Emotional & logistical problems of an open marriage

[slevin]

Very glad to see that you've been thinking about some of the points that people have brought up here. For a while there it seemed like you were asking questions wanting to hear an answer and justify things to any answer that didn't conform to that. Great to see you thinking about things regardless of what direction you choose to go with in the end.

One last thought I had regarding all of this (admittedly a little late in the conversation lol), but if you fucked her behind his back (whether she tells him or not) then he can use that against her in a divorce. He may have cheated on her before as well, but if she does the same then at the very least they are on the same footing in the divorce. Right now if she wanted a divorce she would be in a great position to get the kids, child support, alimony etc. If she cheats a lot of that would go out the window.

She might not be seeking a divorce right now, but if he really is a dick and she really isnt in love anymore then it's the best solution for all of them (including the kids, even if they never see him). Also, she might find him seeking a divorce if he found out his wife cheated on him. Many men (especially selfish men) just can't deal with their wife cheating on them. As some have said it can drive a normally calm man to violence, but it can also (more frequently) drive someone to seek a divorce. Another thing to think about, especially given how much you care about her.

I have lots of thoughts on the other stuff thats come up since I last posted, but there has been many other great comments on those subjects so I'll refrain lol.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by Alura

I see an opportunity for y'all to sow positive Karma with your friend and her husband. It would require Mrs. Loki to reassess her lack of attraction to the husband, but the two of you could sincerely befriend both of them in an attempt to help improve their marriage through example and a personal caring attitude. Your wife may find him a lot better friend than she had thought. In any case, you'd smile (so would Mother Earth and Father Sky) on the experience with pride and know that you had helped them to a better marriage rather than having driven a bigger wedge into it. If failure is unavoidable, at least you'd have tried to do the right thing.

Thanks. Yeah, I do believe what goes around comes around.

We have tried to advise both of them countless times over the years. She listens and usually at least tries. For him, it goes in one ear and right out the other, doesn't even register. I dunno...maybe you're right? Maybe we haven't tried hard enough. Come to think of it, my wife is more sympathetic to him than most of the rest of us are. Being the caring person that she is, she's the first one to pipe up and say "Well, he can't help how he is...it's a function of how he grew up." And she is right about the "how he grew up" part...I just don't buy the "can't help it" part myself.

Loki

[mixtupcpl]

Has she ever confronted him on his behavior? I think she needs to sit down and tell him that his behavior is selfish and hurtful and ask if what he's looking for is for her to leave him and take the kids. Ask him what he feels is missing that drives him to be so self centered.

She can also let him know that she can be selfish just as easily, but she doesn't for the good of the family. Is she open to the idea of swinging? Does she have any jealousy issues with him? If its something she would be open to, at some point, she should bring it up. I still think that his behavior may be stemming from frustrations that have been building over the years. It's a big shift in behavior that you're describing and some of it goes to core personality. It's just not the type of change that happens for no reason.

You say that both of you have tried to advise both of them... But what did that entail really? If this guy had been a jerk from day one, I'd say she should chalk it up to a mistake and find the strength to cut it off, but the fact that this guy has sort of devolved to what he is today makes me think that the situation is worth working on.

[CallMeLoki]

Good questions, Mix. I really think the thing that killed their connection was having kids. They both wanted kids, but to her the kids are quite important human beings, while he's vaguely aware there are some small people who live in their house. Before kids, they were always doing something (he's one of those people who is either busy doing some activity or sleeping, nothing in between). When you have kids, you have to do things with your children. He doesn't get that...he does the same things he's always done (plus a few more hobbies that have accumulated) leaving her to pretty much take care of the kids plus everything else. He works and plays, that's mostly it.

When she was a week or two shy of 9 months pregnant with their first child, he went away on a ski trip 4-5 hours away with a bunch of folks...he first said he was going for only one night, then called to say he was staying the whole weekend instead. She could have given birth at any time, but he didn't care, he had a weekend ski party to go to (with lots of non-pregnant women). When the baby was coming, he started to garner up folks to come party in a camper in the hospital parking lot. Luckily, folks with common sense stopped him. "It's the birth of your child, not a wild party."

Scroll forward about 7 - 8 years of this type of behavior to now. A few weeks ago, he invited a friend over to have dinner with them, she asked him to pick up some fish to grill while she took the kids clothes shopping with her (so he could spend the afternoon working on his jet ski's), he called and asked her to get the fish because he was at the lake riding the jet ski and had run out of time...and asked her to drive across town to get a case of motor oil while she was at it . Us guys ended up out that night, and had tossed out the idea of going to a strip bar. He asked me if I would ask my wife to lie to his wife about him going (he knows we tell each other everything)...I told him "no", and said "Dude, your wife is already pissed at you...why don't we not make it worse by just skipping the strip bar?" He still wanted to go though.

He's pissed me off from time to time also, usually over being ridiculously frugal. He once chewed me out over leaving a light on in their basement. I took out a quarter and said "Here, I'm going to lease the light bulb and it's electricity from you so I can leave it on for 3 months." He took it, and I guarantee you he turned the light off when I wasn't there. He's chewed quite a few folks out about leaving lights on, and other ridiculous things. He attempts to keep the AC on 80 in the summer and 60 in the winter, and his wife will simply change it each time she walks past it. I've mentioned that he asked my wife to sleep with him...I think it's a pretty safe assumption that he's asked every female who happens be around to sleep with him.

I could go on for pages here, but it's pointless to do that. You get the idea. He's a true irritating pain in the ass to most people who have to associate with him. I actually do usually feel quite sorry for him (he just didn't used to be nearly as bad)...very few people actually want to hang out with him, and he continues to alienate friends. Many just tolerate him because they like his wife. This won't change I'm afraid...it's part of his personality, and based on the 17 years or so I've known him, I've only seen him get worse. I can't imagine what he'll be like 17 years from now. I'm pretty laid back and I couldn't live with him, I'd be ready to kill him in a week. I honestly don't know how she does it, short of having the patience and tolerance of a saint. If I acted like this, my wife would have kicked my ass out years ago. (And if she acted like that, I'd kick her out too.)

She's talked to him many times and told him what she wants and needs, which to me sounds like pretty simple and reasonable stuff. All he needs is sex and all of his free time to spend how he chooses, that's pretty much it. He'll listen to her, say "OK honey, I'll do what you ask", then just continue doing what he's always done. Nothing happens. I can understand her mounting frustration. One day, she's gonna blow, and I'm sure we'll be able to see the mushroom cloud from the 7 miles away where we live.

Loki

[PB&J]

"So, within that, what is your scale for how much you share? Do you share 100% of your feelings about your encounter partner with your spouse, even if you knew it would be hurtful to your spouse? For instance, if you started to feel "in-love" with a swing partner, would you tell your spouse you felt that way, or no? Would you wait and just see if the feeling goes away by itself, or if you can reduce your own emotional attachment? And is there deceit in that, or no? (And I realize you probably have to answer "yes I would tell my spouse" if your spouse participates in this forum as well, so you really don't even need to answer this question here...it's just posed for discussion's sake.)"

I can honestly say that in a year of swinging there is nothing that I cannot share with my husband. He's not a forum reader unless I point something out to him, but it wouldn't matter, because we share everything. Our "swinger mail" is a joint account, our memberships on all sites is joint. If I text a playmate, I tell him what we chatted about. This is a mutual adventure.

[PB&J]

As stated above by PB&J, some deceit is justified (pre-agreed upon in the above case) and some deceit is not, and it depends on the situation.

However, you are talking about deceit between spouses, and I stated unequivocally that deceit between spouses is NEVER justified. Don't misquote me.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by PB&J

As stated above by PB&J, some deceit is justified (pre-agreed upon in the above case) and some deceit is not, and it depends on the situation.

However, you are talking about deceit between spouses, and I stated unequivocally that deceit between spouses is NEVER justified. Don't misquote me.

You did indeed...my mistake.

Never say never though. If a married couple said "let's each do our own thing, I don't want to know about yours, and I won't tell you about mine...deal?" and they both agreed to that arrangement, then in my mind the deceit would be justified since it follows their agreement. True?

Loki

[Alura]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

Never say never though.

Rarely say never, Loki.

If a married couple said "let's each do our own thing, I don't want to know about yours, and I won't tell you about mine...deal?" and they both agreed to that arrangement, then in my mind the deceit would be justified since it follows their agreement. True?

Loki

Justified? Since the terms of marriage must be determined by the spouses, why not?

Such an agreement would surely be the beginning of the end.

Mr. Alura

[slevin]

Originally Posted by Alura

Such an agreement would surely be the beginning of the end.

Mr. Alura

Indeed, a pact of "you can fuck other women, I just don't want to hear about it" smacks of a woman who has been cheated on in the past. It also suggests some trust issues and suggests she is expecting you to cheat (or testing for your reaction, even subconsciously).

For us, when we are talking to playmates if we are uncomfortable with their situation, we just won't play with them. Even if they are completely comfortable with their situation. We talked to a girl who was married and had permission from her husband to play on her own. After talking with both of them we just didn't get a good feeling about their situation; something didn't feel quite right. So we backed away, never played with her. We maybe missed out on a great time, but we've learned to go with out gut the hard-way and now we'll follow our gut feelings even if our heads, hearts or genitals tell us something else. If someone told us they had permission but their spouse doesn't want to know about it, we'd back away immediately (male or female).

If my wife suggested that to me, I'd tell her I wasn't comfortable with that situation; we'd talk about it and sort out how to deal with it openly. If we couldn't talk about it openly together, then we're not ready for swinging or that "don't ask, don't tell" scenario.

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by Alura

If a married couple said "let's each do our own thing, I don't want to know about yours, and I won't tell you about mine...deal?" and they both agreed to that arrangement, then in my mind the deceit would be justified since it follows their agreement.
Justified? Since the terms of marriage must be determined by the spouses, why not?

Such an agreement would surely be the beginning of the end.

OK, now you are FINALLY understanding the situation better. She sat him down a year or two ago and said "Maybe we should just live as room-mates?" (which to me sure sounds like exactly what I said above, after I actually stopped to think about it.) He didn't want that and made all sorts of promises about how he would change. As far as I can see, he hasn't kept a single one of them. Like I said before, I think you could say she's already "emotionally divorced" and is (for the most part) trying to just keep peace for the sake of their kids. She still tries to get them back to a better situation, which I see as pretty damned noble of her...but I think she also realizes that it'll probably never happen.

BUT...I don't think that "room-mates only" situation would be good for her. He'd take full advantage of it, and wouldn't feel at all ashamed to bring women home in front of his kids I'm sure. She would be the discrete one about it, if for no other reason than to shield her kids from any of it. I really don't think that would work out well for her. But then, in all fairness, she could have 10 dates while he's still begging for one, so who knows...maybe it would give him a swift kick in the ass and a serious wake-up call. I dunno...like I keep saying, it's their marriage and their decisions. If she popped up and said "I'll go, hubby and I have reached an agreement that makes it fair to him, and you don't need to know the details or talk to hiim about it", I'd fully accept that. I wouldn't trust this as true with some woman I met at a swinger's club or online or anyone else, but with her I would trust it, and so would my wife. Her and I have "watched each other's backs" many times over the years, and there's simply no reason for me to not trust anything she tells me.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by slevin

Indeed, a pact of "you can fuck other women, I just don't want to hear about it" smacks of a woman who has been cheated on in the past. It also suggests some trust issues and suggests she is expecting you to cheat (or testing for your reaction, even subconsciously).

Yes, it does, doesn't it? I know he's gotten into some sexual play without her (without inviting her, without asking her permission, he just went and jumped in...she heard him in another room and busted him)...in fact, he told me about it rather than her (I think she was too embarrassed by it). She was hurt and pissed at him. He couldn't understand why she was pissed at him (or, maybe pretended he didn't understand?) All I could say was "Dude, what the fuck were you thinking? I don't blame her, I'd be pissed at you too."

Knowing him and how he's always on the lookup for a "piece of ass", It's hard to believe that he hasn't had some strange without telling her. (And yes, I know that by itself does NOT justify me taking his wife away for a weekend.) He wouldn't tell me because he knows I'd have to tell her. And I don't want to tell her that I think this either, it would feel to me like I was using unfair leverage to influence her to take off with me for a weekend. But, I have a feeling I don't have to tell her I think that...I'm sure she already thinks it too.

Again, it's not my job in life to make things fair for them, though. But, I know the kind of morals this woman has...if she says "yes" to me, she's definitely got a concrete reason to say "yes"...she would say "no" if she did not. Ya with me yet?

And to answer an earlier question..."no" I don't think this woman would ever be a regular swinger, it would just be totally out of character for her. I think she'd go away for a weekend with me just because we've had such a long relationship and have always demonstrated to each other that we care what happens to each other, and will generally help each other in any way we reasonably can. So, ya know, even if she's says "no" for herself, it wouldn't surprise me at all if she didn't make it a point to introduce me and Sif to other women that she knows, some of which already swing.

Loki

[CallMeLoki]

Originally Posted by CallMeLoki

...Us guys ended up out that night, and had tossed out the idea of going to a strip bar. He asked me if I would ask my wife to lie to his wife about him going (he knows we tell each other everything)...I told him "no", and said "Dude, your wife is already pissed at you...why don't we not make it worse by just skipping the strip bar?" He still wanted to go though.

OK, to the poster who called me a "predator" and a "selfish man"...here's an example of the opposite (and believe me, there's hundreds of other examples). I could have easily "set him up" to be in even bigger trouble. I could have said "sure, let's go!", gotten him drunk, paid a stripper $500 to just screw him or give him a blowjob in a booth, told my wife all about it, and let her "accidentally" tell his wife. Guess what? I advised him to do what would keep peace FOR THEM, not what might serve my own selfish interests. And believe me, I've had plenty of opportunities over the years to lead him into trouble that I could have taken advantage of for myself, but I chose not to. One part of me is "tired of being good" in this particular regard.

Loki

[rpu3]

OK, now you are FINALLY understanding the situation better.

Jeez Louise... honestly, all this discussion about their situation and getting "us" to understand it is just getting redundant and pointless when the bottom line for the majority is that deceit and lying for ANY of the involved parties is not a hallmark of either swinging or an open marriage.

It just seems like there are more ethical ways of getting your freak on, whether it be swinging or open marriage, without potentially hurting another relationship, no matter how fucked up the other relationship is. And certainly without pages of explanation and justification and trying to get "us" to "FINALLY" understand it or getting us on your side about this particular scenario.

As hard as it can be for a guy in an open marriage, my spouse has managed to meet women without the deceit or cheating angles. It can be done. Then again, neither one of us need to fuck someone else so that we have to get into potential drama or to hurt others to do so. We are fine on our own, so we don't need to create bad karma or hurt anyone else in opening our marriage or swinging.

To the newbies that may be reading this thread: I hope it is clear that there are many ways to approach swinging and/or an open marriage. This thread is just one exposition of an approach to an alternative marriage/sexual lifestyle. There are a few of us open marriage/not only swingers types on the Board if one wants to check out a different perspective or implementation.

Just my .02, and I know everyone else's mileage will likely vary.

[mixtupcpl]

Originally Posted by Alura

Rarely say never, Loki.



Justified? Since the terms of marriage must be determined by the spouses, why not?

Such an agreement would surely be the beginning of the end.

Mr. Alura

Not necessarily... This is what Mrs Mix and I had for the past decade or so. LOL. Of course we both realize it was a mistake. And it was my idea originally (the don't tell part) Not sure what I was really thinking back then, but I think I was kind of denying my own feelings on all of it.

If the foundation is strong, you can move past mistakes like this. If it isnt, the end is waiting around a corner anyway.

Loki,

Their relationship is in really bad shape. I have a few friends that are similar to what you're describing. One is now divorced and actually somewhat of a different guy with the new girl, the others are still together and she remains miserable (although she's found a way to tolerate)

It may very well be that there is no way clear for the two of them and that he really just needs to be divorced.

That leaves you with the question of whether or not this is a situation you want to become deeply involved in. Now you are peripherally involved in it. Many of our vanilla friends have lousy marriages. We're involved because they bitch to us individually. We give advice here and there, but its rough because our situation is just so diametrically opposite theirs its like we're in different universes (and none of them know our deal either)

Would we want to insert ourselves MORE deeply into their crap? HELL and NO. And these are CLOSE friends also (wifes best friend actually comes to mind)

Its a sad situation, but what she needs isnt the weekend away. What she needs is to file for divorce to give him a REAL kick in the ass.

And as many have pointed out... She can file CLEAN with him being a cheating, neglectful husband and her being a dutiful wife and mother who puts up with his BS. She'll get everything.

[mixtupcpl]

Originally Posted by rpu3

As hard as it can be for a guy in an open marriage, my spouse has managed to meet women without the deceit or cheating angles. It can be done.

*snip*

To the newbies that may be reading this thread: I hope it is clear that there are many ways to approach swinging and/or an open marriage. This thread is just one exposition of an approach to an alternative marriage/sexual lifestyle. There are a few of us open marriage/not only swingers types on the Board if one wants to check out a different perspective or implementation.

Just my .02, and I know everyone else's mileage will likely vary.

Going to disagree here, RPU. I think this thread is very important because I think newbies *should* be made aware that an open marriage can lead to problems that "traditional" swinging tends not to.

Yes yes of course there can be problems with another couple in couples swinging. And of course one half of the couple may not be fully on board.

But an open marriage continually exposes you to singles and the single world dynamic. The chance of running into a cheater is astronomical. Also, for a guy, it's really pretty much impossible unless you either pose as a cheater or pretend to be single. Sorry, but thats been my reality and the reality of every other guy I know in this type of arrangement. I'm happy for Mr. RPU that it has been different, but for me, the easiest way to find a single girl is to be on the road, at a bar, wearing a wedding ring. And for all I know, those girls can be married too and lying right? The whole thing is just uncomfortable.

I'd also be a liar if I said that over the years Mrs. Mix and I hadnt had entanglements with people who were in bad marriages and cheating. It wasnt as deliberate as what Loki is describing, nor was it people we had a long prior history with, but I do realize that the potential IS there. Just as it is for vanilla singles. We all know that women can line up ARMIES of genuinely single guys (although most of them will likely not be worth the time) whether they say they have "permission" or not. Actually, "permission" tends to help for the female half, which says alot about the male brain. Lots of single guys get off purely on the thought of "getting over" on a "loser husband". That said, even for the ladies, the chance of getting involved with a cheater is very high when you are both off alone play acting as singles.

So personally, I think the "open marriage", "lets just go find our own play mates" approach *does* deserve some cautionary tales and this one is a doozy. To me, any curious newbies SHOULD avoid this variation on all of this and just try playing as a couple.

Just my opinion on this...