would hurt me or hurt us. She gave me countless opportunities to call it off. She would have felt disappointed, but she would have not gone away if I had said "we need to put on the brakes". The last thing she wants to do is damage our relationship...the last thing I want to do is damage our relationship. We are rewarding each for good behavior, and making a choice that would hurt each other would defeat the purpose.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by Chicup

Let me play devils advocate, its my unofficial job here on the SB.

This is a multifaceted thing you are doing.

You are adding extra-marital sex, with mostly unknown singles, while separated physically, for multiple days.

Its a potentially very volatile mixture.

The big issues for me are not trust, or even safety (though it is an issue) but human nature.

I once read a description of friendship as relating to shared activities, in what you are doing its not shared, except for vicariously, you are not part of this goings on any more than a grandmother hearing about the outcome of the little league game from her grandson across the country. Its not something you can both look back on the same way, good or bad.

Another issue is love. I love my wife, my wife loves me, its a great thing. That doesn't mean I am now immunized from finding a new love or feeling it. I know I'm not. Love is not logical, its emotional and being a biologist, I know that really means its chemical. You don't pick who you love, it happens when the right set of circumstances are met.

So you have someone spending time with others, without you in the mix, in intense circumstances. As pointed out in another post, many of these men will not respect you or your marriage, and some may be interested in having your wife as their own.

I'm not saying your wife will be wooed by someone blatantly trying to get you to leave her, but that nice guy who really listens to her and is so good in bed who just seems so fun to be with who she can't wait to see again and again, well good luck if he starts to feel the same way.

I'm well aware that there are some people who seem to do fine in an open marriage, hot wife, or cuckold type relationship. So I can't say it can't work, I can't say never or always. I can say that I'm always nervous for people trying this.

Just to be clear...we're not planning on competing to see how many different people we can lay. This is a one time thing by default...if it's good for both of us and our relationship, we may decide to do it again. I don't plan to find 10 different lovers and neither does my wife. I really should post our agreement! I'll do that next...

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Ahhh...my beloved wife just called me. They went out to see a late movie, talked for a while last night, and went to sleep. She said everything's going fine, everything's still good. I don't think they've banged it out today yet, but I told her to have some more fun while she's still got time.

She whispered in the phone when she got a chance (she didn't want him to hear): "It's good, but no one can hold a candle to you." Got me a little choked up there. (And knowing my wife, she means not just sex, but the whole package, the whole person.) See folks? This is why I'm not worried. She also whispered "On your turn, get someone older." She couldn't tell me any details, but I know she'll tell me all about it when she gets home.

So, I think it's a good experience, maybe just not as mind-blowing for her as I would have hoped? We'll see I guess. I asked her if she was feeling any guilt...she said "No, not yet." I have to make sure that I help her get past any guilt she might feel.

And here's the thing that maybe I haven't made clear: This is the first time in my wife's life that she has ever had sex with someone without being "in love" with them. This is a leap for her in terms of seperating lust from love. This is the first time in her life she's been able to "act like a slut" (her own words). I feel like this is a really good thing for her...it *frees* her from some of her own...um...beliefs? Tendencies? Not sure of the exact right word here.

In fact, I'd have to say that I'm beginning to believe that being able to seperate lust from love is an important skill that every person should learn, preferably when they are young. I think a lot of people mistake lust for love, or convince themselves they are in love with someone simply because they lust for them, etc. I think there'd be a lot less people getting married then divorced if we could learn to seperate those two, and a lot more people having very stable relationships that last a lifetime. Just my opinion though.

Just talking to her for a bit has really settled my emotional roller coaster ride. Now, I'm feeling more turned on about it. I can't wait until she gets home...I'm going to "reclaim" her with conviction!

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Oh, on looking for a partner for me...I just had a thought about my best-friend-who's-a-girl...when I was single (knew her before I knew my wife) and she was dating her now hubby, she used to try to hook me up with women she knew. She introduced me to all her female friends, and always talked me up as someone special (we do think very highly of each other). Most of her female friends tend to be very attractive women. Just a thought here, but perhaps my wife and I should engage her for a little help in pimping me out. LOL. My wife and I agreed to not let any of our friends in on our dirty little secret, but I know she knows other couples who are open or are swingers, and I also know she wouldn't judge us and could keep the secret. (Plus she's VERY observant...she may very well figure out something's going on anyway just from little jokes we've made, comments that slipped out, phone calls she's overheard, etc.) I'll mention this to my wife late next week I think and see what she thinks.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

OK, so here's our playtime agreement that I wrote, my wife reviewed and suggested changes to, and we both signed.

We both agree to the following terms:

1. We understand and agree that these adventures are primarily about expressing our love for each other by giving each other the “gift” of living out some fantasies, having some experiences we’ve never had before, and other similar playtime adventures, whether alone or together. We agree that we like to see each other happy and having fun.

2. We agree to put each other first in terms of insuring that we make each other feel loved first.

3. We agree that keeping us and our family together and happy is the most important thing to both of us, and that we won’t knowingly put ourselves in any situation that might jeopardize that.

4. We agree to put each other first in terms of giving each other whatever it is that the other needs or wants as an adventure or experience, up to our own boundaries.

5. We agree to be unselfish in allowing and helping each other arrange and execute adventures. We agree to not make the other’s adventure “about me”…instead it’s “about you” and/or “about us”. We agree that being unselfish about it will endear us to each other rather than create frustration, guilt, or other issues.

6. We agree to encourage and reassure each other, and deliver assists when needed or requested. We agree to keep the perspective that “it’s just sex”, although we both acknowledge that involves physical and emotional pleasure. We agree to encourage each other to enjoy the physical and emotional pleasure without guilt, but to keep the perspective that it’s just a temporary engagement, enjoy it while it runs it’s course, and only “keep” each other in this regard.

7. We agree to completely trust each other, even in situations where the intentions might not be completely clear or are misunderstood. We agree to trust each other by default, and ask for any explanations that we need in a gentle and loving way.

8. We agree to respect each other’s boundaries. We agree to consider pushing back our own boundaries for the benefit of each other when asked or when it seems necessary to make an adventure happen, but we also agree to ask/discuss it in a gentle and loving way, and not pressure nor coerce each other to push back boundaries that are important to keep.

9. We agree to gently remind each other to be fair when necessary, and we agree to be receptive and listen to one another if or when any fairness issues present themselves. We agree to treat each other the way we’d both like to be treated.

10. We agree to allow each other to make some mistakes, and to assist each other in recovering from any mistakes. We also agree to admit when we think we’ve made a mistake, and ask for help from each other in overcoming that mistake if or when either of us need it. We both agree to accept each other as we are, and forgive any mistake or unintentional bad choice.

11. We agree to never bring up any of our adventures in an argument, nor ever use any adventure as any flavor of “emotional weapon” against each other. These adventures are to lift each other up, not knock each other down.

12. We agree to talk openly and honestly about what we want or need, how we feel, what we think or believe, what concerns we have, etc. We agree to listen to each other and do our best to understand some of the complex emotions the other feels. We agree to answer completely honestly any question the other asks, and to do so in a gentle and loving way. We agree to reward each other for being honest and candid rather than “punishing” each other. We agree to not hide anything from each other that we think is relevant, important, or that we think the other would want to know or should know.

13. We agree to work out any unexpected problems or issues between us around these adventures in a gentle and loving way. This is for each other and us, we are giving each other freedom to enjoy playtime, and we agree that this act is an expression of unselfish love for each other.

14. We agree to talk about some planned or considered adventure as much as needed to reassure the other.

15. We agree to help each other overcome any guilt or similar feelings either of us might have before or after an adventure.

16. We agree to be honest and candid about any unexpected emotions that might erupt toward any other parties involved in an adventure, and we agree to help each other work through any unexpected emotions in a gentle, loving, and unselfish way.

17. We agree to clearly communicate our intentions if we will be in a social setting that might lead to some unplanned playtime, whether alone or together. We agree to let each other know that one of us is about to engage in some playtime if at all possible. If not possible, we agree to let each other know what transpired as soon as feasible.

18. We agree that either of us can call a “stop” to any activity that might be in progress in any situation, and we agree to honor each other’s request, even if we’re not together. We agree to discuss the situation in a kind and loving way to determine what caused the discomfort as soon as it’s feasible to do so. We agree to keep our concerns just between the two of us in a situation where one of us has called a stop.

19. We agree that we don’t know yet if this will be a one time thing for each of us, or something we might do periodically. We agree that we’ll talk about it all before and after any adventure and decide as we go whether it’s something we want to just enjoy once, or something we want to do from time-to-time as the opportunity presents itself.

20. We agree to take the emotional intimacy this helps create for us, and apply it to other areas of our relationship.

How's that?

Loki

[sweet_tna]

Originally Posted by Chicup

Glad someone gets it . . .

And Loki, for what it's worth, I like that agreement. It shows how much you two love each other and how much thought you've given this.

=)

[mixtupcpl]

LOL! You guys penned the Magna Carta!

Seriously though, it sounds like your heads are in a good place and I think you will pull through this fine. My wife and I did and it was under much worse circumstances.

I still think that with your level of maturity and the bond you guys have, you would be really successful at connecting with another couple, but thats a totally personal decision and if this is right for you guys then thats great.

I think everyone here who has thrown up caution flags only did so because these folks actually read, think and care about what people ask (which is amazing about this site)

I like your "one time" idea. That completely changes the dynamic.

I also totally relate to your feeling of "reclaiming" her. That was big for me as well.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

Oh, on looking for a partner for me...I just had a thought about my best-friend-who's-a-girl...when I was single (knew her before I knew my wife) and she was dating her now hubby, she used to try to hook me up with women she knew...perhaps my wife and I should engage her for a little help in pimping me out....

Ya know, my mind is just spinning because this has been such an emotional rollercoaster weekend!

So, another thought here...this could be a really good idea or a really bad idea. What if she said "Well, I'm game!" It's quite fun to muse about having a threesome with her and my wife, or even to muse about taking her away for an erotic weekend, now that I think about it. But...I'm not sure I'd want to make that a reality. We're life-long friends, our kids are growing up together, we all lean on each other when we need to...man, that's really not something I'd want to mess up. And I know if she offered, I'd find it awefully hard to resist...especially since I already have permission from my wife to do her if the opportunity presents itself.

I have to admit I've waffled on this thought quite a bit lately in thinking about my turn. The woman in question is simultaneously the best candidate (because of the mutual friendships) and the worst candidate (because of the mutual friendships). I last told my wife that I won't actively pursue this person...but if she ever decides to jump my bones, I ain't gonna say "no" either. My wife agreed. I don't think she would decide to just throw me down and go at it, so this seems like a "safe" mindset for me, I think.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

I hope my wife is getting laid again right about now. I hope she's got her cyber-BF tied up right now and is torturing and teasing him with her sexy body and mind!

So, on the "one time" thing, yes that does change the dynamic quite a bit. Now, what we were originally shooting for was a MFM threesome for her and a FMF threesome for me. That morphed into a weekend away for her, and she has offered the same thing back to me. For one thing, she wasn't sure if she could even perform in front of me, and her cyber-BF was quite nervous about that thought as well. So, her week alone with him could lead to an MFM with the three of us, which I'm definitely game for. But, I'll leave that to her...I only want her to do something she's totally comfortable with. And I think I'd know how I would feel in an MFM, but I don't know for sure. So, the one time each could lead to threesomes for both of us, which is a pretty cool idea. That's kind of the goal, but we're still going to start slow and proceed carefully.

I think the good thing about the weekend away was that I'm much less likely to call a "stop". Which is good...I wouldn't want her to feel disappointed because I unexpectedly got uncomfortable and needed the action to cease.

So, I'm wondering for me if the same would be true? She's seen me humping and being humped by a stripper, for instance, and she was completely turned on by it. But that's just some erotic play, actually having sex with another woman in front of her might feel much more intense to her.

So, I'm trying to figure if me doing a weekend away would be a good way to start. I know my wife would surely have some of the same intense emotions I have ahd, but I haven't felt uncomfortable enough to grab the cel and call "stop", and I actually doubt that she would either. Hmmm...so maybe the weekend away (you know it's happening but you're not there seeing it, so it's not *quite* as real because it's not right in front of your face) would actually be a good way for me to start? Maybe a weekend away would then lead to an FMF including my wife, similar to our intentions for her? Thoughts?

For me to do a weekend away, it would HAVE to be someone I really, really like as a person AND someone I find at least *sexy enough*, which narrows the candidates down even more. I would be much less selective I *think* for an FMF, because my wife would be there and part of the action...so all the emotions I could possibly want are right there with me...the "like" is already covered via her. (Yeah, I kinda like my wife if you haven't gathered that yet. ) Does that make any sense?

Anyway, on one hand I'm kinda not sure I'd want to put my wife through a weekend of intense emotions while I'm off doing someone else. But then, the emotions weren't bad emotions...they were just swirling, mutating, and...well...intense. I've felt excitement, nervousness, happiness (for her having a great experience), arousal, a little fear ("Oh shit, what have I done!"), just a tad of short-lived jealousy, antsy-ness, contentment (in that this is good for her and us, in my belief...I expect she'll come home with quite a boost in self-confidence), proudness of her (for having the balls to actually do this AND be the first one of us to go...I know that was hard for her, it would have been hard for me), a little worry (have I influenced her to do something that will leave her with guilt? I sure hope not!), etc. It's a swirling vortex of emotions, but that doesn't mean it was bad...just intense. So maybe it would be good for her to experience this?

Loki

[mixtupcpl]

RE: the hookup with a close platonic friend...

I wouldnt do it, personally. Been in that situation as well and, while we came close, ultimately decided to walk away from that.

It's so tempting for the reasons you point out, but it will change things almost inevitably.

I had two single platonic friends who did this and it was a mess both during and then afterward. The friendship isnt worth that risk. Focus on the waitress

On the topic of your encounter...

My wife and I are a LOT like you and your wife (too bad you're in NC). She can't be in the same room with me which is why our pref would be full swap, but separate rooms and only with a couple we had established trust with. She couldnt really cut loose with me there and, while she really wants me to fuck another woman, she isnt 100% sure she wants to actually see it (but she REALLY wants to hear about it).

As for whether your wife would be more or less comfortable in the room or with you on a weekend away, I say just let her make the call on that. You guys have established great communication and a ton of trust.

Personally, I would lean towards the FMF. You made some great points in an earlier post about how men and women are different. Taking some girl away for a long weekend can be maybe even MORE sticky than the wife doing it once the girl has fully bought into it. Who knows what's going through her head really. At least with FMF you'll essentially be seeking out a single to add to a swing scenario. Hard to do, but everyone is more likely to be on the same page.

BTW - did you say WEEK alone??? Is that a typo or is she actually away for a full week and not just a weekend?