Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[CallMeLoki]

Hey folks:

Thanks for the thoughts!

She's at her destination right now, and her partner for the weekend should have arrived by now. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't already banging it out at this very moment!

I have to admit, this is emotionally intense for me...probably the biggest intensity being to watch her drive away knowing what she's going to do! But, they aren't bad emotions (very little jealousy on my part because I truly WANT her to get some good things out of this...plus, the eroticness of what she's going to do completely overwhelms any jealousy for me anyway).

I expect there will be some emotions to deal with when she returns...probably the biggest being feelings of guilt on her part. But, I've assured her over and over that I'm good with this, I get to do it too when the opportunity presents itself, and that I want her to enjoy herself guilt-free. I approve of her and of what she's doing, and I just have to remember to make it clear to her...I did before she left and I have to remember to do the same when she gets back. I DO approve of her, I just have to remember to make sure I let her know that and make it obvious.

We did a written "Playtime Agreement" a couple days ago outlining our purpose, boundaries, how we should treat each other in regards to this, etc. That was good, it brought to light a point we hadn't thought about. We negotiated that one point (which was mainly just talking about what we meant and what we wanted for ourselves and each other), changed the wording to match what we both meant and agreed to, then printed it and signed it. It felt good for us to work through something so bizarre in a calm and loving way. And not surprisingly, the gist of the agreement was "treat each other the way we'd like to be treated", "we plan to stay together no matter how much extra fun we have", "we're giving each other freedom as an act of unselfish love and exaltation for each other". I feel totally comfortable with everything we agreed to, and she does too. And it's just obvious from reading the agreement that we have each other's hearts, ya know?

Us getting to the level of emotionally intimacy that we can talk about things like this and allow each other freedom like this I think really speaks well of our relationship with each other. Yeah, maybe this is an odd way to build emotional intimacy with your partner, but what the hell...if it works, use it, right?

Cheers,
Loki

[fun4Ds]

Thats cool you thought of us here on the board. I cant imagine how many of us are wishing the best for both of you this weekend. I wouldnt have guessed the written agreement, but your dang right. If that works it works.

We will all be in and out this weekend so post your thoughts. Hope you get a call everything is great on Mrs.lokis part.

How are you progressing with your pursueing of possible female playmates ?

And just what the hell are you up to this weekend any ways ?

[bbarnsworth]

I'm with fun4Ds. What the hell are you doing this weekend? Hey, we're both in Indiana, Wanna make a road trip?

Seriously, keep us posted as the weekend progresses. Like, little updates on how you're feeling, what you're thinking, doing, what you're heard from your wife, etc. Sort of an ongoing blog kind of. It'd be an interesting read.

[CallMeLoki]

Wow! Another emotionally intense moment. I had called her earlier this morning before her guest arrived to just tell her one last time "Take advantage of this, and enjoy it with absolutely no guilt". She called back about 4 hours later. Sounded happy but excited and nervous. We had agreed she'll give me all the details when she gets home and none while she's there...but I just couldn't sit here in suspense this whole weekend. I asked if her guest arrived, she said "yes". I said "Did y'all do it yet?" She said "Yes" with a nervous laugh. I said "Was it good?" She said "Yes" with another nervous laugh. With my own nervious laughs, I said "Good! I'm glad it was good. Now go do it some more." I'm not going to call her again...I don't want to interrupt anything. If she wants to talk to me, I'll let her call me.

Again lots of swirling emotions for me...not bad emotions, all good ones actually, maybe a few that are kind of neutral. But it's still intense...emotionally intense! I'm sure she'll feel this way when I go off for my own adventure.

Plans this weekend? I'm not looking to get a "strange lay" this weekend...I already have enough emotional intensity, and I'd rather just let myself feel my emotions around her and her experience instead of clouding them with any experience for me. Someone offered a sleepover for our daughter, so I'll take advantage of that...probably go have a few drinks or something, but definitely not looking to hook up with anyone this weekend. This weekend is about my wife...I want to keep it that way. When, it's my time, we'll make it all about me. (That was part of our "Playtime agreement" by the way...to insure that we make each other's experience "about them" rather than "about me"...in other words, both of us need to be totally unselfish about it.)

Loki

[Chicup]

Well I can't say I can relate, or that for most couples that this would be a good idea.

Luckily what I say doesn't matter, if its working for you and makes you both happy then its good.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by fun4Ds

How are you progressing with your pursueing of possible female playmates ?

Oh, I didn't answer this part of the question. Well, I'm a reasonably attractive man, so I don't think it'll be impossible to find a lady willing to do me.

One target has been a waitress that I could just eat the panties right off of (she was an exotic dancer for a short while too...she's a smokin' hot young lady with a great personality)...my wife has said she's hot enough that she might enjoy doing a threesome with her. For me, an FMF threesome is the fantasy I'd really like to live out (although I can definitely say that a whole 3-day weekend away alone with someone I like is sounding more appealing the more I think about it). However, I don't think we're going to be able to engage that waitress in any naughtiness...she has a BF and it seems that she is trying to be really "good" for him right now (in fact, I gather he's why she left the strip club to become a waitress even though she was clearing $1K/night at the club...I sense some resentment building in her...maybe she'd say "OK" if we just ask? I dunno.) We've invited her to come have some drinks with us after work and do some hot-tubbing with us...she's said "I'd love to", but she hasn't taken us up on any offers to hang out a bit yet. She just started cosmetology school and is now working nights at the restaurant, so I'm thinking she's probably feeling too tired for a whole lot of fun. I haven't written her off, but that doesn't look too likely to me, unfortunately. As far as the BF, I see it as her decision if she wants to engage in some naughtiness with us...she's responsible for managing her relationship with her BF, not us. (Isn't that the same for everyone?) I can tell she thinks I'm hot too, but she just won't let herself get close enough to feel tempted, I think.

Now, one of my best friends who's a girl (also one of my wife's friends) made a joke not too long ago about having a threesome with us. Needless to say, my heart skipped a couple beats...she's a gorgeous Italian woman, we've been teasing each other for years now, etc. I think she was mostly joking, but then I know she's a little curious about playing with another woman, so there might have been just a little bit of seriousness in her joke. Anyway, my wife and I talked about it, but my wife has said that she just wouldn't do a threesome with this person because she's just too close to us (wouldn't even watch). So, that sort of *blocks* any threesome possibility on that front, even though there *might* be some interest from her. (However, my wife did give me permission to take her away for a weekend, or take advantage of the situation if an opportunity emerges with her.) I have to consider that she's such a close and dear friend that I really wouldn't want to risk damaging our friendship, it wouldn't be worth losing a lifelong friend over a little carnal gratification. However, if she decided she wanted to jump my bones one night, I'm damned sure not going to stop her. Now, she's also married to one of our other friends, but ya know in thinking about it...her hubby has asked me for permission to sleep with my wife (I laughed and said "OK, you have my permission, but you'd have to convince her, not me." )...he didn't hesitate to go ask my wife if she'd sleep with him, and she of course told him "no". (He's a really handsome fellow, but the poor guy is just so blindlessly self-centered that no one wants to bonk him, not even his wife.) So, I don't think I'd actually feel guilty about asking this woman if she wanted to bang it out with me, given he's propositioned my wife. Would I feel guilty if we actually did bang it out? Ya know, I'm not actually sure...if he hasn't cheated on his wife, it's only because he hasn't had the opportunity, and obviously NOT because he doesn't have the intention! (And she doesn't know this either. And I can't tell her...if her and I did ever engage in any naughtiness, I would feel like I had used this info as leverage, and I really wouldn't want to do that. If she decides to throw me down, I'd want it to be because she finds me irresistible, not because she's trying to get even...is that being too idealistic? Is a "grudge fuck" still good sex? LOL) In thinking about it, I do think this woman is emotionally mature enough to manage her emotions and see it as just some shenanigans that we decided to engage in once (or twice ).

I have a divorced co-worker who's an attractive woman...but....she really just doesn't turn me on, not exactly sure why. Plus, we're going to be working on the same team...I don't know how well she could manage her emotions, so that might get awkward. Definitely not a good choice, I think.

I don't think I really have any other possible "candidates" at this point. But hey, the night is still young!

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Just had a call from my wife. Whew...another swirl of intense emotions. (Still good emotions...just intense.) They've banged it out 3-4 times today. I told her that the suspense is just killing me (I'm one of those people who'd rather just know everything than be kept in the dark, ya know?), so I had to ask...but I still definitely honor her wish to deliver all the juicy details later.

I'm glad she called...I know that she's safe (that was really my biggest concern), but her call confirms it for me. And I'm missing her...especially knowing she's off bonking someone else repeatedly! Anyway, they're going out for a while...probably some drinks, then more sex. I still feel good for her that she's getting a thrill, and I'm glad that she's not disappointed in the experience, and glad that she doesn't seem to be feeling guilty about any of it. I just cannot wait to hear all the details when she gets home.

The phone calls are short (unusual for her!), but I'd imagine she doesn't want to talk in front of her guest. I'm sure it's all still quite surreal for her...it's certainly still quite surreal for me.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Ya know, I'm really glad my wife called me earlier, without any prompting from me. I'm committed to not calling her so I disturb or distract any fun...but I have to admit I think I would be feeling "left out' in some sense if she hadn't called me.

Another thing...I'm not nearly as turned on by this as I expected to be. I think it's because I'm kinda still in the dark until she gets back. I know they've had sex multiple times, and I know at least the first time was good for my wife, but I don't know if the other times were good too (I'd assume they were if the first time was good), I don't know how many times they've banged it out now, and I don't know any of the details. I hope she isn't shy about sharing all the details when she gets home...I just cannot wait to hear it all. I think hearing the details will get me just immensely turned on.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Before my wife left for her weekend encounter, she asked me "how did we get here?" I was thinking about her question...if I recall correctly, here's how we got where we are:

1) My wife encouraged me to go enjoy some time at a strip bar. I did...she was completely turned on by it.

2) We started to fantasize about all sorts of things...I told her my biggest fantasy was an FMF threesome...I also discovered that I'd be (or think I'd be) totally turned on by an MFM threesome as well.

3) I am a stickler for fairness, so I wanted her to enjoy some erotic fun too, similar to some of my strip bar shenanigans. She wasn't interested in male strippers, so I encouraged her to engage in erotic chat/cybersex. She did and grew to enjoy it. We made plenty of jokes and comments about him coming down for a visit and a threesome.

3) As expected, her cyber-lover asked if he could come down for a visit and do the deed in person with my wife.

4) My wife didn't tell him no, she talked to me about his request instead. I realized that maybe she actually wanted to do this for real. At the time, I was assuming the thing in consideration was an MFM threesome. I thought it all over and said "OK, if this is something you want to do, then let's do it. I don't want to pressure you or anything of the sort...if you truly WANT to do it, then let's do it!"

5) We talked about boundaries. I suggested three possibilities...we could keep any interaction with him to just erotic play only (ie. at least one of them leaves their clothes on...the equivalent of a lap-dance, etc.), or we could say anything is OK except intercourse (ie. keep something sacred for just us), or we could allow anything and everything, except just use condom's (since I ride bareback thanks to my vasectomy, I could view using condoms as a "boundary"). My wife said "If we're going to do this, I want the whole enchilada". So be it...I thought it over and said "OK, condoms is the only boundary....as long as you allow me the same privilege." She said OK.

5) My wife and her cyber-BF talked about it all a bit. My wife said "He's young and inexperienced...we might need some alone time before he'd feel comfortable having another man in the mix, especially an experienced one." I thought this over carefully...she was asking to play alone. I didn't want her to miss what might be a great experience because I was unwilling to allow some alone time, so I pushed back my boundary on this and said "OK, you can have some alone time first to get it all warmed up".

6) My wife and I continued to talk about this. Then I realized that by "alone time" first she probably meant the first encounter alone, not just 30 minutes or so alone! Holy shit! This one I really had to think over for a while. We talked about it...my wife said "I'm think what I want is more of an open marriage than to be swingers". I thought that all over. I'm stuck on fairness, remember? As long as it's OK for both of us, I'm game for giving it a try, although I think we need to both have our first encounters and then do a "checkpoint" to make sure neither one of us feels like we are damaging our relationship. We talked about this and agreed to it. We've agreed this might be a one time thing for each of us, or it might be something we do occasionally...we don't know yet.

7) Her cyber-BF is young, recent college-grad, and will soon find a job, find a girlfriend, get married, etc., etc., etc. I told my wife one night "Ya know, if this is something that you truly want to do, then you should pick a date and just do it. The opportunity will eventually slip away, and I don't want you to feel disappointed if this is something you truly want to do." She booked a room that night.

8) We talked and talked and talked...every Monday she would feel guilt-laden and say "This is wrong! I can't do this." I would tell her that I just can't see how it's morally wrong if there's no deceit, betrayal, etc. She'd think it over and feel better. Now, here we are...she's having what I hope is the most erotic time she's had in a long time. She gave me opportunity after opportunity to call it off, but I didn't...I wanted her to have all the good things I think this experience will bring to her.

Loki

[fun4Ds]

I woke this morning hoping everything was going O.K. for you Loki. You are a great man enduring such a thing for your partner. I cant help thinking that Sif is experiencing something that most women could only dream of in a fantasy. Last night Mrs.fun, along with a friend and I, were talking and hoping everything goes well. You both are experiencing something we could never do. No one can say what direction this will go from this point on. I certainly have a feeling that you both will be going in the same direction together.

Like you, we don't need the details today. Just knowing Sif is O.k. works for us. Mrs.fun was telling me how she might be feeling in the same situation. We agreed, no one will have the exact same experience. Like I say, in some ways we envy you both. Its not like either of you are telling us we should try things your way, we are wrong, or even missed something along the way. We all take different paths in this life.

We are having a pretty slow weekend. A few AFL-CIO events today. For now, sex is pretty much out of the question for us. So following your thoughts are just like visiting with some friends. Before we went on our break from swinging we did take advantage of a couple of last adventures. We met a new single guy for a night of play and then another night of fun with a close Bi female companion. Mrs.fun has given me permission to play with our single female playmate, and friend of ours, here at the house. But for now, I am more worried about my wife than having sex. They were actually teasing me last night.... I love their bad girl attitude. But I have to say, a good heart felt hug feels great also.

Who am I kidding....Honestly, the thought of Sif having fun is also very erotic rite now......

Stay in touch.... We are thinking of you both

[CallMeLoki]

Ya know, a thought occurred to me Thursday after my wife had left for her weekend but before she had gotten to her hotel. My wife knows that I truly love her, and I know that she truly loves me, and that this weekend is "just sex" (although we both realize and acknowledge that there will be some intense emotions along with it, I've told her that I want her to enjoy those emotions as much as the physical part of it). Anyway, she left with the expectation that the sex might not be that good...he's inexperienced (thus her being his "teacher") and had only had sex 8 times in his life so far, and all with the same girlfriend (of course, I'd imagine he's already exceeded that 8 times with my wife so far this weekend). So, her going with the expectation that the sex might not be that good is definitely the right attitude...that way, she won't be disappointed and might be pleasantly surprised (and was pleasantly surprised, I gather).

Anyway, one of the thoughts I had was "how will I feel if he's a better lover than I am?" In thinking about that, again I have to put her first, and I said "I actually hope he is...I want her to get maximum enjoyment out of this". But after she left, the thought occurred to me that if he isn't as good as me, that will make her feel glad that her hubby is a good lover. If he is better than me, I feel like that will still endear her to me because I've given her this "gift" of a weekend away alone. So, I realized that I really don't need to feel any insecurities about it even if he is a better lover than me...she'll still feel endeared to me either way. That said, I'm glad her first was good and I hope it all has been good. Of course, I hope it's good for her partner too (and I can't see how it wouldn't be), but he's secondary...this is really "for her" in my mind.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by fun4Ds

I woke this morning hoping everything was going O.K. for you Loki. You are a great man enduring such a thing for your partner. I cant help thinking that Sif is experiencing something that most women could only dream of in a fantasy.

Yes, everything is OK with me. I get a very occasional pang of jealousy, but it's really not any intense jealousy...I handle that emotion really well anyway, I think...I'm just not a very jealous person. My thoughts that I really want this to be a good experience for her (before, during, AND after) really supercedes and nullifies any jealousy. I guess that's absolute love for your partner, isn't it? Putting their feelings first.

And, I feel very secure in our relationship. Her lover for this weekend is a 22 year old recent college grad who doesn't even have a job yet. My wife and I have a 12 year marriage and a young daughter. No matter how good the sex is, it's just not like my wife is going to decide to leave me for this young man. I know that, and she knows that. That would be one of the most ridiculous decisions she could possibly make in her life...if she were even capable of making such a bad decision, I wouldn't even want her to stay with me! But she's not capable of making such a decision. (And even if she were just so overcome with emotions that she decided to do just that, she would quickly come to her senses and go "WTF have I done? I'm making the worst decision of my life! I need to turn myself around right now!") She's a smart and mature woman, and she knows that we have a good life together (we have rough spots, but what couple doesn't?). So, I feel very secure about her and I, and I'm just not worried about any emotional aftermath. I'm more worried that she'll feel guilt about her weekend than I am anything else. So, if you guys have any ideas about how I can help her get past any feelings of guilt, please post!

I still get butterflies in my stomach periodically...but it's all good. Also, I'm sure when my wife gets home she'll probably be quite motivated to help me find a partner for me. And I'll take the help! I think it's quite difficult for a married man to proposition another lady...I'll just appear to be a cheating hubby. However, I'd tend to think my wife helping me proposition another lady (or hell, even pimpin' me out!) would be much more effective...don't you think? It seems most of the FMF threesomes that I've read about have come about with a friend of the wife where the chemistry was right for all parties, and not someone the hubby pursued.

Of course, I don't intend to start planning my adventure the minute she gets in the door or anything. I want to hear all the details of her weekend, I want us to spend some time reveling in her adventure, and I want to give her time to let her emotions settle. We'll work on my turn in due time, I'm not in any big hurry or anything.

Loki

[sweet_tna]

I've been following this thread for a bit, too. I've found myself intrigued by your unconventional approach to the lifestyle and the other board members' reactions. Fascinating stuff on that level alone.

I have no experience on which to base any advice, so I've kept my mouth shut. All I can say that Mr. Sweet and I have found ourselves in un-chartered territory, only to discover that you've got to do what works for YOU.

In that vein, I've been thinking of ya'll and hoping all goes well. So . . .

"I just wanted to say, good luck, we're all counting on you."

=)

[mixtupcpl]

OK, I think you're real (confession - I havent been fully sure). Or if you're not real, you do understand this situation well from the point of view of someone in it

So first, you're handling this very well. Kudos on that!

I've been where you are actually. It was harder for me because it was earlier in our relationship and, while I did believe her that she wouldnt leave (and didnt), I was young (still 20s) and its just not something easy to handle at that age.

My wife (then GF) and I did this for a few years. Just some things to see coming and not let screw you up:

1) you're going to want details, but they MAY hurt. It's different then swinging because, in the end, its still a single guy fucking your girl and you're still kind of left out. You can get past it, but it's going to be a masochistic pleasure

2) she's going to outnumber you. Been said before, needs repeating. My wife had like 5 "dates" before it seemed the ink was dry on our "agreement" (figurative - we didnt do anything in writing )

3) you can believe her that she is for real with you (IF she is - only you know), but trust me... MANY of the guys she sees will think that you're a loser, that she isn't getting it from you and that she needs to drop the dead weight and get with THE MAN (them). It may not be the case with this guy (maybe you got lucky) but if you continue open (and not swinging) it WILL happen. I have to say that DAMN this used to piss me off.

4) when a guy would push hard for my wife to leave me (and again, we werent married yet then - just LONG term couple), she would break it off. Your wife NEEDS to do this too.

One area where I think you guys are in a far better spot than we were is you are already a secure couple and you're an established guy. When my wife and I were living this LS, we were just mid-20s, new careers, no kids. The guys after her were mid 30s well established, etc. So there WERE times I thought "Oh Fuck - maybe she WILL leave". One guy in particular had me VERY worried because, being honest, he exceeded me in every area, but she stayed (and actually, ended up really disliking that guy)

Thats all I got on this. PM me if you want to talk more man. I'm not sure how many people have really traveled this road (or can), EVEN on a board like this (which is ironic), so I feel we need to stick together.

For us, it only made us stronger and now (in our upper 30's) are ready to full swap swing (if we can just get past our individual insecurities)

[CallMeLoki]

I'm a lucky fellow. I'm the only man that I personally know who never has to complain about not getting sex or not getting good sex from my wife. I'm the only one I know...seriously. And on this note...she's just so good in bed, it's a shame to NOT share her.

My wife and I's sex life has always been good. Even in times when we weren't getting along all that well, we still had a good sex life. In fact, I think that's helped us get through some of our tough times, actually. We've turned up the heat and made our sex life even better over the past year or two. We've both dropped a lot of inhibitions. We've both allowed each other more and more freedom. I'm actually quite surprised that we've taken it this far...I would have never in a million years imagined that we'd be doing anything like this! But, it kinda seems like it has been a natural progression to me. I've been as gentle and loving as I know how to be in helping her drop inhibitions and overcome insecurities...I think she realizes that, and I'm sure it just makes her love me even more for who I truly am as a person.

Anyway, I hope that what we're doing now (the "open marriage" part) will have the effect of making our own sex life even better than it already was. That's what I expect to happen, given what we've seen so far. The open marriage idea really forces us to build and maintain complete openness and honesty with each other. I just can't see how that tremendous depth of emotional intimacy won't carry over into the rest of our relationship. So, I feel like this is a good thing for us. If we discover somewhere in the future that it's not a good thing for us, we'll stop. We both put our relationship with each other first.

Loki