Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[rpu3]

Originally Posted by slevin

Some other great posts regarding both this latest situation and our/your reaction to it. My own personal concern with this is that you've, yet again, seemed to have said thanks then moved on to defending either yourself or Sif. No one here is attacking you at all and there is no adversarial situation going on. I'm concerned that you're doing nothing more than working through your own thought process and not actually taking much of the thoughtful information and advice into consideration. You don't need to defend yourselves to us at all, our posts are something to think about and consider for both of you.

Rather than just either defend or discount what folks are saying, take a step back and actually give all these comments some serious thought. Far more comments here through your whole experience have been spot on than you give credit for.

I know I've commented before as to how many good opinion, questions and advice you have discounted or outright ignored, including comments, opinions and questions from the very few of us who are in open marriages.

Please, please, please... go back the the beginning and read what you've written and what people have responded with, especially those that you've just ignored because it didn't fit with your world view, and those you've reacted strongly to.

There is, and has been, much "wrong" with your approaches and subsequent outcomes, and I say that as someone who is in a nice open arrangement (to date).

Nobody is perfect, no one is immune to mistakes, but some of the problems and mistakes are just of such a high magnitude that it's hard to look at this thread and call it healthy self-expression, much less call it a healthy open marriage. All I can hope is this thread serves as a warning to others on one hand, and that it doesn't have to be the norm, either. There are some healthy open marriages out there. This isn't one of them. At least not now.

Please go back and read where you've come from, and where you are, and who you reacted to, and most importantly, ignored, in this thread.

[LokisFemaleHalf]

Started replying, but it just became too overwhelming. I have lots to say, but saying it here is not the proper format. Thanks for all your advice, all the slamming, and all the aplogizing for slamming. (I am not mad, btw, I do appreciate differing opinions. It is what intelligent people do!!) I am not a swinger, never will be. But I appreciate all your advice and concerns. I will probably not be coming back to this board, not because I don't want to heed your advice, but there is so much more I need to do to work on myself and raising my daughter than worrying about who did what right or wrong to whom. There are so many things that I could say about this from my point of view, but in all honesty, that would cause more harm that good, so what is the point? All of you have given great advice and been as fair and honest as you could given the facts you have.

Godspeed and Peace
-SIF

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by ANGEDKY(mr)

...
You find a friend you want to bed, your wife disagrees yet you insist she is the one you want. Where is the respect for her opinion? Why not just drop it and look elsewhere. It took the friend's "Soft no" to get you to move on--does that seem like it's right to you??? NOT ME
...

I'm not sure what friend you are referring to, but my wife encouraged me completely with two women that I've pursued so far. I was so over-sensitive to her opinions on the one close friend that it took her a while to convince me that she really was OK with that choice even though it was not someone she'd prefer. I wouldn't have asked that friend if my wife hadn't encouraged me or had shown any uncertainty about it. My wife stretched for me because I stretched for her...that part made me feel quite good about her and our marriage.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by slevin

Some other great posts regarding both this latest situation and our/your reaction to it. My own personal concern with this is that you've, yet again, seemed to have said thanks then moved on to defending either yourself or Sif. No one here is attacking you at all and there is no adversarial situation going on. I'm concerned that you're doing nothing more than working through your own thought process and not actually taking much of the thoughtful information and advice into consideration. You don't need to defend yourselves to us at all, our posts are something to think about and consider for both of you.

Rather than just either defend or discount what folks are saying, take a step back and actually give all these comments some serious thought. Far more comments here through your whole experience have been spot on than you give credit for.

Thanks man, I definitely am! And yes, there are quite a few things you guys have called correctly. I definitely acknowledge that.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by fun4Ds

I have to ask.

How do you both feel about the possibilities that might have happened had you been swinging together or at least, visiting the club together ?

What are each of your thoughts on this ?

Good question. His opinion: I'm hip to the idea of going to meet and greets, hanging out to get to know people, watching, etc. I don't think I'd want to actually play in a club though.

One of my likely mistakes that I can see: I didn't function as a "gate-keeper" very well. The original goal with this fellow was to have an MFM threesome. Sif agreed that was appealing to her. He was hesitant. The idea was put on the table of "let us have some alone time together and then he may be comfortable enough to try an MFM". My mistake was saying "OK". They've had alone time for two weekends now, and still no threesome or anything that included me. (Again though, Sif has given me free reign to go do my own thing.)

If I had been properly functioning as a gate-keeper, I would have said "No, let's have a threesome first, then if I feel comfortable I'll allow alone time." Ya know, I just feel like a selfish jerk putting it that way though...I want Sif to get what she needs and wants out of this. It's a very difficult choice.

I have sort of "called a stop" for myself though. I've been putting a lot of effort into searching for a playmate for myself. I'm putting that on hold until I have my head straight and I feel like Sif and I are OK. So, don't think your advice goes unheeded...some of it I act on, some I absorb and keep in case I need it. Your posts aren't being wasted.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by rpu3

Please, please, please... go back the the beginning and read what you've written and what people have responded with, especially those that you've just ignored because it didn't fit with your world view, and those you've reacted strongly to.
...
Nobody is perfect, no one is immune to mistakes, but some of the problems and mistakes are just of such a high magnitude that it's hard to look at this thread and call it healthy self-expression, much less call it a healthy open marriage...

Please go back and read where you've come from, and where you are, and who you reacted to, and most importantly, ignored, in this thread.

This is great advice. I will do exactly that, RPU. Thanks.

Loki

[BiloxiCouple]

I'll repeat myself. Not a slam. The effort is no longer worth it.

Originally Posted by BiloxiCouple

It seems you will justify to do whatever you want to do.

We give advice for one thing you agree and then try to justify it another way. And the story keeps going and going and going.....

If I heard this conversation in person, I would have walked away from it.

I give up.

Have a nice life.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by LokisFemaleHalf

...I am not a swinger, never will be.

I guess it depends on definitions here...Sif had extramarrital recreational sex. She's either a swinger or a cheater. She had my permission and blessing, so she's not a cheater. Doesn't that make her a "swinger", even though it's not the normal "lifestyle" approach? If I do the same, doesn't that make me a "swinger"?

Loki

[slevin]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

I guess it depends on definitions here...Sif had extramarrital recreational sex. She's either a swinger or a cheater. She had my permission and blessing, so she's not a cheater. Doesn't that make her a "swinger", even though it's not the normal "lifestyle" approach? If I do the same, doesn't that make me a "swinger"?

Doesn't matter what you call it. Katrina doesn't consider herself (or us) to be a swinger, but we have fun going to the swinger clubs and have a great time meeting other couples to play with. We just go with what we like, make sure that we're having fun (both of us having fun and doing things we are both happy and comfortable with) and we don't worry about what that makes us.

What is more important to us is that we are both feeling happy, comfortable, respected and loved. Both feeling like we are in a place where if we were ever to be even slightly uncomfortable the other would freely and gladly stop what was going on, even if they were enjoying it.

It's the basis that has made what we've done successful even when things didn't go the way we wanted them to.

I'm curious to hear what you think after you've re-read this thread now.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by slevin

What is more important to us is that we are both feeling happy, comfortable, respected and loved. Both feeling like we are in a place where if we were ever to be even slightly uncomfortable the other would freely and gladly stop what was going on, even if they were enjoying it.

Absolutely agreed.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

On re-reading some of this thread (back to where we started off), there's one thing that is clear to me:

I've made decisions that were designed to make Sif happy first, RATHER THAN making decisions that protected our relationship first. Is that my main mistake here?

Loki

[slevin]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

On re-reading some of this thread (back to where we started off), there's one thing that is clear to me:

I've made decisions that were designed to make Sif happy first, RATHER THAN making decisions that protected our relationship first. Is that my main mistake here?

Not sure you can distill it down to one thing that made the difference between things going great and you having struggles. To be totally honest, I get the impression that the biggest issue for you both is that you are looking out for what is best for Sif and Sif is looking out for what is best for Sif. Not going to make me any more popular with Sif who has taken a very victim mentality about her participation here with her recent reply, but it is how it seems.

It's ok for you to be looking out for what makes Sif happy, for that to work she has to be looking out for what makes you happy and from the one sided summary of your weekend (and other descriptions of your situation throughout the thread) she's been focused on herself and her happiness. Also, you've been focused on her happiness perhaps to the detriment of your own comfort level and happiness. That should never happen.

Overall though, it's been a number of small issues: letting the single guys comfort level dictate your actions, let rules be stretched with no pause or reflection as a couple before doing so and both of you focusing on what will make Sif happy.

Let me tell a quick couple of stories about an experience that Katrina and I had to illustrate a bit about what I mean when I talk about being in this together, not sure if I talked about this already here or not, if I did, I apologize for repeating myself lol. I find it easier to make my point with examples.

We played with a couple and we were having a great time. We had discussed doing a full-swap with them and we were both up for it when we discussed it. During the actual playtime I got a twinge of a feeling that I just wasn't up for the full-swap. Not sure why I got that feeling, but it was there and as Katrina and the other guy were moving to have sex I just sat up from what I was doing and said I wasn't comfortable with that tonight. Katrina had no problem with it and the other guy was cool about it. We all went back to what we were doing and finished having fun for the night. When we left and went home Katrina never gave me a hard time about it and actually took some time to make sure I was ok with everything that did happen etc.

Another time we met a couple and I was totally into the girl. She was hot, flirtatious and totally into me as well. I was really psyched about playing with them and looking forward to the next time we'd get to meet them so we could all play. Katrina seemed to be into the guy, though they didn't have as much chemistry as the girl and I had. As we were driving home she said she was attracted to him, but that something just didn't feel right and she didn't want to play with them. Not a question from me about it at all, didn't try to change her mind, didn't try to talk her into it and although I was bummed since I had such a great connection with the girl that was the end of it.

When the female half of a couple we were playing with expressed to Katrina privately that she wanted the two of them to meet up privately to play alone Katrina called me right away and that was the end of our playtimes with them. She was attracted to this girl, loved playing with them as a couple, we loved hanging out with them in normal social situations as well, but we only play as a couple. Rather than letting her desires dictate how we played, we cut off playing with a couple we really liked because it didn't fit with the way we wanted to play.

Even when things were against how we individually wanted things to go, both of us looked out for our relationship first and what the other was comfortable with.

All of that is looking backwards for you though. That is useful to a degree, but too much stewing over what happened isn't healthy. It's useful to help learn from mistakes but you also need to work out where to go from here. Stopping the play activities is important until your head is clear. Is Sif willing and happy to stop her playtime with her young friend? Is she willing to stop communicating with him at all and focus on just the two of you for a while? Is she willing to find a different guy to join you who is more knowledgeable about playing with couples?

Do you know what YOU want from all of this? Specifically? Does she know what she wants from this specifically? Is she able to be honest with both herself and you in expressing her desires?

[ANGEDKY(mr)]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

I'm not sure what friend you are referring to, but my wife encouraged me completely with two women that I've pursued so far. I was so over-sensitive to her opinions on the one close friend that it took her a while to convince me that she really was OK with that choice even though it was not someone she'd prefer. I wouldn't have asked that friend if my wife hadn't encouraged me or had shown any uncertainty about it. My wife stretched for me because I stretched for her...that part made me feel quite good about her and our marriage.
Loki

Originally Posted by LokisFemaleHalf

Ok. The only threesome I would participate in is one with a more casual choice than BD is making. He is choosing to pursue one of our best friends, someone we share life with, the kids play, etc. I am not comfortable playing with this friend. If she is his choice, I back him 100%. I would rather it not be his choice, but now it is his turn, and I am going to support him. Now, if it was the hot waitress at the italian joint, or a less than close friend, I could play above the waist and give him his threesome. But it aint gonna happen with his choice, and I am not one who is bi or bi-curious. He sent me away for three days with someone I adore. The least I can do is return the favor...Hell, we are breaking out of the monogamous mold..What else do ya want?

This friend....

The bold-underscore represents her passive version of "No" and the bold segments represent her taking one for the team! Which leads into my comment about communication.

This is version of life happens to be played in the deep end of the pool, several of us here are telling you we can see the two of you struggling to tread water and yet you want to buy the Olympic sized 50m version.....and then you insult our intelligence by arguing how or why or when you could make it work


Based on your follow up posts--Enjoy your pain



I'll be with Billy having a beer

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by slevin

Do you know what YOU want from all of this? Specifically? Does she know what she wants from this specifically? Is she able to be honest with both herself and you in expressing her desires?

Yes. Per the original thread 23 pages ago, the thing I was after was a threesome with my wife and another lady, AND to continue to heat up our sex life between the two of us. I just wanted to live out that fantasy one time in my life. It morphed from having a pair of threesomes as a gift to each other to having an open relationship that is on-going. I do need to think over some more how this happened...I make mistakes like anyone else, and I do try to learn from my mistakes. Sometimes they just have to be made to "get it" though, ya know?

Loki

[slevin]

Ok. So if you know what you want then you know where to start to make it happen. Of course, I think you and Sif do need to take that time to reconnect and get back on the same page again. Once you're both feeling reconnected and you have had a chance to reflect on the success and issues that you've gone through then you can get back to exploring. This time though, lead things towards that it is that you want; taking into consideration what she wants and is comfortable with as well.

Also, something for you to think about is what does Sif want. Is she excited about what you want? Or is she considering doing it because she feels she has to? Have you tried to make your fantasy her fantasy? Some food for thought anyway.