Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

...Even if the two of you are perfectly happy in this relationship, even if both of you find no problems with each other or work or anything else, even if you remain perfect saints to each other, this can STILL blow up in your face.
...

I'm listening to your concerns...substantiate, please. In what possible ways could this blow up in my face if her and I have no issues and we keep it descrete from everyone else? I can do whatever I choose in my personal life...that's none of my employer's business. If I choose to do it with a friend from work, that's none of my employer's business.

Loki

[Alura]

You're right of course, Bbarnsworth. There are many possible problems.

I have trouble chastising someone for "...getting his honey where he gets his money" because that's exactly where Mrs. Alura and I found each other. We worked for the same company but in different divisions. In fact, I was a vice president and she was a retail store manager. Although i didn't directly supervise her, I was "up the corporate ladder."

I broke three rules I had lived by for years the first evening I had dinner with Laura. They were:

1. Never have sex with a company employee,

2. Never have sex with a married woman, (Although divorce was planned in the next weeks and her husband was to return to America alone, she was still legally married.) and,

3. Avoid younger women; they're immature and dangerous.

I've never been sorry.

Mr. Alura

[slevin]

Is it impossible to meet women you don't already know and who aren't connected to you and your wife? Is it impossible to create a connection with those women the same way you have with the women you already know?

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by slevin

Is it impossible to meet women you don't already know and who aren't connected to you and your wife? Is it impossible to create a connection with those women the same way you have with the women you already know?

No, of course not! Most women I meet tend to like me quite a bit. I seem to befriend women quite easily. But that happens IN PERSON and NOT in the bar scene where everyone has their "game on"...that's the challenge for me.

I've been periodically searching/emailing ladies from sites like Swing Lifestyle, AFF, Fling.com, etc. But, believe it or not...a lot of those women come across as "cheating wives"...(say it isn't so, right? ) I had an email conversation last week with a lady from Swing Lifestyle who was a "swinger" who swings alone and requires complete descretion, apparently even from her hubby. But she's a "swinger" so she should be OK, right? Not the impression I got.

Overall, I haven't gotten much response from most of the online hook-up sites...which is to be expected, I'm competing against all the men who want to get laid.

Loki

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

I'm listening to your concerns...substantiate, please. In what possible ways could this blow up in my face if her and I have no issues and we keep it descrete from everyone else? I can do whatever I choose in my personal life...that's none of my employer's business. If I choose to do it with a friend from work, that's none of my employer's business.

Loki

YOUR stance on whether it's your personal life and whether it should have an effect on your job is beside the point. Employers have a habit of butting their heads in where they don't belong. Plenty of people have lost jobs because their employers found out they engaged in less than 'normal' behaviors out side of their jobs. It really doesn't matter what YOU think of the activity. It most emphatically does matter what THEY think.

Continuing this by respond to something Alura said...

Originally Posted by Alura

You're right of course, Bbarnsworth. There are many possible problems.

I have trouble chastising someone for "...getting his honey where he gets his money" because that's exactly where Mrs. Alura and I found each other.

Having a sexual affair with someone when your employer knows you are married (and even more so with children) is considerably different than two single people at a company dating. In fact, it's radically different.

All one has to do to see the difference is to see the hate and derision heaped upon swingers by the vanilla world, the attempts at shutting down clubs (see Current Swingers in the News - The Swingers Board for just a small sampling of some of that) and more.

Two single people dating is 'normal' and 'natural'. Two people screwing each other when one is married with children at home is very fertile ground for gossip. All it takes is a single screw up, or someone suspecting something, and you could be toast (and her too).

Can you guarantee nobody would ever see the two of you in public together? Can you guarantee people at work would never see a certain chemistry between you two, a smile, a gesture? Etc..etc...etc...

Maybe you like risking your job for this. Not me. I guess that's the difference.

[slevin]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

No, of course not! Most women I meet tend to like me quite a bit. I seem to befriend women quite easily. But that happens IN PERSON and NOT in the bar scene where everyone has their "game on"...that's the challenge for me.

I've been periodically searching/emailing ladies from sites like Swing Lifestyle, AFF, Fling.com, etc. But, believe it or not...a lot of those women come across as "cheating wives"...(say it isn't so, right? ) I had an email conversation last week with a lady from Swing Lifestyle who was a "swinger" who swings alone and requires complete descretion, apparently even from her hubby. But she's a "swinger" so she should be OK, right? Not the impression I got.

Overall, I haven't gotten much response from most of the online hook-up sites...which is to be expected, I'm competing against all the men who want to get laid.

Loki

Totally! There is a lot to think about here eh? It's amazing to me that any of us have time to even work when we're first getting started with swinging lol, fortunately it starts to get easier (it did for us anyway)

A few different topics you covered there so I hope my responses don't get too disjointed!

First of all, I hate the bar scene too; it's just not my thing and I don't have fun in that kind of scene. There is absolutely no reason why you need to meet women in that kind of environment. Would you be surprised if I told you it's actually a more difficult to meet and pickup women? During the day at a place like Starbucks is actually a lot easier; there is no loud music making talking difficult, there are no other guys walking around hitting on women, women aren't expecting to be hit on so they generally don't have their guard up, no one is drunk (or at least I hope not) and for most people they're more comfortable and relaxed during the day which makes interacting with women easier. You say that women connect with you quickly and easily, that is a damn wicked place to start

Online is tough for a married guy looking for a single woman; the girls that don't just assume you are a cheater are going to be fairly slim, all those single girls are getting inundated with email from men, women and couples and the married women looking for play on their own...well there isn't as much of that going on. Not a great spot for you, far better possibilities out at Starbucks. Definitely don't put up with cheaters, whether it's a guy or a girl. We've been contacted by some 'single' women that were hot and totally our type of girl. As soon as they came clean that they were cheating that was the end for us, no more contact at all. We're not interested in that.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

Can you guarantee nobody would ever see the two of you in public together? Can you guarantee people at work would never see a certain chemistry between you two, a smile, a gesture? Etc..etc...etc...

Nope, can't guarantee any of it. Guess what? There's 350K+ employees at this company spread over most of the planet...nobody gives a shit who fucks who as long as the work gets done and no one is sexually harrassed.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

Two single people dating is 'normal' and 'natural'. Two people screwing each other when one is married with children at home is very fertile ground for gossip. All it takes is a single screw up, or someone suspecting something, and you could be toast (and her too).

OK, let me ask this: this woman has very much a "swinger mentality". (And she's probably not registered on one of the swinger sites either because she hasn't thought of it or doesn't need to be.) So, how about if I ask her to sign up on Swing Lifestyle, and her and I pretend we hooked up there? That should make it OK, since it was done through "the lifestyle", right?

Dude, I have the feeling that if I popped up and said I'd found a hot lay on Swing Lifestyle and had known her well for 20 years and had even done a background check on her and everything was ligit, that you would still find something to shoot down. Knock yourself out, it's becoming entertaining. When I'm fired for fucking a co-worker, I'll just go join Sif in her crawlspace (you know, the one where she was stuffed after being murdered by her cyber-BF ).

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by slevin

Online is tough for a married guy looking for a single woman; the girls that don't just assume you are a cheater are going to be fairly slim, all those single girls are getting inundated with email from men, women and couples and the married women looking for play on their own...well there isn't as much of that going on. Not a great spot for you, far better possibilities out at Starbucks. Definitely don't put up with cheaters, whether it's a guy or a girl. We've been contacted by some 'single' women that were hot and totally our type of girl. As soon as they came clean that they were cheating that was the end for us, no more contact at all. We're not interested in that.

Yes, it seems to be! I'm starting to wonder if I just have to pretend to be a cheater or single to get any responses. I'm not a cheater and I wouldn't want to deal with a cheater (and just for the record, the married female best friend that I approached earlier isn't a cheater either...just in case anyone needed to be clarified on that).

A coffee shop sounds like a good idea. Maybe bookstores too. Actually, how about both in the same place. Where else do women hang out? Hmm...

I enjoy taking my daughter to kids' birthday parties, I'm usually the only dad there. I've met one divorcee through my 1st grader (and she's a hottie)...but I think my wife would kill me if I hit her up! "Oh shit, what if she tells the other parents? "

Loki

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

No, of course not! Most women I meet tend to like me quite a bit. I seem to befriend women quite easily.

That being the case, you shouldn't have any problems finding other women than this co-worker of yours for what you intend.

What happened to the waitress?

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

OK, let me ask this: this woman has very much a "swinger mentality". (And she's probably not registered on one of the swinger sites either because she hasn't thought of it or doesn't need to be.) So, how about if I ask her to sign up on Swing Lifestyle, and her and I pretend we hooked up there? That should make it OK right, since it was done through "the lifestyle"?

No, since the corporate execs who would find a reason to fire you wouldn't care how you met her. The fact of the matter is that you would be having a sexual affair with another employee when you're married with a child at home. That would be plenty enough motivation for many companies to toss you on the sidewalk.

Companies in this country don't need a reason to fire you. Giving them a reason to fire you is just asking for trouble.

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

Dude, I have the feeling that if I popped up and said I'd found a hot lay on Swing Lifestyle and had known her well for 20 years and had even done a background check on her and everything was ligit, that you would still find something to shoot down.

Absolutely not. I'd pop a cork, and toast your success. You think I'm against people having sex outside their marriage? Why do you think I'm on this board then, and have made over 200 posts, because I'm against swinging?

You know the reason people are posting comments not in support of what you're doing? Because in as much as we can care about someone over the net whom we've never met, plus their families, we care about you and your family and don't want to see you screw up. We aren't out to get you, we aren't out to stop you from having sex outside your marriage or anything the like. We just see a significant number of behaviors or planned behaviors that are highly risky.

Swinging with someone from your workplace is one of the biggest no-nos you can do. And no, it's not the same as finding your wife at your workplace. But, you seem bent on ignoring that advice. Oh well.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

What happened to the waitress?

Good and fair question. I saw her at dinner the other night, and she probably spent 20 minutes or so just talking to me. Both me, my wife, and us both have invited her to come have some drinks, hang out, hot tub with us, go out with us, whatever, several times. There's some attraction there, and she likes my wife too (I really think she'd be threesome material ), but she has a live-in boyfriend (which makes her not a good choice anyway...I don't know anything about him, he could show up with a shotgun one day from just finding our cel phone numbers for that matter). I gather that she's keeping a safe distance because she's probably figured out that we might be up to some mischief...that's respectable, she's being "good" for her BF, I can't find any fault with that. She has both our cel phone numbers, so she knows where to find us if she wants us.

I did suggest that Sif ask her if she might come take some erotic pictures of the both of us (of course hoping she'd get turned on enough that she couldn't help but join us ), but I don't think Sif ever did.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by bbarnsworth

Absolutely not. I'd pop a cork, and toast your success. You think I'm against people having sex outside their marriage? Why do you think I'm on this board then, and have made over 200 posts, because I'm against swinging?

You know the reason people are posting comments not in support of what you're doing? Because in as much as we can care about someone over the net whom we've never met, plus their families, we care about you and your family and don't want to see you screw up. We aren't out to get you, we aren't out to stop you from having sex outside your marriage or anything the like. We just see a significant number of behaviors or planned behaviors that are highly risky.

OK, fair enough. I retract my sarcastic comment.

Yes, Sif and I both understand that there is risk involved in what we're doing. And actually, I guess you could say I'm trading one risk for others, actually. For instance, I've no doubt that neither this co-worker nor the female best friend that I previously talked to have any STD's. (And if they did, they are both the kind of people who would tell me before anything transpired.) So, there's zero risk there. (And actually if I had to choose between losing my job and catching an STD, I'd rather to lose my job.) You can't say that about someone you met 2 weeks ago on a hookup site or a swinger party, now can you?

So, any way that you have sex with someone outside of your marriage is going to involve risks. We are considering the risks and making the choices that fit us best. Sorry, I know you don't agree with our approach, but we're doing this the way that we believe fits us best.

And no, I obviously don't think you are against people having extramarital sex. I think you are against anyone having extramarital sex differently from how you do it. You are entitled to your opinions and personal choices, and I respect that. However, when I read all the problems on this site that "conventional swingers" have had, I really have to question if the rules are as effective as you'd like to think they are. And maybe they are effective FOR YOU and YOUR WIFE, but that obviously doesn't mean they are just as effective for everyone else, as evidenced by this site. To some extent, you just have to find what works for you. That's what Sif and I are doing.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Hey folks:

I thought I'd post an update, since it's been a bit. The co-worker and I did talk just a bit about possibly hooking up. Sif chatted with her a bit and gave her PTF (permission to fuck ). The work thing doesn't concern her either...the thing that's off-limits for her is the fact that I'm married, one of her hard and fast rules regardless of the situation. Apparently, she had some really bad experience with her hubby once...he encouraged her to experiment with another guy (as I gather), then went nuts and almost killed the guy. I gather it was quite a traumatic experience for her, as I can certainly imagine. Jeez. Given the 3-4 times I was around him when they were married, I can actually believe that. So, her answer is "no" because I have a wife. But, she did come back and ask me a few questions. We are both at a conference in Vegas in two weeks...so if she changes her mind while we're in Vegas, I'm game. If she doesn't, that's fine too.

I've been going out the past few weekends, hitting some of the bars, being a little extra flirty anywhere I go during the day, etc. I've met a few ladies who might be possibilities. One chick in a bar was telling me about how she might dump her boyfriend, I told her I was married but in an open relationship, she said "Oh, cool!"...then asked me if I would be at the same bar the next night. Regardless, I've made a few new acquaintances and come home with one phone number so far (although I don't know if the phone number giver is open to my kind of arrangement...I'll ask and see what she says).

I also made it back to the nicer strip bar in town. There was a stripper there who told me she was married but both open, and looking for a playmate for herself earlier in the year. She had given me her phone number before, but Sif had gotten a little miffed at me over me giving her our phone number (this was before we had actually concretely decided to do any of this in reality rather than just fantasizing), so I threw her number away. Saw her last night, and just asked her if she was still looking for a playmate...she said "yes I am" and gave me her phone number again. She's a very cute woman...I'll definitely be calling her.

I also ended up with another stripper sitting in my lap and talking for quite a while. Stripper #2 is very intelligent and well-spoken, gives a hot as hell lap dance, single, is working on a master's degree, and her and I have another couple of connection points as well (we both have a schizophrenic family member!) Funny...stripper #1 came to see me after she finished in the champagne lounge while stripper #2 was sitting in my lap, and they fought over me just a little...stripper #1 asked her to get out of my lap, and stripper #2 said no, and they actually exchanged a few snotty words with each other. Damn...I don't recall ever having two women fight over me before. Needless to say, I also came home with stripper #2's email address. She said she isn't open to my kind of arrangement, but she answers so very quickly that it seems like a pre-thought pre-planned response to me...we agreed to be "friends". I could see her changing her mind, who knows. She did sit in my lap and talk for quite a while with no pay, and she did give me her email address.

I have to say, I'm actually having quite a blast with the whole chase/pursuit part of this experience. Sif, in all her awesomeness as my lovely wife, is just allowing me to go out and act single with her full permission. (Thank you, Sif!) I have to admit, I'm one lucky bastard! Of course, she's a lucky woman too though...her cyber-BF is coming here next weekend, I'm giving them more alone time, and we'll try a threesome with her BF if he's feeling comfortable with it (a lot of which I think is up to me...the comfort level, I mean). I have to admit, I'm enjoying our hedonistic choices right now.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

I thought I'd post another update. The stripper who's looking for a playmate and I have a lunch date just to talk today. (She lives in the same area...about 10 minutes away or so). She's married with a child also, so her and I need to talk about boundaries, etc. I make it a point to treat women like ladies, so I'm picking her up and taking her to lunch somewhere nice. I gather her schedule is very booked up for the next month or two between work, school, holidays, and her family, so we'll see how this all pans out.

There's a lady I've been talking to that I met from one of the legitimate dating sites (not a "hook-up" site). She's divorced with teenage kids. We've talked on the phone several times, and seem to have quite a bit of chemistry, at least personality-wise...can't stop laughing when we're on the phone, actually. I've told her my deal...in an open marriage. She's also confessed that she's mainly looking for a "friend with benefits", and she's totally hip to sharing an open-married guy, doesn't bother her at all (in fact, she said "This is cool..I get the good stuff without having to pick up your dirty underwear"...LOL...great sense of humor!) She sure seems to be quite open sexually...she gave her ex-husband a threesome with another lady once as a surprise! I'm liking this lady. She sent me some pics that weren't great quality (scanned)...but she looks like quite an attractive woman, and her personality certainly is attractive. Her and I are meeting for some drinks somewhere tonight just to meet face-to-face. (She's about 20 - 30 minutes away or so, but that's still an easy drive to get together.) If that goes well, we have a tentative date Saturday night.

Sif's young boyfriend is coming to stay with us this weekend (which is cool, first time I'll have met him face-to-face). Sif and he will have some alone time while I'm taking our daughter to an event with some other parents/friends, then our daughter is headed for a sleepover while the three of us are heading to a quite heavy small concert Fri night (and I'm hoping there will be quite a few gothic hotties wandering around ). Then, the three of us have a "date" Sat night (our daughter has another sleepover...darn!), and the new friend I'm meeting for drinks tonight might be joining us (or her and I might go off alone for a while and then meet-up with my wife and her boyfriend later). Who knows, my new friend might decide to pack an overnight bag...we'll see. "Honey, I think the neighbors are swingers."

I think it could be quite comical to have all four of us at dinner together. I just imagine a jaw-droppingly funny introduction now..."Hi, this is my wife, this is my girlfriend, and this is my wife's boyfriend." This all feels so strange to me, but I'm certainly having fun with it. What the hell? Life is short, right?

Then...I'm heading off to a conference in Vegas Sun...and I'll try to get into as much mischief there as I possibly can.

Loki